37signals Launches Haystack for Web Designers and Clients To Find Each Other(37signals.com)
37signals.com
37signals Launches Haystack for Web Designers and Clients To Find Each Other
http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1976-launch-haystack-a-better-way-for-web-designers-to-find-clients-and-for-clients-to-find-web-designers
14 comments
I'm not sure you need the visual component for developers - the hard part is getting a sense for what things cost, how long they take, and how people work.
Turns out those things are really hard to get a feeling for in isolation, but in comparisons, people are really good at it. I know I want an iPhone app; I come across http://www.flingmedia.com/, and the contact us form gives me his rates. Then you try to see if Brian's rates are valid; the pricing itself gives a marker of credibility. If Brian's rates are in line with what I see elsewhere, and his portfolio seems directionally suggestive enough that he can build what he says he can build, at the very least, I'm going to contact him. The conversation with Brian will tell me, as a client, if he'd be good to work with. Sure, it takes more work - you can't make judgments based so heavily on portfolios - but I really think Haystack would be really helpful to both clients and developers. (So, please, add developers!)
Semi-related, I'll bet you a dollar that people will be looking for local designers before they look at portfolios (rather than starting with portfolios) because you give them that option. For developers, I bet they'd do the same. You'll be able to track that relatively easily.
Turns out those things are really hard to get a feeling for in isolation, but in comparisons, people are really good at it. I know I want an iPhone app; I come across http://www.flingmedia.com/, and the contact us form gives me his rates. Then you try to see if Brian's rates are valid; the pricing itself gives a marker of credibility. If Brian's rates are in line with what I see elsewhere, and his portfolio seems directionally suggestive enough that he can build what he says he can build, at the very least, I'm going to contact him. The conversation with Brian will tell me, as a client, if he'd be good to work with. Sure, it takes more work - you can't make judgments based so heavily on portfolios - but I really think Haystack would be really helpful to both clients and developers. (So, please, add developers!)
Semi-related, I'll bet you a dollar that people will be looking for local designers before they look at portfolios (rather than starting with portfolios) because you give them that option. For developers, I bet they'd do the same. You'll be able to track that relatively easily.
Just curious: why do you think people care about geography more than skill?
I don't know about Sachin, but we like working with locals so we can meet them face to face without paying thousands for travel expenses.
To keep the logic going (that Dustin may have been implying) - why meet face-to-face and pay thousands for travel expenses?
- People prioritize those who they have met in person: it's why in-person meetings are so important in sales.
- There's a higher likelihood they share networks, or have the potential to share networks, which provides additional incentive to do a good job.
In short, all the reasons that geography still matters in most businesses.
- There's a higher likelihood they share networks, or have the potential to share networks, which provides additional incentive to do a good job.
In short, all the reasons that geography still matters in most businesses.
I was just thinking, so we could share a piece of paper to draw on. But those reasons make sense too.
You can be separated by distance and still easily use paper to quickly iterate through ideas. 37signals themselves do this - they're geographically distributed yet use Sharpies to think through rough interface ideas:
http://37signals.com/svn/posts/466-sketching-with-a-sharpie
http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1880-the-different-sketch-sty...
All of my freelance clients in the last few years have been startups in the Bay Area (where I live) so I understand all of those reasons and the benefits of proximity. Hell, I wouldn't have moved up here if I hadn't read Hackers And Painters in 2005 - I wanted to be where the action was. But I've been slowly doing less and less on-site work and have gotten to the point where I don't do much more than weekly meetings and not even that with some clients, so I can't help but realize that I could've technically been anywhere in the world for all intents and purposes. And these aren't low-paying entry level portfolio builders either, it's real paying work with the same challenges as always.
So again, are the reasons for working with a local designer more important than overall skill and portfolio?
http://37signals.com/svn/posts/466-sketching-with-a-sharpie
http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1880-the-different-sketch-sty...
All of my freelance clients in the last few years have been startups in the Bay Area (where I live) so I understand all of those reasons and the benefits of proximity. Hell, I wouldn't have moved up here if I hadn't read Hackers And Painters in 2005 - I wanted to be where the action was. But I've been slowly doing less and less on-site work and have gotten to the point where I don't do much more than weekly meetings and not even that with some clients, so I can't help but realize that I could've technically been anywhere in the world for all intents and purposes. And these aren't low-paying entry level portfolio builders either, it's real paying work with the same challenges as always.
So again, are the reasons for working with a local designer more important than overall skill and portfolio?
[deleted]
It's not only about caring more, but also about which filters are offered.
Since "near this city" is filter 1 and price range is nr. 2, people are going to pick their city to shorten their options from several hundreds to a couple dozen to make it easier to choose.
Not too big of a deal right now, but once there are 10x as many designers on there, this is going to be one of those straws clients will grasp on to, even when geography really isn't that relevant to them.
Since "near this city" is filter 1 and price range is nr. 2, people are going to pick their city to shorten their options from several hundreds to a couple dozen to make it easier to choose.
Not too big of a deal right now, but once there are 10x as many designers on there, this is going to be one of those straws clients will grasp on to, even when geography really isn't that relevant to them.
Yeah, you're right, but you can probably also agree that honing in a certain market segment (graphics designers) is a better idea / opportunity than to go into competition with other typical job-related bulletin boards...
Well EY launched https://www.railsdevelopment.com/ - only Rails development specific.
What's the plan for preventing the uploading of other people's work?
If you see your work uploaded under someone else's account, you can write support for Haystack and we'll investigate. Doubt it'll be a major problem.
"... matching designer’s work so they can hone in visually: ..."
Interesting to see the contrast b/w 'visual' search to search by 'algorythm'. Less work involved, product gets out quicker and works. Will the machine, the algorythm make selection better (easier for users). I'm thinking of Demand in particular ~ http://stephenlaughlin.posterous.com/demand-media-uses-algor...
Interesting to see the contrast b/w 'visual' search to search by 'algorythm'. Less work involved, product gets out quicker and works. Will the machine, the algorythm make selection better (easier for users). I'm thinking of Demand in particular ~ http://stephenlaughlin.posterous.com/demand-media-uses-algor...
One piece of feedback: we've found that buyers don't think in ranges; they think in terms of budgets. If my budget is $10,000, I don't just want to see the $3K-$10K range; I'd want to see all the designers under $10K, so that I'd see the under $3K and the $3K-$10K group all at once.
EDIT: Second piece of feedback: you should add a "see other designers like this" on the page. For example, for http://haystack.com/company/161-right-sizer, there should be a link to see all other Chicago designers under $3K. (I got to this page by clicking on its card on the front page of the site.)
EDIT: Second piece of feedback: you should add a "see other designers like this" on the page. For example, for http://haystack.com/company/161-right-sizer, there should be a link to see all other Chicago designers under $3K. (I got to this page by clicking on its card on the front page of the site.)
Good ideas/feedback. Thanks for posting.
Just thought I'd disagree with this one. No offense at all, but I'd rather see a range. Too many talentless design kids out there. I would rather be able to pre-filter by only looking at what someone else has paid good money for. Just me two pence.
Here's another feature I'd like to see: Availability.
This is the most frustrating thing about any designer I've ever contacted or worked with.. Half the time their plates are so full that you can't get a slot.. I'd like to know that in advance so I have a better idea of wait time..
This is the most frustrating thing about any designer I've ever contacted or worked with.. Half the time their plates are so full that you can't get a slot.. I'd like to know that in advance so I have a better idea of wait time..
Behance.net has a feature like that:
Status:
(x) On Fire
( ) Busy
( ) Available
( ) BoredI'm almost always in a position where I could say I'm too busy to work on something. I like it because the jobs that I really want to do, I'll find the time to do. But for the ones I don't want to do, I can either say I'm too busy or else bid 4x my normal rate. If they want me for 4x, I'll make the time.
As much as that sounds really useful, I think it steps outside the bounds of what Haystack is for. Haystack has no interest in keeping track of specific projects, billing etc.
Haystack IMHO is just a card catalog — a painless way to get a basic idea of a designer's work. No more, no less.
Haystack IMHO is just a card catalog — a painless way to get a basic idea of a designer's work. No more, no less.
Cool.
For comparison's sake, this is very similar to another website that's been around for a few years, Carbonmade (http://carbonmade.com). Carbonmade is a bit broader than just web design, but it's likewise beautifully designed and it's also a lot cheaper ($12/month for a pro account).
I don't mean to take away anything from this particular announcement or product, but I think it's useful to consider existing products as well in the contexts of discussions like this one.
(FWIW I have no affiliation whatsoever with Carbonmade.)
For comparison's sake, this is very similar to another website that's been around for a few years, Carbonmade (http://carbonmade.com). Carbonmade is a bit broader than just web design, but it's likewise beautifully designed and it's also a lot cheaper ($12/month for a pro account).
I don't mean to take away anything from this particular announcement or product, but I think it's useful to consider existing products as well in the contexts of discussions like this one.
(FWIW I have no affiliation whatsoever with Carbonmade.)
A rising tide raises all ships. I think this announcement is great for Carbonmade.
For example, I heard of online invoicing when I came across Freshbooks. However, I did some research and went with Harvest.
I think people will see Haystack, see the value proposition, do some research, and then Google search and come across Carbonmade.
I think Haystack will be successful. And I think that will make Carbonmade more successful, too. Haystack legitimizes the market.
For example, I heard of online invoicing when I came across Freshbooks. However, I did some research and went with Harvest.
I think people will see Haystack, see the value proposition, do some research, and then Google search and come across Carbonmade.
I think Haystack will be successful. And I think that will make Carbonmade more successful, too. Haystack legitimizes the market.
I couldn't find a way to filter by location or budget w/ Carbonmade, though, just expertise and skill.
Haystack seems more focused on clients while Carbonmade is more focused on helping designers manage their portfolio quickly and easily.
Haystack seems more focused on clients while Carbonmade is more focused on helping designers manage their portfolio quickly and easily.
At $99 / month for Pro accounts, I can see 37 signals making a small fortune off of this.
They've already reached the 1,000 pre-signups and have at least 20+ pro accounts. They made a (very) small fortune in less than 5 hours.
If they can give designers a decent return and keep clients coming back... wow.
If they can give designers a decent return and keep clients coming back... wow.
It didn't require a super-unique idea that needed to be rushed to market before the window of opportunity closed, either. Just another common idea, executed well. (Ok, so they're not quite there yet.)
Not just a well executed idea.
Its another situation like StackOverflow where they can tackle chicken and egg situation others can't because of their exposure.
Its another situation like StackOverflow where they can tackle chicken and egg situation others can't because of their exposure.
Not just exposure, but exposure to the right two communities: many designers follow them, and many coders. These groups tend not to hang out (like biz and coder guys don't...). If there aren't any other intersections, it's a unique competitive advantage.
Perhaps the trick is also in knowing what you got; and what problems others have got.
hmmm... I do wonder if some kind of specific advertising like this was a thought very early on for them when they started dedicating themselves to blogging, speaking to build an audience, as a financial rationalization of what they wanted to do anyway. :-)
Perhaps the trick is also in knowing what you got; and what problems others have got.
hmmm... I do wonder if some kind of specific advertising like this was a thought very early on for them when they started dedicating themselves to blogging, speaking to build an audience, as a financial rationalization of what they wanted to do anyway. :-)
Yes, they will get sign-ups because designers and coders know about them. But if I went to ANY of my web design clients from the last 7 years, I would have to say that maybe 1% or less of them EVER heard of 37Signals.
That being said, it looks to me like a bust in the making because if only other designers are looking at your $100 per month "ad", then it's actually working against you.
That being said, it looks to me like a bust in the making because if only other designers are looking at your $100 per month "ad", then it's actually working against you.
I was thinking that coders need designers; but you're saying that, in fact, clients are neither.
hmm.. I bet that some coders do need designers (e.g. if the coder was hired first), but it's probably a tiny tiny fraction of all clients.
hmm.. I bet that some coders do need designers (e.g. if the coder was hired first), but it's probably a tiny tiny fraction of all clients.
That helps them get exposure, but it does not guarantee long-term success.
Besides, 37signals weren't born with their readership, they built it.
Besides, 37signals weren't born with their readership, they built it.
Nothing guarantees long term success. The point is that part of their competitive advantage is 'being famous'. This doesn't look like a particularly difficult thing to code up, but as stated above, without that initial kick, it would likely not go anywhere.
Also, I don't think the difficulty of coding something up has any real baring on how well it does.
If they make a small fortune from this, it'll be because the having the pro account brings a lot more than $99 to the designer; i.e. because of the value of the service provided, not the cost of signing up.
Because if the service doesn't bring the value, nobody is going to continue to pay for it in the long run.
Because if the service doesn't bring the value, nobody is going to continue to pay for it in the long run.
And the overloading of the name continues...
(see http://haystacksearch.org/ for example)
(see http://haystacksearch.org/ for example)
I must admit I can't help feel a little cynical about this project.
If an unknown company had launched this website I doubt it would have made anyone's radar, let alone have found a willing group of companies to pay $100/month. If it only works because 37 Signals made it and promoted it (as opposed to being an elegant solution to a problem) is it not a little exploitative?
Haystack's simplicity comes from a dearth of functionality and a small number of users -- neither of these are sustainable in the medium-term for the project to remain viable in its market (which, despite 37 Signal's claims, is pretty well serviced).
They risk damaging their brand by creating a feature-light product that doesn't exhibit any capability to grow beyond a small number of portfolios. They could well find an increasingly dissatisfied group of customers demanding features and results for their $100/month. It will be interesting to see how they keep these people happy while continuing to look after their other interests.
If an unknown company had launched this website I doubt it would have made anyone's radar, let alone have found a willing group of companies to pay $100/month. If it only works because 37 Signals made it and promoted it (as opposed to being an elegant solution to a problem) is it not a little exploitative?
Haystack's simplicity comes from a dearth of functionality and a small number of users -- neither of these are sustainable in the medium-term for the project to remain viable in its market (which, despite 37 Signal's claims, is pretty well serviced).
They risk damaging their brand by creating a feature-light product that doesn't exhibit any capability to grow beyond a small number of portfolios. They could well find an increasingly dissatisfied group of customers demanding features and results for their $100/month. It will be interesting to see how they keep these people happy while continuing to look after their other interests.
> If an unknown company had launched this website I doubt it would have made anyone's radar
I think that's one of the perks of becoming successful ;) The app rides on the fame that comes with Basecamp's success and there's nothing wrong with that!
I agree, though, that US$99 is quite pricey considering that you'll still be a needle in a haystack (albeit a smaller haystack). If I paid that rate, I'd want more tools for my profile of clients to narrow down on me.
I think that's one of the perks of becoming successful ;) The app rides on the fame that comes with Basecamp's success and there's nothing wrong with that!
I agree, though, that US$99 is quite pricey considering that you'll still be a needle in a haystack (albeit a smaller haystack). If I paid that rate, I'd want more tools for my profile of clients to narrow down on me.
Assuming your exposure on Haystack brought you business worth substantially more than $99 a month, why ought you be in a position to demand anything at all?
Compared to our jobs board, Haystack is actually overflowing with features. The jobs board has been around for two years, made over a million dollars in revenue, and continues to do very well.
People will pay for Haystack if it works for them. Just like people have paid and continue to pay for the 37signals job board. Both applications work because we have a very targeted audience that's a perfect fit for them.
This is in part what we mean by "Build An Audience". We've spent 10 years doing that at 37signals.
People will pay for Haystack if it works for them. Just like people have paid and continue to pay for the 37signals job board. Both applications work because we have a very targeted audience that's a perfect fit for them.
This is in part what we mean by "Build An Audience". We've spent 10 years doing that at 37signals.
If you're dissatisfied with the service, why just not stop paying for it? Isn't that so much easier than getting all upset and demanding things?
Sure, take your ball and go home.
I'm not dissatisfied, just seems like a slightly opportunistic project that has backlash potential.
I'm not dissatisfied, just seems like a slightly opportunistic project that has backlash potential.
Can web programmers get in on this? What do I put for a picture if I mostly do back-end work?
>What does your work looks like?
And did you proofread it?
And did you proofread it?
Will there eventually be a way to separate out folks who just do design (static pages, etc.) vs. folks who've designed actual web apps? Maybe tags or something would help.
A better filter than just "Other Cities" would be nice.
Agree. We're working on that. Stay tuned.
I'm surprised that "Austin" isn't on the list of cities.
Yes and what about other countries?
Too bad it doesn't also target web developers.
Seems like a market opportunity to me. How would a developer best pimp their wares?
Screenshots of sites they programmed wouldn't be as useful as they are for designers. Clients wouldn't understand code snippets...
Screenshots of sites they programmed wouldn't be as useful as they are for designers. Clients wouldn't understand code snippets...
A developer pimps his wares by 1) still having a portfolio of sites they've worked on, 2) being able to have a reasonable conversation, and 3) being competitive on price.
You have no idea how goddamn hard it is to find developers - they're generally terrible at any semblence of marketing. And I say this as someone who spent over $100,000 on a web development firm for my startup before I was able to recruit an internal team. Everyone knows about Pivotal Labs, but after that, it's all-but-impossible to know where to look.
You have no idea how goddamn hard it is to find developers - they're generally terrible at any semblence of marketing. And I say this as someone who spent over $100,000 on a web development firm for my startup before I was able to recruit an internal team. Everyone knows about Pivotal Labs, but after that, it's all-but-impossible to know where to look.
Funny you should say that. How would developers market themselves? Generally speaking.
I tried some Google adwords for my freelance services and it was money down the drain. Granted, I am a lone freelancer so most clients would be looking for firms for their larger projects. But I would still be interested in the answer.
I tried some Google adwords for my freelance services and it was money down the drain. Granted, I am a lone freelancer so most clients would be looking for firms for their larger projects. But I would still be interested in the answer.
Pivotal Labs?
Looks like [1] they're a web design firm that's created web sites for twitter, Urban Dictionary, Alexa, and Best Buy.
[1] http://pivotallabs.com/clients
[1] http://pivotallabs.com/clients
[deleted]
I'm curious as to how they picked the list of cities. By population?
Initially, yes. We picked the top cities by population in the US. We're going to change that shortly, though, so it's based on the number of firms in those cities. That way London or Berlin or Tokyo or whatever can bubble up on the list if there's a large number of firms listing from there.
have always wanted to build something like this
With web design, you can very quickly scroll through a lot of portfolios and find a style you like. That wouldn't work at all with web developers and backend code.
We're going to be launching the index page shortly and it'll become even clearer why this form only works for visual works.