Properly Molding the Gamer Child(jeff-vogel.blogspot.com)
jeff-vogel.blogspot.com
Properly Molding the Gamer Child
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/09/properly-molding-gamer-child.html
7 comments
As a 14 year old guild leader you're directing a group of 12 to 50 year olds. I don't know exactly what that does to a person, but my feeling is that it's beneficial.
Holy crap can I offer some counterexamples. Some of which would skirt the boundaries of work-safety, such as the 14-year-old raid GM on Earthen Ring who reportedly made women engage in cyber-sex with him in exchange for privileges. Not at all limited to his own age group; the internet is good at effacing such distinctions.
I agree that many teenagers can handle responsibility sooner than western culture currently assumes -- but there must be oversight and consequences even then. The highest levels of MMO gameplay/politics, on the other hand, are pure Lord of the Flies territory.
Holy crap can I offer some counterexamples. Some of which would skirt the boundaries of work-safety, such as the 14-year-old raid GM on Earthen Ring who reportedly made women engage in cyber-sex with him in exchange for privileges. Not at all limited to his own age group; the internet is good at effacing such distinctions.
I agree that many teenagers can handle responsibility sooner than western culture currently assumes -- but there must be oversight and consequences even then. The highest levels of MMO gameplay/politics, on the other hand, are pure Lord of the Flies territory.
Sims Online had a big cybersex brothel problem* for... well, always. Since you can convert virtual currencies into "real" currencies, they had a situation where presumably underage players were literally being paid for their services, through their (EA's) service. The girl leading the ring, which grew into a pretty weird organized crime thing, was 14. I'm not finding the paper I'm looking for right now, but I think it was by Peter Ludlow if interested. If she'd chosen to cash out before the game economy crashed, she would have been an extremely well paid lady.
* A problem for their media image. Presumably added an element of stickiness to the game that wasn't too bad on the bottom line. Also, a pun!
* A problem for their media image. Presumably added an element of stickiness to the game that wasn't too bad on the bottom line. Also, a pun!
After a bit of searching, I found this link...both interesting and disturbing at the same time. Turns out that the "girl" that led the ring was actually an adolescent male:
http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/feature/2003/12/12/sims_onli...
http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/feature/2003/12/12/sims_onli...
Second Life is a cybersex brothel.
I have to agree with you here. There are definitely extremes like this around.
Extremes aside though, that 14 year old GM is probably spending a fairly significant amount of time in the game. No doubt there's plenty to learn in an MMO social environment, but there's also plenty to learn in any team environment like sports.
There's also quite a bit of evidence that MMOs are addictive. Since most are based on an achievement system, they give the player a sense of accomplishment but also means time spent away from the game is time the character isn't progressing.
It comes down to moderation and supervision. If video games become the babysitter because you believe it's a safe learning environment for them to spend hours on end, then you're fooling yourself.
Pretty much anything is unhealthy when unmoderated, whether it's involvement in video games or sports.
The phrase tank an instance for daddy makes me think daddy has an online gaming addiction and rather than adapt his habits for the sake of his kids, he's involving his kids in gaming to feed his own habit. That may be a little harsh, but it didn't sound great to me.
Extremes aside though, that 14 year old GM is probably spending a fairly significant amount of time in the game. No doubt there's plenty to learn in an MMO social environment, but there's also plenty to learn in any team environment like sports.
There's also quite a bit of evidence that MMOs are addictive. Since most are based on an achievement system, they give the player a sense of accomplishment but also means time spent away from the game is time the character isn't progressing.
It comes down to moderation and supervision. If video games become the babysitter because you believe it's a safe learning environment for them to spend hours on end, then you're fooling yourself.
Pretty much anything is unhealthy when unmoderated, whether it's involvement in video games or sports.
The phrase tank an instance for daddy makes me think daddy has an online gaming addiction and rather than adapt his habits for the sake of his kids, he's involving his kids in gaming to feed his own habit. That may be a little harsh, but it didn't sound great to me.
"As soon as I approached, the "victim" drew his weapon."
Yeah, that's why it is a shame that most newer MMORPGs seem to have opted for the "no PKilling allowed" approach. I also thought UO offered some nice learning experiences.
Yeah, that's why it is a shame that most newer MMORPGs seem to have opted for the "no PKilling allowed" approach. I also thought UO offered some nice learning experiences.
I mus ask, what was the learning experience? I never played UO, but it sounds like there's no consequences for "immoral" actions, so while it might be fun to turn against your savior, it hardly applies to any real-life experience (hopefully :-).
(edited for totally misreading your question. i still go off on a bit of a tangent. apologies)
The game doesn't stop you from committing crimes, but it does mark you as a criminal and keep a rough record of your deeds, so other players [can] change the way they treat you. The learning experience for me is: do I walk into a potential trap to try and save someone who might be a victim, or is it better to walk away safely and maybe let them get murdered. I gain nothing but a sense of moral right by helping and risk losing a lot. The learning experience for the tricky murderers is: was making that guy sad worth the stuff I got?
Everything your character is carrying is lost when you die (and consequently gained by the murderer). So you're losing time, which is essentially the real currency of MMOs. You also have to wander around as a ghost (yes) until you find a friendly player who has invested in the skills needed to understand ghosts (really) and will then take the time to resurrect you (yup). If you're in the wilderness without friends, you can literally be wandering around incorporeal, haunting rabbits or whatever, for hours.
To put the game rules in perspective, you can more or less freely kill anyone you meet. Your safety is maintained by keeping a group of friends who can warn you of impending threats and who will gather together to defend themselves (and hunt down criminals) when necessary. Certain regions of the world were essentially instant death zones, and in other areas the most powerful groups maintained somewhat arbitrary laws with a strict death penalty.
One group of murderers was continuously causing me problems as a young player. I was frustrated to keep losing my brand new armor. It turns out they murder anyone wearing armor in their neighborhood to weed out more powerful players so very new players have a safe, non-crowded place to start hunting.
The game doesn't stop you from committing crimes, but it does mark you as a criminal and keep a rough record of your deeds, so other players [can] change the way they treat you. The learning experience for me is: do I walk into a potential trap to try and save someone who might be a victim, or is it better to walk away safely and maybe let them get murdered. I gain nothing but a sense of moral right by helping and risk losing a lot. The learning experience for the tricky murderers is: was making that guy sad worth the stuff I got?
Everything your character is carrying is lost when you die (and consequently gained by the murderer). So you're losing time, which is essentially the real currency of MMOs. You also have to wander around as a ghost (yes) until you find a friendly player who has invested in the skills needed to understand ghosts (really) and will then take the time to resurrect you (yup). If you're in the wilderness without friends, you can literally be wandering around incorporeal, haunting rabbits or whatever, for hours.
To put the game rules in perspective, you can more or less freely kill anyone you meet. Your safety is maintained by keeping a group of friends who can warn you of impending threats and who will gather together to defend themselves (and hunt down criminals) when necessary. Certain regions of the world were essentially instant death zones, and in other areas the most powerful groups maintained somewhat arbitrary laws with a strict death penalty.
One group of murderers was continuously causing me problems as a young player. I was frustrated to keep losing my brand new armor. It turns out they murder anyone wearing armor in their neighborhood to weed out more powerful players so very new players have a safe, non-crowded place to start hunting.
Compared to other MMORPGs, UO did not protect you as much. So other players could trap you and kill you, and then rob your stuff. In modern MMORPGs usually even if Player Killing is allowed, they still don't get your stuff.
Learning, well, for example not to be so trusting and to take care of myself :-) I fell in a similar trap once: I was already quite low on hit points, but some guy convinced me to still fight some monster, as he would be by my side. Of course then he robbed me. Not sure if I really learned, but the lesson is clear - if you are wounded, take care of yourself.
Even though it was just a game, I can tell you that such experiences would sting in UO :-)
Learning, well, for example not to be so trusting and to take care of myself :-) I fell in a similar trap once: I was already quite low on hit points, but some guy convinced me to still fight some monster, as he would be by my side. Of course then he robbed me. Not sure if I really learned, but the lesson is clear - if you are wounded, take care of yourself.
Even though it was just a game, I can tell you that such experiences would sting in UO :-)
while it might be fun to turn against your savior, it hardly applies to any real-life experience (hopefully :-)
I'm guessing that you don't know the reason cops hate taking domestic-violence calls?
I'm guessing that you don't know the reason cops hate taking domestic-violence calls?
It's funny that you mention Ultima Online. Personally, I had the same sort of experience, but I was the 15-18 year old guild lackey. It certainly breeds an awareness of the importance of teamwork and leadership since not everyone is skilled in everything. The game is built for working together, and going it alone has some serious consequences (read: death/looting) but you get a do-over every time. Giving kids the ability to learn these things with the option to try again is far better than the permanence of reality.
I would argue that the permanence of reality is what makes a lesson stick. Without real consequences your investment is minimal, even as a child.
I think it's good idea to give your kids the chance to take real risks, with the consequences becoming progressively more meaningful (obviously you don't start with anything too harsh).
I think it's good idea to give your kids the chance to take real risks, with the consequences becoming progressively more meaningful (obviously you don't start with anything too harsh).
I have a pretty good sense about how I feel about pretending to be someone's friend for 6 months so I can gain access to their house and subsequently steal everything they own. Playing out that scenario was useful to me. But I wouldn't want my [hypothetical] kid to make a friend with the eventual intent of stealing their toys and never talking to them again.
There are a huge variety of moral questions. If there's a safe real-world parallel, I agree that's probably a better lesson, but games can probably be designed to help fill in a bunch of gaps.
There are a huge variety of moral questions. If there's a safe real-world parallel, I agree that's probably a better lesson, but games can probably be designed to help fill in a bunch of gaps.
I wouldn't want my kid doing either. I'm not so sure that the virtual scenario is any better than the real world one. You're still dealing with other people and in this example there's still a victim.
An MMO is still a social environment where you interact with other people. Those interactions can play out pretty much the same way they do in real life. The only difference is the protection of anonymity... which in my opinion is actually a negative difference. It relaxes people sense of social responsibility.
I won't be teaching my kids that it's OK to be a complete douchebag online simply because no one knows who you really are... and if I ever catch a kid of mine doing something like that, you can bet your ass there'll be some very real world consequences.
An MMO is still a social environment where you interact with other people. Those interactions can play out pretty much the same way they do in real life. The only difference is the protection of anonymity... which in my opinion is actually a negative difference. It relaxes people sense of social responsibility.
I won't be teaching my kids that it's OK to be a complete douchebag online simply because no one knows who you really are... and if I ever catch a kid of mine doing something like that, you can bet your ass there'll be some very real world consequences.
"Pokemon provide fulfillment to every human being's basic desire to have an army of monsters."
alright then...
alright then...
Keep in mind jeff is the guy who wrote geneforge (http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/geneforge/index.html).
I'll be honest, any blog post containing the phrase "It is in this way that I outsource my disciplinary duties to Nintendo." will get an upvote from me. I urge you not to abuse this.
I just had a daughter born yesterday morning, so this article made me very happy to think that one day I can hone her gaming instincts into a formidable weapon.
Congratulations :)
I recommend this guy's baby diaries if you have the time: http://www.ironycentral.com/babymain.html
I just found them through the linked blog entry, and they're hilarious.
I recommend this guy's baby diaries if you have the time: http://www.ironycentral.com/babymain.html
I just found them through the linked blog entry, and they're hilarious.
Even though ...?
As a kid I was fascinated about historical games (even loose ones), like Civilization, the Total War series, Europa Universalis, Pharaoh, Age of Empires, etc.
Of course many of these games only have a loose semblance of reality associated with them, but I was aware of that! I learned a lot from those games, and more importantly, I was inspired to learn a lot more.
I can only speak for myself, but my world-view was significantly impacted by the history presented in these games, and the accompanying reading they provoked.
Of course many of these games only have a loose semblance of reality associated with them, but I was aware of that! I learned a lot from those games, and more importantly, I was inspired to learn a lot more.
I can only speak for myself, but my world-view was significantly impacted by the history presented in these games, and the accompanying reading they provoked.
Personally, I am very happy that my daughter hasn't expressed much interest in computer games. I would much rather she engaged in some archaic activies such as drawing, reading, playing outside.
I am speaking from a bitter experience. If not for 20+ years of computer gaming(from AppleII to Core2, single turn strategies countless MUDs, MMORPGs), I would probably be a better programmer or an investor(setting aside lessons learned trading in Everquest).
If you are prone to addictive behaviours, gaming is better than say smoking or drinking, but much preferable would be to channel ones energy into productive addictions(even lifting weights would be better).
I am speaking from a bitter experience. If not for 20+ years of computer gaming(from AppleII to Core2, single turn strategies countless MUDs, MMORPGs), I would probably be a better programmer or an investor(setting aside lessons learned trading in Everquest).
If you are prone to addictive behaviours, gaming is better than say smoking or drinking, but much preferable would be to channel ones energy into productive addictions(even lifting weights would be better).
Playing Risk (ok-a-board-game-but-still) told me early on that everything happens on several levels (strategic, tactic, emotional ect) and you have to keep an eye on all of them (if you want to win).
Try `Diplomacy' if you have enough time and people.
And don't mind losing a few friends.
(Yes, I've won several games of Diplomacy. The bitterness can last a while sometimes.)
(Yes, I've won several games of Diplomacy. The bitterness can last a while sometimes.)
I find it fascinating how much reputation and emotions carry over between games if you play with the same group regularly, and also at the house rules that develop.
For example, with my brothers and a few of their friends it is entirely expected that you will get stabbed in the back in a game if it helps the other guy win. There is a lot of guarding-our-flanks with that crowd. It's totally normal and expected, however some people have more of a reputation for it than others, which can lead to some players being unable to make any pacts without excessive bribery.
On the other hand, my current social peers are paragons of morality. If someone says something regarding the game, no matter how casually, they will be bound do that for a reasonable duration. Breaking this code creates a reputation which will carry over for the next few games and you'll find very few people willing to ally with you without stringent conditions.
Another odd example is playing multiplayer Magic: the Gathering. Throughout our time there have been a few decks that may not win often or quickly, but when they get going they become unstoppable, kill everyone in a single turn, or create a global effect that makes the game "unfun" for the other players such as destroying all their creatures and lands. Some of them have gotten such a reputation that certain players have only to play a certain spell on their first turn and the rest of the table will immediately focus on killing that one person first.
For example, with my brothers and a few of their friends it is entirely expected that you will get stabbed in the back in a game if it helps the other guy win. There is a lot of guarding-our-flanks with that crowd. It's totally normal and expected, however some people have more of a reputation for it than others, which can lead to some players being unable to make any pacts without excessive bribery.
On the other hand, my current social peers are paragons of morality. If someone says something regarding the game, no matter how casually, they will be bound do that for a reasonable duration. Breaking this code creates a reputation which will carry over for the next few games and you'll find very few people willing to ally with you without stringent conditions.
Another odd example is playing multiplayer Magic: the Gathering. Throughout our time there have been a few decks that may not win often or quickly, but when they get going they become unstoppable, kill everyone in a single turn, or create a global effect that makes the game "unfun" for the other players such as destroying all their creatures and lands. Some of them have gotten such a reputation that certain players have only to play a certain spell on their first turn and the rest of the table will immediately focus on killing that one person first.
> For example, with my brothers and a few of their friends it is entirely expected that you will get stabbed in the back in a game if it helps the other guy win.
My fiancée will always put the dagger in my back in games. That's love, I guess.
My fiancée will always put the dagger in my back in games. That's love, I guess.
If you really want to take down your socialising server...
take Junta http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/242
take Junta http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/242
Junta is good. Alas, I never played, only watched people play it on a Diplomacy convention. Too bad it takes nearly as long as Diplomacy.
If you want to lose your friends more quickly, you should try Kuhhandel (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1117). That's poor evil `attacking', bluffing and second-guessing. (Unfortunately alliance are not common, so you do not get to break your word and stab your friends. But still a good game. :)
If you want to lose your friends more quickly, you should try Kuhhandel (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1117). That's poor evil `attacking', bluffing and second-guessing. (Unfortunately alliance are not common, so you do not get to break your word and stab your friends. But still a good game. :)
You can play it online for free, not exactly the same as a face-to-face game, but close enough.
The communities are generally pretty small.
My experience in playdiplomacy.com is that it doesn't feel like a bunch of strangers after a couple of games, especially if you go to the forums - since playing diplomacy (with good players) normally involves quite a lot of talking, you can make somewhat more significant ties than in other online games.
The communities are generally pretty small.
My experience in playdiplomacy.com is that it doesn't feel like a bunch of strangers after a couple of games, especially if you go to the forums - since playing diplomacy (with good players) normally involves quite a lot of talking, you can make somewhat more significant ties than in other online games.
I play on the www.diplom.org, which has also a nice zine with a lot of interesting articles. (And gorgeous .ps-maps)
Perhaps we should organize a Hacker game once? Even if we can't find seven diplomats (+ a GM), there are interesting variants for a smaller number of players. Like `Hundred' or `Sail Ho!'.
Ido, what do you think of this article: [http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1997R/Windsor/lawdip.html]?
Perhaps we should organize a Hacker game once? Even if we can't find seven diplomats (+ a GM), there are interesting variants for a smaller number of players. Like `Hundred' or `Sail Ho!'.
Ido, what do you think of this article: [http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1997R/Windsor/lawdip.html]?
I think it's too long for me to read at the moment ;)
For a lot of the web based ones (including the site I mentioned) you do not need a GM, it is arbitrated by the computer.
It also works a lot quicker and is more user friendly than PBEM.
For a lot of the web based ones (including the site I mentioned) you do not need a GM, it is arbitrated by the computer.
It also works a lot quicker and is more user friendly than PBEM.
I play in communities where computer arbitration is the norm. Still they require a GM (and I think rightly so) to guide the game, search for replacements and answer questions. (And it is still technically PBEM, because the server uses email as the primary interface.)
However the typical workload for a GM is far lower than without computer arbitration, of course. And you can read all the negotiations, if you want to.
However the typical workload for a GM is far lower than without computer arbitration, of course. And you can read all the negotiations, if you want to.
Kids can safely experiment with "right" and "wrong" (stealing, murdering, protecting, sacrifice) without permanent marks. You are damaging someone and suffering loss, but you've all opted in. I once leapt into combat to help someone fleeing from a murderer. As soon as I approached, the "victim" drew his weapon. They killed me and divided up my belongings. Real life doesn't offer many chances to try different options in that scenario.
Also, the typical authority structure of growing up (which is age-centric) is reversed. Younger people have less obligations, so generally play more, become more powerful, and end up in the leadership roles. As a 14 year old guild leader you're directing a group of 12 to 50 year olds. I don't know exactly what that does to a person, but my feeling is that it's beneficial.
I haven't really played MMOs in years. I keep an eye on them, and I've been disappointed by the shift to remove antisocial play by adding new game rules and protecting players from loss. It's messing up the risk-reward ratio and removes the chance for social and moral experimentation that was so valuable to me.