HN Meta: A Eulogy of Sorts.
6 comments
What a sad day.
Agreed.
I've always thought that this community was something different. I love coming here; the intelligence; the discussion; the connectedness.
Me too.
I don't personally know a single one of you, but I've admired many of you in your ability to form smart and reasoned arguments about many things.
And I've admired and enjoyed the many discussions with you too, David.
Today I learned that you're not much more than any other community, despite your qualities. Today I learned that the same thing that destroyed reddit will likely destroy you
Here's where I start to disagree with you. I think you're overreacting.
as the site grows, the community fragments, cliques form, and conflict begins
That's not my take on today at all. Just a bunch of people letting off steam. Don't let yourself make it into anything bigger.
I was hoping that pg would be able to create something that could buck the trend
I believe he has. Don't let one bad day change your mind about that. OTOH, look at the bright side. I believe a day like today will provide pg with plenty of data for mods that will actually make the community stronger.
I won't say good-bye or promise never to post again or any of that crap
Good. See you tomorrow.
this small event is a rather depressing addition to my experiences of the day
Whenever it gets that bad, I tell myself that it's time to log off and get a life. Today was just one of those days.
I honestly started to believe that this community was different
It is. Have a little faith, brother.
Agreed.
I've always thought that this community was something different. I love coming here; the intelligence; the discussion; the connectedness.
Me too.
I don't personally know a single one of you, but I've admired many of you in your ability to form smart and reasoned arguments about many things.
And I've admired and enjoyed the many discussions with you too, David.
Today I learned that you're not much more than any other community, despite your qualities. Today I learned that the same thing that destroyed reddit will likely destroy you
Here's where I start to disagree with you. I think you're overreacting.
as the site grows, the community fragments, cliques form, and conflict begins
That's not my take on today at all. Just a bunch of people letting off steam. Don't let yourself make it into anything bigger.
I was hoping that pg would be able to create something that could buck the trend
I believe he has. Don't let one bad day change your mind about that. OTOH, look at the bright side. I believe a day like today will provide pg with plenty of data for mods that will actually make the community stronger.
I won't say good-bye or promise never to post again or any of that crap
Good. See you tomorrow.
this small event is a rather depressing addition to my experiences of the day
Whenever it gets that bad, I tell myself that it's time to log off and get a life. Today was just one of those days.
I honestly started to believe that this community was different
It is. Have a little faith, brother.
I am seriously not being facetious: I like the Erlang articles.
If you don't like them, don't read them. Come back tomorrow, they'll probably be gone by then. If you don't think they're the "right" kinds of articles for HN, well that's just one person's opinion.
If you are ascribing malicious intent to the people submitting and upvoting these articles....well, I don't know what to say. Maybe lighten up a little?
If you don't like them, don't read them. Come back tomorrow, they'll probably be gone by then. If you don't think they're the "right" kinds of articles for HN, well that's just one person's opinion.
If you are ascribing malicious intent to the people submitting and upvoting these articles....well, I don't know what to say. Maybe lighten up a little?
It seems that despite the best intentions, communities naturally self destruct
On the one hand I think you should qualify this with "online" communities, but on the other hand, nothing is forever. Online communities are just a little more transient than physical ones.
I honestly started to believe that this community was different, but now I see it's just like every other community, and will more than likely follow the established trend.
There's another phenomenon which grips people of all types, but is especially prevalent in online communities: nostalgia. Inevitably some component of the early membership will identify changes they don't like, complain vocally, and thus the mythologizing of the early days begins. My point is not whether this is right or wrong, but that whether there is substantive change or not these laments would inevitably occur due to the emotional factor.
What I find funny is that old folks reminisce about what life was like 50-60 years ago when the world really was indistinguishable from what it is today. But the gen-y is fond of reminiscing about how things were 2 years ago. "Remember back before Larry King was on Twitter?"
"Yeah, them were the days"
On the one hand I think you should qualify this with "online" communities, but on the other hand, nothing is forever. Online communities are just a little more transient than physical ones.
I honestly started to believe that this community was different, but now I see it's just like every other community, and will more than likely follow the established trend.
There's another phenomenon which grips people of all types, but is especially prevalent in online communities: nostalgia. Inevitably some component of the early membership will identify changes they don't like, complain vocally, and thus the mythologizing of the early days begins. My point is not whether this is right or wrong, but that whether there is substantive change or not these laments would inevitably occur due to the emotional factor.
What I find funny is that old folks reminisce about what life was like 50-60 years ago when the world really was indistinguishable from what it is today. But the gen-y is fond of reminiscing about how things were 2 years ago. "Remember back before Larry King was on Twitter?"
"Yeah, them were the days"
The highest-ranked Erlang articles have only about 100 votes. It's just so easy for one group of people to vote 20 or 30 articles onto the front page. There may be more users who'd rather see something else, but (a) there are no downvotes on posts; (b) highly-scored articles can no longer be flagged down by the community; and (c) it's a lot more work to find and upvote "signal" than it is to increase the flood of noise.
So I choose to see this as an overly-successful protest by (I hope) a minority of the community. After all, the typical "best" articles have over 200 points, and the original _why thread had almost 500.
So I choose to see this as an overly-successful protest by (I hope) a minority of the community. After all, the typical "best" articles have over 200 points, and the original _why thread had almost 500.
Anyone posting a new variation of this complaint should explain why they are right to say the sky is falling now, when the lineage of people proclaiming the same thing goes back almost as far as HN itself.
There is always a tipping point. These "purges" seem to be great examples of tipping points. Are they? I'm not sure, but they are certainly more pronounced than any previous issue.
I think that any time things called "purges" start happening in a social context, it's a bad sign.
what exactly is the problem, or an instance of the problem?
and wtf are there so many erlang posts on the front page (again)?
and wtf are there so many erlang posts on the front page (again)?
I think you just answered your first question with your second. I guess the difference between my take on it and the OP's is that I didn't have shiny hopes that HN would turn out to be exempt from typical human nature in the long run.
I'm still wondering exactly what the problem is. What's wrong with a bit of an Internet flash mob?
I thought part of the reason people were eulogizing _why is that he injected a bit of whimsy into a field that's often far too serious. I don't see any problem with HN being covered with Erlang articles for one or two days of the year, just like I don't see any problem with Google including easter eggs in their product, or Slashdot being covered in fake stories on April Fools Day.
For those of you shaking your heads in disappointment - how do you feel about urban flash mobs like, say, Critical Mass? Improv Anywhere? I guess I just don't see why this represents the downfall of HN.
I thought part of the reason people were eulogizing _why is that he injected a bit of whimsy into a field that's often far too serious. I don't see any problem with HN being covered with Erlang articles for one or two days of the year, just like I don't see any problem with Google including easter eggs in their product, or Slashdot being covered in fake stories on April Fools Day.
For those of you shaking your heads in disappointment - how do you feel about urban flash mobs like, say, Critical Mass? Improv Anywhere? I guess I just don't see why this represents the downfall of HN.
Urban flash mobs exploit one of the major weaknesses of cities, which, arguably, is their major strength: economy of scale through density.
Personally, I (and mammals of all other species) need more space.
Personally, I (and mammals of all other species) need more space.
I believe a certain segment of the community has decided to "purge" another segment of the community from existence because their articles (the _why ones I think) are "not relevant".
Why this group can't figure out to use the flag button is beyond me.
The symptom is the Erlang abundance.
Why this group can't figure out to use the flag button is beyond me.
The symptom is the Erlang abundance.
I don't see it like that at all...
I see it more that the _why articles had their run, Erlang is having its run now, and in a day or two, something else will capture the HN fancy. There've been long runs of related topics on HN before. Erlang is a bit of an in-joke on HN because there was a similar run last March. It's no worse than the "Paul Graham Ate Breakfast" article that got several hundred points a couple years ago.
I see it more that the _why articles had their run, Erlang is having its run now, and in a day or two, something else will capture the HN fancy. There've been long runs of related topics on HN before. Erlang is a bit of an in-joke on HN because there was a similar run last March. It's no worse than the "Paul Graham Ate Breakfast" article that got several hundred points a couple years ago.
Aside from yourself and a few other notables, the Erlang explosion has it source with new users: under 500 karma. This is not the established community; this is a new segment of users that - with due respect - has no business telling the rest of us what does or doesn't qualify for a quality article. When they can use the flag button, they can feel free to contribute.
_why articles had their run, Erlang is having its run now, and in a day or two, something else will capture the HN fancy
Um, no. And you know this, don't you. I was no fan of any of the _why articles, in fact I think I only up-voted 1. The Erlang submissions are a direct intent to flood the site with seemingly "worthy" articles in an attempt to drown out other users. It's an attack by one clique against another, and it's something that I would think wouldn't have a place here on this website.
It's no worse than the "Paul Graham Ate Breakfast" article Except that that article was 1) a single article 2) making the exact opposite argument that you're making.
_why articles had their run, Erlang is having its run now, and in a day or two, something else will capture the HN fancy
Um, no. And you know this, don't you. I was no fan of any of the _why articles, in fact I think I only up-voted 1. The Erlang submissions are a direct intent to flood the site with seemingly "worthy" articles in an attempt to drown out other users. It's an attack by one clique against another, and it's something that I would think wouldn't have a place here on this website.
It's no worse than the "Paul Graham Ate Breakfast" article Except that that article was 1) a single article 2) making the exact opposite argument that you're making.
I posted one of the Erlang things (the second, I believe). Mind you, I certainly wouldn't have done that had there been 13 or even 5 up there already (and my post actually was of something new). Anyway, I think you're making a mistake to personify this into a "segment of users" trying to tell the rest what to do. My guess it was a lot more random than that.
The real lesson of HN, and the thing that prevents events like this from knocking it off the rails, is its aggressive but unobtrusive moderation. When chaotic stuff happens that gets out of control, it gets corrected. This is also the answer to your human-nature-based critique of the community (i.e. left to its own devices, it would degrade in the way you describe, but it isn't left to its own devices).
Edit: now that I think of it, maybe HN is kind of an instance of the "libertarian paternalism" that's recently become popular in policy thinking (as in the book Nudge).
The real lesson of HN, and the thing that prevents events like this from knocking it off the rails, is its aggressive but unobtrusive moderation. When chaotic stuff happens that gets out of control, it gets corrected. This is also the answer to your human-nature-based critique of the community (i.e. left to its own devices, it would degrade in the way you describe, but it isn't left to its own devices).
Edit: now that I think of it, maybe HN is kind of an instance of the "libertarian paternalism" that's recently become popular in policy thinking (as in the book Nudge).
>and wtf are there so many erlang posts on the front page (again)?
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=775727
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=775727
I've always thought that this community was something different. I love coming here; the intelligence; the discussion; the connectedness.
I don't personally know a single one of you, but I've admired many of you in your ability to form smart and reasoned arguments about many things.
Today however, you've shown me something else. Today I learned that you're not much more than any other community, despite your qualities. Today I learned that the same thing that destroyed reddit will likely destroy you - that as the site grows, the community fragments, cliques form, and conflict begins. In this race to assert opinion, good people withdraw and are replaced by those of lessor quality. The whole thing slides downhill like some sort of slow moving train wreck.
It seems that despite the best intentions, communities naturally self destruct. I was hoping that pg would be able to create something that could buck the trend, but it seems that this isn't the case. We are what we are, and we will act as we always have.
I won't say good-bye or promise never to post again or any of that crap that you normally get as reaction to events like this. What I will say is this small event is a rather depressing addition to my experiences of the day.
I honestly started to believe that this community was different, but now I see it's just like every other community, and will more than likely follow the established trend.