Hacking Real World Systems(mattmaroon.com)
mattmaroon.com
Hacking Real World Systems
http://mattmaroon.com/?p=328
8 comments
As near as I can tell here, a hack is ethical unless it makes money. It's the tortured artist ethic perhaps.
I for one misread your story, should have read more carefully. I thought you got points just for repressing the button after one deposit. The other way (as you described it), yeah, I guess it was just stupidity on the part of the poker firm. Morality would still be debatable - if it had not been a poker firm, but a charity or whatever, people might feel different about it.
I also often have to sign contracts, and I am not sure if all of them are 100% waterproof - probably they are not. But even though the opposing lawyers could probably screw me over, doesn't mean it would be ethical for them to do so.
I also often have to sign contracts, and I am not sure if all of them are 100% waterproof - probably they are not. But even though the opposing lawyers could probably screw me over, doesn't mean it would be ethical for them to do so.
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I strongly suspect that the site had an agreement that said, "When you deposit x dollars, you get y points." You seem to be morally juvenile. When you crack (not hack) a computer system in order to steal merchandise, it doesn't matter how "stupid" the system was. I think a deadbolt is pretty fucking "stupid", but that doesn't make smashing it open somehow acceptable.
EDIT: Frankly, I re-read the original post and I'm not sure what's going on. Is he actually depositing money or depositing a small amount and somehow refreshing it so that it reads like a larger amount? If he is doing the former, then it isn't a hack at all. If he is doing the latter, then it is thievery, pure and simple. I read it the latter way because the former way (as I said) makes no sense as a "hack".
EDIT: Frankly, I re-read the original post and I'm not sure what's going on. Is he actually depositing money or depositing a small amount and somehow refreshing it so that it reads like a larger amount? If he is doing the former, then it isn't a hack at all. If he is doing the latter, then it is thievery, pure and simple. I read it the latter way because the former way (as I said) makes no sense as a "hack".
He deposited $50,000 at a time! You were allowed to make as many deposits as you wanted, $500 at once. He didn't steal points, he got the points he was supposed to get for clicking deposit 100 times.
Why do you say he stole something? I can't believe how many (people) are misreading Matt's words. There is no fraud, there is no crime. What is your problem?
Why do you say he stole something? I can't believe how many (people) are misreading Matt's words. There is no fraud, there is no crime. What is your problem?
...said the dope dealer.
You can dismiss all logic when responding to me?
No, but I may have the facts all turned around.
Response to edit:
>you could make one deposit and then just keep hitting refresh to deposit again and again
He is actually depositing money and very large amounts of money. The site made it easy to deposit up to $500, so Matt repeated that process ad nauseum. After a week, when the points cleared, he withdrew the money.
The hack is because he was able to get large amounts of video game systems and video games by having his bankroll tied up for one week.
>you could make one deposit and then just keep hitting refresh to deposit again and again
He is actually depositing money and very large amounts of money. The site made it easy to deposit up to $500, so Matt repeated that process ad nauseum. After a week, when the points cleared, he withdrew the money.
The hack is because he was able to get large amounts of video game systems and video games by having his bankroll tied up for one week.
Okay, but it's not a hack then. Any idiot could sit there depositing a pile of money, withdrawing it, wash, rinse, repeat. He definitely wasn't making it clear as to what was going on.
There seems to be a good tradition of "gambler hackers", e.g.
- Edward O. Thorp ("Beat the Dealer" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_O._Thorp )
- Keith Taft (http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/taftint.html)
- the MIT Blackjack Team ( "Bringing down the house" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bringing_Down_the_House_(book) )
- Edward O. Thorp ("Beat the Dealer" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_O._Thorp )
- Keith Taft (http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/taftint.html)
- the MIT Blackjack Team ( "Bringing down the house" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bringing_Down_the_House_(book) )
Amarillo Slim was a great one too, before he got all child-molesty.
This should disqualify him right away. Bragging about it tells me that he can't tell the difference between right and wrong.
Too late.
What was wrong here? It's not like the gambling company needed the money.
-2 and no one telling me what was wrong.
Was it the clicking of the button? Or was it the scripting? Perhaps it was the not committing a crime part?
People, reread the story -- he deposited tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars at once, only to withdraw it after a week.
Was it the clicking of the button? Or was it the scripting? Perhaps it was the not committing a crime part?
People, reread the story -- he deposited tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars at once, only to withdraw it after a week.
"Wow, I could write a book on these, as that's pretty much my one true passion in life..."
I was thinking the same thing as soon as I read the question.
I was thinking the same thing as soon as I read the question.
I'm not sure Paul Graham meant "publicly admitting to fraud" when he said "best non-computer hack."
This would make me drop you like a sack of armpit hair if I were a VC...
This would make me drop you like a sack of armpit hair if I were a VC...
This was a crime. He stole money from the site.
There's no crime here. He followed the rules of the promotion.
Party Poker awarded points for making deposits. Matt deposited money. He would deposit so much money at a time (up to $50K) that he got bored clicking buttons, so he wrote a script to do it for him.
So, if depositing money wasn't against the rules and withdrawing the money after he got the FPPs wasn't against the rules, how can you possible claim that "this was a crime"?
Party Poker awarded points for making deposits. Matt deposited money. He would deposit so much money at a time (up to $50K) that he got bored clicking buttons, so he wrote a script to do it for him.
So, if depositing money wasn't against the rules and withdrawing the money after he got the FPPs wasn't against the rules, how can you possible claim that "this was a crime"?
I am quite sure poker sites have rules in their player agreements that strictly forbid and scripts or automation, which may overlap here to the cashier side of things.
How was this a crime? He just exploited their dumb system. This "hack" is kind of obvious, and whomever implemented the system should have thought of it. The only remotely criminal thing I can see in this is using an automated script to move his money.
The way I read the post, he deposited all his money ($50,000 or so?) into the account, withdrawing it again as soon as he was credited. He could have refreshed the page himself, hired a Chinese monkey to do it or create a script to log in and deposit money again and again...call me a genius, but I can't see how this is a very sophisticated or even defraud an obviously broken system.
The way I read the post, he deposited all his money ($50,000 or so?) into the account, withdrawing it again as soon as he was credited. He could have refreshed the page himself, hired a Chinese monkey to do it or create a script to log in and deposit money again and again...call me a genius, but I can't see how this is a very sophisticated or even defraud an obviously broken system.
Unethical yes, criminal probably not.
I'd be more sympathetic to the victim if they weren't themselves in the business of taking money from the helpless.
I'd be more sympathetic to the victim if they weren't themselves in the business of taking money from the helpless.
I don't think either me or the casino were unethical. It's sort of the gambler ethic, which I guess may not be obvious to the general public. You're supposed to do anything and everything you can, within the rules, to gain an edge. Casinos do it to the players, players to casinos, players to players, etc. Anything not against the rules is considered ethical, and anyone who doesn't use every legal tool at his disposal is a sucker.
It's pure survival of the fittest.
It's pure survival of the fittest.
What specific law do you think he violated?
I think it's possible he may have violated the terms of service somewhere along the line but I doubt he broke the law.
I think it's possible he may have violated the terms of service somewhere along the line but I doubt he broke the law.
Which crime was it? It wasn't stealing. He didn't sneak in and take stuff. They sent it to him.
Others say fraud. But what did he lie or deceive about? He didn't hide anything.
Others say fraud. But what did he lie or deceive about? He didn't hide anything.
Interesting, but maybe better kept secret?
why?
Well, it's kind of like admitting fraud in public (for lack of a better word). It reminds me of the recent incident were some gangsters were busted because they posted revealing videos on YouTube. Moreover, I wonder if some crawler could be devised looking for people admitting their scams on their blogs, and solve a huge amounts of crimes that way...
Fraud is the best word you could choose.
In several countries (e.g. Germany, France... don't know about US) this is called computer fraud. And because he did it to sell the goods and make money, some countries would add "professional" and double the punishment.
In several countries (e.g. Germany, France... don't know about US) this is called computer fraud. And because he did it to sell the goods and make money, some countries would add "professional" and double the punishment.
But what was the fraudulent act? Clicking the deposit button?
OK on second reading, I guess it really was just stupidity of the poker site, for allowing withdrawal of the money after having received the bonus points. Sorry I misread, I thought he just gained the points for clicking the button repeatedly after a single deposit.
I represented myself in US Federal court on a civil rights action against a county and Sheriff's department, and prevailed. Had never previously picked up a law book. Gathered evidence myself, and circumvented the defendant's attempts at destroying some of that evidence. All things considered, it was a coup on my part.
I did not break any law in any country, or even violate a site rule. It's preposterous to call it unethical. I simply took advantage of a flawed system.