Educated Germans avoid social media(dw.com)
dw.com
Educated Germans avoid social media
http://www.dw.com/en/educated-germans-avoid-social-media/a-18875970
20 comments
As a german I can tell from experience that in Germany it is much more accepted — and quite often even sympathized with — not to have a facebook account than for example in Spain or Brazil. And it makes me proud, if I’m allowed to add that.
Good for you! Is there any reason for this?
Personally, I'm just glad that the stigma of not having a facebook account seems to be mostly gone. The looks I got whenever I said I didn't have one ranged from 'what are you hiding?' to 'you must be a serial killer'.
Sadly, it is still the same with mobile phones. I regularly experience being stigmatized for not having one. But it seems to be getting better. I already met multiple others who don’t have one, either.
I had a dumb phone until this summer when the spring broke. When I told people and showed them my phone, they would stare at me and wonder "You're a techy, and you don't have a phone from this decade?"
Interesting to get to know another person with the same property (I also have no mobile phone and never had any - and the reason is not lack of money or that I'm a luddite). Would you tell me your personal reason(s) why you decided not to have a mobile phone?
Even though later than most others in my surrounding, still, I eventually had a mobile phone. I'm very much into technology and science and there is no lack of money for a mobile phone.
In fact, I do have a device people call a mobile phone, however, I don't use the cellular network. I don't even have a sim card. It's virtually a PDA.
The reason for me to not use the cellular network is threefold. First, I like how one spends more time with the immediate vicinity if there is no way to digitally reach out. Second, I disagree with the widespread collection and storage of connection and location data. I feel nobody has the right to make a social graph of me or track my location. Third, and most important, I want sovereignty about the machines I own. That requires a level of openness in hardware and software which available mobile phones don't have.
In fact, I do have a device people call a mobile phone, however, I don't use the cellular network. I don't even have a sim card. It's virtually a PDA.
The reason for me to not use the cellular network is threefold. First, I like how one spends more time with the immediate vicinity if there is no way to digitally reach out. Second, I disagree with the widespread collection and storage of connection and location data. I feel nobody has the right to make a social graph of me or track my location. Third, and most important, I want sovereignty about the machines I own. That requires a level of openness in hardware and software which available mobile phones don't have.
As a German I don't use Facebook. Most of my friends also don't use Facebook. For me it's just a waste of time and doesn't make sense.
I'm not German and I don't use Facebook either. For the last few years, I've slowly noticed that people who use Facebook only do so because everybody else does and loathe it somewhat, but can't bring themselves to pull the plug because of network effects.
What I found interesting is the study that shows that Facebook depresses people, because all their friends put up their best moments and photos and so seem to have all wonderful lives.
Interesting. Is it that showing is looked down on in Germany ?
I wish it was like that here.
The main reasons social media is used:
a) You have a career that requires some PR management
b) You're the type who gets pleasure in showing off (the best image of) yourself to others
c) You are bored, and you get a small thrill from the attention
Are there any other reasons to be a regular, active participant on Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook? I get 'just having one' as a sort of contact directory, but beyond that...
Would an educated, independent thinker, someone who really tries to engage and understand the world and has discovered interesting opportunities which they pursue, really have any reason to spend significant time on social media?
a) You have a career that requires some PR management
b) You're the type who gets pleasure in showing off (the best image of) yourself to others
c) You are bored, and you get a small thrill from the attention
Are there any other reasons to be a regular, active participant on Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook? I get 'just having one' as a sort of contact directory, but beyond that...
Would an educated, independent thinker, someone who really tries to engage and understand the world and has discovered interesting opportunities which they pursue, really have any reason to spend significant time on social media?
Planning social engagements with friends. I can easily see who is going, let organisers and everyone else know if they want to that I may not make it, as well as see if there are other engagements that I've already agreed to go to.
I could do this with email and calendars, but I don't know 95% of my friend's email addresses. We talk over SMS and Facebook Messenger. If I wanted to find another one of my friend's I just search for their name, and if they have privacy settings set to only allow friends of friends to search for me - that's OK too!
I don't have to ask a friend for their email address, or their phone number and then ask that person for their email address. I don't have to phone or SMS people to see if they want to come, and I have an easy way to track it.
Sure, we all got along fine before social media. But Facebook has made planning social events ridiculously easy.
I haven't posted on my wall since 2013 and none of my information like age, email, phone number, etc is public. Sure Facebook has access to all sorts of conversations I've had over the years, but so do my local ISP's and data centres.
For anything that I'd truly like to keep private, I use PGP, OTR or chat in person.
I could do this with email and calendars, but I don't know 95% of my friend's email addresses. We talk over SMS and Facebook Messenger. If I wanted to find another one of my friend's I just search for their name, and if they have privacy settings set to only allow friends of friends to search for me - that's OK too!
I don't have to ask a friend for their email address, or their phone number and then ask that person for their email address. I don't have to phone or SMS people to see if they want to come, and I have an easy way to track it.
Sure, we all got along fine before social media. But Facebook has made planning social events ridiculously easy.
I haven't posted on my wall since 2013 and none of my information like age, email, phone number, etc is public. Sure Facebook has access to all sorts of conversations I've had over the years, but so do my local ISP's and data centres.
For anything that I'd truly like to keep private, I use PGP, OTR or chat in person.
the non naive way to look at this is that you and your friends gave up a little freedom (using open, standard and interoperative ways to communicate) for a little convenience (proprietary controlled communication medium)
How do they give up that freedom? Did they sign some agreement with FB never ever use any other forms of communication / events coordination?
No, they did not. Can we just cut this kind of crap? Facebook or any other social sites did not take away any freedoms from anyone.
> Facebook or any other social sites did not take away any freedoms from anyone.
The freedom from data being stored about the respective persons?
The freedom from data being stored about the respective persons?
Meetings I have with my friends are either planned over email, or via something that is specifically designed to pick a date, like http://doodle.com/.
The network effect works both ways, I was one of the few people initially who didn't adopt facebook, so anything that involved me had to be communicated over mail.
The network effect works both ways, I was one of the few people initially who didn't adopt facebook, so anything that involved me had to be communicated over mail.
I think for the same reason that you might hang out and converse with people. I've unfollowed a lot of people, so my feed has been pruned down to mostly interesting content. I occasionally post something that I think is interesting, relevant, and not widely known. Of course, there's a performative element, but that's true of all social interaction.
I mean, I get that a lot of social media content is narcissistic and vapid, but it's tool that you choose how to use.
I mean, I get that a lot of social media content is narcissistic and vapid, but it's tool that you choose how to use.
I'm an active participant on Facebook because it is hands down the best way to keep up with what my friends are doing.
I don't really appreciate the snarky insinuation that using Facebook makes me somehow uneducated or conformist.
I don't really appreciate the snarky insinuation that using Facebook makes me somehow uneducated or conformist.
I never advocated not using Facebook as if I'm above it. I'm questioning regular usage of social media... obviously not everyone (incl. you) falls into these categories, but can you imagine the great minds and innovators of our generation regularly Tweeting, engaging Instagram followers, and constantly updating their FB (if not for brand/ PR)?
> an educated, independent thinker, someone who really tries to engage and understand the world and has discovered interesting opportunities which they pursue
That certainly sounds like an attempt to insult those who do use Facebook.
> but can you image the great minds and innovators of our generation [...] updating their FB?
Absolutely, the same way that great minds of past generations had friends, went to social events, and wrote letters. Facebook is just the latest and easiest way to maintain the social bonds which are important to nearly all of us (including so-called "great minds").
I don't post status updates often (probably once a month), but I log into Facebook multiple times a day. It's great to see what my friends are up to and what they care about.
If not for seeing my friend at SpaceX post about today's launch, I probably would have missed out on watching it.
Get off your high horse. If you don't want to use Facebook, that's fine. That doesn't make those of us who do neanderthals.
That certainly sounds like an attempt to insult those who do use Facebook.
> but can you image the great minds and innovators of our generation [...] updating their FB?
Absolutely, the same way that great minds of past generations had friends, went to social events, and wrote letters. Facebook is just the latest and easiest way to maintain the social bonds which are important to nearly all of us (including so-called "great minds").
I don't post status updates often (probably once a month), but I log into Facebook multiple times a day. It's great to see what my friends are up to and what they care about.
If not for seeing my friend at SpaceX post about today's launch, I probably would have missed out on watching it.
Get off your high horse. If you don't want to use Facebook, that's fine. That doesn't make those of us who do neanderthals.
I accidentally downvoted you, sorry.
Your point about the great minds of the past is spot on. There's a reason why people buy letters from famous painters. I'm sure Van Gogh would at least have had a twitter account.
Your point about the great minds of the past is spot on. There's a reason why people buy letters from famous painters. I'm sure Van Gogh would at least have had a twitter account.
Don't you think emails are the digital successor to personal letter writing, not broadcasting to a bunch of followers on Twitter?
Anyways, based on artists I know - who aren't digital artists/ graphic designers, a scene where most tech companies are viewed as just an extension of greedy capitalism, I have serious doubts Van Gogh would be an active user on Twitter.
Anyways, based on artists I know - who aren't digital artists/ graphic designers, a scene where most tech companies are viewed as just an extension of greedy capitalism, I have serious doubts Van Gogh would be an active user on Twitter.
Well, you censored the bulk of my argument with the quote there :) It's regular, frequent usage...
I don't think I've come close to calling anyone a neanderthal, sorry if this has riled some emotions. If you are younger, you will certainly have a lot more pressure to use it (you can be ostracized), so you probably should use it.
Also, people tend to have a cognitive bias against judging themselves as conformist... myself included. We probably all are more than we would like to admit.
I don't think I've come close to calling anyone a neanderthal, sorry if this has riled some emotions. If you are younger, you will certainly have a lot more pressure to use it (you can be ostracized), so you probably should use it.
Also, people tend to have a cognitive bias against judging themselves as conformist... myself included. We probably all are more than we would like to admit.
>Absolutely, the same way that great minds of past generations had friends, went to social events, and wrote letters.
I recently read the Wulf's The Invention of Nature, a biography of Alexander von Humboldt - from the middle of his life up until his death Humboldt wrote 2000 to 3000 letters per year, crazy if you think how much work a "regular" letter is.
I recently read the Wulf's The Invention of Nature, a biography of Alexander von Humboldt - from the middle of his life up until his death Humboldt wrote 2000 to 3000 letters per year, crazy if you think how much work a "regular" letter is.
>as if I'm above it.
Your post laid out three users of social media. One was a professional managing a brand. The other two were narcissists.
If you're not above it, what were you trying to get at with that post?
Your post laid out three users of social media. One was a professional managing a brand. The other two were narcissists.
If you're not above it, what were you trying to get at with that post?
Large extended family and circle of friend staying touch?
I don't use but my wife does, because our extended families are on it. Grammas, cousins, high school friends, that couple across the street, the realtor, ... etc.
Could they use email? Probably, but they don't they use Facebook for whatever reason.
Personally I don't have an interest in it but like hearing once in a while how so and so is doing. I usually communicate via email, google chat, or phone.
One thing I never quite got was Twitter though, just never really saw an interest it, never understood it...
I don't use but my wife does, because our extended families are on it. Grammas, cousins, high school friends, that couple across the street, the realtor, ... etc.
Could they use email? Probably, but they don't they use Facebook for whatever reason.
Personally I don't have an interest in it but like hearing once in a while how so and so is doing. I usually communicate via email, google chat, or phone.
One thing I never quite got was Twitter though, just never really saw an interest it, never understood it...
I encountered a Mexican kid outside my house (I live in the USA) who was asking me if I knew where there was WiFi. It turns out he was new to the USA and had a cheap Android phone. From our conversation I realized that all of his communication was via FB. Like, he didn't use "email" or "phone" technologies--FB or bust. I actually let him use my WiFi to find his friends. I couldn't tell if he was on vacation or planning to stay...
I can add that in Brazil, there is a significant amount of people who can't even Google, however are active on Facebook and WhatsApp.
When I moved to France for a semester I had to make a fb to keep in touch because I didn't have a phone. Until you get yourself established in places it's a very easy way to keep in contact with people and make new friends regardless of what you're used to in your home country.
I have a slew of acquaintances from around the world. Facebook makes it easy to stay in touch, and to discuss the things we enjoy.
Yes, there are other ways to do this, via specific forums, which I also use. But facebook is a bit more casual, friendly, and easier to use.
That said, it is frustrating to use it for serious discussions (of course that isn't what it is for)
But your last, fairly insulting question could be rephrased as "would an educated, independent thinker..., have any reason to communicate with anyone else?"
Facebook is just a communication tool.
But your last, fairly insulting question could be rephrased as "would an educated, independent thinker..., have any reason to communicate with anyone else?"
Facebook is just a communication tool.
I'm educated, but I'd way rather see what my friends are up to or what their kids are doing than try to "understand the world" (whatever that means). Facebook is great for that.
Are there any other reasons to be a regular, active participant on... Facebook?
Party invitations. Facebook is Evite.
Party invitations. Facebook is Evite.
One other reason is professional where you follow "leaders" and amateurs who will one day become professional "leaders" in whatever activity one might be interested in like, professional development, hobby development, etc.
Finding and staying connected with old friends easily. That is a big one.
To me that's the contact directory point... I'm also talking about regularly participating as opposed to just having one, the latter being so people can connect with you when they need to.
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Maybe it's because a lot of Germans have already experienced a total surveillance state and what that means for their freedom/well being when the information is turned against them, or, at least, remember the stories from their relatives who did.
Btw, I’ll suggest the movie "Das Leben der Anderen".
Even today in German schools the GDR and the Nazi time are some of the most important topics in history class, including us visiting the places, talking to eye witnesses, etc.
That leaves quite an impression.
Even today in German schools the GDR and the Nazi time are some of the most important topics in history class, including us visiting the places, talking to eye witnesses, etc.
That leaves quite an impression.
What the story ignores, but the data makes quite clear, is that Germany is already an outlier here, regardless of the level of education. Probably because income is less associated with educational level in a richer, more functional society like Germany. Also notice from the data that the difference between educated and less-educated folks is very slight, in terms of social media engagement.
This is only a measure of "social media popularity of national offices of either head of state, head of government, or government as a whole" (with respect to national education levels) according to the original report. [1] The report also classifies the social media strategies of various OECD countries, but does not list Germany's. [2, right side] Perhaps the Chancellor's office has other priorities.
[1] http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Management/oecd/governa...
[2] http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Management/oecd/governa...
[1] http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Management/oecd/governa...
[2] http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Management/oecd/governa...
Germany has a unique historical relationship towards domestic spying and intrusion. I wonder if that influences Germans attitudes towards websites that accrue personal data.
Germany has - after Japan - the second oldest population on the planet. Maybe this plays a role here, too as young people almost always use at least some social media - regardless of their level of education.
I find the whole premise of this article a bit weird. It starts with "Good news". Why is it automatically good news that educated people use social media less?
I'm a German living in the United States and find this part of German society pretty annoying: Being super careful about anything that could potentially encroach on your privacy (for example see the fate of Google Street View in Germany).
I'm a German living in the United States and find this part of German society pretty annoying: Being super careful about anything that could potentially encroach on your privacy (for example see the fate of Google Street View in Germany).
Why is being careful about your privacy annoying?
How dare they not spew everything in public for all to see.
"(for example see the fate of Google Street View in Germany)"
and b/c you can't find everyone easily on facebook
and b/c you can't find everyone easily on facebook
I am not sure if that answers my question.
>I'm a German living in the United States and find this part of German society pretty annoying: Being super careful about anything that could potentially encroach on your privacy
In the case of Google Maps, I understand that a non-functional application might be annoying and at least Google makes some effort to blur data. But in my reading of the original post, the poster is annoyed that the German community at large has decided to exercise their rights to privacy.
>I'm a German living in the United States and find this part of German society pretty annoying: Being super careful about anything that could potentially encroach on your privacy
In the case of Google Maps, I understand that a non-functional application might be annoying and at least Google makes some effort to blur data. But in my reading of the original post, the poster is annoyed that the German community at large has decided to exercise their rights to privacy.
It just seems like a national pastime to post as little information about yourself or anything you're associated with anywhere online at all. As an expat that it makes it hard to stay in contact with many people.
It's everybody's right to do whatever they want with their personal information, but in Germany it often gets to a point where you're being judged if you yourself decide to post something on a social network site.
It also leads to all kind of weird regulations from the government (again, see Street View as an example or the more recent EU-wide regulation of a minimum age of 16 to open social network accounts).
It's everybody's right to do whatever they want with their personal information, but in Germany it often gets to a point where you're being judged if you yourself decide to post something on a social network site.
It also leads to all kind of weird regulations from the government (again, see Street View as an example or the more recent EU-wide regulation of a minimum age of 16 to open social network accounts).
People elsewhere see it as good news because these concerns are overwhelmingly dismissed in most other cultures.
Germans do happily register every change in their adress to a population register ("Melderegister"), which is also required by the law. This data can (and will) be sold for profit by the administration and an opt-out is only for a limited timeframe.
Germans don't care at all about stuff like this. Instead I bet they would be outraged if a US based company did the exact same thing.
Germans don't care at all about stuff like this. Instead I bet they would be outraged if a US based company did the exact same thing.
> Germans don't care at all about stuff like this.
No, this is not true. Me and my circles openly disgust that. Only because there is no public outcry doesn't mean they don't care. But indeed it's rather the younger generation that cares about these topics.
No, this is not true. Me and my circles openly disgust that. Only because there is no public outcry doesn't mean they don't care. But indeed it's rather the younger generation that cares about these topics.
I wonder if there are better and/or more alternatives to social media in Germany than elsewhere. Maybe they're just too busy with other things, and satisfied, to bother with social media.
Do comments on articles count as social media? The German newspaper sites often have very active comment threads
>Or is it historical? Have well-educated Germans better internalized the lessons of German history under Nazi and communist rule?
I don't think there's any need to play amateur psychologist. From what I can tell it's cultural from before the great "isms" of the 20th century. My (German) relatives, who arrived in the US in the 1920s, were less likely to share their business with non-family. That's how they were raised.
I don't think there's any need to play amateur psychologist. From what I can tell it's cultural from before the great "isms" of the 20th century. My (German) relatives, who arrived in the US in the 1920s, were less likely to share their business with non-family. That's how they were raised.
Many people I know moved their asses out of Facebook after Snowden. The NSA did really help American companies /s
Maybe social media is seen as a waste of time?
While you're reading facebook, you're not producing anything.
I think it's safe to say that it's not a matter of a recreational activity vs. "producing something". I think it rather has to do with the fact that Germans are very privacy conscious. Facebook (and other American application providers) have a pretty bad rep.
Indeed.
And, additionally, there are also those people who are still stuck on studiVZ.
And, additionally, there are also those people who are still stuck on studiVZ.
When I am reading a book I am not producint anything either. Or when listening to music. Or walking. Or…
What about sites like reddit? I don't have any stats, but there seems to be a good representation of Germans.
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Scientific proof that the germans on twitter are retarded!
Interesting idea.
Because Felix von Leitner (Fefe) has been arguing the same. Every time he tries to discuss something, he gets long, carefully argued info via email, and completely retarded insults via Twitter.
Because Felix von Leitner (Fefe) has been arguing the same. Every time he tries to discuss something, he gets long, carefully argued info via email, and completely retarded insults via Twitter.