Planning for Failure - Greyhound Knows How to Fail(planningforfailure.com)
planningforfailure.com
Planning for Failure - Greyhound Knows How to Fail
http://www.planningforfailure.com/post/753812919/greyhound-knows-how-to-fail
I had the pleasure of attending Agile Coach Camp Canada this year. It was an amazing experience. I’ll be writing about that experience in a future post, but in this post, I would like to address what I had to go through just to get to the conference...
17 comments
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"Agile Coach Camp Canada"
Ironically, it sounds as if he is going to a conference about improving public transport.
Ironically, it sounds as if he is going to a conference about improving public transport.
It is ridiculous to assume this situation exists as a result of lack of capability on Greyhound's part. It exists because they make more money this way from people who can't figure out how to make Greyhound give them their money back. Why change it and reduce revenue?
Ah, I love the ending! Aren't credit cards great? They actually believe their customers when you tell them you didn't get something.
I suspect they too know this "happens sometimes" with Greyhound.
Agreed, I wish more people charged back in situations like these, then the black mark would clearly be on the bad companies rather than the small% of customers who actually do it.
(Side note, I only skimmed the article, but a good piece of advice is to mention charge back a few times when you're in this kind of situation. I find that it speeds up the outcome, succeed or fail.)
(Side note, I only skimmed the article, but a good piece of advice is to mention charge back a few times when you're in this kind of situation. I find that it speeds up the outcome, succeed or fail.)
This is a nice feature of credit cards. But no, I don't think credit cards are "great". They hurt small businesses, and because they refund to the customer so quickly, businesses usually take the loss in identity theft and similar situations.
Here in the UK they are obligated to by the Consumer Credit Act.
Having said that, Amex would kick ass on your behalf anyway, since their target market could have any card they wanted, they compete on customer service.
Having said that, Amex would kick ass on your behalf anyway, since their target market could have any card they wanted, they compete on customer service.
> You want to plan for failure? Start by not caring about your customers. Be just like Greyhound and you’ll achieve failure soon enough.
> Quality and service matter.
> Those who care, win.
Well, maybe. I mean I see his point, but the fact remains that Greyhound is probably the most successful bus company in the U.S. Could it be that customer service is not as critical to business success as the writer claims it is? I mean I wish it were, but this is reality we're talking about.
> Quality and service matter.
> Those who care, win.
Well, maybe. I mean I see his point, but the fact remains that Greyhound is probably the most successful bus company in the U.S. Could it be that customer service is not as critical to business success as the writer claims it is? I mean I wish it were, but this is reality we're talking about.
I would guess most customers just buy their tickets in the bus station. Website, e-commerce, phone support, all fairly irrelevant to that group.
Having traveled by Greyhound a few times, that is definitely the case. Most travelers are poor, and many of them don't even have credit cards (either because they are poor, or illegals, or both).
The minimum capital I can think of for entering the bus transportation market is well, big long comfortable bus with all the whistle and doodads, fuels, a driver who doesn't crash the bus, and a machine to receive money. Then you need money for paying mechanics, accountants, and gods know what else.
So it might be that Greyhound just doesn't have a whole lot of competition due to high barrier of entry.
So it might be that Greyhound just doesn't have a whole lot of competition due to high barrier of entry.
Well in the DC-NYC-Boston corridor they have a ton of competition. Because all you really need is one bus you can drive yourself (or you and your extended family). Google "Chinatown Bus."
Fung Wah, from Boston <-> NY for something like $15. For a while, it seemed like every week there was news of another Fung Wah accident, whether it be hitting the Mass Pike toll booths or tipping over on the on ramp. They should have advertised "$15 for an ADVENTURE"
Even better, there was a period of time (somewhere around 2003-2004 IIRC) when the CT police decided that shaking down the Fung Wah bus would be a great way to make their narcotics quota. Supposedly it was being used by drug mules. They were stopping the (northbound only?) busses just south of Sturbridge MA seemingly daily, and about once a week there'd be a story of "$LARGEQUANTITY of $NARCOTIC confiscated from Boston-NYC Bus".
I'm not quite sure what the MO of the drug transporters was; I never heard of any arrests so I think they must have been using it basically as a moving dead drop.
The few times I took it though were, sadly, uneventful. One lady did have a live chicken with her, but that was about it.
I'm not quite sure what the MO of the drug transporters was; I never heard of any arrests so I think they must have been using it basically as a moving dead drop.
The few times I took it though were, sadly, uneventful. One lady did have a live chicken with her, but that was about it.
I spent 3 hours sitting on the side of the Jersey turnpike thanks to Fung Wah, but $15 for DC -> NY I might do it again.
Some of these do LA->SF too since there's no good train option for that. It's retarded to take Greyhound because the Chinatown buses will go direct.
I wouldn't mind knowing what's more expensive: all that you mentioned; or the public liability insurance.
I've looked into this.
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1476718
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1476718
For high-volume routes the Chinatown busses compete very successfully, but Greyhound's real competition is Southwest, Spirit Air, Amtrak, or just driving yourself. Greyhound has become so bad that their clientele is down to folks who literally have no other option.
It probably depends a lot on the industry. If your ticket purchase works, you never need to speak to a human being to ride a bus. Contrast this with cable companies - to sign up, you must have at least two customer service experiences: one to schedule the appointment, one to have the service installed. I think this accounts for their generally poor public opinion. They're not actually worse than most companies, but their customer service footprint is frontloaded and big.
I bet Greyhound receives an extremely low call volume in comparison. After all, by default, you don't talk to a human. Most callers with special complaints are probably routed to people with scripts that have most arrows point to "I'm sorry, but I can't help you. Do you have any other issues today?", and Greyhound has made the calculation that this will not impact their bottom line.
I bet Greyhound receives an extremely low call volume in comparison. After all, by default, you don't talk to a human. Most callers with special complaints are probably routed to people with scripts that have most arrows point to "I'm sorry, but I can't help you. Do you have any other issues today?", and Greyhound has made the calculation that this will not impact their bottom line.
This is ripe for The Consumerist website. I suggest if it's available in your area, take the Megabus over Greyhound. Free Wifi on board.
That's actually not a bad recommendation. If I've inferred correctly from the article, the writer is from Canada, and I am as well. Bus service choices are pretty limited in Canada.
Megabus, for example, only travels between about 6 or 7 cities in eastern Ontario and Quebec. Being from western Canada, our choices are incredibly limited here - Greyhound between major destinations along the Trans Canada highway, basically, or a regional carrier.
That said, the bus is one of my favourite ways to travel, as I very much enjoy having the option to read, code, sleep, etc. on long journeys. This is the same reason I enjoy train travel.
Megabus, for example, only travels between about 6 or 7 cities in eastern Ontario and Quebec. Being from western Canada, our choices are incredibly limited here - Greyhound between major destinations along the Trans Canada highway, basically, or a regional carrier.
That said, the bus is one of my favourite ways to travel, as I very much enjoy having the option to read, code, sleep, etc. on long journeys. This is the same reason I enjoy train travel.
I took my share of Greyhound trips from Ottawa to Toronto, because it was cheaper than VIA Rail was. The last straw was when the bus that I was to take from Toronto to where I live left two hours early, leaving me stranded in Toronto at 6 AM after taking a 5 hour bus ride from Ottawa. Thank God for GO Transit.
What I really hate about them is that they have a schedule, but not really. They constantly sell more tickets than there are seats on the bus. The good part about this is that since your ticket isn't connected to a bus, you can take one any time on that day. But then of course 200 people try to get on an 80 person bus. It's a terrible mess.
To make matters worse, none of the other bus companies in Southern Ontario actually go to Ottawa, so its Greyhound or nothing.
So now I only take the train. It is always a pleasant trip. Definitely worth the price.
What I really hate about them is that they have a schedule, but not really. They constantly sell more tickets than there are seats on the bus. The good part about this is that since your ticket isn't connected to a bus, you can take one any time on that day. But then of course 200 people try to get on an 80 person bus. It's a terrible mess.
To make matters worse, none of the other bus companies in Southern Ontario actually go to Ottawa, so its Greyhound or nothing.
So now I only take the train. It is always a pleasant trip. Definitely worth the price.
I only take the train now too.
Experience on Greyhound: forced to buy two tickets for the same trip. Experience on VIA Rail: picture with the Stanley Cup.
Experience on Greyhound: forced to buy two tickets for the same trip. Experience on VIA Rail: picture with the Stanley Cup.
Megabus, for example, only travels between about 6 or 7 cities in eastern Ontario and Quebec.
That makes Megabus the Southwest of Canadian bus service.
That makes Megabus the Southwest of Canadian bus service.
Bolt Bus is on the same level as Megabus. It's cheap, very clean, and has free wifi on board.
Surprise, Bolt Bus is a 50/50 venture between Greyhound and Peter Pan.
I would have gone for the chargeback way sooner than that, roughly at the time I had the thought, "why am I jumping through this many hoops for their screwup?"
Definitely. The chargeback is an underutilized feature of credit cards. A couple of things about chargebacks:
1. In my experience, you don't need to provide any documentation unless the merchant disputes your chargeback. So you should keep documentation, receipts, screen shots, notes, but not worry about filling out a detailed initial incident report.
2. Some people have claimed that you risk running afoul of your credit card if you use this feature too often. I'd say I use it twice per year and I've never been hassled.
3. Morally, I think you're just obligated to make a single attempt to rectify a misunderstanding with a merchant.
4. My credit cards let me fill out a report online, which makes this extremely convenient.
1. In my experience, you don't need to provide any documentation unless the merchant disputes your chargeback. So you should keep documentation, receipts, screen shots, notes, but not worry about filling out a detailed initial incident report.
2. Some people have claimed that you risk running afoul of your credit card if you use this feature too often. I'd say I use it twice per year and I've never been hassled.
3. Morally, I think you're just obligated to make a single attempt to rectify a misunderstanding with a merchant.
4. My credit cards let me fill out a report online, which makes this extremely convenient.
Despite all the hate for American Express's laughably weak passwords, they make incredibly easy to dispute a charge. There's literally a button by every transaction on listed in your account, just begging for you to click it.
actually amex are also the best for chargebacks from a merchant's perspective. they have an online interface you can log-in to and instantly see inquiries, fraud and chargebacks, and respond immediately.
they're also excellent about managing chargebacks, like when a chargeback comes through and you've already given a refund. this is so frustrating with Visa -- they'll actually still process the chargeback and ding you $20, even though you've already given the money back.
they're also excellent about managing chargebacks, like when a chargeback comes through and you've already given a refund. this is so frustrating with Visa -- they'll actually still process the chargeback and ding you $20, even though you've already given the money back.
The standard chargeback fee for a merchant is $25 per disputed transaction, regardless of if the customer's dispute is valid or not.
AMEX not only provides the best interface to manage chargebacks, but they also don't charge a chargeback fee at all.
AMEX not only provides the best interface to manage chargebacks, but they also don't charge a chargeback fee at all.
weak passwords? 8 characters ought to be enough for anybody.
My guess is that's a reference to this article http://trn.n0t.net/post/374883143/i-wish-that-i-could-use-a-... and HN discussion http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1108482 from a few months ago.
It's funny I just noticed this the other day on my account -- they even tell you when you try to log in that your password must be 8 chars. Might as well tell you that all passwords must begin with A.
Two chargebacks a year? Thats quite a bit. Do you deal with a lot of sketchy places? Do you file a chargeback if you're not happy with the service?
Sketchy like Greyhound? Any company that I have to do a chargeback with permanently gets labeled a sketchy company in my mind. The ones I can remember though are big brand name companies.
I cancelled a subscription to XM and they kept billing me. I called to recancel and get a refund, but neither happened. So I did a chargeback.
That's typical of the experience that would lead me to file a chargeback. If I was billed for a service that I didn't receive and my first attempt to go through customer service fails then I immediately ask my credit card for a chargeback.
That seems fair to me.
I cancelled a subscription to XM and they kept billing me. I called to recancel and get a refund, but neither happened. So I did a chargeback.
That's typical of the experience that would lead me to file a chargeback. If I was billed for a service that I didn't receive and my first attempt to go through customer service fails then I immediately ask my credit card for a chargeback.
That seems fair to me.
XM keeps doing this to me too. Thanks for reminding me to check for it again.
As an added bonus I believe there is a fine to the company for each charge back. I'm not entirely true if this is correct, or if its only partially correct however even the thought makes me smile when I think about how frustrated the company had just made me feel.
It's even better. In addition to the chargeback fees, there are steep fines for chargebacks exceeding some percentage of merchant's transaction total plus the risk of losing the merchant account altogether.
Specifically, my merchant account charges $30 per chargeback and they say there's trouble if more than 1% of your transactions are disputed, regardless of the outcome.
Also it's a huge pain in the ass to dispute, even when the merchant is obviously right. Most small merchants fear chargebacks, not so sure about big companies though.
Also it's a huge pain in the ass to dispute, even when the merchant is obviously right. Most small merchants fear chargebacks, not so sure about big companies though.
But that makes for a boring customer service case study.
I had the EXACT same experience.
Same situation, same results.
Although I never called my credit card company to do a charge back. In fact, right until this moment, I did not even know I can do this. It's been a year now. I am a cofounder and sole developer of a startup, and I am working full time to pay my bills and for immigration purposes. Basically, I figured I would rather not waste time at all, since I am really out of it. So do you think it might be worth a shot to even try to get that charge back from my credit card company, after almost a year? In my opinion, it might lead to more issues. It's 50 bucks. What do you suggest? Worth my time?
Although I never called my credit card company to do a charge back. In fact, right until this moment, I did not even know I can do this. It's been a year now. I am a cofounder and sole developer of a startup, and I am working full time to pay my bills and for immigration purposes. Basically, I figured I would rather not waste time at all, since I am really out of it. So do you think it might be worth a shot to even try to get that charge back from my credit card company, after almost a year? In my opinion, it might lead to more issues. It's 50 bucks. What do you suggest? Worth my time?
AMEX are very good about refunding transactions up to 3 months old - after that it is more difficult. (very good == one easy phone call, instant temporary refund, they send you lots of letters (for months)(bad), they eventually decide to make the refund permanent).
The title of this article is a bit confusing.
Given that the blog itself is called "Planning For Failure," I expected it to be about how Greyhound "knew" how to fail in a graceful manner. I read through about halfway until I realized it was just a rant about failure at various points in Greyhound's ticketing system.
Nothing wrong with that, just not the article I was expecting to read.
Given that the blog itself is called "Planning For Failure," I expected it to be about how Greyhound "knew" how to fail in a graceful manner. I read through about halfway until I realized it was just a rant about failure at various points in Greyhound's ticketing system.
Nothing wrong with that, just not the article I was expecting to read.
True, but almost everyone he came into contact with knew about the failure, knew it 'happened sometimes', yet still did not know how to fix it!
Reading this, I almost get the impression that it's an elaborate attempt to fail in the most miserable way possible. Either that or they wanted to create a Kafka experience.
That same thing happened to me. I sent my extra, unused ticket reciept in to their corporate office in Texas and they sent me a refund in a mere six weeks.
This company seems to have a monopoly in the long-distance bus service market. I also think the majority of their business is done offline (in-person sales at stations). So, unfortunately, these terrible systems aren't likely to change anytime soon.
This company seems to have a monopoly in the long-distance bus service market. I also think the majority of their business is done offline (in-person sales at stations). So, unfortunately, these terrible systems aren't likely to change anytime soon.
As I was reading this, I kept chanting "charge... back! charge... back! charge... back!" in the back of my mind. I was happy to find that that's exactly how he resolved the situation.
Never do a big company a favor, especially when they won't return it. Sure, he could have gotten his money back by faxing stuff and mailing stuff and being glued to the phone for a day. Or he could fill out a form on his credit card's website, and now Greyhound has to do all the dirty work. Which would you choose?
Never do a big company a favor, especially when they won't return it. Sure, he could have gotten his money back by faxing stuff and mailing stuff and being glued to the phone for a day. Or he could fill out a form on his credit card's website, and now Greyhound has to do all the dirty work. Which would you choose?
Greyhound service is terrible, but they can get away with it because they're the cheapest way to get from one side of the country to the other. It's a 4 day ride, the seats won't recline, it smells like someone crapped in their pants, the terminals are scary, and your luggage will get lost, but you save a few hundred over the next cheapest option.
(I did toronto to vancouver and back a couple years ago. It's 8 days you won't soon forget!)
(I did toronto to vancouver and back a couple years ago. It's 8 days you won't soon forget!)
If you're going coast to coast in the US with advanced notice, a plane ticket can often be cheaper.
Might be something to do with lots of luggage? I'd imagine this would be a lot cheaper on a bus than on a plane?
So hard not to rage in sympathy-frustration while reading this
It's not just tickets, every part of the Greyhound experience is piss-poor. Never again.
When I imagine riding the bus, I would never expect fancy web pages and automated credit card processing. You want modern efficiency, try the airport.
Bus travelers purchase tickets in person, on the day of travel, with wadded up old paper currency. That's the way it's always been, and always will be.
Bus travelers purchase tickets in person, on the day of travel, with wadded up old paper currency. That's the way it's always been, and always will be.
Did you just mention efficiency and the place where TSA cretin squad plants their fat asses in the same sentence?
the interesting lesson here for everyone who accepts credit cards is this: think you don't have a satisfaction guaranteed, money back policy? think again.
Now, I don't think this is a bad thing, but I wonder why more businesses don't offer a money back guarantee as policy straight up? I mean, if the customer wants their money back, the customer will get their money back; there's not much you can do about it. So why not have a liberal money back policy yourself? it prevents most chargebacks (but not all... some consumers are either just jerks or assume you will give them the run-around, those people will initiate chargebacks even if you do have an easy money-back policy) and you get a lot more goodwill out of a refund you give than out of a chargeback.
Now, I don't think this is a bad thing, but I wonder why more businesses don't offer a money back guarantee as policy straight up? I mean, if the customer wants their money back, the customer will get their money back; there's not much you can do about it. So why not have a liberal money back policy yourself? it prevents most chargebacks (but not all... some consumers are either just jerks or assume you will give them the run-around, those people will initiate chargebacks even if you do have an easy money-back policy) and you get a lot more goodwill out of a refund you give than out of a chargeback.
Greyhound's failure happened years ago because of a changing demographic in America. Small-town America rode buses all over the place between WWI and WWI and Greyhound prospered in meeting the market demand for this service. At that time, the interstate highway system did not exist and travel of this type was best done by bus. With the advent of the freeway system, and with the rise of modern air travel, the glory days of back-road bus service ended. Greyhound eventually filed for bankruptcy and, after emerging, has been a ghost of its old self. "Is this 1958?" the author of this piece asks in amazement. Well, for a company long operating at the margins, it might as well be and its customer service appears to be nothing more than a reflection of this reality.
Greyhound's "failure" happened in reality long ago and what we see now is a company that is among the walking dead. This does not excuse what happened to this poor, hapless customer but it probably explains it.
Greyhound's "failure" happened in reality long ago and what we see now is a company that is among the walking dead. This does not excuse what happened to this poor, hapless customer but it probably explains it.
The British FirstGroup PLC owns Laidlaw Int'l which owns Greyhound. FirstGroup, with the tag line "Transforming Travel", seems to see this relic of America's past as its ticket to Britain's future and features it prominently on FirstGroup's UK home page. A bankrupted company that is part of the "holdings" of a clueless company that itself is a property of an investment vehicle for moneyed "Lords" on the other side of the planet is about the closest thing the capitalist west has to a Soviet / Chinese / French government agency in terms of service orientation.
I meant to add "in the private sector." It's a great way to turn a private company into a pseudo-gov't bureau.