Why Age of Empires 2 is still growing(rockpapershotgun.com)
rockpapershotgun.com
Why Age of Empires 2 is still growing
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/12/28/age-of-empires-2-forgotten-empires/
30 comments
Thanks for sharing! I actually thought this was going to point to 0ad [1]...which because it deals with ancient warfare, I had just assumed it was sparked by AOE2 community. Good to know of openage.
Out of curiosity...how much do you still play AOE2? I guess that would implicitly indicate how far along openage is...but I was also interested just how much someone has to love a game to rebuild it from scratch :)
[1]https://github.com/0ad/0ad
Out of curiosity...how much do you still play AOE2? I guess that would implicitly indicate how far along openage is...but I was also interested just how much someone has to love a game to rebuild it from scratch :)
[1]https://github.com/0ad/0ad
I'm not playing it much, i'm actually pretty bad at it, but it's totally fun. We mainly play aoc in wine, which works very well on local LANs but is crappy via internet, same without wine, which was the initial spark.
Nobody had suceeded in creating a clone with potential at 2013, so we took chances and are still trying to do it the "right" way.
I think the last year I played about 40h of aoc, so actually not that much, and haven't played aoe:hd yet.
Nobody had suceeded in creating a clone with potential at 2013, so we took chances and are still trying to do it the "right" way.
I think the last year I played about 40h of aoc, so actually not that much, and haven't played aoe:hd yet.
Does anyone have an OS X build of this?
It appears you can build here
https://github.com/SFTtech/openage/blob/master/doc/building....
Is openage ready enough to allow you to actually play games?
AoE 2 in likely the most engaging strategy game I've ever played. I got rather involved in it in college, but was surprised that there were certain "basic strategies" that one had to follow to hope to even survive (e.g. getting to castle age within a certain time for a certain civilization). With the voobly client, its possible to challenge aoe players across the world for a game, and its kinda awesome to cooperate and deal with the mess that comes from playing an RTS game at that level.
Probably true for most strategy games, but aoe seems light enough (requirements wise) and has a great enough balance (and the fact that the game is almost freely available worldwide) enables anyone with a computer with a decent internet connection to play.
Probably true for most strategy games, but aoe seems light enough (requirements wise) and has a great enough balance (and the fact that the game is almost freely available worldwide) enables anyone with a computer with a decent internet connection to play.
> I got rather involved in it in college, but was surprised that there were certain "basic strategies" that one had to follow to hope to even survive (e.g. getting to castle age within a certain time for a certain civilization).
This is always going to be true for a strategy game. Heck it's probably true in general for any competitive game that that there are certain things that you just have to do.
The more competitive the game is, the more obvious this is (which is why you see more people complaining about this kind of thing for Starcraft than AoE), but it's still always present, lurking in the background.
This is always going to be true for a strategy game. Heck it's probably true in general for any competitive game that that there are certain things that you just have to do.
The more competitive the game is, the more obvious this is (which is why you see more people complaining about this kind of thing for Starcraft than AoE), but it's still always present, lurking in the background.
That same realization made me feel very naive, especially since I'd grown up in the competitive Quake LAN scene.
My house mate and I would play AoE2 vs the AI as a change of pace. We'd done this enough to get a basic understanding of the game and I would have considered us "pretty good" at the game. I recall the moment when I stumbled onto MrFixitOnline and learned about the concept of Villager Seconds and just how important it was to get that 2nd boar in the very early game.
I have a vivid memory of yelling across the hallway to my buddy, "I just found out that we're terrible at this game and no nothing at all".
My house mate and I would play AoE2 vs the AI as a change of pace. We'd done this enough to get a basic understanding of the game and I would have considered us "pretty good" at the game. I recall the moment when I stumbled onto MrFixitOnline and learned about the concept of Villager Seconds and just how important it was to get that 2nd boar in the very early game.
I have a vivid memory of yelling across the hallway to my buddy, "I just found out that we're terrible at this game and no nothing at all".
Each entry in that series tells you something about the history of gaming at the time. AOE1 made some great innovations in order to handle "1500 archers at 28.8kbps."[0] Conquerers was the dawn of expansions and ultimately DLC.
AoE Online had a bunch of interesting ideas, letting players customize their civilizations ala MMORPGs or MOBAs. Interesting quests too, and good coop for the story mode, something I've always wanted RTS games to pull off better.
They did not need to make it an actual MMO with central servers though, and because it never attracted a playerbase / they couldn't monetize it, it was killed off (meaning completely unplayable) in a pretty short time frame. This seems pretty typical for games of today though, tying them to a central server for an unnecessary social or data tracking layer, dooming them to die in a few years when the income slows down a bit.
AOE2 was privileged to come from a time where installing a game meant you owned it, and you could probably play it with your kids. Maybe you could even take it apart and rebuild it better. We're living in a world now where a lot of games are ephemeral, the world may have no idea what it's like to play them after a few years, once the servers are shut down to run something newer.
[0] http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131503/1500_archers_on...
AoE Online had a bunch of interesting ideas, letting players customize their civilizations ala MMORPGs or MOBAs. Interesting quests too, and good coop for the story mode, something I've always wanted RTS games to pull off better.
They did not need to make it an actual MMO with central servers though, and because it never attracted a playerbase / they couldn't monetize it, it was killed off (meaning completely unplayable) in a pretty short time frame. This seems pretty typical for games of today though, tying them to a central server for an unnecessary social or data tracking layer, dooming them to die in a few years when the income slows down a bit.
AOE2 was privileged to come from a time where installing a game meant you owned it, and you could probably play it with your kids. Maybe you could even take it apart and rebuild it better. We're living in a world now where a lot of games are ephemeral, the world may have no idea what it's like to play them after a few years, once the servers are shut down to run something newer.
[0] http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131503/1500_archers_on...
Re: owning the game - so very true.
I'm going to date myself here, but I remember picking out the box for AOE2 with my kids at CompUSA. We played that game a lot, and it was a wonderful bonding experience that we still talk about.
I'm going to date myself here, but I remember picking out the box for AOE2 with my kids at CompUSA. We played that game a lot, and it was a wonderful bonding experience that we still talk about.
Oh man, my dad and I went to compUSA all the time when I was growing up. Great memories.
I've played a great deal of AoE2. Here are some comments:
* The two new expansions are nice. The developers have done an excellent job at maintaining the balance of the game and not pushing any outlandish changes. (After all, the game thrives on a nostalgia factor.) However, it's apparent that it comes from a tiny dev studio. Releases are usually littered with bugs and playability issues. This is a great shame, because they manage to garner significant hype and excitement, only for the release day to be somewhat frustrating for most players.
* In fact, due to the small size of the dev team, there usually is a long turnaround period on fixing smaller gameplay issues. This means that most of the more invested players, who are more easily irritated than the casual players, use other, older, more established clients to play the game, where the new expansions are not available. Indeed, the new expansions, while very similar in spirit to the 13-year-old expansions, change the metagame so significantly that at the competitive level, only the 13-year old expansion is played. This deeply fragments the player base. The new expansions, and AoE2 on Steam in general, are mostly played by newcomers.
* It's very difficult to get the advanced players to take the expansions seriously because the competitive scene has been basically unchanged for about fifteen years. As such, the theoretical metagame has been nearly perfected, and the random components in game generation do not make a difference to the point of needing true improvisational play. Competitive players have spent months, if not years, carefully practicing minutely differing iterations of the same game scenarios. I've seen professional players end games over early-game mistakes that an intermediate player might not even notice. I consider it a little similar to chess, in the sense that the metagame/opening theory is so well explored that the game can rarely be considered improvisational, but is more like a ballet performance: an extremely well-studied routine that has to be executed as perfectly as possible (which, by the way, means above 400 actions per minute for a top player). Considering the immense amount of study that has gone into the game, and the even larger amount of practice required to become truly good, it is clear that most competitive players would rather keep spending their time on the old game, as opposed to on the new expansions -- the latter would necessitate a great amount of exploration of new strategies, and a similarly enormous amount of practice.
* The two new expansions are nice. The developers have done an excellent job at maintaining the balance of the game and not pushing any outlandish changes. (After all, the game thrives on a nostalgia factor.) However, it's apparent that it comes from a tiny dev studio. Releases are usually littered with bugs and playability issues. This is a great shame, because they manage to garner significant hype and excitement, only for the release day to be somewhat frustrating for most players.
* In fact, due to the small size of the dev team, there usually is a long turnaround period on fixing smaller gameplay issues. This means that most of the more invested players, who are more easily irritated than the casual players, use other, older, more established clients to play the game, where the new expansions are not available. Indeed, the new expansions, while very similar in spirit to the 13-year-old expansions, change the metagame so significantly that at the competitive level, only the 13-year old expansion is played. This deeply fragments the player base. The new expansions, and AoE2 on Steam in general, are mostly played by newcomers.
* It's very difficult to get the advanced players to take the expansions seriously because the competitive scene has been basically unchanged for about fifteen years. As such, the theoretical metagame has been nearly perfected, and the random components in game generation do not make a difference to the point of needing true improvisational play. Competitive players have spent months, if not years, carefully practicing minutely differing iterations of the same game scenarios. I've seen professional players end games over early-game mistakes that an intermediate player might not even notice. I consider it a little similar to chess, in the sense that the metagame/opening theory is so well explored that the game can rarely be considered improvisational, but is more like a ballet performance: an extremely well-studied routine that has to be executed as perfectly as possible (which, by the way, means above 400 actions per minute for a top player). Considering the immense amount of study that has gone into the game, and the even larger amount of practice required to become truly good, it is clear that most competitive players would rather keep spending their time on the old game, as opposed to on the new expansions -- the latter would necessitate a great amount of exploration of new strategies, and a similarly enormous amount of practice.
Regarding your last point: I really don't like that competitiveness. I don't get the fun in repeating the exact same schedule over and over again just to finish the game as quick as possible. I would rather prefer to build a nice city first and take it slow, but with strategy games that almost never works in multiplayer, which is why I never play them. I don't really get that feeling with FPS games, they seem to be different every single time (although for games such as counter strike that may not be true).
I can totally see where you're coming from but I think it's a differing view on what it fundamentally means to 'build a nice city'.
In this competitive arena, your current 'city' is the culmination of each game you've played under a certain set of meta-rules self-imposed in conjunction with the nuances of playing as a particular civilization.
While an opponent may only see it for a fleeting moment, your actual, current city is how, given specific starting conditions, under the constraints above, your pre-game-plan and ruleset have been tweaked and optimized to the point where they are not actively in need of changing.
The only resource that really matters is time. A nice city is one that cannot be defeated by an opposing 'city' in any arbitrary amount of time and frees you up to focus on the more reaction-dependent offensive strategy.
edit: Experience is mostly from Empire Earth, YMMV
In this competitive arena, your current 'city' is the culmination of each game you've played under a certain set of meta-rules self-imposed in conjunction with the nuances of playing as a particular civilization.
While an opponent may only see it for a fleeting moment, your actual, current city is how, given specific starting conditions, under the constraints above, your pre-game-plan and ruleset have been tweaked and optimized to the point where they are not actively in need of changing.
The only resource that really matters is time. A nice city is one that cannot be defeated by an opposing 'city' in any arbitrary amount of time and frees you up to focus on the more reaction-dependent offensive strategy.
edit: Experience is mostly from Empire Earth, YMMV
Age of Mythology is still one of my favorite games ever. What made it fun is not the real time strategy, but the custom scenario maps that people could create. This wasn't just the terrain, but the mechanics of the maps themselves. It was part "programming" as well as part design.
The multiplayer servers are still online, but the certificate expired years ago. You can force AOM to connect to them with fiddler2, but you have to have an existing account.
But now there is the steam re-release, and of course Voobly/GameRanger for the original release, but the steam version is full of bugs that have not been fixed in over a year.
The multiplayer servers are still online, but the certificate expired years ago. You can force AOM to connect to them with fiddler2, but you have to have an existing account.
But now there is the steam re-release, and of course Voobly/GameRanger for the original release, but the steam version is full of bugs that have not been fixed in over a year.
AoM is still my favorite game of all time. Its hard to find a fault with and, and still to this day I can end up spending hours and hours on it to no end.
The graphics are pretty awesome. I know there have been a lot of improvements to graphics over the years, but for me AoM's colors and graphics just seem so nice to look at. When it first came out, it probably had the best graphics of any RTS game.
The campaign was phenomenal. I can't remember how many times I've finished and then re-finished the campaign.
So I can't wait for the new expansion, "The Tales of the Dragon" to come out, which feature the Chinese and their deities.
The graphics are pretty awesome. I know there have been a lot of improvements to graphics over the years, but for me AoM's colors and graphics just seem so nice to look at. When it first came out, it probably had the best graphics of any RTS game.
The campaign was phenomenal. I can't remember how many times I've finished and then re-finished the campaign.
So I can't wait for the new expansion, "The Tales of the Dragon" to come out, which feature the Chinese and their deities.
Slightly off topic but one of my best musical decisions of 2015 was to purchase the AoM soundtrack...amazing study/writing ambient music with just the right amount of nostalgia.
If you still have the game CD you can find the files there. For the rest of us...Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003TL16O6?ie=UTF8&qid=&re...
If you still have the game CD you can find the files there. For the rest of us...Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003TL16O6?ie=UTF8&qid=&re...
My wife and I played AOM obsessively, it's such a great game. There's a small time commitment, the AI had just the right levels of difficulty to help you work on your rts skills while still having a blast.
I always felt like the Atlanteans were slightly overpowered, but other than that the balance was pretty good.
The steam version is good but I kinda wish there were an update with low system requirements that fixed some of the bugs in the current version. It's the best LAN game ever.
I always felt like the Atlanteans were slightly overpowered, but other than that the balance was pretty good.
The steam version is good but I kinda wish there were an update with low system requirements that fixed some of the bugs in the current version. It's the best LAN game ever.
I think the Atlantean's and their villagers that don't require drop-sites combined with their human infantry is overpowered.
> This wasn't just the terrain, but the mechanics of the maps themselves. It was part "programming" as well as part design.
This was what I loved about Starcraft: Brood War and Warcraft 3. Warcraft 3 is where the game DOTA came from, and pretty much spawned the entire MOBA genre.
That, and these map creation utilities (including the one from AoM) was what got me into computer programming.
This was what I loved about Starcraft: Brood War and Warcraft 3. Warcraft 3 is where the game DOTA came from, and pretty much spawned the entire MOBA genre.
That, and these map creation utilities (including the one from AoM) was what got me into computer programming.
I prefer AoM too, it's IMHO the best RTS game of the AoE series. It was the first 3D game of the series, nevertheless had a very nice graphics. The AI is certainly the best of the series. And the random map generator was great too. (as well as the music, etc)
AoE3 was great too (superb graphics and physics engine - very nice even today), but I wasn't so fond of the timeframe and several design decisions (8 tower limit, no random maps, the trains concept.
AoE 2 has a buggy AI, it gives up way too often. It was an improvement in every respect to AoE1.
AoE 1 was great for it's time. Less units than modern games, so every unit was worth more. One could create unlimited amount of towers - I played tower defence style gameplay in AoE 1 in 1997.
AoE3 was great too (superb graphics and physics engine - very nice even today), but I wasn't so fond of the timeframe and several design decisions (8 tower limit, no random maps, the trains concept.
AoE 2 has a buggy AI, it gives up way too often. It was an improvement in every respect to AoE1.
AoE 1 was great for it's time. Less units than modern games, so every unit was worth more. One could create unlimited amount of towers - I played tower defence style gameplay in AoE 1 in 1997.
AoE 1 endgame was basically just building 50 heavy catapults and a bunch of towers.
AoE 2 at least had fairly compelling multiplayer with a variety of options. Although town centre rushes were a dominant tactic in the original version...
AoE 2 at least had fairly compelling multiplayer with a variety of options. Although town centre rushes were a dominant tactic in the original version...
I almost exclusively play RTS in single player mode on random generated maps.
And the AI is very good in AoE/AoM series (well except for the AI bugs in AoE2, in both the original as well as in the "HD" re-release). Whereas other RTS games (e.g. EmpireEarth) cheat a lot, that's not very rewarding. The developer at least tried to create an AI that doesn't cheat with resources.
Playing an RTS for several hours in multiplay against friends (LAN) is fun (as long both are almost equal). Internet gameplay isn't that fun, when someone suddenly leaves the game, or just doing a common rush strategy. Nowadays some of them found their niche with League of Legends, etc.
For me, AI gameplay in single player is more fun.
And the AI is very good in AoE/AoM series (well except for the AI bugs in AoE2, in both the original as well as in the "HD" re-release). Whereas other RTS games (e.g. EmpireEarth) cheat a lot, that's not very rewarding. The developer at least tried to create an AI that doesn't cheat with resources.
Playing an RTS for several hours in multiplay against friends (LAN) is fun (as long both are almost equal). Internet gameplay isn't that fun, when someone suddenly leaves the game, or just doing a common rush strategy. Nowadays some of them found their niche with League of Legends, etc.
For me, AI gameplay in single player is more fun.
BTW, if you don't like the original AI, it's quite easy to replace it with custom AI scripts made by other players. There is a whole collection of them here: http://aok.heavengames.com/blacksmith/lister.php?category=ai
If you're a fan of age of empires 2, you should definitely try 0ad http://play0ad.com it's open source and multiplatform
0ad is excellent for quite a number of reasons, first is the history it teaches you, the other is you can grab it @ https://github.com/0ad/0ad and https://github.com/0admods and really tinker w/ the AI and build meshes,models w/ Blender, +1 for 0ad
Just got the game :D
I'm curious though, where did you find the history lessons? The campaign doesn't seem to have been implemented yet.
I'm curious though, where did you find the history lessons? The campaign doesn't seem to have been implemented yet.
Thank you! I'm definitely not salivating at getting to play a new Mac RTS with alpha-stage multiplayer, not at all!! :D
Also, if you can, take the time to donate if you like it.
One of the greatest breakthroughs of my life was realizing that you only had to type "cheese steak jimmy's" once, then ctrl-c, then ctrl-v as much as you want. It was a great day.
Strangely I am responsible for the name of this cheat code. It's an accidental-turned-intentional misnomer for a place we used to eat a lot during Age2 development called Fred's Downtown Philly.
If you have written up any memories/folk lore from your days building this game, I would love to read it (and I'm sure many others here would too).
I have never written anything up personally, but I'm sure there is some stuff out there to be found.
Get any two former Ensemble employees together, possibly buy them a beer, and you will almost certainly get some stories that sound apocryphal but probably actually happened :)
Get any two former Ensemble employees together, possibly buy them a beer, and you will almost certainly get some stories that sound apocryphal but probably actually happened :)
Ensemble was a truly great studio. I hear people rag on AoE3 but I personally don't think Ensemble ever missed. Once. Between you and Westwood, RTS was pretty great for a long time.
Whatever you did for them, thanks for some really fun entertainment across many years of my own life.
Whatever you did for them, thanks for some really fun entertainment across many years of my own life.
Thank you for some truly wonderful memories! Back in school, my goal was to join Ensemble Studios. I was really disappointed to hear that it shut down. I'm now in the games industry and I owe it mostly to Age of Empires!
Ensemble employees get free beer from me for life, if I ever get the chance to meet any of you. You guys defined a big part of my childhood, and even today as a young adult I think back to lessons I learned from that game. It made a big impact on me in many ways.
You might be interested in the Age of Kings Postmortem: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131844/postmortem_ense...
It has a lot of behind the scenes details which I found interesting.
It has a lot of behind the scenes details which I found interesting.
Thanks, I enjoyed reading that
I love to see/hear/read little behind-the-scene tidbits like this about the development of the great games of yore. It lifts the veil (or, the "fog of war" HAHA [sorry]) oh so slightly and lets you in on how the magic was made. Geez... I miss the 90's. I feel old now, but thank you for the skinny on that cheat code.
Rock on! This is a perfect example why i love hn! Thx 4 the comment :-p
That's the cheat code for 1000 food[0] for anyone curious.
[0] - http://www.neoseeker.com/aoe2-conquerors/cheats/pc/
[0] - http://www.neoseeker.com/aoe2-conquerors/cheats/pc/
Indeed, alongside lumberjack, robin hood and rock on. Even in LAN party multi player mode we used to allow these cheats, as it made the game more fun. Players would build enormous defensives with those resources until the mother of all battles would conclude the game.
howdoyouturnthison
I still play a ton of Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds, which is just a Star Wars re-skin of AoE2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Galactic_Battlegrou...
So this is the game I played years ago. Thanks. I found demo of this game on one of the cd that came with Digit mag.
you might like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGvorYrXyxU
Star Wars: Galaxy at War Mod - world at war mod
Star Wars: Galaxy at War Mod - world at war mod
AoE II HD [1] and AoE II HD: The Forgotten [2] are currently on 80% discount holiday sale on Steam.
Offer ends in 29 hours and 15 minutes as of this writing.
[1]: http://store.steampowered.com/app/221380
[2]: http://store.steampowered.com/app/239550
Offer ends in 29 hours and 15 minutes as of this writing.
[1]: http://store.steampowered.com/app/221380
[2]: http://store.steampowered.com/app/239550
AoE is great. I was so happy after they released the HD release. The bad part is that there is no native MacOSX version available :(
As I'm reading this my 14 year old daughter and my 12 year old son are playing a game while discussing strategies and having a blast.
The thing I like so much about it are the different civilizations, which come with their own unique language and music.
It's a minor detail and helps a bit with the immersion, compared to just a simple paint job to differentiate between them.
TIL people sitll play AoE 2! I used to play this game all the time at the all-night LAN parties my friends hosted. It was great because the graphics weren't so crazy that literally anyone could play it, so it always commanded the largest amounts of players, other than Counter-Strike: Source.
Played a LOT of AOE2 back in the day.
However, I was always more of a fan of AoE1 RoR expansion. Anyone else? Something about the brutal simplicity of it, made it much more fun for me and my friends?
Would love to see that "HD'ified"!
However, I was always more of a fan of AoE1 RoR expansion. Anyone else? Something about the brutal simplicity of it, made it much more fun for me and my friends?
Would love to see that "HD'ified"!
Oh yes, the villagers beating enemies with huge bones/clubs and the famous wololo :-)
I loved the original Age of Empires (+ Rise of Rome), I remember asking a friend who was lucky enough to have a CD writer at the time to copy it for me; probably the first game I ever pirated.
AOE2 HD on Steam is great fun, I've really enjoyed playing it over LAN with friends (and online, although the competition is much harder).
Unfortunately a reasonable percentage of games run into unrecoverable issues with the netcode - clients lagging out and going out of sync. It's a real shame and I hope the devs get some time to focus on this, especially now that 2 expansions are out.
AOE2 HD on Steam is great fun, I've really enjoyed playing it over LAN with friends (and online, although the competition is much harder).
Unfortunately a reasonable percentage of games run into unrecoverable issues with the netcode - clients lagging out and going out of sync. It's a real shame and I hope the devs get some time to focus on this, especially now that 2 expansions are out.
As someone who plays AoE2 from time to time on Voobly, I consider this and the HD versions to be complete separate games, simply for the fact that said expansions are for the HD release but not the original one (original mod aside). So people like me are by these releases completely unaffected.
Neat. Man, I'd love to see this happen to Starcraft 1.
It's happening. And not only for StarCraft =)
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/careers/posting.html?id...
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/careers/posting.html?id...
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/careers/posting.html?id...
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/careers/posting.html?id...
Also for Command & Conquer: http://openra.net (currently C&C (Tiberian Dawn), C&C: Red Alert, and Dune 2000 with Tiberian Sun on the way).
And Red Alert 2: YR fans might find Ares [1] interesting: it's an engine-enhancement that fixes a ton of funky bugs [2] and enables loads of new functionality, and popular mods like Mental Omega and D-Day take advantage of that functionality in interesting ways.
(I used to be the lead developer of Ares for several years, the amount of reverse-engineering and C++ voodoo involved was awesome.)
1: http://ares.strategy-x.com/
2: https://ares-developers.github.io/Ares-docs/bugfixes/type1/i...
(I used to be the lead developer of Ares for several years, the amount of reverse-engineering and C++ voodoo involved was awesome.)
1: http://ares.strategy-x.com/
2: https://ares-developers.github.io/Ares-docs/bugfixes/type1/i...
I am a fan of C&C Renegade (the concept of 3D shooter and RTS gameplay is so awesome) and C&C Generals. Would love to see some community projects around them as well. Something like 0 A.D. for C&C Renegade and Generals (mind you both featured the same game engine)
[deleted]
Checkout Renegade X http://www.renegade-x.com/. Amazing remake of the original C&C Renegade. I still play every now and then (ShotgunJH)
Wow. That is good news. Those games are some of the ones I've had the most fun on.
No mention of Warcraft 2 in those job postings? That's disappointing.
No, but there is someone who's basically made a 'modern' version of War2 in the browser: http://www.littlewargame.com/
I'm aware of the postings, but in I think an interview (maybe at Blizzcon?), Blizzard said that they weren't getting around to actually updating them anytime soon.
I played a lot of aoe I and some 2 as a kid. Nearly 30 now and have not so much time for gaming. But the online streaming community is impressive and the skill level is high. Also there was a 120k tournament last year for a 15 year old game. It's very impressive.
Have been playing AoE on and off for a while now. Still like the game. Wish I had more time to play it.
It has certain playing qualities that hold one's interest over time. Even when compared to other more modern games.
One thing I'd like to see improved is the unit AI, which is frustratingly poor. This would probably annoy some serious multiplayers, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
The HD Edition has a new AI[0] that's much stronger than the old one. It's built by Promiskuitiv and Archon, two well-known AI scripters in the Age of Empires scene :)
[0]: http://steamcommunity.com/app/221380/discussions/1/540744934...
[0]: http://steamcommunity.com/app/221380/discussions/1/540744934...
There are custom (modded) AIs available that you can download. I've heard that the Barbarian AI is meant to be able to give even seasoned players a serious challenge. I've also heard that a much stronger AI has been bundled with the most recent expansion.
I have just started playing AoE2 again. I have some complaints.
The units are so stupid and frustrating. They will casually walk into the range of enemy castles and towers. They will chase units across the map if you don't put them into defensive mode. If you do put them into defensive mode, they can easily be take out by archers without fighting back. They will open gates and let hordes of enemies into your town. They will stand there and continue cutting wood while an enemy army approaches them and kills their coworkers. The monks won't attack units unless you specifically order them to. Etc, etc. It makes parts of the game very tedious and unenjoyable.
The campaigns are similarly tedious. At first it's really fun and challenging, if you have the difficulty right. It's a challenge to figure out how to repel the big attacks and build up very quickly.
But after building up, it's no longer a challenge. And to win, you just need to spend an hour clicking through the enemies base destroying their structures. Even though you basically won an hour ago.
The multiplayer is terrifying. I tried it once and within like 10 minutes my opponent had surrounded my base with cannon towers and trebuchets. I haven't played it since.
The AI scripting is really cool. It's super simple to learn, very easy to modify other people's scripts, and very powerful. You can do a lot with just a few lines of their domain specific language. And you don't need any programming knowledge at all. And it's very extensive. There are tons of variables and functions available that let you do all kinds of things, and it's well documented.
But it's also extremely restricted. You can't do basic things like store variables, compare numbers, etc. There are arbitrary limits on how many conditions you can have in a conditional, how many lines you can have total, etc. They are workable, but I have no idea why they are even there. The only people modifying AI scripts in the first place are probably willing to accept if the game runs a bit slower because of all the extra code they put in it.
There's also no way to speed up the game. You only get "slow", "normal", or "fast". You need to use Cheat Engine to make the game run a hundred times faster. This is necessary for testing those AI scripts, or getting through those tedious offensive parts I mentioned above. They should have just let it be an option in the game.
Same with other variables like population limit, that's restricted to 200 for no reason. If I want a higher limit, I'll accept that the game runs slower. Just let it be an option, even in a hidden menu with a big warning or something. TBF, the new HD edition does let you go up to 500 IIRC.
The units are so stupid and frustrating. They will casually walk into the range of enemy castles and towers. They will chase units across the map if you don't put them into defensive mode. If you do put them into defensive mode, they can easily be take out by archers without fighting back. They will open gates and let hordes of enemies into your town. They will stand there and continue cutting wood while an enemy army approaches them and kills their coworkers. The monks won't attack units unless you specifically order them to. Etc, etc. It makes parts of the game very tedious and unenjoyable.
The campaigns are similarly tedious. At first it's really fun and challenging, if you have the difficulty right. It's a challenge to figure out how to repel the big attacks and build up very quickly.
But after building up, it's no longer a challenge. And to win, you just need to spend an hour clicking through the enemies base destroying their structures. Even though you basically won an hour ago.
The multiplayer is terrifying. I tried it once and within like 10 minutes my opponent had surrounded my base with cannon towers and trebuchets. I haven't played it since.
The AI scripting is really cool. It's super simple to learn, very easy to modify other people's scripts, and very powerful. You can do a lot with just a few lines of their domain specific language. And you don't need any programming knowledge at all. And it's very extensive. There are tons of variables and functions available that let you do all kinds of things, and it's well documented.
But it's also extremely restricted. You can't do basic things like store variables, compare numbers, etc. There are arbitrary limits on how many conditions you can have in a conditional, how many lines you can have total, etc. They are workable, but I have no idea why they are even there. The only people modifying AI scripts in the first place are probably willing to accept if the game runs a bit slower because of all the extra code they put in it.
There's also no way to speed up the game. You only get "slow", "normal", or "fast". You need to use Cheat Engine to make the game run a hundred times faster. This is necessary for testing those AI scripts, or getting through those tedious offensive parts I mentioned above. They should have just let it be an option in the game.
Same with other variables like population limit, that's restricted to 200 for no reason. If I want a higher limit, I'll accept that the game runs slower. Just let it be an option, even in a hidden menu with a big warning or something. TBF, the new HD edition does let you go up to 500 IIRC.
> The multiplayer is terrifying. I tried it once and within like 10 minutes my opponent had surrounded my base with cannon towers and trebuchets. I haven't played it since.
I think the issue is that new players start with a ladder score of 1600, which is WAY too high. As a newcomer (me), it is frustrating because I'll probably lose dozens of games until I finally meet low-ranked newbies that haven't internalised the whole Fast Castle choreography down to the last shortcut. And for players who deserve their score of 1600, it must be equally frustrating to have me on their team and then drag their score down :(
I think the issue is that new players start with a ladder score of 1600, which is WAY too high. As a newcomer (me), it is frustrating because I'll probably lose dozens of games until I finally meet low-ranked newbies that haven't internalised the whole Fast Castle choreography down to the last shortcut. And for players who deserve their score of 1600, it must be equally frustrating to have me on their team and then drag their score down :(
I've also picked up AOE2:HD again and agree with all the frustrating parts you mentioned. Age of Mythology (and AoE III) seems to have much better unit AI, saner move command chaining (shift+click), nicer chaining of research and training, less micro management of villagers (e.g. farms are infinite), visible UI for idle villagers and control groups, yet most of my friends have only played AoE2 in their teens, so that's what we go with the rare times we get together to play.
Going from single player to multiplayer is like going from the pond into the ocean. The real action happens in the ocean, but it is not for the timid. I look at single player as just a tutorial for multiplayer.
Possibly. I don't really want to play against people who have been playing competitively for 16 years. And I like messing around in single player, building cool bases or trying different strategies. Not trying to be as efficient as possible and micromanaging every single unit. Competitive multiplayer games in general have never really been that enjoyable to me.
Ok I went back and tried another game just to see if my first impressions were entirely wrong. This time there were a lot of noob maps and some less skilled players to play against.
I joined a 4v4 map, and while I still didn't do great, I had other players to back me up. I also didn't feel like I was the worst player in the game.
However just as the game was getting interesting (and I was probably about to get crushed), everyone paused the game and kicked me. Possibly because they blamed more for their lag, possibly because I wasn't that good of a player. They didn't say. It was very discouraging.
But it wasn't as bad as I expected it to be, and I might try playing again some time.
I joined a 4v4 map, and while I still didn't do great, I had other players to back me up. I also didn't feel like I was the worst player in the game.
However just as the game was getting interesting (and I was probably about to get crushed), everyone paused the game and kicked me. Possibly because they blamed more for their lag, possibly because I wasn't that good of a player. They didn't say. It was very discouraging.
But it wasn't as bad as I expected it to be, and I might try playing again some time.
What? They kicked you? There is no "kick" functionality once the game begins on steam. What are you talking about?
I have no idea. the game paused and then suddenly i was on the main menu and confused.
The game crashed. You were not kicked. The game is 16 years old, it happens. Much less than it used to, and someday maybe it won't happen at all.
Battle for Middle Earth did that quite well. You could play on a ladder system that paired you up against people with a similar win/loss ratio. A friend and I used to play 2v2 quite a lot. We got to the point where we could comfortably beat 6 AIs and we were OK against people with a little online experience. Occasionally we played against serious people from the forums and got thoroughly destroyed.
It was fun, but beyond casual battles it became too much like exploitation of the engine - e.g. having to destroy farms yourself because you didn't want to give the enemy units experience.
It was fun, but beyond casual battles it became too much like exploitation of the engine - e.g. having to destroy farms yourself because you didn't want to give the enemy units experience.
There are PLENTY of noob games on multiplayer steam. I don't think you're really looking. In fact they make up the majority.
Tl;dr of complaints:
--unit AI does not automatically make optimal decisions to win game for you, you actually have to control your units on a minute-to-minute level and think and pay attention to win.
--"campaigns are boring"
--winning is tedious and takes no effort after you spend an hour building up to the final stages of the game
--people on multiplayer actually know how to play the game beyond the level of someone who has been playing for a day and a half, they beat me, i never played again.
Yeah, if all you're doing is playing single player against AI on low difficult, DUH it's tedious. RTS games were not made to play against the computer. Learn to play properly and get into multiplayer, where the glory and awesomeness never ends.
--unit AI does not automatically make optimal decisions to win game for you, you actually have to control your units on a minute-to-minute level and think and pay attention to win.
--"campaigns are boring"
--winning is tedious and takes no effort after you spend an hour building up to the final stages of the game
--people on multiplayer actually know how to play the game beyond the level of someone who has been playing for a day and a half, they beat me, i never played again.
Yeah, if all you're doing is playing single player against AI on low difficult, DUH it's tedious. RTS games were not made to play against the computer. Learn to play properly and get into multiplayer, where the glory and awesomeness never ends.
I don't agree with your tldr at all.
It's not that the unit AI doesn't "win the game for me", it's that it does very stupid things. It's not that it requires player input, it's that it requires lots of player input. It's tedious.
I didn't say the campaigns were boring. Many of the missions are very slow paced though. The end game is what is boring. A game can go on for hours even after I've basically won.
I have been playing a lot more then a day and a half. I played a ton of it when I was growing up. As well as all the other games in the series. And I have 113 hours on the new steam version. Anyway all I said is that the multiplayer was intimidating to get into, which is true.
>RTS games were not made to play against the computer.
Um yes they were. These games come from an era when not everyone even had internet, let alone fast internet. There was extensive work put into the single player AI, as I mentioned above.
Anyway, I'm not saying the game is bad. Just some specific problems I had with it. Especially coming back to it after many years, it's not really as fun as I remember it being. I prefer Age of Mythology.
It's not that the unit AI doesn't "win the game for me", it's that it does very stupid things. It's not that it requires player input, it's that it requires lots of player input. It's tedious.
I didn't say the campaigns were boring. Many of the missions are very slow paced though. The end game is what is boring. A game can go on for hours even after I've basically won.
I have been playing a lot more then a day and a half. I played a ton of it when I was growing up. As well as all the other games in the series. And I have 113 hours on the new steam version. Anyway all I said is that the multiplayer was intimidating to get into, which is true.
>RTS games were not made to play against the computer.
Um yes they were. These games come from an era when not everyone even had internet, let alone fast internet. There was extensive work put into the single player AI, as I mentioned above.
Anyway, I'm not saying the game is bad. Just some specific problems I had with it. Especially coming back to it after many years, it's not really as fun as I remember it being. I prefer Age of Mythology.
Regarding the AI scripting, do you have good resources that provide a gentle introduction to get started with tweaking it? Also, are there any popular modifications that people make to the AI?
There's a tutorial here: http://aok.heavengames.com/university/other/world-of-ai-scri...
After that, just read the documentation. It's included as an old .doc file called CPSB. Google's cache lets me convert this to HTML if you find that better: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OxOa-k...
There are a bunch of player made AI's here: http://aok.heavengames.com/blacksmith/lister.php?category=ai
There is also an active community of AI scripters. They hold AI competitions and stuff. There is a forum at http://forums.aiscripters.com/ and an IRC channel at #federationofkings on irc.gamesurge.net . I'm sure they'd be happy to help if you have questions.
After that, just read the documentation. It's included as an old .doc file called CPSB. Google's cache lets me convert this to HTML if you find that better: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OxOa-k...
There are a bunch of player made AI's here: http://aok.heavengames.com/blacksmith/lister.php?category=ai
There is also an active community of AI scripters. They hold AI competitions and stuff. There is a forum at http://forums.aiscripters.com/ and an IRC channel at #federationofkings on irc.gamesurge.net . I'm sure they'd be happy to help if you have questions.
One of my favorite strategy games growing up. It also encouraged a healthy interest in history that persists today.
I've wanted to play this on iOS for so long! Very frustrating to see it Windows only still :-( If anyone from MS is here, please please please consider compiling this for iOS, I know a lot of people who would buy it.
I believe OpenAge is cross platform, but sadly most friends all use the version they purchased on Steam.
I believe OpenAge is cross platform, but sadly most friends all use the version they purchased on Steam.
...iOS? Surely you mean OSX. This would be impossible to play on a touch interface.
uh yeah, sorry that was dumb of me :-) Night time brain. Thanks for the correction.
There was a mobile age of empires game made a year or two ago. I heard it was shitty and only vaguely based on age of empires.
I cant edit this any more, but I meant to say OSX. Doh!
I use to play AoE 2 as UConnBBall and wrote for MrFixItOnline. Sadly the website just came down a few years ago. It was an awesome run with that game for me.
Oh! I loved that game as a teenager. Actually, the first one even more so.
I could never get into aoe2 after playing aoe rise of rome for so long.
Check out Feudal Wars. It's really cool.
http://www.feudalwars.net
http://www.feudalwars.net
As an active player since forever, Steam has ruined this game. It's full of bugs from 1999 and a whole lot new ones -- currently the lobby won't list games, you have to use a third party website. There is a pinned thread on Steam's support forums for a variety of bugs that are common to a lot of players (and the solutions don't always work), there are horrendous net issues ("Waiting for players", "Out of sync"), etc. I just don't play on Steam anymore.
Voobly, an unofficial platform similar to Gameranger, + mod community and tournament organizer, has a very active player base, including most of the top players in the game. It has it's own HD patch and several improvements not present in Steam. It's impressive how an unofficial, unsupported, free plataform can be light years ahead of the billionaires at the Valve/Microsoft partnership.
Voobly, an unofficial platform similar to Gameranger, + mod community and tournament organizer, has a very active player base, including most of the top players in the game. It has it's own HD patch and several improvements not present in Steam. It's impressive how an unofficial, unsupported, free plataform can be light years ahead of the billionaires at the Valve/Microsoft partnership.
This is not true. I've been playing for 16 years and now I play multiple times a week on Steam; the lobby certainly DOES list games, that's nonsense, I just loaded it right now. None of the people I play with (quite a few) have the problem you're describing.
The dev team has been constantly improving things and we now see fewer bugs today than at any point in the past, and it's continuing to improve all the time.
Yes, it still out of syncs sometime, but such is life for those of us playing games from '99.
The dev team has been constantly improving things and we now see fewer bugs today than at any point in the past, and it's continuing to improve all the time.
Yes, it still out of syncs sometime, but such is life for those of us playing games from '99.
Number one choice for Erlang ide
https://github.com/SFTtech/openage
It will be the future if you wanna accomplish things the original engine is incapable of doing, especially a sane mod API.
Help us make it more awesome :)