Sexist Reactions to an Ad Spark #ILookLikeAnEngineer Campaign(npr.org)
npr.org
Sexist Reactions to an Ad Spark #ILookLikeAnEngineer Campaign
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/08/04/429362127/sexist-reactions-to-an-ad-spark-ilooklikeanengineer-campaign
5 comments
Wait, her response, with the hashtag, was to promote the fact that there are lots of engineers who don't look like many people's stereotype of an engineer, no?
What about that involves 'shame and fear'?
Why does it bug you?
What about that involves 'shame and fear'?
Why does it bug you?
Maybe because Isis Anchalee Wenger is not an engineer, despite what her inflated job title ("platform engineer") and 3-months of web development bootcamp may tell her to the contrary. That doesn't mean she doesn't face real sexism -- just one comment about her appearance is one too many. The more interesting question, however, is what does a software engineer actually look like? Does a 3-month web bootcamp give you the rights?
I don't know anything about her, and didn't really care enough to research her personally, and still don't really. Why did you? What is it that bugs you? Cause I still say there is no "shame and fear" involved in this 'campaign'.
I think anyone who has a job writing code can legitimately call themselves a software engineer, it's just a synonym for programmer these days, and if you program, you're a programmer.
(I play accordion, not all that well. Once a teacher of mine, who is an incredible musician, overheard me answering the question "Do you play accordion?" with "Well, I'm learning," and he said to me something like "Don't say you don't play the accordion, of course you play the accordion, I've seen you playing it, you play the accordion, you're a musician. If you pick up the accordion and play something on it, you are an accordionist, which is something to be proud of. Never deny it." This coming from a guy who is probably one of the top accordionists on the planet, better then I'll ever be (because he's been dedicating himself to it for decades since he was a child) -- was a lesson for me in confidence and generosity to oneself and others vs being excessively self-critical).
There are enough software engineers that I think it's clear that the answer to "what does a software engineer actually look like" is: Just like everyone else, they look like everyone.
I think anyone who has a job writing code can legitimately call themselves a software engineer, it's just a synonym for programmer these days, and if you program, you're a programmer.
(I play accordion, not all that well. Once a teacher of mine, who is an incredible musician, overheard me answering the question "Do you play accordion?" with "Well, I'm learning," and he said to me something like "Don't say you don't play the accordion, of course you play the accordion, I've seen you playing it, you play the accordion, you're a musician. If you pick up the accordion and play something on it, you are an accordionist, which is something to be proud of. Never deny it." This coming from a guy who is probably one of the top accordionists on the planet, better then I'll ever be (because he's been dedicating himself to it for decades since he was a child) -- was a lesson for me in confidence and generosity to oneself and others vs being excessively self-critical).
There are enough software engineers that I think it's clear that the answer to "what does a software engineer actually look like" is: Just like everyone else, they look like everyone.
Why do you assume I researched Ms. Wenger? Why does that bother you? FYI, someone who was a classmate of hers mentioned it in the comments to some article on her.
>>I think anyone who has a job writing code can legitimately call themselves a software engineer, it's just a synonym for programmer these days, and if you program, you're a programmer.
That's exactly it: what you think. Anyway, it's not clear because people do ask (this time I just did my research...even the US Bureau of Labor and Statistics differentiate).
Btw, I'm not talking about appearance when I ask what a software engineer looks like, I'm talking about whether three-month experience from a web development academy makes a software engineer. That bothers me.
Btw, I'm not talking about appearance when I ask what a software engineer looks like, I'm talking about whether three-month experience from a web development academy makes a software engineer. That bothers me.
What do you think (which of course will be "just what you think", as you say) are the qualifications for calling oneself a software engineer?
What is it that bothers you about people who have jobs coding calling themselves "software engineers" when you don't think they qualify?
I think a survey of job postings would confirm that even entry-level job postings, for which someone with 3 months of training might qualify, are routinely advertised as 'software engineer' positions. So it may not be "just what I think".
If you're reading comments from classmates on some article about her, you're clearly doing more research than I am. I've read nothing but the OP, and don't have any particular interest in learning more about her, honestly. But I like the hashtag.
What is it that bothers you about people who have jobs coding calling themselves "software engineers" when you don't think they qualify?
I think a survey of job postings would confirm that even entry-level job postings, for which someone with 3 months of training might qualify, are routinely advertised as 'software engineer' positions. So it may not be "just what I think".
If you're reading comments from classmates on some article about her, you're clearly doing more research than I am. I've read nothing but the OP, and don't have any particular interest in learning more about her, honestly. But I like the hashtag.
>>What do you think (which of course will be "just what you think", as you say) are the qualifications for calling oneself a software engineer?
Are you asking me to find out what I think, or are you just asking in order to prove a point? It's unclear, as you've mentioned yet again how you have no particular interest in Ms. Wenger...
>> What is it that bothers you about people who have jobs coding calling themselves "software engineers" when you don't think they qualify?
I can't imagine that three months of experience makes anyone particularly qualified for anything but to learn that they like something, which is not necessarily bad. But why three months? Why not at least a year, like the Udacity Android developer programmer?
>>I think a survey of job postings would confirm that even entry-level job postings, for which someone with 3 months of training might qualify, are routinely advertised as 'software engineer' positions. So it may not be "just what I think". Have you done a survey of entry-level postings? Given that reading comments in an article already constitute "research" to you, so I'm guess the answer is no. Thus it is indeed "just what you think" (And perhaps what some HR personnel think). It's just unfortunate that somewhere in the hiring process, people with a 3-month bootcamp experience can get hired but older software engineers/developers can't. Seems that the valley can't keep female CS/EECS/SEng grads in tech and can't hire older developers after age 30. But web bootcamps can certainly pop up and try to sell the myth that one can become a fully-contributing software engineer after three months.
Your only interesting point was the sharing of the accordion story and generosity of spirit. Thank you for that exchange.
>>I think a survey of job postings would confirm that even entry-level job postings, for which someone with 3 months of training might qualify, are routinely advertised as 'software engineer' positions. So it may not be "just what I think". Have you done a survey of entry-level postings? Given that reading comments in an article already constitute "research" to you, so I'm guess the answer is no. Thus it is indeed "just what you think" (And perhaps what some HR personnel think). It's just unfortunate that somewhere in the hiring process, people with a 3-month bootcamp experience can get hired but older software engineers/developers can't. Seems that the valley can't keep female CS/EECS/SEng grads in tech and can't hire older developers after age 30. But web bootcamps can certainly pop up and try to sell the myth that one can become a fully-contributing software engineer after three months.
Your only interesting point was the sharing of the accordion story and generosity of spirit. Thank you for that exchange.
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The worst thing is that "looking like an engineer" is a pejorative description. People expect some kind of nerdy appearance from an engineer no matter what gender the person is.
Exactly. I've been told I don't look like an engineer but it doesn't matter because I'm a man.
As if companies never hire attractive models to feature in their campaigns
I think the hashtag is cool. Just waiting for lots of male engineers in drag to subvert it. Seriously though it's cheap and I really do not see a downside except woman may be encouraged to become engineers and be surprised by long hours impinging on family time (long hours (if a little self inflicted) impinge on my family time). (I will not declare whether I am male of female. My bio: Engineering degree/programmer).
Something tells me it's going to be a long, slow process stamping out sexism in tech. But this is a good step forward.
Edit: I know remarking on downvotes is frowned-upon here, but I just can't help it. Good to see HNs resident mysogynists are keeping on top of their game!
Edit: I know remarking on downvotes is frowned-upon here, but I just can't help it. Good to see HNs resident mysogynists are keeping on top of their game!
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You were downvoted (not by me) for not providing anything meaningful to the discussion, not because of your bias.
Stop being a victim, don't blame other people every time you screw up (as we all do from time to time)
Stop being a victim, don't blame other people every time you screw up (as we all do from time to time)
It feels like weeks since the last gender in tech hashtag has trended. I've been waiting desperately for something to steal the internet's vitriol and outrage from this whole Cecil the lion thing.
OK - yes - I'm being entirely facetious there. This might take off it might not, but I am personally tired of the seemingly endless new thing to be outraged by.
Tim Hunt, Gamergate, Doglegate, Meritocracy Carpet, Beach Body Ready, Cancel Colbert ... then if you start googling around for "gender hashtags" you'll see articles extoling the "social change hashtags" of the year - but if you look at them http://www.forbes.com/sites/karenhua/2015/06/03/tweeting-to-... ... http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomwatson/2014/12/29/top-social-...
What has actually changed? How is the world a better place?
I'm honestly appalled that this poor young woman had to suffer shitty troll comments in the internet, but a hashtag isn't going to actually do anything.
Do we really think those idiots are the same ones reading the social justice pages of the huffington post?
Holding on to outrage or fanning the flames of outrage are NOT the right way to effect positive social change.
Shame and fear may be effective methods of effecting change, but they're dark and hurtful. Love, patience, forgiveness and kindness is better for everyone.
http://www.futurity.org/shame-942522/ https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/creative-synthesis/2015... https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/research/wor...
There's a reason this stuff is in the 2000 year old wisdom of Jesus (turn the other cheek) and the 2500 year old wisdom of Buddha.
Love is the answer.