Ask YC: Best ways to become socially adept?
I know about and have done Toastmasters. Are there any other effective ways to develop my interpersonal abilities, besides reading "How to Make Friends and Influence People" etc?
49 comments
I went with my friend to the convenience store on the weekend. He spent a couple of minutes chatting with the clerk behind the counter while I watched. It seemed like the most natural thing in the world.
He later told me that he didn't feel at all comfortable during the conversation. He said that he has been trying to "bust out of his geeky shell" by talking to random people. To me it looked like he was just a friendly guy chatting with a stranger.
Moral of the story: just do it. It will probably feel weird but you are the only person who will notice.
He later told me that he didn't feel at all comfortable during the conversation. He said that he has been trying to "bust out of his geeky shell" by talking to random people. To me it looked like he was just a friendly guy chatting with a stranger.
Moral of the story: just do it. It will probably feel weird but you are the only person who will notice.
It's like playing a sport: it takes practice to become a natural at it.
"Moral of the story: just do it. It will probably feel weird but you are the only person who will notice."
While this advice is, of course, true, it's also pretty common for introverts without a lot of social experience to not notice when they're making someone uncomfortable. So, starting conversations is a great way to get over the fear of them, ending them in a reasonable time frame is a great way to insure you aren't crossing the boundary into uncomfortable (for the other person...I know that the introvert is going to be uncomfortable throughout the exchange, as I'm an introvert myself, and so the cues that may be obvious to most folks aren't as obvious to an introvert...insert boiling frog analogy here).
While this advice is, of course, true, it's also pretty common for introverts without a lot of social experience to not notice when they're making someone uncomfortable. So, starting conversations is a great way to get over the fear of them, ending them in a reasonable time frame is a great way to insure you aren't crossing the boundary into uncomfortable (for the other person...I know that the introvert is going to be uncomfortable throughout the exchange, as I'm an introvert myself, and so the cues that may be obvious to most folks aren't as obvious to an introvert...insert boiling frog analogy here).
I agree with this. My biggest fear up to last year was public speaking. No matter what format it was, I just hated being in front of people. Then one day, I decided I wasn't going to suck at it anymore and I started to seek out opportunities to present, and I slowly got better. It is still pretty terrifying, but usually I'm the only one who notices.
Introverted people need to break out of their shell and 'just do things'. This applies to pretty much everything. If you fail, try, try again and you will eventually succeed whether you want to be able to socialize with people or learn a new language or whatever it is that you truly desire.
Introverts do not have a shell that needs breaking. We're not (necessarily) antisocial. We don't refrain from 'doing things'.
We just don't get energized from being around people. This doesn't mean we can't or don't. Like any aspect of temperament, it's mostly immutable: even a socially adept introvert (which I like to think I am) is still an introvert.
Wikipedia puts it well: "Introversion is not the same as shyness, though introverts may also be shy. Introverts choose solitary over social activities by preference, whereas shy people avoid social encounters out of fear."
We just don't get energized from being around people. This doesn't mean we can't or don't. Like any aspect of temperament, it's mostly immutable: even a socially adept introvert (which I like to think I am) is still an introvert.
Wikipedia puts it well: "Introversion is not the same as shyness, though introverts may also be shy. Introverts choose solitary over social activities by preference, whereas shy people avoid social encounters out of fear."
Consider attending a political event. You'll be surrounded by only the socially adept who will all be forced to at least talk to you momentarily. Watch as they work a room. A relatively cheap donation will get you invited. Consider it a training fee. You'll learn more about power and interpersonal relationships in a night than a month of sitting by yourself at the bar.
btw - I second that this is a skill that does not come from books. It requires real effort on your part.
btw - I second that this is a skill that does not come from books. It requires real effort on your part.
Be sure to donate to Obama.
Also, go to programmer meetups. It will be many people that you can empathize with. You'll have a lot in common with the crowd an it is a good way to start.
Also, go to programmer meetups. It will be many people that you can empathize with. You'll have a lot in common with the crowd an it is a good way to start.
From my own experience: It may seem crazy, but try this.
Climb down your geek tower and stop judging people (you may be judging people without even knowing it), then will come respect for people.
When you respect anyone around, you will gradually find interest in them; That will help break the ice, conversation will come easy and you’ll found out that people are much interesting than you think.
Climb down your geek tower and stop judging people (you may be judging people without even knowing it), then will come respect for people.
When you respect anyone around, you will gradually find interest in them; That will help break the ice, conversation will come easy and you’ll found out that people are much interesting than you think.
I couldn't agree more. During Y Combinator, there were two guys sitting behind me. They said something along the lines of "Not to be sterotypical but I am suspicious of any girls here. They're probably just project managers and not really hackers."
Not a very "social" tactical move to do when there were about two girls around the area who heard his comment and some hackers wonder why girls don't talk to them.
Not a very "social" tactical move to do when there were about two girls around the area who heard his comment and some hackers wonder why girls don't talk to them.
And, of course, they were wrong (and had they actually talked to some of the girls, they would have known that). I met one young woman who is a CompSci major and has built and sold a Facebook app. I'd give good odds that she'll out-hack and out-earn those two fellows by an order of magnitude in her lifetime. It's a small sample size, and I didn't meet any other women that I didn't previously know from YC, but 100% of the women (er, woman) I met at Startup School were hackers.
Find a fellow nerd and go to events together. Make it a project to encourage each other; that is, if I don't muster up the courage to meet someone and start a conversation, then you get a demerit. It's almost uncanny how we will find a way to succeed given a limited scope, easily defined problem.
Once you get into the swing of things, instinct takes over and you'll be fine. You probably have something interesting to discuss with almost everyone else out there. The trick is finding it.
I don't buy into the philosphy of learning about popular culture, sports, or current events just to have something to talk about. Stick with what turns you on; you can be yourself (who else would you be?), and the same thing probably turns someone else on, too.
(Aside: A drink or two couldn't hurt. That's what it's there for.)
Once you get into the swing of things, instinct takes over and you'll be fine. You probably have something interesting to discuss with almost everyone else out there. The trick is finding it.
I don't buy into the philosphy of learning about popular culture, sports, or current events just to have something to talk about. Stick with what turns you on; you can be yourself (who else would you be?), and the same thing probably turns someone else on, too.
(Aside: A drink or two couldn't hurt. That's what it's there for.)
I'm with you on taking a buddy - nothing like the spirit of competition to get you over the line.
Tech events are great too - barcamps, meetups etc. You'd be surprised at exactly how many hackers don't just defy the monosyllabic geek stereotype, but smash it out of the park.
Tech events are great too - barcamps, meetups etc. You'd be surprised at exactly how many hackers don't just defy the monosyllabic geek stereotype, but smash it out of the park.
We used to play a game in bars and other places, one friend picks a random person and you need to hold that persons attention for X minutes of conversation. Fail to do it and the next round is on you.
Iterate until you are comfortable with it, and can leave your wallet at home.
Iterate until you are comfortable with it, and can leave your wallet at home.
A year of boxing worked for me. The experience of being in the ring, seeing his eyes while he's trying to punch your face, works wonders. You become peaceful and confident in everyday interactions.
Singing and playing guitar helps too, it makes you wanted and welcome, which you want to be.
A non-trivial fact for me was that a lot of conversations aren't about information; talking is a game, played for fun. Read "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas", watch "Pulp Fiction", and try to do the same.
Singing and playing guitar helps too, it makes you wanted and welcome, which you want to be.
A non-trivial fact for me was that a lot of conversations aren't about information; talking is a game, played for fun. Read "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas", watch "Pulp Fiction", and try to do the same.
Start by pretending to be genuinely interested in other people's lives, and their problems. If you pretend this for long enough, you'll find yourself actually feeling that way. And then you'll enjoy being around people, because they'll enjoy being around you.
I'm not sure you have to pretend at all. Try to realize that everyone and everything has a story and that it's often interesting to find out what it is.
Some people and things are more interesting than others of course. Learning how to gracefully exit a conversation is step #2.
Some people and things are more interesting than others of course. Learning how to gracefully exit a conversation is step #2.
I agree with you - I didn't mean to sound overly cynical. Although I find that I do have to pretend when I'm dealing with people who are initially rude or hostile to me. And I don't always succeed at pretending :-). But I can when I'm at my best. And over time, I can begin to genuinely appreciate their stories, too.
The exit is the hardest part - by far.
Some great answers on here! Just wanted to give a contrary view though..
I tried becoming more "socially adept" for quite a while, but even though I can put on a pretty lively appearance on the outside, it's just not me. I'm an introvert and I accept that.
One of the best bits of advice I've heard recently is to "focus on strengths, not weaknesses." That is, there's no point hammering away improving at things you're bad at, and ending up mediocre at everything, if you can focus on the things you already kick ass at and become world class!
Most people who are socially inept tend only to be so with the public or people who are not considered close to them. Take Stanley Kubrick. He got a reputation for being an appallingly bad socializer, yet most of his closest contacts talk about what a friendly and amazing person he was.
So.. enough people are socially awkward, or even downright grating, but are or were world class in their field. These people should be an inspiration. Don't hammer away at making yourself a socially popular person if it takes energy away from being kickass.. because if you're kickass, you don't need many social skills.
I tried becoming more "socially adept" for quite a while, but even though I can put on a pretty lively appearance on the outside, it's just not me. I'm an introvert and I accept that.
One of the best bits of advice I've heard recently is to "focus on strengths, not weaknesses." That is, there's no point hammering away improving at things you're bad at, and ending up mediocre at everything, if you can focus on the things you already kick ass at and become world class!
Most people who are socially inept tend only to be so with the public or people who are not considered close to them. Take Stanley Kubrick. He got a reputation for being an appallingly bad socializer, yet most of his closest contacts talk about what a friendly and amazing person he was.
So.. enough people are socially awkward, or even downright grating, but are or were world class in their field. These people should be an inspiration. Don't hammer away at making yourself a socially popular person if it takes energy away from being kickass.. because if you're kickass, you don't need many social skills.
I think that's good advice, but I also do think I'm missing something. For some reason I am just not at ease around others, and I don't get it. I think I lack a sense of self, there's always a need for confirmation from others, not that you would think so if you knew me.
Essentially, there is something missing and I feel disconnected from others. I cannot engage them on an intuitive level, I engage them on an analytical level which tries to look natural, because my intuition is not normal, i.e. doesn't sync with most people. I think this is true for many introverts, and is why they tend to be exhausted by social interaction.
Essentially, there is something missing and I feel disconnected from others. I cannot engage them on an intuitive level, I engage them on an analytical level which tries to look natural, because my intuition is not normal, i.e. doesn't sync with most people. I think this is true for many introverts, and is why they tend to be exhausted by social interaction.
My brother just came back from the Hoffman Institute - an intensive 9 day seminar where they address how to have genuine and connected communications - picking up on patterns, and in a group therapy setting, reworking those patterns so you are reconnected... http://www.hoffmaninstitute.org/
Are you uneasy even around your closest contacts, though? (friends, family, etc.) If so, then yes, there's probably something worth working at.
In my case, I get on ferociously well with a handful of people, but almost no-one else (at least, not for longer than an hour or two). That's good enough for me, but if ALL social interaction is a problem for you, then best of luck with your journey! :)
In my case, I get on ferociously well with a handful of people, but almost no-one else (at least, not for longer than an hour or two). That's good enough for me, but if ALL social interaction is a problem for you, then best of luck with your journey! :)
You can't read yourself into social adeptness. I'd suggest participating in some non-nerd social gatherings. Figure out something you like and go spend some time doing it. Oddly enough, the nerds you do meet in other contexts tend to be interesting and well connected. (In Berlin for instance, there's a large overlap between the open source / founders social scenes and the electronic music scenes. I met my cofounder and many of the contacts that we're using through music rather than, say, the local LUG.)
I second the "meet nerds in other contexts" cause. I played some theatre at my university and besides becoming friends with some very cool girls and traveling the world, I strangely enough met a lot of other cs guys there.
And those are the ones who are indeed more interesting as they have a life beyond their computer, travel the world and have a broader context in life.
Read "How to Make Friends and Influence People".
Oh you said besides that...well practice what it preaches. Us folk (geeks/nerds/hackers) tend to like to show how much we know about a subject. Some old dude is talking about how his phone can now surf the web...what do you say? Act a bit surprised and ask him a bit more about the subject. Let HIM show what he knows, and get that little feeling of self-importance. Don't squash it by saying you could ssh in to work on your phone 5 years ago and that his phone is garbage.
Also practice, and have someone judge your performance. There are a zillion things to improve on here, it is a difficult art to master. I would also say it is a long road that I wouldn't be satisfied in saying I know well until I can sit in a room with anyone at anytime and befriend them and/or convince them they want to reconnect with me again shortly.
One last thing, I have the most difficulty talking to people I know well and respect. For example, I was recently discussing business and my goals with an old co-worker I really respected, and I found myself a bit flustered. Anyone else experienced this and/or have any suggestions?
Oh you said besides that...well practice what it preaches. Us folk (geeks/nerds/hackers) tend to like to show how much we know about a subject. Some old dude is talking about how his phone can now surf the web...what do you say? Act a bit surprised and ask him a bit more about the subject. Let HIM show what he knows, and get that little feeling of self-importance. Don't squash it by saying you could ssh in to work on your phone 5 years ago and that his phone is garbage.
Also practice, and have someone judge your performance. There are a zillion things to improve on here, it is a difficult art to master. I would also say it is a long road that I wouldn't be satisfied in saying I know well until I can sit in a room with anyone at anytime and befriend them and/or convince them they want to reconnect with me again shortly.
One last thing, I have the most difficulty talking to people I know well and respect. For example, I was recently discussing business and my goals with an old co-worker I really respected, and I found myself a bit flustered. Anyone else experienced this and/or have any suggestions?
I found that "How to Make Friends and Influence People" was really good but more suited to the workplace/building up business contacts.
Valid point, it did have that feel.
But I think the key points are suited to all interactions. If you are first meeting someone...and I don't know how to phrase this to be politically correct...you are 'intimately' interested in, perhaps telling them about your magic card collection isn't the best approach. You could discuss his/her Starcraft skills instead :)
But I think the key points are suited to all interactions. If you are first meeting someone...and I don't know how to phrase this to be politically correct...you are 'intimately' interested in, perhaps telling them about your magic card collection isn't the best approach. You could discuss his/her Starcraft skills instead :)
Boy, yeah, I have that problem. In my undergrad, there was a teacher I really respected, and I really wanted to get to know him, but I always felt like such a waste of his time. Happens with most older guys I really respect who don't go out of their way to befriend me.
However, if it's a matter of professional self interest, there's no problem. I'm quite bold going up and talking to people very senior in rank.
However, if it's a matter of professional self interest, there's no problem. I'm quite bold going up and talking to people very senior in rank.
Here's a quote from "Happy to Burn" (http://www.surreal.com.au/sankhara/Happy_To_Burn.pdf):
The most effective way I know of is the giving of ourselves. I don't mean in the passionate sense, but more as a form of empathy, as a spiritual generosity.
For instance, try responding to people as if they were your brother or sister instead of a stranger, with candid good will; usually they'll respond in kind. If someone does something you like, tell them - nothing gushy, just let them know in a direct and quietly thankful way.
Let someone in a hurry go ahead of you in a queue, let them overtake you when you're driving, thank the bank teller or the shop assistant. All these things are so small, but they all add up, and from each act there will be a corresponding positive effect within you.
The giving of yourselves in this way has an immediate and positive effect on the mind/body. Try to be aware of how it feels as you do all of these things. You will feel your whole mind/body loosening up, a feeling of lightness that can't be achieved in any other way.
The most effective way I know of is the giving of ourselves. I don't mean in the passionate sense, but more as a form of empathy, as a spiritual generosity.
For instance, try responding to people as if they were your brother or sister instead of a stranger, with candid good will; usually they'll respond in kind. If someone does something you like, tell them - nothing gushy, just let them know in a direct and quietly thankful way.
Let someone in a hurry go ahead of you in a queue, let them overtake you when you're driving, thank the bank teller or the shop assistant. All these things are so small, but they all add up, and from each act there will be a corresponding positive effect within you.
The giving of yourselves in this way has an immediate and positive effect on the mind/body. Try to be aware of how it feels as you do all of these things. You will feel your whole mind/body loosening up, a feeling of lightness that can't be achieved in any other way.
I had a good time with salsa dancing. It's a good way to meet girls, requires some actual skill (that can be learned with some effort), is fun in any case, and... dancing can tell you a lot about someone in a surprisingly short period of time.
A) Practice, practice, practice.
B) Listening. Speaking is an important part of socializing, but it's a minor part.
B) Listening. Speaking is an important part of socializing, but it's a minor part.
If you are a programmer and strongly left-brained (not always the same thing), I'd suggest tricking yourself into thinking you have a logical approach to interpersonal relationships and then going to social gatherings quickly before you over-analyze.
Step 1 - Read most of http://www.amazon.com/Nlp-21-Days-Harry-Alder/dp/0749920300/... - this is NOT a good scientific book, but it seems to be good at convincing you to step outside your comfort zone. Optionally, skip this step and do sit-ups and push-ups instead which will make you feel more confident and comes with a low price tag.
Step 2 - Practice on an opposite-gendered friend whom you have no romantic interest in. If such a person does not exist, skip this step.
Step 3 - Attend social events. These are easy to find: book groups, local music, free martial arts class. Talk to people with no intent to "hook up" or even make friends. And I don't mean "tell yourself you're not interested so you'll have a better shot." I mean just talk to them. Ask something about the event. Ask what time it is (don't wear a watch or carry a cell phone). You don't have to have a conversation. You just have to communicate. Likewise, anytime you eat at a restaurant require yourself to compliment at least one employee while you are there.
Step 4 - Rinse and repeat until you realize you're enjoying all of the events and you talk to random people with more ease. As some of the comments have said, you can have great conversations talking about silly stuff that you don't care about if you enjoy the process of facilitating a good conversation.
Tips:
Don't drink unless you know your limit and have a pre-established track record for staying under your limit. Otherwise, you will end up undoing all confidence building when you get hammered and embarrass yourself once.
Avoid drunk people. They are a pain in the ass and will spill things on you. Both of these tips are easy to stick to if you don't go where people are drinking.
Step 1 - Read most of http://www.amazon.com/Nlp-21-Days-Harry-Alder/dp/0749920300/... - this is NOT a good scientific book, but it seems to be good at convincing you to step outside your comfort zone. Optionally, skip this step and do sit-ups and push-ups instead which will make you feel more confident and comes with a low price tag.
Step 2 - Practice on an opposite-gendered friend whom you have no romantic interest in. If such a person does not exist, skip this step.
Step 3 - Attend social events. These are easy to find: book groups, local music, free martial arts class. Talk to people with no intent to "hook up" or even make friends. And I don't mean "tell yourself you're not interested so you'll have a better shot." I mean just talk to them. Ask something about the event. Ask what time it is (don't wear a watch or carry a cell phone). You don't have to have a conversation. You just have to communicate. Likewise, anytime you eat at a restaurant require yourself to compliment at least one employee while you are there.
Step 4 - Rinse and repeat until you realize you're enjoying all of the events and you talk to random people with more ease. As some of the comments have said, you can have great conversations talking about silly stuff that you don't care about if you enjoy the process of facilitating a good conversation.
Tips:
Don't drink unless you know your limit and have a pre-established track record for staying under your limit. Otherwise, you will end up undoing all confidence building when you get hammered and embarrass yourself once.
Avoid drunk people. They are a pain in the ass and will spill things on you. Both of these tips are easy to stick to if you don't go where people are drinking.
I suspect you're right about the analytical approach causing me problems. But, I've had a lot of "step out of your comfort zone" type advice throughout my life. I've done this, but I guess I'm not persistent enough. At any rate, I'd like another approach if possible.
One thing most geeks have in common is the ability to process information. Most of us don't have great social skills because we don't participate in social events but even more so we don't pay attention when we're in these situations. When you're in social group, push aside your latest paradigm and actually watch what other people are doing, its easy to pick out the people with the best interpersonal abilities. Watch them but don't mimic, instead find similarities in yourself (your interpersonal muscles) and then start working them out. Walk up to people and introduce yourself. Its hard at first but eventually it'll come naturally.
I suggest reading the following books, but I also suggest not using their suggestions. These books are merely for awareness. I fee like knowing what was out there, gave me more confidence while I was trying to find my own style.
[the Game] - this book is about the secret lives of pickup artists and their quest to find either a Beta or Alpha Gal. This book offers- ZERO advice if you are looking for a Gamma.
[The Art of Deception: Controlling the Human Element of Security] - from Kevin Mitnick, one of the fore-most books on social engineering. Reading this book kept us out of a few scams.
[the Game] - this book is about the secret lives of pickup artists and their quest to find either a Beta or Alpha Gal. This book offers- ZERO advice if you are looking for a Gamma.
[The Art of Deception: Controlling the Human Element of Security] - from Kevin Mitnick, one of the fore-most books on social engineering. Reading this book kept us out of a few scams.
I agree with jdavid - books on gender-related issues can be helpful. [The Game] is hysterical. Read the ones for guys and girls. Some others:
[How to Succeed with Women] - Sounds cheesy, but goes over the basics that "geeks" often miss, including dressing appropriately, grooming, and polite conversation.
[He's Just Not That Into You] - Manual for women on how to tell if a guy doesn't care about them. Useful for learning about behaviors to avoid and their underlying reasons.
[Self-Made Man: One Woman's Journey into Manhood and Back] - Can't recommend this one enough. Norah Vincent lived for a year as a man, and reports back on the challenges and successes she had. Invaluable for understanding both men and women.
[How to Succeed with Women] - Sounds cheesy, but goes over the basics that "geeks" often miss, including dressing appropriately, grooming, and polite conversation.
[He's Just Not That Into You] - Manual for women on how to tell if a guy doesn't care about them. Useful for learning about behaviors to avoid and their underlying reasons.
[Self-Made Man: One Woman's Journey into Manhood and Back] - Can't recommend this one enough. Norah Vincent lived for a year as a man, and reports back on the challenges and successes she had. Invaluable for understanding both men and women.
I disagree with self-made man. She confuses eye flirting with 'rude' eye contact, and other misunderstandings that would be unique to lesbians. Of course when the men don't want to flirt with you because they think your a guy, they don't try to keep eye contact with you! Something like self-made man could be counter productive, giving you negative social ideas that could make you even more awkward.
"Eye flirting" might be perceived as rude in the wrong context by people who aren't lesbians. Understanding that context is part of being socially adept.
There's a fine line between confident and creepy.
There's a fine line between confident and creepy.
yeah, i tend to find, confidence requires you to act quickly and with allowing her to reject you. creepy usually rests in hesitation, and well non confrontational actions from a distance.
i will usually look, smile, and see if she responds, before i say something. if she does not smile, i go back to something else.
i will usually look, smile, and see if she responds, before i say something. if she does not smile, i go back to something else.
Not focusing on how you feel socially inept goes a long way. People will cut you some slack if you cut yourself some.
"...of awkward self consciousness, and feeling ashamed about said self consciousness"
"...can't connect at the small talk level. I have an easy time talking with people like xlnt about abstract ideas and philosophy..."
"but I strike out with anyone my age"
those express exactly (exactly!) as I feel. Let's see how much more we can relate. Do you also:
-Think that you are quite a weird yet funny individual, and wish you can show that to the people you know, but somehow can't? -Also, you are often feel "closed-out" when another exuberant person comes on scene. Also, you have no problem chatting, emailing, etc. and can express yourself without limitation that way. -Speeches are easy because everyone uniformly has their attention on you, but when you are in a casual group situation and have to vie for attention it gets intimidating (and you will undoubtedly reprimand yourself for later). -You also find it hard to come out and say something once you already start a pattern of not saying anything, as you begin to become over-anxious about people's reaction to your change. ...
this list can go on and on...if you're not looking at this thread anymore, yters, at least i got to spill my guts out which doesn't feel that bad. If you want to continue the list, i'd love to hear other people's situations as well, we can treat it as a fun little game.
those express exactly (exactly!) as I feel. Let's see how much more we can relate. Do you also:
-Think that you are quite a weird yet funny individual, and wish you can show that to the people you know, but somehow can't? -Also, you are often feel "closed-out" when another exuberant person comes on scene. Also, you have no problem chatting, emailing, etc. and can express yourself without limitation that way. -Speeches are easy because everyone uniformly has their attention on you, but when you are in a casual group situation and have to vie for attention it gets intimidating (and you will undoubtedly reprimand yourself for later). -You also find it hard to come out and say something once you already start a pattern of not saying anything, as you begin to become over-anxious about people's reaction to your change. ...
this list can go on and on...if you're not looking at this thread anymore, yters, at least i got to spill my guts out which doesn't feel that bad. If you want to continue the list, i'd love to hear other people's situations as well, we can treat it as a fun little game.
Yes, good phrasing. I think I feel some of that less now, i.e. social shame and getting closed out. But this was very true especially when I was in high school.
Spilling my guts is something that's helpful for me too.
Spilling my guts is something that's helpful for me too.
Shyness is self-perpetuating. So start small, by doing something as simple as saying hi to people in an elevator (btw, elevators are a great place to talk to people, because they can't avoid you).
When you go to social events, go with a friend and make it a friendly competition to see who can meet the most interesting people.
Volunteer to do as many public speaking things as you can. And just generally force yourself out of your comfort zone. Reading won't get you very far, it's just practice practice practice.
When you go to social events, go with a friend and make it a friendly competition to see who can meet the most interesting people.
Volunteer to do as many public speaking things as you can. And just generally force yourself out of your comfort zone. Reading won't get you very far, it's just practice practice practice.
I understand what you are saying. I often find myself in situations where I don't have the confidence or care to involve myself in, or to initiate, a discussion.
I spent a few years as a bartender and something I've learned is that you can always talk about the present. There are tons of things you share with another in any given moment, and often they are new experiences. Finding a common ground like that can be a great way to begin.
The best method for you probably varies based on _why_ you're socially inept. If it's because you haven't interacted enough with other people, then the advice others have given to get more experience makes sense. If it's because you're under confident or constantly worried about things the other person is thinking, you should work at getting rid of your insecurities.
The right course of action will then depend on the insecurity, but exercise and improved health generally boosted my confidence. If you experience anxiety over others judging you, consider that in most situations the person you're worried about probably isn't paying much attention to you, and even if they do notice you do something odd, they won't necessarily remember it; everything only revolves around you in _your_ head. Most of all, just get off your butt and do something about whatever bothers you -- if you're embarrassed by your long hair, get a haircut. A surprising number of my own insecurities were things like that -- easily fixable if I only took the time to calm down, consider them, and make a list of solutions.
The right course of action will then depend on the insecurity, but exercise and improved health generally boosted my confidence. If you experience anxiety over others judging you, consider that in most situations the person you're worried about probably isn't paying much attention to you, and even if they do notice you do something odd, they won't necessarily remember it; everything only revolves around you in _your_ head. Most of all, just get off your butt and do something about whatever bothers you -- if you're embarrassed by your long hair, get a haircut. A surprising number of my own insecurities were things like that -- easily fixable if I only took the time to calm down, consider them, and make a list of solutions.
Want to change your lifestyle? You need to force it, it is difficult and you need to get out of your comfort zone and put yourself in awkward situations. Here is a great book with a 30 day lifestyle challenge. Each day is a new challenge. By day 30 you will be comfortable walking up to and engaging any stranger in interesting conversations. Day one challenge for instance is start five conversations with 5 strangers. Each day there is a new challenge and they get progressively harder and funny enough easier as you become more comfortable outside your comfort zone.
http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Game-Neil-Strauss/dp/0061540455/...
Read a book on Typewatching/MBTI. I've found it's much easier to relate to people when I understand the differences between their personalities and my own.
Come on, this isn't about hacking people." Forget the X minutes, forget the competition, and just get out for face time with people.
Go to events that you're actually interested in (talking to someone with similar interests is stacking the deck), join a club or society in the same vein. When you've got a free night, check out the local calendar. Whatever you do, just get in the habit of going out, going out, going out! Don't prepare, read up for tips, construct elaborate plans...just go out. Most people are out for the same reason as you. Culley says it best when he says you can't find this in a book. It takes effort.
And remember: the worst thing that can happen is you stay inside and nothing happens.
Go to events that you're actually interested in (talking to someone with similar interests is stacking the deck), join a club or society in the same vein. When you've got a free night, check out the local calendar. Whatever you do, just get in the habit of going out, going out, going out! Don't prepare, read up for tips, construct elaborate plans...just go out. Most people are out for the same reason as you. Culley says it best when he says you can't find this in a book. It takes effort.
And remember: the worst thing that can happen is you stay inside and nothing happens.
Yeah, I've tried this to some extent, and I'm no social recluse. Right now my main source of socialization is attending a church service with people my age (who aren't a bunch of cloistered preacher kids). I do this at least once every weekend. I also meet with an older couple, interact with classmates and teachers, etc. I've also tried going clubbing with groups of people, but the clubs depress me. I seem to be able to get along great with people outside my peer group (i.e. older and younger who don't see me as equal), but I strike out with anyone my age.
IGNORE every advice out there including this, but do learn to LISTEN without jumping to conclusions - ironically, nature works in such a way that a good listener is considered exponentially nice already :) Oh, one more thing, if you learn about yourself, you are social already, for everyone else out there has the same social "adept"ability concerns - so take it easy on them and you are on your way to being a socialite (in the good sense of the word, not the crazy paparazzi); so, only if you find yourself truly, i.e. that listening is important, then the real learning takes place and fear burns away.
Consider attending events about things you're interested in/ where the you have similar interests with the people attending. For example, you could go to more alumni events. Go with the intention of meeting at least 5 new people. You don't have to end up with their business card or contact information. Just practice as someone else mentioned. You'll find yourself gaining more confidence and you can start branching out to other kinds of events. This is what I did and it helped me.
I've heard improv classes go a long way.
They worked wonders for Michael Scott on "The Office."
What exactly is most troubling for you?
I don't know. I shut down around the more social, outgoing people. It's partially a vicious regression of awkward self consciousness, and feeling ashamed about said self consciousness.
The other part is dreadful boredom, which I know sounds way arrogant, but I'm not saying I'm bored because I think I'm better (though that's part of it). I also seem to lack something, not sure what. I've heard about people with small souls and no chests, and I think that's me.
The other part is dreadful boredom, which I know sounds way arrogant, but I'm not saying I'm bored because I think I'm better (though that's part of it). I also seem to lack something, not sure what. I've heard about people with small souls and no chests, and I think that's me.
Well, remember Paris Hilton's advice: to appear to be interesting, say as little as possible. So maybe you have the wrong perception of yourself, and appear more interesting to the social outgoing people than you realise - without jumping through hoops.
Use your hacker skills to analyze what makes people cooler or more personal than you. List those things, then execute solutions.
Things: wardrobe, humor, hair, attitude, conversation, hygene
Dating is a huge help. A girl will help you improve all of the above things.
WARNING: Don't apply hacker skills to understanding women (on anything more than a very high level). You'll hit a critical error.
Things: wardrobe, humor, hair, attitude, conversation, hygene
Dating is a huge help. A girl will help you improve all of the above things.
WARNING: Don't apply hacker skills to understanding women (on anything more than a very high level). You'll hit a critical error.
Well have you read "How to Make Friends and Influence People"?
If you haven't, the advice in it sums up to: be honest, respect others, respect yourself. That's really all there is to it.
The important thing about how to make more friends is to know how to BE a friend. Think about what you can offer other people, think about how to make the law of comparative advantage work for you.
I also highly recommend Eckhart Tolle's "A New Earth" .. which will not directly talk about how to make friends, but will dig into the root causes of why you have issues with making friends.
Also I would say, one thing that helped me a lot, is I have recently been watching the latest season of "Beauty and the Geek." observe closely the character of "Joe," and instead of laughing at him or thinking how much better you are than him, think about how you are, how all of us are, so very much like him and so very much unwilling to admit it.
If you haven't, the advice in it sums up to: be honest, respect others, respect yourself. That's really all there is to it.
The important thing about how to make more friends is to know how to BE a friend. Think about what you can offer other people, think about how to make the law of comparative advantage work for you.
I also highly recommend Eckhart Tolle's "A New Earth" .. which will not directly talk about how to make friends, but will dig into the root causes of why you have issues with making friends.
Also I would say, one thing that helped me a lot, is I have recently been watching the latest season of "Beauty and the Geek." observe closely the character of "Joe," and instead of laughing at him or thinking how much better you are than him, think about how you are, how all of us are, so very much like him and so very much unwilling to admit it.
Learn to genuinely like people.
there are a lot of replies kind of like this. but wouldn't it be better to learn to accurately judge people, and not socialize with people who aren't worthwhile?
There's a difference between not actively spending time with people because you have other things to attend to, versus because you don't like them.
I am often forced to judge people. But I don't like it. At a deep level, I am unsuited towards judging people negatively.
I am often forced to judge people. But I don't like it. At a deep level, I am unsuited towards judging people negatively.
Judgmental people are not successful socially. Get off your geek high horse!
But it is for this very reason we geeks always gripe about higher management, at least the ethically loose people who blended in with the crowd to work their way up the ladder.
Truth before social success? Why would you want social stuff, or anything, that you hadn't judged was a good thing to want?
A few months ago I went down the same road that you did because of my frustrations with social interactions. I read "How to make friends...", tried to talk to people on the street, tried social lubricants like alcohol and caffeine. To my dismay, nothing seemed to work or stick. Then I read the book "The Game" and started getting into the "pick up" scene. While I felt (and still do) uncomfortable with the sometimes negative views of women and social interactions, I have to say that many of the "whys" and "hows" that they teach have helped me a great deal. The one that has helped me the most is http://www.pickuppodcast.com.
I skimmed that book. I did feel pretty energized and powerful after reading it, like I had the inside track on things. I feel weird about that sort of thing though. I don't want to get laid or anything.
One guy gave me roses to pass out to pretty women at a bar to try and hook up. I passed them out because I do like the idea of recognizing beautiful women, but I shut down when one actually was interested in me and tried to make contact. I also tried drinking and another tried dirty dancing with me, but I mainly just got depressed and I was pretty much a fish.
One guy gave me roses to pass out to pretty women at a bar to try and hook up. I passed them out because I do like the idea of recognizing beautiful women, but I shut down when one actually was interested in me and tried to make contact. I also tried drinking and another tried dirty dancing with me, but I mainly just got depressed and I was pretty much a fish.
I think it comes with age and experience.
When I was right off school, I had the same problems as you guys, mainly overthinking about everything, and everybody you meet, makes it hard to just have casual conversations.
Just as I learned in soccer, you should just stop overthinking and overanalyzing, and just go with it, causually and naturally.
Also, in my current job, I interact with a lot more people everyday, so I was forced out of my shell a while ago.
But, when you are in parties, you have to make some effort to reach to people and talk to them. Even thou nothing might come out of it, it is better than just staying in one corner and doing nothing.
Anyway, stop reading books and just put yourself out there and practice.
It will help when you meet girls.
When I was right off school, I had the same problems as you guys, mainly overthinking about everything, and everybody you meet, makes it hard to just have casual conversations.
Just as I learned in soccer, you should just stop overthinking and overanalyzing, and just go with it, causually and naturally.
Also, in my current job, I interact with a lot more people everyday, so I was forced out of my shell a while ago.
But, when you are in parties, you have to make some effort to reach to people and talk to them. Even thou nothing might come out of it, it is better than just staying in one corner and doing nothing.
Anyway, stop reading books and just put yourself out there and practice.
It will help when you meet girls.
I actually listen to PickUp Podcast (http://www.pickuppodcast.com) and found their advice to be right on point. I plan to enroll in one of their coaching programs in the near future.
Go to bars and pull up seats next to random people. Make a game out of it. See how long you can hold a conversation until it gets awkward.
Yeah, this sort of suggestion is motivating. Actions that shatter everyone's mental rut and bring newness to everyone's experience motivate me. I might do what you say, or something similar.
The thing that turns me off in interpersonal interaction is the rote manner of interaction that I don't know, and don't want to learn. When people interact as they really are is what interests me.
For instance, a teacher challenged me to ask a girl out, so I made a dare out of it with a friend. Girl turned me down though:P a couple of them.
The thing that turns me off in interpersonal interaction is the rote manner of interaction that I don't know, and don't want to learn. When people interact as they really are is what interests me.
For instance, a teacher challenged me to ask a girl out, so I made a dare out of it with a friend. Girl turned me down though:P a couple of them.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "rote manner of interaction that I don't know, and don't want to learn."
If you mean the talking about the weather thing, that's what talking people in bars should teach you to get beyond.
If you mean the talking about the weather thing, that's what talking people in bars should teach you to get beyond.
No, it isn't small talk. It's people expecting me to act in a certain way and not liking it when I don't.
Maybe I'm just wanting two conflicting goals. The expected way of acting is natural for most people, but not for me, and I wish I could interact in a way that is natural for me too.
I think I'll give the bar thing a shot. Any types of people I should watch out for?
Maybe I'm just wanting two conflicting goals. The expected way of acting is natural for most people, but not for me, and I wish I could interact in a way that is natural for me too.
I think I'll give the bar thing a shot. Any types of people I should watch out for?
I think people have fewer expectations than you might assume. Most people spend too much time judging themselves when interacting to bother doing it to others. But the way you judge yourself makes you assume others are judging you, but they're not, they're focusing on themselves. If that makes any sense, which it may not.
I'd say work your way up to attractive women. They're the hardest for a number of reasons (you're afraid of them due to approach anxiety, they're used to approaches and are more on their guard, etc.) Start off talking to guys and less attractive females. People are always most receptive toward people who appear to be in their own demographic and social status level, so start there and work your way out.
I'd say work your way up to attractive women. They're the hardest for a number of reasons (you're afraid of them due to approach anxiety, they're used to approaches and are more on their guard, etc.) Start off talking to guys and less attractive females. People are always most receptive toward people who appear to be in their own demographic and social status level, so start there and work your way out.
One more note. I don't think people are consciously judging me, it's just their natural reaction. I realize most people are much less aware than I am.
But, it isn't my natural reaction, which is why I have to learn how their system of interaction works, which seems like too much trouble.
But, it isn't my natural reaction, which is why I have to learn how their system of interaction works, which seems like too much trouble.
I could tell you what works for me, but unless your personality is much like mine (which is unlikely), that isn't going to help you.
The best way to find out what works is to try. Just go out there and interact with people. Observe them to see how you are doing.
The best way to find out what works is to try. Just go out there and interact with people. Observe them to see how you are doing.
You need not to talk much. I have read somewhere that if you listen 90% of the time and talk 10% of the time, people will find you very interesting and socially adept. Life as an introvert can be quite hard.
Eh, or if you're me people think your weird and aloof, or some kind of aspie.
Read "How to Win Friends and Influence People", then practice what you learn. It's even in the start up FAQ.
http://www.paulgraham.com/startupfaq.html
http://www.paulgraham.com/startupfaq.html
Just be a decent person - if you're at an event and talking to someone and another person is hovering near by, bring them into your conversation. Be friendly, try and help people etc
A lot of times, if you just force yourself to smile and be friendly, it starts to feel more natural. Just do it.
What was that one line? To be enthusiastic, you have to act enthusiastic!
What was that one line? To be enthusiastic, you have to act enthusiastic!
really, its very simple:
1) practice a lot
2) recognize/record your problems/faults/issues.
3) work on either improving the improvable problems, or working around the unimprovable ones.
it would really help to have a friend looking on from the outside to help note problems. you have to be really open to change to make this work, though.
1) practice a lot
2) recognize/record your problems/faults/issues.
3) work on either improving the improvable problems, or working around the unimprovable ones.
it would really help to have a friend looking on from the outside to help note problems. you have to be really open to change to make this work, though.
[deleted]
Just remember WWAPD: What Would Austin Powers Do?
Smile :-)
Pickup-chicks stuff I have to give very mixed reviews. Yes walking up and introducing yourself to people will make you better at talking to them. That much is certainly undeniable. But the online communities associated with such things have some significant downsides.
I hate to do this but I'm going to advocate acting classes. The reason I hate to do it is there's always somebody in an improv class who's obviously just there to become more spontaneous. If you study acting because you have a genuine interest in doing it, people who are there to become more spontaneous, or better at public speaking, or whatever, are just annoying as hell. Acting classes do make you socially adept but PLEASE avoid serious professional acting classes in favor of weekend workshops at community colleges. Also if you are "that guy" and you're taking acting classes without any real interest in acting please understand that the serious actors want you to die.
I think the best option suggested here is user groups and presentations in front of other geeks. Not because talking to geeks is going to expose you to incredible social skills - far from it - but because sincere interest is a much healthier motivator for any type of social activity than the desire to be social for its own sake.
I hate to do this but I'm going to advocate acting classes. The reason I hate to do it is there's always somebody in an improv class who's obviously just there to become more spontaneous. If you study acting because you have a genuine interest in doing it, people who are there to become more spontaneous, or better at public speaking, or whatever, are just annoying as hell. Acting classes do make you socially adept but PLEASE avoid serious professional acting classes in favor of weekend workshops at community colleges. Also if you are "that guy" and you're taking acting classes without any real interest in acting please understand that the serious actors want you to die.
I think the best option suggested here is user groups and presentations in front of other geeks. Not because talking to geeks is going to expose you to incredible social skills - far from it - but because sincere interest is a much healthier motivator for any type of social activity than the desire to be social for its own sake.
I did Toastmasters and was pretty good at it. I've also given presentations to large groups of people and high ranking people. I don't think public speaking and spontaneity are my problem.
Going out every day during lunch break to pick up girls in the town center with a guy who was very good and natural at it worked great for me.
So, I'd say find someone who's really good at socializing and hang out with him. 1000x better and faster than any book or doing it on your own.
So, I'd say find someone who's really good at socializing and hang out with him. 1000x better and faster than any book or doing it on your own.
don't. people are generally least interesting in casual, social situations. for example, most of the people in this thread have said reasonably interesting, intelligent ideas. but at a bar they'd say worse things.
For anyone who couldn't figure out what the earlier replies r.e. judging people had to do with anything, the parent reply is an illustration.
What he says is my problem though. I can't connect at the small talk level. I have an easy time talking with people like xlnt about abstract ideas and philosophy, but I suck at talking about "real" things.
"it's a feature not a bug"
what do you imagine would be the great benefits of having more casual social interactions?
what do you imagine would be the great benefits of having more casual social interactions?
I don't really know. I suspect you are right, that it is part of my nature to be this way. But it is hard for me to be convinced, since almost everyone I respect thinks differently and encourages me to be more social.
well, what do they say the benefits would be? ask them to give solid reasons, and explain it until you are convinced! and they ought to have a plan for how you can do it before being sure it's a good thing for you to do.
also they should be open to the possibility that they are mistaken; the conversation ought to be able to go either way.
also they should be open to the possibility that they are mistaken; the conversation ought to be able to go either way.
The basic point is that I'm narcissistic and need to be brought out of myself. I say I don't really know, because I can't see it myself. But, that's par for the problem of narcissism:P
Like Soothsayer said earlier, I recommend you read a book about Myer-Brigg personality types in order to understand why other people behave as they do, why they expect you to behave in the same way, and why it's not your natural inclination to do that. Then you can accept who you are, and understand that you're always going to be acting to some extend when, e.g., engaging in small talk.
A book would be better than an online test because the point should be to learn about all the other personality types, and how they interact, rather than understand your own.
http://www.amazon.com/Please-Understand-Me-Character-Tempera...
A book would be better than an online test because the point should be to learn about all the other personality types, and how they interact, rather than understand your own.
http://www.amazon.com/Please-Understand-Me-Character-Tempera...
Now that I think about it, that's a good suggestion.
that's sure taking the easy way out. "we can't give reasons because you have a sort of mild mental illness that prevents you from listening to any." you could ask them to give you reasons in text that you'll show a third party for evaluation. anyway, so far, i don't quite see why you'd listen to them about this particular issue.
Hmm, I'll try and push the issue more next time I talk with them.
The other reason is mere career progression, but I'm not especially keen on that either. I detest the artificial relationships of networking and the like. I'm of the opinion that I can easily be financially free in at most 5 years, so there is no need to make alot of money.
Maybe my real problem is a lack of courage to go with my own judgment. I'm confused though because my own judgment seems so much at variance with most people I know on this issue that it seems like I'm missing something.
The other reason is mere career progression, but I'm not especially keen on that either. I detest the artificial relationships of networking and the like. I'm of the opinion that I can easily be financially free in at most 5 years, so there is no need to make alot of money.
Maybe my real problem is a lack of courage to go with my own judgment. I'm confused though because my own judgment seems so much at variance with most people I know on this issue that it seems like I'm missing something.
Thanks for the comments, this is kinda cathartic to see that you guys care. I haven't really seen anything new though, so I think advice is useless for me.
- EDIT -
That's too strongly worded. I'm being moody.
Really though, I quite appreciate the concern. And I'll take the advice seriously and put it into practice.
- EDIT -
That's too strongly worded. I'm being moody.
Really though, I quite appreciate the concern. And I'll take the advice seriously and put it into practice.
I think motivating others to socializing with you would be more comfortable for you (as in let them do the work, so to speak), and that takes charisma. Didn't pg write that (paraphrasing) charisma is basically about liking people?
Disclaimer: I am quite socially inept, and don't even care . . .
Disclaimer: I am quite socially inept, and don't even care . . .