HTML5 Anonymous Bitcoin Poker(bearcoinpoker.com)
bearcoinpoker.com
HTML5 Anonymous Bitcoin Poker
https://www.bearcoinpoker.com
57 comments
The only gambling occurring is the gambling that this is a trust-worthy implementation of multi-player poker.
Fair enough, but you stand to make a lot more from being trustworthy than not... I think this is an excellent idea.
> you stand to make a lot more from being trustworthy than not...
What? How do you justify that conclusion? That seems at odds with most of the history of gambling.
You make the most money if you appear trustworthy but aren't.
What? How do you justify that conclusion? That seems at odds with most of the history of gambling.
You make the most money if you appear trustworthy but aren't.
No. Casinos are trustworthy, or at least you know the house always wins :-)
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How have other sites established credibility?
Usually by having their RNG audited and/or open-sourced/testible (though that has its own potential problems) followed by marketing and support and time in existence.
The newer a poker site is, the more likely it is to be shady, simply because it hasn't had anecdotal reports of it not being shady from actual players.
The newer a poker site is, the more likely it is to be shady, simply because it hasn't had anecdotal reports of it not being shady from actual players.
I experimented with this a few years ago. Even going as far as creating https://bitflop.me. I came to the conclusion that the future legal battles would just not be worth it.
very interesting... WebRTC and poker - In the 'About us', you had mentioned on putting it on GitHub... is it still the plan?
That looks really cool, would love to see a mobile version of this.
is this project in development?
> I came to the conclusion that the future legal battles would just not be worth it.
So, no. Wise decision, at least if you're Stateside. Government wants to preserve its monopoly on gambling.
So, no. Wise decision, at least if you're Stateside. Government wants to preserve its monopoly on gambling.
What assurances are there that the house isn't cheating?
The house makes money from rake. This means it's not in the house's interest to enable any cheating, since cheating makes the house less trustworthy, and therefore, there is less rake being generated.
Unfortunately the criminal mind discounts the possibility of getting caught. There have been several big scandals of this sort in online poker. Scams at Absolute, Full Tilt and others have been uncovered.
Most poker-room scandals are separate from the house cheating and more to do with bad accounting/book keeping practices and out right stealing.
The Ultimate Bet / Absolute scandal involved super-user accounts being used to reveal hole-cards of opponents and that most certainly was cheating.
The end result is that room went down in infamy and most of the people associated with it at the highest levels are looked down upon in the poker community.
On the other hand, Poker Stars ended up picking up the tab for Full Tilt, which is now a fairly trustworthy room thanks to Poker Stars' management.
The Ultimate Bet / Absolute scandal involved super-user accounts being used to reveal hole-cards of opponents and that most certainly was cheating.
The end result is that room went down in infamy and most of the people associated with it at the highest levels are looked down upon in the poker community.
On the other hand, Poker Stars ended up picking up the tab for Full Tilt, which is now a fairly trustworthy room thanks to Poker Stars' management.
Not to mention that fult tilt probably could have gotten away with it indefinitely if they weren't shut down. They were basically practicing a form of fractional reserve.
I deposited 0.6 btc, messed around with the site a little bit (didn't play a single game) and ended now there's only 0.07 btc on my account.
I'm not sure if losing your customers coins is such a great business model.
I'm not sure if losing your customers coins is such a great business model.
Please provide me your username, I'll check and make sure this never happened.
how does it stop collusion at the tables ?
Look left; look right. If you're not colluding with either of those guys, then they're probably colluding against you. :-/
Not reassuring. If there's money to be made, people will try to make it. It's reasonable to assume a group of friends would take a weekend trying to collude at poker.
There are a few things you could potentially do to make it not worth their time. The first is to take money before assigning a table, and then randomly assigning the person. The second is to have the house take such a large cut that even with collusion it's not profitable.
You still have to worry about Sybil attacks. It's one thing for me and my 3 friends to play poker together and try to land at the same table. It's another for me and my 1000 bots at different IP addresses (bots who will, of course, play computationally perfect games and collude any time they are at the same table) to try and beat the odds.
There are a few things you could potentially do to make it not worth their time. The first is to take money before assigning a table, and then randomly assigning the person. The second is to have the house take such a large cut that even with collusion it's not profitable.
You still have to worry about Sybil attacks. It's one thing for me and my 3 friends to play poker together and try to land at the same table. It's another for me and my 1000 bots at different IP addresses (bots who will, of course, play computationally perfect games and collude any time they are at the same table) to try and beat the odds.
Impossible to stop, unless you strictly play heads up poker.
Even in the far fetched scenario where you place participants in Faraday cages, they can still communicate by timing bets, changing amounts, etc.
Even in the far fetched scenario where you place participants in Faraday cages, they can still communicate by timing bets, changing amounts, etc.
Connection from the same place on the same table are forbidden (comparaison between address is done on hashed ip's)
If only there were some way for them to communicate remotely without being in the same room together.
Highly hashed IPs. Highly. Hashed. That made my day.
Sorry, not used to speak about that with competent people :D
There are few enough IPv4 addresses that just about any hash forms an injective mapping which can be completely reversed: the best you can do is use something like HMAC and "pepper" it, but that only works if the clients can't verify or generate them.
They are server side, salted, and use multiple round hashing :)
My poker buddies from college are now all over the world. You can't identify us and ban us from playing at the same tables.
No, but you can definitely identify collusion. It's really very simple. When you see the guy with JJ fold preflop and the two remaining players have, say, AA and AQ, it suggests that JJ and AA have colluded to keep AQ in the pot. So you build a pipeline to process and detect this sort of thing. It doesn't have to be realtime. Same day would suffice. Besides, you will need hundreds, maybe thousands of hands to classify it reliably.
And you can be certain that none of that is happening in this example and I'd never play there -- unless I wanted to collude with friends.
And you can be certain that none of that is happening in this example and I'd never play there -- unless I wanted to collude with friends.
Trivially circumvented with a proxy server, or simply, some other machine on a different network.
There is no way to stop serious and experienced collusion from any table in any online poker room in the world.
As others have mentioned, proxies and out of band communication make it nearly impossible to really detect.
That said, detecting blatant or clueless collusion is fairly simple, as things like chip dumping and soft-playing can become fairly obvious just by observing play.
As others have mentioned, proxies and out of band communication make it nearly impossible to really detect.
That said, detecting blatant or clueless collusion is fairly simple, as things like chip dumping and soft-playing can become fairly obvious just by observing play.
I think a site like this can easily make more money then say a drug-store on darknet, but perfectly legal.
There are some challenges though, like multi account cheating, and bot players.
There are some challenges though, like multi account cheating, and bot players.
Why do you believe this is legal?
http://www.pokernews.com/news/2015/02/seals-with-clubs-chair...
http://www.pokernews.com/news/2015/02/seals-with-clubs-chair...
Their problem was accepting players from legal states (Nevada, Delaware, New Jersey), and in this case, specifically the Nevada Gaming Commission came at them for not registering to be regulated while accepting US players and having "company officers" in the US.
The truth is, Micon was the "chairman", but the actual operations and such all took place out of country.
Crypto currency gambling is legal in the United States so long as there is no USD involved because crypto currencies are akin to stocks. You don't pay capital gains until you convert stocks into USD or other fiat currencies.
The implication is that somehow Micon may have been turning BTC from seals into USD and not giving a cut to the Nevada Gaming Commission.
The truth is, Micon was the "chairman", but the actual operations and such all took place out of country.
Crypto currency gambling is legal in the United States so long as there is no USD involved because crypto currencies are akin to stocks. You don't pay capital gains until you convert stocks into USD or other fiat currencies.
The implication is that somehow Micon may have been turning BTC from seals into USD and not giving a cut to the Nevada Gaming Commission.
The law says nothing about "dollars".
Here's what it says:
(4) Financial transaction provider.— The term “financial transaction provider” means a creditor, credit card issuer, financial institution, operator of a terminal at which an electronic fund transfer may be initiated, money transmitting business, or international, national, regional, or local payment network utilized to effect a credit transaction, electronic fund transfer, stored value product transaction, or money transmitting service, or a participant in such network, or other participant in a designated payment system.
No person engaged in the business of betting or wagering may knowingly accept, in connection with the participation of another person in unlawful Internet gambling—
(1) credit, or the proceeds of credit, extended to or on behalf of such other person (including credit extended through the use of a credit card);
(2) an electronic fund transfer, or funds transmitted by or through a money transmitting business, or the proceeds of an electronic fund transfer or money transmitting service, from or on behalf of such other person;
(3) any check, draft, or similar instrument which is drawn by or on behalf of such other person and is drawn on or payable at or through any financial institution; or
(4) the proceeds of any other form of financial transaction, as the Secretary and the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System may jointly prescribe by regulation, which involves a financial institution as a payor or financial intermediary on behalf of or for the benefit of such other person.
Here's what it says:
(4) Financial transaction provider.— The term “financial transaction provider” means a creditor, credit card issuer, financial institution, operator of a terminal at which an electronic fund transfer may be initiated, money transmitting business, or international, national, regional, or local payment network utilized to effect a credit transaction, electronic fund transfer, stored value product transaction, or money transmitting service, or a participant in such network, or other participant in a designated payment system.
No person engaged in the business of betting or wagering may knowingly accept, in connection with the participation of another person in unlawful Internet gambling—
(1) credit, or the proceeds of credit, extended to or on behalf of such other person (including credit extended through the use of a credit card);
(2) an electronic fund transfer, or funds transmitted by or through a money transmitting business, or the proceeds of an electronic fund transfer or money transmitting service, from or on behalf of such other person;
(3) any check, draft, or similar instrument which is drawn by or on behalf of such other person and is drawn on or payable at or through any financial institution; or
(4) the proceeds of any other form of financial transaction, as the Secretary and the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System may jointly prescribe by regulation, which involves a financial institution as a payor or financial intermediary on behalf of or for the benefit of such other person.
The items you posted seem to be pretty squarely related to USD. I am not aware of a BTC credit system or financial institutions involved with BTC in the US aside from the likes of Coinbase, et al, who, being involved in the USD side of things, are explicitly anti-gambling themselves.
Crypto coins are stocks, not money, according to the IRS. There are no written checks for crypto currency. There is no financial institution involved in the transmission of crypto currency.
Crypto coins are stocks, not money, according to the IRS. There are no written checks for crypto currency. There is no financial institution involved in the transmission of crypto currency.
It's completely illegal, even in territories that allow online gambling.
How are they preventing underage gambling if the site is completely anonymous?
How are they preventing underage gambling if the site is completely anonymous?
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I thought online gambling was generally not legal.
I'm in the United States. To my knowledge online gambling is not strictly illegal, but it's illegal for online casinos to send or receive money to or from any banking or crediting organization, therefore preventing users from transferring money into casino accounts. Bitcoin is still in a weird realm where it's considered property rather than a currency, which I imagine would make it similar to gambling with gold. (My knowledge is outdated by a couple years, so please correct me if I'm wrong.)
This is my understanding, as well.
The anti-gambling/anti-poker laws from "Black Friday" in 2011 actually have to do with banking and USD.
This is why there are actually several US-facing card rooms operating out of country semi-legally - they do not do banking in the US, so they are not afoul of laws in most states. I believe New York is a notable exception along with a few other states which sites like Bovada will not accept US users from.
The anti-gambling/anti-poker laws from "Black Friday" in 2011 actually have to do with banking and USD.
This is why there are actually several US-facing card rooms operating out of country semi-legally - they do not do banking in the US, so they are not afoul of laws in most states. I believe New York is a notable exception along with a few other states which sites like Bovada will not accept US users from.
it has been cleared up, and completely legal now federally. That is why NJ, and NV, and DE have their own online gambling laws. The problem is that they all are designed to help the local business owners, and not promote the freedom of their residents.
i'm mildly terrible at poker, but trying to improve. unfortunately, it's hard to practice unless money is on the line. i'd like to be able to play online (with smaller blinds and rake than a brick and mortar casino). i'm not interested in being able to "cash out" ... it's a purely money losing proposition because of my lack of skill
any idea if there's a way i could play on any of these sites in this manner ?
any idea if there's a way i could play on any of these sites in this manner ?
The crypto currency sites I'm aware of such as seals (swcpoker.eu), shibes (pokershibes.eu), and betcoin (betcoin.ag) all have "microstakes" levels.
On the other hand, all of them have low volume of users, so you may not find a game immediately on any of them.
On the other hand, all of them have low volume of users, so you may not find a game immediately on any of them.
> therefore preventing users from transferring money into casino accounts. Bitcoin is still in a weird realm where it's considered property rather than a currency
...for tax purposes by the IRS. That's completely separate from its treatment in regard to other things, like financial services (e.g., money transmitter) regulation, and potentially gambling regulation.
...for tax purposes by the IRS. That's completely separate from its treatment in regard to other things, like financial services (e.g., money transmitter) regulation, and potentially gambling regulation.
It's illegal in the country I live in, but we still have tons of TV commercials for online gaming. So it's legal to play, but the site and company needs to be located in a country where it's legal. And they also would have to pay taxes.
Using something like Ethereum, it's actually possible to prove that the house is fair: https://forum.ethereum.org/discussion/comment/2944/#Comment_...
It involves a clever trick for keeping hole cards and the deck initially secret, despite the fact that everything in the blockchain is public.
It involves a clever trick for keeping hole cards and the deck initially secret, despite the fact that everything in the blockchain is public.
It seems like the basic poker-game-algorithm is broken here. I have been able to play without paying blinds, which is not how poker works, generally.
Ahah, yeah, that's a quick bug we introduced today, you were able to join a table without paying the first blind :D
It's been fixed for a few hours now :)
frequently loses connection and when i reconnect the old dealt cards for a hand are not redrawn, only the newly dealt cards for that hand are drawn.
That's a feature. Don't want to look like a noob, peeking at your hole cards more than once...
Thanks for the bug report, fixed now :)