IE 10′s "Do-Not-Track" default dies quick death(arstechnica.com)
arstechnica.com
IE 10′s "Do-Not-Track" default dies quick death
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/ie-10s-do-not-track-default-dies-quick-death/
5 comments
For posterity, HN discussion on an earlier submission
(same story, just linked directly to Wired):
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4076910
Very strange story spin:
Microsoft tries to do the right thing, then Ars+DoNotTrack working group makes them look like the bad guys....
Microsoft tries to do the right thing, then Ars+DoNotTrack working group makes them look like the bad guys....
The problem is that DNT is not a technical measure like pop-up blocking, where enabling it by default is guaranteed to have an effect. Instead, it's a voluntary measure whose implementation depends mainly on the advertising networks rather than the browser vendors.
So if we want DNT to have any effect, it must be something tracking companies will consider a meaningful signal of user preference. The risk in enabling it by default (for a browser that will eventually be used by 20-30% of the web) is that tracking companies would increasingly ignore it -- even the ones who have pledged support for DNT in its current form as implemented by Firefox/Opera/Safari.
So if we want DNT to have any effect, it must be something tracking companies will consider a meaningful signal of user preference. The risk in enabling it by default (for a browser that will eventually be used by 20-30% of the web) is that tracking companies would increasingly ignore it -- even the ones who have pledged support for DNT in its current form as implemented by Firefox/Opera/Safari.
Well then. There should be a law.
It seems like the right thing, but it's not. By ignoring an important part of the spec, they put advertiser adoption of DNT in jeopardy. And it's not like it's for benevolent reasons; imagine how much they'd like Google to lose one of its core strengths.
I couldnt agree more. It is not often that I say Microsoft tried to do the right thing, but here they did! Users are customers and customers should have the right to OPT-IN to advertising tracking. However, some idiot in his/her infinite wisdom is now forcing us to OPT-OUT.
I rarely applaud MS, but IMO? BRAVO MS!!!
I rarely applaud MS, but IMO? BRAVO MS!!!
How could OPT-IN have pragmatically worked?
This was my exact thought as well. Just because the ad industry doesn't want this to happen, doesn't mean the apps implementing it should get slammed. IE has done great strides in the past few years.
But by turning it on by default, they automatically kill it. Not a good thing! (Consider this, Mozilla created it, and they are against turning it on by default. There's a signal there).
Consider this, Mozilla continues to exist because Google pays them millions. There's a warning sign there.
Firstly, this is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Secondly, Google pays Mozilla a fortune because Google won the war for that space with Microsoft. Mozilla has the significant upper-hand in the relationship (shown by how Mozilla was able to increase the payments from $100m to $300m) this year.
Firstly, this is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Nonsense. It was a direct response to a statement that intended to capture Mozilla's motivation - that their motivation is altruistic. The reality is that Mozilla receives millions from Google, itself a company that is under threat by enable-by-default DNT. Mozilla has a demonstrably massive conflict of interest regarding DNT.
As for your second point, it does not contradict the fact I stated: Mozilla still exists because of Google.
Nonsense. It was a direct response to a statement that intended to capture Mozilla's motivation - that their motivation is altruistic. The reality is that Mozilla receives millions from Google, itself a company that is under threat by enable-by-default DNT. Mozilla has a demonstrably massive conflict of interest regarding DNT.
As for your second point, it does not contradict the fact I stated: Mozilla still exists because of Google.
Indeed, you're right. It is relevant. However, I still disagree with your conclusion. I say this as someone who worked at Mozilla, and who knows a lot of Mozillians who have been there many years.
Mozila is a non-profit, and it has a mission. It exists to make the web a better place. It existed before Google, and it will exist after Google stops paying. As it happens, although Google's money has allowed Mozilla grow hugely, it has other revenues that would allow it to support a good sized staff.
The point I was making is that without Google, there is Microsoft, who are dying to make Bing a thing. Microsoft clearly offered way more than Google's old $100m, else how would the new deal be $300m.
Finally, enable-by-default DNT wouldn't kill anything except DNT. It is an optional protocol, no-one has to support it, and if it was enabled by default, no-one would.
Mozila is a non-profit, and it has a mission. It exists to make the web a better place. It existed before Google, and it will exist after Google stops paying. As it happens, although Google's money has allowed Mozilla grow hugely, it has other revenues that would allow it to support a good sized staff.
The point I was making is that without Google, there is Microsoft, who are dying to make Bing a thing. Microsoft clearly offered way more than Google's old $100m, else how would the new deal be $300m.
Finally, enable-by-default DNT wouldn't kill anything except DNT. It is an optional protocol, no-one has to support it, and if it was enabled by default, no-one would.
no-one has to support it
Which is why there should be a law.
It's actually outrageous. There's a law to prohibit unsolicited telephone calls - effectively a law to prohibit annoying people. But none for prohibiting companies from invading privacy by tracking online activity without explicit permission? Insane.
I have no tears for ad networks. They need to find a new business model or be fined into bankruptcy.
(That's my conclusion, BTW. The Mozilla stuff was simply a response to your Mozilla comments. I'm sure there are a lot of nice people at Mozilla. And Google. Irrelevant.)
[Mozilla] exists to make the web a better place.
If that were true, Mozilla would be lobbying for a law.
Which is why there should be a law.
It's actually outrageous. There's a law to prohibit unsolicited telephone calls - effectively a law to prohibit annoying people. But none for prohibiting companies from invading privacy by tracking online activity without explicit permission? Insane.
I have no tears for ad networks. They need to find a new business model or be fined into bankruptcy.
(That's my conclusion, BTW. The Mozilla stuff was simply a response to your Mozilla comments. I'm sure there are a lot of nice people at Mozilla. And Google. Irrelevant.)
[Mozilla] exists to make the web a better place.
If that were true, Mozilla would be lobbying for a law.
> Which is why there should be a law.
> It's actually outrageous. There's a law to prohibit unsolicited telephone calls. But none for prohibiting companies from invading privacy by tracking online activity without explicit permission? Insane.
I think the difference is that you choose which sites to go to. If you dont go to them, you dont get ads, and you're not tracked. I would consider it more like CC TV, or Safeway cards.
> I have no tears for ad networks. They need to find a new business model or be fined into bankruptcy.
While there has been a lot of scumbaggery by some large advertising networks, I think there is a place for ads. Certainly given I read a lot of content for "free" which is supported by ads.
> > [Mozilla] exists to make the web a better place. > If that were true, Mozilla would be lobbying for a law.
Try this: assume mozilla _is_ trying to make the web a better place, and now consider why they aren't lobbying for a law.
What I learned at Mozilla is that there are people there who have true vision about the future of the open web, tempered by a nuanced and pragmatic approach to ensuring it. I can't speak for them, but my impression is that destroying the ad industry is bad for the internet as a whole, and so not desirable.
I think the difference is that you choose which sites to go to. If you dont go to them, you dont get ads, and you're not tracked. I would consider it more like CC TV, or Safeway cards.
> I have no tears for ad networks. They need to find a new business model or be fined into bankruptcy.
While there has been a lot of scumbaggery by some large advertising networks, I think there is a place for ads. Certainly given I read a lot of content for "free" which is supported by ads.
> > [Mozilla] exists to make the web a better place. > If that were true, Mozilla would be lobbying for a law.
Try this: assume mozilla _is_ trying to make the web a better place, and now consider why they aren't lobbying for a law.
What I learned at Mozilla is that there are people there who have true vision about the future of the open web, tempered by a nuanced and pragmatic approach to ensuring it. I can't speak for them, but my impression is that destroying the ad industry is bad for the internet as a whole, and so not desirable.
I think the difference is that you choose which sites to go to.
That's not a difference. You choose to own a phone. You choose to leave your phone on the hook. If you don't own a phone, if you leave your phone off the hook, you won't get unsolicited calls. Further, you don't get to know which sites have ads before you go to them. And finally, a Safeway card doesn't know you walked into a 7-Eleven, or a bookstore, or attended a concert.
I think there is a place for ads.
No argument. Ad networks simply need to find a business model that doesn't depend on breaking a DNT law. It's their responsibility to do so if they elect to sell ads. Privacy should not be involuntarily sacrificed in order to support their business model.
assume mozilla _is_ trying to make the web a better place, and now consider why they aren't lobbying for a law.
OK. Because they lack sufficient intelligence. I doubt that is the case, so I'll revert to my view that Mozilla is not singularly focused on "what's best for the web".
Simply because Mozilla, or you, or I are unable to create a business model for ad networks that is not dependent on invasion of privacy, and simply because ad networks are disinclined to change their existing business model, does not mean a DNT law destroys ads. It is not Mozilla, or mine, or your responsibility to save ad networks that stubbornly refuse or are incapable of identifying a non-invasive business model. But it is Mozilla (the "what's best for the web" Mozilla, anyway) and mine and your responsibilities to oppose businesses and business models that invade privacy.
That's not a difference. You choose to own a phone. You choose to leave your phone on the hook. If you don't own a phone, if you leave your phone off the hook, you won't get unsolicited calls. Further, you don't get to know which sites have ads before you go to them. And finally, a Safeway card doesn't know you walked into a 7-Eleven, or a bookstore, or attended a concert.
I think there is a place for ads.
No argument. Ad networks simply need to find a business model that doesn't depend on breaking a DNT law. It's their responsibility to do so if they elect to sell ads. Privacy should not be involuntarily sacrificed in order to support their business model.
assume mozilla _is_ trying to make the web a better place, and now consider why they aren't lobbying for a law.
OK. Because they lack sufficient intelligence. I doubt that is the case, so I'll revert to my view that Mozilla is not singularly focused on "what's best for the web".
Simply because Mozilla, or you, or I are unable to create a business model for ad networks that is not dependent on invasion of privacy, and simply because ad networks are disinclined to change their existing business model, does not mean a DNT law destroys ads. It is not Mozilla, or mine, or your responsibility to save ad networks that stubbornly refuse or are incapable of identifying a non-invasive business model. But it is Mozilla (the "what's best for the web" Mozilla, anyway) and mine and your responsibilities to oppose businesses and business models that invade privacy.
> You choose to leave your phone on the hook.
This would be equivalent if the act of having a browser meant that the advertisers could interrupt you at any time your browser is open. That is not the case. Far from it.
> I'll revert to my view that Mozilla is not singularly focused on "what's best for the web".
You've ignored many other possibilities, such as the one I suggested in my last post. What evidence do you have to support your view?
This would be equivalent if the act of having a browser meant that the advertisers could interrupt you at any time your browser is open. That is not the case. Far from it.
> I'll revert to my view that Mozilla is not singularly focused on "what's best for the web".
You've ignored many other possibilities, such as the one I suggested in my last post. What evidence do you have to support your view?
This would be equivalent if the act of having a browser meant that the advertisers could interrupt you at any time your browser is open.
Exactly my point. There's a law that prohibits the relatively minor annoyance of being interrupted. But there is no law that prohibits the rather serious issue of privacy invasion.
If the law was necessary in the first case, where you could simply leave your phone off the hook to completely avoid being interrupted, there's no rational justification that the law is not also necessary in the second case, where, as you stated, you could (somehow!) pre-filter all your website usage to avoid having your privacy invaded.
(I'm done with the "is Mozilla run by Jesus" discussion - you have your opinion based on your view and I have a different opinion based on my view - I suspect neither will convince the other based on repetition of views.)
Exactly my point. There's a law that prohibits the relatively minor annoyance of being interrupted. But there is no law that prohibits the rather serious issue of privacy invasion.
If the law was necessary in the first case, where you could simply leave your phone off the hook to completely avoid being interrupted, there's no rational justification that the law is not also necessary in the second case, where, as you stated, you could (somehow!) pre-filter all your website usage to avoid having your privacy invaded.
(I'm done with the "is Mozilla run by Jesus" discussion - you have your opinion based on your view and I have a different opinion based on my view - I suspect neither will convince the other based on repetition of views.)
I just installed Firefox on Fedora 17 and found, to my surprise, that Do-No-Track was disabled by default.
That's a reach. How would the ad companies know if the user manually turned it on or off? Ars is claiming they'll completely ignore any DNT from IE?