Ask HN: Mac, Windows, Or Linux?
11 comments
1.5% FreeBSD?! I love this place.
I bet Windows is still the majority since HN is probably a big work-time hangout for the corporate drones ;)
I bet Windows is still the majority since HN is probably a big work-time hangout for the corporate drones ;)
Windows has also evolved into not a bad operating system. It gets a lot of bad press, but, as far as I can tell (I run linux) it is a quality piece of software.
Basically, MSFT realized that they need to compete, so they are doing so.
Basically, MSFT realized that they need to compete, so they are doing so.
It's not that Windows (XP SP2+) is bad per-se, it's just that the alternatives (OSX, Linux, BSD, etc.) are much better for nearly all use cases of the technically savvy. Unless you're doing Windows development, of course. Or own a Zune.
I find Vista to be a huge step backwards.
I know it's a bit of a sport to bash Vista, but there are loads of things that I don't like... In particular eyecandy that has zero functional purpose.
Admittedly, XP was reaching a good level of maturity.
I know it's a bit of a sport to bash Vista, but there are loads of things that I don't like... In particular eyecandy that has zero functional purpose.
Admittedly, XP was reaching a good level of maturity.
I thought the Vista bashing was just "It's different and I don't like it!" kind of bashing that all new versions of software get...until I tried it. I built an HTPC with Vista Ultimate (which includes all the Media Center stuff), and I've been simply stunned by how bad the OS is. Simply horrible design decisions abound.
For example, while watching a movie (using MS' own player, even...though their player doesn't support Blue Ray, you have to have a separate piece of software for that) any notifications in the bar will popup and interrupt the movie. Given that notifications have become a constant feature of the OS in the past few years (really, does a mouse driver need to have a popup to notify you of updates?!?!? apparently so...likewise Java, likewise Windows updates, even Steam, which I want to like, is a nuisance). Notifications are happening all the time, and they'll interrupt anything else you're doing. I've never liked the notification bar in Windows, and I've always hated how many pieces of software think they're important enough to be allowed to nag me constantly while using the machine (it's one of the reasons I would never used Windows on my desktop), but Vista seems to take it to a new and astonishingly horrible level.
In the same vein, screensaver and power saving do not know when you're watching a movie...so, you pretty much have to turn them off, if the machine is for watching movies.
In a different direction, the audio, network, and video drivers keep breaking. Not sure why or how, but every few boots I have to reinstall one or more of the drivers from the original disks (installing via Windows automatic detection and installation installs drivers that don't work), or from the manufacturers website.
Also on that subject, audio will not work after changing the input on the TV--it uses HDMI for the audio connection, and some types of "off" events can never be recovered from (while others can...actually turning off the TV and turning it back on works fine...but switching inputs and then switching back breaks it).
Shutting down is broken. How can that be? I have no clue. But, sometimes when the box is shut down, it reboots immediately after. Not always...but about 40% of the time. Sometimes it goes into a state where it can't be shutdown properly, and a hard power off is the only solution.
While I have lots of other complaints about Windows, even when it's working exactly as intended, these things are just bone-headed and irritating, and can't possibly be considered right by anyone sane.
I keep thinking the next Windows Update will solve one or more of these problems...but, so far, they're all still present. The audio thing was fixed for a while, but then it broken again. I hate mysterious behavior in computers perhaps even more than wrong behavior, so this just served to piss me off more.
For example, while watching a movie (using MS' own player, even...though their player doesn't support Blue Ray, you have to have a separate piece of software for that) any notifications in the bar will popup and interrupt the movie. Given that notifications have become a constant feature of the OS in the past few years (really, does a mouse driver need to have a popup to notify you of updates?!?!? apparently so...likewise Java, likewise Windows updates, even Steam, which I want to like, is a nuisance). Notifications are happening all the time, and they'll interrupt anything else you're doing. I've never liked the notification bar in Windows, and I've always hated how many pieces of software think they're important enough to be allowed to nag me constantly while using the machine (it's one of the reasons I would never used Windows on my desktop), but Vista seems to take it to a new and astonishingly horrible level.
In the same vein, screensaver and power saving do not know when you're watching a movie...so, you pretty much have to turn them off, if the machine is for watching movies.
In a different direction, the audio, network, and video drivers keep breaking. Not sure why or how, but every few boots I have to reinstall one or more of the drivers from the original disks (installing via Windows automatic detection and installation installs drivers that don't work), or from the manufacturers website.
Also on that subject, audio will not work after changing the input on the TV--it uses HDMI for the audio connection, and some types of "off" events can never be recovered from (while others can...actually turning off the TV and turning it back on works fine...but switching inputs and then switching back breaks it).
Shutting down is broken. How can that be? I have no clue. But, sometimes when the box is shut down, it reboots immediately after. Not always...but about 40% of the time. Sometimes it goes into a state where it can't be shutdown properly, and a hard power off is the only solution.
While I have lots of other complaints about Windows, even when it's working exactly as intended, these things are just bone-headed and irritating, and can't possibly be considered right by anyone sane.
I keep thinking the next Windows Update will solve one or more of these problems...but, so far, they're all still present. The audio thing was fixed for a while, but then it broken again. I hate mysterious behavior in computers perhaps even more than wrong behavior, so this just served to piss me off more.
> I thought the Vista bashing was just "It's different and I don't like it!" kind of bashing that all new versions of software get
This is an entirely sensible criticism. New software shouldn't do things differently for gratuitous and arbitrary reasons. It should only change things if there's a good reason to. Car manufacturers don't say "it's boring that all cars have for years done the brake and accelerator pedals this way, let's be new and innovative and do it the other way round!"
This is an entirely sensible criticism. New software shouldn't do things differently for gratuitous and arbitrary reasons. It should only change things if there's a good reason to. Car manufacturers don't say "it's boring that all cars have for years done the brake and accelerator pedals this way, let's be new and innovative and do it the other way round!"
The ones that bother are me are things like the transparency on the window borders.
It's transparent, but it blurs the background.
It serves no purpose - if it was transparent and you could see though, I could guess there might be some practical application.
OS X has a lot of eyecandy, some of which is totally useless, but a lot of it does have practical value (e.g. expose looks good and I use it all the time).
It's transparent, but it blurs the background.
It serves no purpose - if it was transparent and you could see though, I could guess there might be some practical application.
OS X has a lot of eyecandy, some of which is totally useless, but a lot of it does have practical value (e.g. expose looks good and I use it all the time).
If you don't like it, why haven't you turned Aero off, or replaced the theme? Windows doesn't force you to live with any defaults.
please provide examples of totally useless eye candy in OS X.
The animation that happens when Expose is activated, the "Genie Effect" for minimizing windows, and the reflections of dock icons that show up when the dock is at the bottom of the screen are examples that come immediately to mind. (Arstechnica enumerated some of the UI regressions in their Leopard review.)
The genie effect tells you where in the dock the window is, and the expose effect tells you which desktop you're currently on.
You'd think that there would be a standard place for minimized windows to go so that it isn't needed or something...
In Leopard they introduced reflections and the blue dots to the dock... Both eye candy over the old rev in my view...
Thats why I like FVWM. I can tell it to get rid of all the tool-bars and window borders because I don't normally use a mouse and so all those things are utterly useless for me.
My co-workers are big-time mac enthusiasts... however we all run windows at work.
I think his comment on Mac OS and Linux are perfect:
1) "Mac OS is really good for the things that are easy to do on it. Apple put alot of effort into making certain asspects easy and stable. Everything else, you don't want to do jedi mind trick wave."
2) "I've never had problems with Linux, EVER, I know where everything is, what programs start, what is on it, etc... the only thing is I've never used Linux as a desktop."
And of course my take:
When buying a computer, does not matter what computer and for what reason, KNOW YOUR REASON FOR BUYING IT. I tell my friends, my wife, anyone who asks me, "If you are buying a laptop buy one that is CHEAP and accomplishes what you need to do, don't get 100000gb of ram and a Pentium 4 processor (just an exaggeration)." The same goes with the operating systems. Know what you are using it for, what works on it, what works well on it, and who is using it. I tell my friends "you can get windows vista, but don't ask me for help configuring it since I don't know it" because I know they will ask. And to them the coolness and ease of vista does not outweigh the need to be able to ask for help.
1 - Why do you want Mac? Because you saw those mac commercials? Then get a mac and live in a fantasy world.
2 - Are the developers you want to hire going to want to learn the OS you chose? People can get turned off at the fact that they use windows at home, mac at work, and don't feel like learning another OS. Do NOT get frustrated at people asking the same questions over and over about configuring the OS. It takes time to get used to it. Like driving a Honda Civic vs driving a Ford Expedition, people need time to get comfortable.
3 - Do you ALREADY know someone who can support the OS of choosing? If not then your company is in serious trouble. You WILL run into OS problems. I know how to solve windows problems, not mac problems, so if I was to get a mac there is a learning curve before I can solve problems as well as I can on windows.
4 - Are there applications for the OS of choosing that you want/need to use? If you are using eclipse, then whatever, you can run VM to emulate IE6/7. If you care about TextMate like it is your only oxygen supply, then you better go mac. If you want the nifty linux commands, then download cygwin OR unixutils (http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/). Don't pick the OS before you pick the tools. The tools are your lifeblood, the OS is your heart. If your heart can't pump the composition of your lifeblood then its worthless and you are dead.
5 - Linux does not save you money.
Unfortunately windows has a grip on us. And don't fight it "just because". I actually thing while MS is evil Apple is 10x worse. So shed those personal beliefs and think what is best for the company, not "cool".
I think his comment on Mac OS and Linux are perfect:
1) "Mac OS is really good for the things that are easy to do on it. Apple put alot of effort into making certain asspects easy and stable. Everything else, you don't want to do jedi mind trick wave."
2) "I've never had problems with Linux, EVER, I know where everything is, what programs start, what is on it, etc... the only thing is I've never used Linux as a desktop."
And of course my take:
When buying a computer, does not matter what computer and for what reason, KNOW YOUR REASON FOR BUYING IT. I tell my friends, my wife, anyone who asks me, "If you are buying a laptop buy one that is CHEAP and accomplishes what you need to do, don't get 100000gb of ram and a Pentium 4 processor (just an exaggeration)." The same goes with the operating systems. Know what you are using it for, what works on it, what works well on it, and who is using it. I tell my friends "you can get windows vista, but don't ask me for help configuring it since I don't know it" because I know they will ask. And to them the coolness and ease of vista does not outweigh the need to be able to ask for help.
1 - Why do you want Mac? Because you saw those mac commercials? Then get a mac and live in a fantasy world.
2 - Are the developers you want to hire going to want to learn the OS you chose? People can get turned off at the fact that they use windows at home, mac at work, and don't feel like learning another OS. Do NOT get frustrated at people asking the same questions over and over about configuring the OS. It takes time to get used to it. Like driving a Honda Civic vs driving a Ford Expedition, people need time to get comfortable.
3 - Do you ALREADY know someone who can support the OS of choosing? If not then your company is in serious trouble. You WILL run into OS problems. I know how to solve windows problems, not mac problems, so if I was to get a mac there is a learning curve before I can solve problems as well as I can on windows.
4 - Are there applications for the OS of choosing that you want/need to use? If you are using eclipse, then whatever, you can run VM to emulate IE6/7. If you care about TextMate like it is your only oxygen supply, then you better go mac. If you want the nifty linux commands, then download cygwin OR unixutils (http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/). Don't pick the OS before you pick the tools. The tools are your lifeblood, the OS is your heart. If your heart can't pump the composition of your lifeblood then its worthless and you are dead.
5 - Linux does not save you money.
Unfortunately windows has a grip on us. And don't fight it "just because". I actually thing while MS is evil Apple is 10x worse. So shed those personal beliefs and think what is best for the company, not "cool".
If anyone is interested, here are the stats for Rails Forum -- which is predictably pretty Mac heavy given how great Rails development is on a Mac.
Windows: 47.84% / Mac: 32.76% / Linux: 18.95% / FreeBSD: 0.07%
(iPhone is actually ahead of FreeBSD at 0.11% -- even though the site is not iPhone optimized at all)
Windows: 47.84% / Mac: 32.76% / Linux: 18.95% / FreeBSD: 0.07%
(iPhone is actually ahead of FreeBSD at 0.11% -- even though the site is not iPhone optimized at all)
Development is one thing. What's the percentage that is of platforms for deployments? So I develop my rails app on the mac, if my production system is actually 20 machines and linux, that's a 20:1 ratio of servers deployments to development deployments.
It isn't always black and white.
I run Windows. But I have half a dozen SSH sessions open to Linux boxes, and I do my development exclusively under Cygwin (which is sufficient, 99% of the time, to develop for other *nix systems).
And I have a Powerbook sitting on my desk running OS X.
I run Windows. But I have half a dozen SSH sessions open to Linux boxes, and I do my development exclusively under Cygwin (which is sufficient, 99% of the time, to develop for other *nix systems).
And I have a Powerbook sitting on my desk running OS X.
Linux does a great job of getting out of your way after you've passed the learning curve. And if you do any sort of web development you can clone your production stack on your development box without worry.
Mac OS X for my home machine (MBP)
Linux for servers (Debian or CentOS usually)
I'm also curious if it knows which IDs registered as which OSes.
For instance, I use a Mac at home, and I use Linux via VNC on Windows at work (though I don't visit HN from there, others might come here from work). So technically I could be using any of the 3, and if I really wanted it to "count" I'd consider myself a Mac user.
For instance, I use a Mac at home, and I use Linux via VNC on Windows at work (though I don't visit HN from there, others might come here from work). So technically I could be using any of the 3, and if I really wanted it to "count" I'd consider myself a Mac user.
Agreed. I mostly browse HN when I'm at work where it's Windows XP. Otherwise I'm on a mac at home.
For my free time, I want a system that stays out of my way. When I'm done with work for the day, and I want to hack on fun projects in languages from C to Smalltalk to Lua to Scheme, or communicate over various chat protocols and IRC, or do any kind of reading or writing, i do it in OS X.
Linux, preferably of the Ubuntu/Debian persuasion
I have a Windows partition on my laptop for some work stuff and to help with Windows support, but I almost never boot it. I generally just work from memory on that stuff.
I have a Windows partition on my laptop for some work stuff and to help with Windows support, but I almost never boot it. I generally just work from memory on that stuff.
Mac Mini for writing code for my rented Linux and Solaris boxes while I'm not playing games on my old PC.
Where can you rent computers from?
I use Windows Server 2008. It's an excellent operating system. It's very fast, very stable (has never crashed), e.t.c.
And above all I can run 90% of all the apps in the world (I'm guessing over 90% apps are for windows).
If you want to use Linux, run it in a VM on Windows; or use Cygwin for basic apps.
And above all I can run 90% of all the apps in the world (I'm guessing over 90% apps are for windows).
If you want to use Linux, run it in a VM on Windows; or use Cygwin for basic apps.
> And above all I can run 90% of all the apps in the world
Does that matter, though? At least 90% of the apps in the world suck. I care about the ones that don't.
As staunch said, I'd reverse it. I have two Windows VMs so I can put up with IE6 and IE7 when I have to (woo-freaking-hoo) - other than that I use them for nothing.
Does that matter, though? At least 90% of the apps in the world suck. I care about the ones that don't.
As staunch said, I'd reverse it. I have two Windows VMs so I can put up with IE6 and IE7 when I have to (woo-freaking-hoo) - other than that I use them for nothing.
[deleted]
After having spent the day trying to explain how the web works to a few Windows developers, I am further entrenched in the thought that Windows is for people who just don't know any better.
To a windwos DEVELOPER?
Man, this is sad.
I read this from http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html. I am just wondering: is this the latest stats? PG, could you please let us know the latest stats?