Haunting message penned from Soviet 'slaves' found buried in Urals theatre(siberiantimes.com)
siberiantimes.com
Haunting message penned from Soviet 'slaves' found buried in Urals theatre
http://siberiantimes.com/other/others/news/n0241-haunting-message-penned-in-nail-polish-from-soviet-slaves-found-buried-in-urals-theatre/
4 comments
I was going to say the opposite -- feels shitty to read that and see that it's still happening, though I guess I could take comfort in that it's less prevalent now.
I'm just glad they've finally been heard.
I can't for the life of me figure out why the headline writer put the word 'slaves' in quotes.
Probably because they were technically convicts from governments point of view, instead of outright slaves or someones property.
I'm a bit surprised by 1954 as the date, since it's pretty far from the original purges in the 30s, but not at all surprised by the find. The disappearances and summary judgements, resulting in either executions or the slow rot of the labor camps, are well documented.
A person I know from that same town found a German gun folded in oiled cloth in his parents' ceiling when he was renovating. The building was built by German POWs.
I'm a bit surprised by 1954 as the date, since it's pretty far from the original purges in the 30s, but not at all surprised by the find. The disappearances and summary judgements, resulting in either executions or the slow rot of the labor camps, are well documented.
A person I know from that same town found a German gun folded in oiled cloth in his parents' ceiling when he was renovating. The building was built by German POWs.
A huge number of soldiers returning from the war had been handed 25-year (in most cases equivalent to life-long) sentences under the 58th article of the Soviet penal code (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_58_(RSFSR_Penal_Code) — the Soviet Union officially had no political prisoners, only criminals). For the most part, their crime was contact with other Allied troops, so it was easy to accuse them of contact with the West, and eliminate any dangerous ideas they could have brought into the bright nation of the dictatorship of the proletariat, the heaven of the working man. These people would have been serving their sentences through the 1950s, and Khruschev's rehabilitation policies (far from popular in the Politburo) did not start until 1956.
I know it was called the glorious proletariat, but I was wondering if the working men, proles, brought it about. I guess they didn't, but I am wondering how it all happened.
they were technically convicts from governments point of view
This isn't entirely true. The work camps were powered by convicts, but also by putatively free exiles who had been sent there for a variety of reasons. And in some cases, convicts who had completed their sentences were technically freed, but not allowed to leave the camps anyway.
Source: I'm currently reading "Gulag: A History" by Anne Applebaum. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/224379.Gulag
This isn't entirely true. The work camps were powered by convicts, but also by putatively free exiles who had been sent there for a variety of reasons. And in some cases, convicts who had completed their sentences were technically freed, but not allowed to leave the camps anyway.
Source: I'm currently reading "Gulag: A History" by Anne Applebaum. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/224379.Gulag
They deported loads of people from occupied territories after end of war and releasing them only started around that time.
My guess it that the word "slavery" usually implies chattel slavery, whereas these people were serving sentences of penal servitude.
Others have pointed this out, but penal servitude is alive and well in the US prison system as well [1] and it's not common to use the word slavery for that. Maybe they should, but it is arguably a different concept from chattel slavery.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_State...
Others have pointed this out, but penal servitude is alive and well in the US prison system as well [1] and it's not common to use the word slavery for that. Maybe they should, but it is arguably a different concept from chattel slavery.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_State...
Hooray prison-industrial complex :(
Because they were prisoners?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_State...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_State...
And what, apart from legal approval, is morally or materially different about forcing a prisoner to work and forcing a free citizen to work?
I find it pretty disturbing that you can't tell the difference. That's a rather serious moral failing on your part.
Sweet! Value judgments on the internet!
What, apart from legal approval is morally or materially different from performing capital punishment on convicted murderers and performing capital punishment on a free citizen?
The point is there is a spectrum/grey line.
The point is there is a spectrum/grey line.
Prisoners have been one of the most common types of slaves in history. And one of the few explicitly tolerated as such in places that like to claim they've abolished slavery. [0]
[0] See, e.g., US Constitution, Amendment XIII
[0] See, e.g., US Constitution, Amendment XIII
I understand your sentiment completely – they were slaves and that crime should be recognised. The reason the headline has the word in quotes is that it's quoting their own statement about themselves: quote quotes, not scare quotes.
[deleted]
The article seems to refer to them as "prisoners" more often than "slaves", so this may be why (and the article is more sensational using "slaves" in the title vs. "prisoners").
I understand that it can be subjective and will assume the writers audience might find the context sensitive. In this case it seems to fit well in my opinion.
I think that's because it's literally quoting the letter-writers' description of themselves.
I wonder if in years to come, there will be similar stories when messages from enslaved foreign tech workers are found buried in leaked source code.
probably not.
Is this a good time to talk about the US prison labour system we have now? Where many are forced to work. I guess if you give them pennies on the dollar, they are not slaves right?
EDIT: Judging from the down votes, I guess it is not a good time. Maybe tomorrow?
EDIT: Judging from the down votes, I guess it is not a good time. Maybe tomorrow?
The 13th amendment to the US Constitution, which generally abolished slavery, specifically allows for slavery or involuntary servitude in the case of conviction. It is very explicit in saying so.[0]
"Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." [emphasis mine]
So yes, involuntary servitude in prison systems is specifically allowed under the US Constitution, and you could even refer to US prisoners as slaves, and that would still be allowed.
Please note this is not a judgement on whether it should be this way or not, just that the US constitution specifically allows this occur.
[0] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Uni...
"Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." [emphasis mine]
So yes, involuntary servitude in prison systems is specifically allowed under the US Constitution, and you could even refer to US prisoners as slaves, and that would still be allowed.
Please note this is not a judgement on whether it should be this way or not, just that the US constitution specifically allows this occur.
[0] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Uni...
I think that the difference between the mindset of the American penal system (from a British point of view) seems to be that in America you are in prison FOR punishment. There seems to be an expectation that in prison you should endure additional hardship in the form of work and potentially rape (the USA is the only country in the world with a higher level of _reported_ male rape than female rape, due to the large number of prisoners and the abuse that occurs in there).
In the UK and Europe we see prison as THE punishment. Being deprived of your liberty and freedom is generally considered punishment enough. Some of the most successful prisons (in terms of re-offender rates) are in Denmark, where prisons are pretty damn comfortable and prisoners have many rights and access to support (and even the ability to leave the prison for periods of the day if they are trusted and to mix with prisoners of the opposite sex and civilians who choose to live in boarding available in prisons.
In the UK and Europe we see prison as THE punishment. Being deprived of your liberty and freedom is generally considered punishment enough. Some of the most successful prisons (in terms of re-offender rates) are in Denmark, where prisons are pretty damn comfortable and prisoners have many rights and access to support (and even the ability to leave the prison for periods of the day if they are trusted and to mix with prisoners of the opposite sex and civilians who choose to live in boarding available in prisons.
It really seems like the distinction you're trying to draw between the UK and US prison systems is essentially based on an implied allegation that prison rape is condoned in the US. That's an egregiously inflammatory argument to make, one that essentially kneecaps the rest of the discussion. It's also false, and papers over the fact that rape is endemic in the UK penal system as well.
It's too bad, because your second graf raises some interesting questions.
In any case: this has nothing to do with the story we're commenting on.
It's too bad, because your second graf raises some interesting questions.
In any case: this has nothing to do with the story we're commenting on.
Rape is not endemic in the UK prison system, certainly not to the same degree as in the US.
Source: My wife's uncle that was a prison warder in Belmarsh, and people I have know who have been to prison.
Source: My wife's uncle that was a prison warder in Belmarsh, and people I have know who have been to prison.
The disciplinary reaction to refusing prison work is also not comparable to the Soviet penal system. In the US prisons that have forced labor, refusal to work will cost privileges and good-behavior time. In the Soviet system, refusal to work would cost your life.
I never stated anything about the Soviet penal system (nor did I imply it).
I specifically mentioned the US system in my post, and my post was in response to the parent comment of "Where many are forced to work. I guess if you give them pennies on the dollar, they are not slaves right?" which was specifically in regards to the US penal system.
I specifically mentioned the US system in my post, and my post was in response to the parent comment of "Where many are forced to work. I guess if you give them pennies on the dollar, they are not slaves right?" which was specifically in regards to the US penal system.
About the best thing you can say for the discussion you just tried to start is that it's evidence for why stories like this aren't a good fit for HN.
I stated a little known, and kind of unbelievable, fact about the intersection of the US Prison system, the US Constitution, and slavery as an institution, and did so specifically without any kind of value judgement of what that means. The only discussion that I was hoping for was "Oh wow, I did not know that. That's insane", and maybe some discussion of the differences between technology and law.
I disagree, except for the "that's insane" part, which I think I agree with for different reasons.
I think what you've done is (a) play a semantic game with the word "slavery" and (b) took the 13th Amendment wildly out of context. There are 13th Amendment restrictions on the circumstances in which a prisoner can be forced to work. Further, when prisoners refuse to work, they lose privileges; they are not sentenced for additional crimes.
There is no useful comparison to be made either to the Soviet penal labor system or to US slavery. The use of the word "slavery" in this context detracts from understanding, and serves to derail the thread.
I think what you've done is (a) play a semantic game with the word "slavery" and (b) took the 13th Amendment wildly out of context. There are 13th Amendment restrictions on the circumstances in which a prisoner can be forced to work. Further, when prisoners refuse to work, they lose privileges; they are not sentenced for additional crimes.
There is no useful comparison to be made either to the Soviet penal labor system or to US slavery. The use of the word "slavery" in this context detracts from understanding, and serves to derail the thread.
I guess I'll play ball.
I quoted the exact text of the 13th amendment. I did not quote the full text, but the other part of the text is exactly this:
"Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."
I played no word games with "slavery", either in the use of the word, or it's context. I quoted directly from the US Constitution. There is no semantic game to play with the word slavery. The people who wrote the amendment, and those who ratified it, clearly understood what the word meant to them, and codified that it was OK to continue the practice, restricted to those "duly convicted". That they agreed that slavery should be abolished, but not for everyone, is interesting. If for no other reason that it can be used to peer in to the legislative process and see the compromises that were made, and the changes that the US has made since then.
Indeed, other than saying it was technically allowed by the US Constitution, I provided no other context. I didn't feel any was need as I was stating a fact, not an opinion. Just as I don't need to provide context to say that the JavaScript language has a keyword named var.
I think most US citizens do know that the 13th amendment abolished slavery, but not that it also codified slavery as well for a certain class of people. This is interesting, and unexpected.
Additionally, I find your comments such as "There is no useful comparison to be made either to the Soviet penal labor system or to US slavery." odd in the context of this subthread. I have not made any such comparisons, and you have repeatedly stated something like this in this subthread to me. Congress ratified a constitutional amendment barring slavery except for those convicted of crimes. Suggesting that this is not in some way related to US slavery seems odd. What other kind of slavery could the amendment writers have been speaking of if not US slavery?
I quoted the exact text of the 13th amendment. I did not quote the full text, but the other part of the text is exactly this:
"Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."
I played no word games with "slavery", either in the use of the word, or it's context. I quoted directly from the US Constitution. There is no semantic game to play with the word slavery. The people who wrote the amendment, and those who ratified it, clearly understood what the word meant to them, and codified that it was OK to continue the practice, restricted to those "duly convicted". That they agreed that slavery should be abolished, but not for everyone, is interesting. If for no other reason that it can be used to peer in to the legislative process and see the compromises that were made, and the changes that the US has made since then.
Indeed, other than saying it was technically allowed by the US Constitution, I provided no other context. I didn't feel any was need as I was stating a fact, not an opinion. Just as I don't need to provide context to say that the JavaScript language has a keyword named var.
I think most US citizens do know that the 13th amendment abolished slavery, but not that it also codified slavery as well for a certain class of people. This is interesting, and unexpected.
Additionally, I find your comments such as "There is no useful comparison to be made either to the Soviet penal labor system or to US slavery." odd in the context of this subthread. I have not made any such comparisons, and you have repeatedly stated something like this in this subthread to me. Congress ratified a constitutional amendment barring slavery except for those convicted of crimes. Suggesting that this is not in some way related to US slavery seems odd. What other kind of slavery could the amendment writers have been speaking of if not US slavery?
Extremely disingenuous. The 13th Amendment doesn't "codify slavery for a certain class of people". It allows courts to impose sentences that include work requirements, the same way they can today throughout much of Europe --- and thus, presumably, most of the whole world†. It clarifies the abolition of slavery, whose intent wasn't to abolish criminal sentences.
A slave in a Soviet penal colony who refused to work would be shot or starved.
A slave in a US plantation who refused to work would be whipped to death.
A prison inmate who refuses to help do laundry will have their privileges curtailed and lose time off for good behavior.
The idea that you'd compare these groups of people, or think you can productively assign the three of them the same label, is very telling.
This is a story about Soviet hegemony over eastern Europe. The Soviet empire was literally industrialized on the backs of slaves, in the truest sense of the word. That is not something that can reasonably be said about Europe or the US. The comparison between Soviet labor camps and US prisons is unhelpful.
For instance, today, in China, you can be sentenced to force labor by a magistrate without trial; it is the moral equivalent of being sentenced to a year of labor at a traffic stop. There is an appeals process; it takes longer than the statutory maximum "reeducation through labor" sentence.
A slave in a Soviet penal colony who refused to work would be shot or starved.
A slave in a US plantation who refused to work would be whipped to death.
A prison inmate who refuses to help do laundry will have their privileges curtailed and lose time off for good behavior.
The idea that you'd compare these groups of people, or think you can productively assign the three of them the same label, is very telling.
This is a story about Soviet hegemony over eastern Europe. The Soviet empire was literally industrialized on the backs of slaves, in the truest sense of the word. That is not something that can reasonably be said about Europe or the US. The comparison between Soviet labor camps and US prisons is unhelpful.
For instance, today, in China, you can be sentenced to force labor by a magistrate without trial; it is the moral equivalent of being sentenced to a year of labor at a traffic stop. There is an appeals process; it takes longer than the statutory maximum "reeducation through labor" sentence.
The Soviet empire was literally industrialized on the backs of slaves, in the truest sense of the word.
As a pedantipoint, this isn't really the case.
The Soviet coerced labor system was expansive and multifaceted and it's fair to say that much of the industrial and practically all agricultural work in the period was coerced. Penal forced labor (what you'd perfectly reasonably call slave labor) was a fraction of that. It was used for certain industrial and transportation projects and played a major role in raw materials extraction but, beside being murderous, it was also even more inefficient and corrupt than the rest of the Soviet economy.
The Soviet Union could not have industrialized on the backs of its slave laborers alone, even if it had wanted to.
Wikipedia's section seems to have references to fairly recent studies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#Economic_role_of_the_Gula...
As a pedantipoint, this isn't really the case.
The Soviet coerced labor system was expansive and multifaceted and it's fair to say that much of the industrial and practically all agricultural work in the period was coerced. Penal forced labor (what you'd perfectly reasonably call slave labor) was a fraction of that. It was used for certain industrial and transportation projects and played a major role in raw materials extraction but, beside being murderous, it was also even more inefficient and corrupt than the rest of the Soviet economy.
The Soviet Union could not have industrialized on the backs of its slave laborers alone, even if it had wanted to.
Wikipedia's section seems to have references to fairly recent studies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#Economic_role_of_the_Gula...
* The 13th Amendment doesn't "codify slavery for a certain class of people".*
Bullshit. It certainly did. That later laws, and the 8th amendment, were used (rightfully) to remove the threat of slavery, does not negate that at the time the 13th amendment was ratified it did allow for actual slavery as a punishment.
Specifically:
On December 18, 1865, Secretary of State William H. Seward proclaimed its adoption. [0]
During the second session to the Thirty-ninth Congress (December 12, 1866 - January 8, 1867), debates centered on the meaning of the exemption in the antislavery amendment, since punishment for crime found fit locale no only within the walls of prisons and jails but also on the auction block. In the very sentence abolishing slavery, provision had been made for its revival under another form and through the action of the courts of the United States. Those declared free by this clause of the Constitution found themselves returned to slavery. Senator Charles Sumner presented to Congress a notice posted by William Bryan, the sheriff of Anne Arundel County in Maryland: "Public Sale. -- The undersigned will sell at the court-house door, in the city Annapolis, at twelve o'clock m., on Saturday, 8th December, 1866, a negro man named Richard Harris, for six months, convicted at the October term, 1866, of the Ann Arundel county circuit court for larcenty, and sentenced by the court to be sold as a slave. Terms of sale, cash". During this same session of Congress, other cases were presented to demonstrate that these sales were nothing less than lingering relics of the Black Code. [1]
Please note that fully a year after the 18th amendment was passed, that slavery was still in use as a punishment for a convicted crime, and even after the amendment was passed, there was concern that the antislavery amendment wasn't actually doing it's job completely.
I will again note that I never made any comparisons to the any soviet system, and that all I did was note a historical oddity. As for it being "telling" that I assigned them the same label. I did not. The original poster did, I did not. We're not the same people, and whatever you see in me bringing this up, unless it's about a history lesson, then you're wrong. period.
The comparison between Soviet labor camps and US prisons is unhelpful.. I agree with you 100%, and I never made such comparison.
[0] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Uni...
[1] - Slavery in the Caribbean Francophone World: Distant Voices, Forgotten Acts, Forged Identities, ISBN 978-0820321660, pg 195
Bullshit. It certainly did. That later laws, and the 8th amendment, were used (rightfully) to remove the threat of slavery, does not negate that at the time the 13th amendment was ratified it did allow for actual slavery as a punishment.
Specifically:
On December 18, 1865, Secretary of State William H. Seward proclaimed its adoption. [0]
During the second session to the Thirty-ninth Congress (December 12, 1866 - January 8, 1867), debates centered on the meaning of the exemption in the antislavery amendment, since punishment for crime found fit locale no only within the walls of prisons and jails but also on the auction block. In the very sentence abolishing slavery, provision had been made for its revival under another form and through the action of the courts of the United States. Those declared free by this clause of the Constitution found themselves returned to slavery. Senator Charles Sumner presented to Congress a notice posted by William Bryan, the sheriff of Anne Arundel County in Maryland: "Public Sale. -- The undersigned will sell at the court-house door, in the city Annapolis, at twelve o'clock m., on Saturday, 8th December, 1866, a negro man named Richard Harris, for six months, convicted at the October term, 1866, of the Ann Arundel county circuit court for larcenty, and sentenced by the court to be sold as a slave. Terms of sale, cash". During this same session of Congress, other cases were presented to demonstrate that these sales were nothing less than lingering relics of the Black Code. [1]
Please note that fully a year after the 18th amendment was passed, that slavery was still in use as a punishment for a convicted crime, and even after the amendment was passed, there was concern that the antislavery amendment wasn't actually doing it's job completely.
I will again note that I never made any comparisons to the any soviet system, and that all I did was note a historical oddity. As for it being "telling" that I assigned them the same label. I did not. The original poster did, I did not. We're not the same people, and whatever you see in me bringing this up, unless it's about a history lesson, then you're wrong. period.
The comparison between Soviet labor camps and US prisons is unhelpful.. I agree with you 100%, and I never made such comparison.
[0] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Uni...
[1] - Slavery in the Caribbean Francophone World: Distant Voices, Forgotten Acts, Forged Identities, ISBN 978-0820321660, pg 195
Thank you sir! :-)
In my opinion, you're directionally right about the United States' penal system. Maybe prisoners in the United States can refuse work, and refusing work won't get them shot, but yes - the United States' penal system is most certainly a god-awful mess, and I say this from the depths of my conservative right-wing heart.
That being said, there's a certain type of dishonest argument called a tu quoque - pointing at hypocrisy. It's often used to derail criticism of some terrible thing by saying 'oh, hey, you do it too', diverting the discussion to a debate about that.
With regards to the Soviet Union, the tu quoque has a special history, because they used it incredibly consistently throughout their history. The phrase 'А у вас негров линчуют' - roughly, 'but in your country, they lynch black people' - was used so often by Soviet politicians it became the punchline to popular jokes about food shortages and human rights violations.
That's probably why you were being downvoted - because, completely aside from the rightness or wrongness of your statement, comparison of the happily-gone Soviet Union to the current United States was seen as an attempt to move the conversation away from the awfulness of the Soviet Union's forced labor programs and these slaves' desire to communicate with future generations.
That being said, there's a certain type of dishonest argument called a tu quoque - pointing at hypocrisy. It's often used to derail criticism of some terrible thing by saying 'oh, hey, you do it too', diverting the discussion to a debate about that.
With regards to the Soviet Union, the tu quoque has a special history, because they used it incredibly consistently throughout their history. The phrase 'А у вас негров линчуют' - roughly, 'but in your country, they lynch black people' - was used so often by Soviet politicians it became the punchline to popular jokes about food shortages and human rights violations.
That's probably why you were being downvoted - because, completely aside from the rightness or wrongness of your statement, comparison of the happily-gone Soviet Union to the current United States was seen as an attempt to move the conversation away from the awfulness of the Soviet Union's forced labor programs and these slaves' desire to communicate with future generations.
No, this is not a good time to talk about the US prison labor system. If you have an interesting link about that topic, submit it and maybe it'll get upvoted. But don't just find a topic that's vaguely similar and hijack it.
I think it's valid to take a discovery of human slavery in the past and compare it to slavery in the present. Be it mines using forced labor, sexual slavery, forced prison work, etc.
Hijacking? It's seems a natural on-topic comment to me.
Hijacking? It's seems a natural on-topic comment to me.
The letter in the article says, "Hello, future generation! And may your era have no slavery and no humiliation of man by man."
We are the future generation, and there is in fact prison slave labour now. It's directly on topic.
We are the future generation, and there is in fact prison slave labour now. It's directly on topic.
Good idea! Here you go https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9653515
It is the closest he can get to saying America does this too, without looking like a total jackass.
US prison labor isn't usefully comparable to Soviet slave labor.
It was also not helpful of you to post a story from 2010 about a Georgia prison strike in response to this article (and I'm a little surprised it got upvoted so much before being flagged off the front page):
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9653515
It was also not helpful of you to post a story from 2010 about a Georgia prison strike in response to this article (and I'm a little surprised it got upvoted so much before being flagged off the front page):
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9653515
The responses here show a depressing ignorance of the Soviet era, which was a time of massive industrialization using a system of forced labour. Western apologists for Stalinism continued to tout the "success" of this project right up to the fall of the Soviet Union.
It is good we are still able to hear the voices of the dead from the Gulag, not just to be reminded of who they were and how they died as a result of deliberate Soviet policy, but to be reminded of how badly misunderstood and misremembered the horrors of that policy are.
If the US prison system deliberately killed millions of people over decades by systematic intent to create industrial infrastructure in a nation previously dominated by peasant farming it would be comparable. Otherwise, not so much.
That the Soviet system deliberately killed millions of people over decades is not in dispute. The purpose of the Gulag is well-documented. But there are as always Denialists who will believe what they want and claim anything they think is remotely plausible to justify it.
http://www.amazon.com/Gulag-Archipelago-Abridged-Experiment-...
It is good we are still able to hear the voices of the dead from the Gulag, not just to be reminded of who they were and how they died as a result of deliberate Soviet policy, but to be reminded of how badly misunderstood and misremembered the horrors of that policy are.
If the US prison system deliberately killed millions of people over decades by systematic intent to create industrial infrastructure in a nation previously dominated by peasant farming it would be comparable. Otherwise, not so much.
That the Soviet system deliberately killed millions of people over decades is not in dispute. The purpose of the Gulag is well-documented. But there are as always Denialists who will believe what they want and claim anything they think is remotely plausible to justify it.
http://www.amazon.com/Gulag-Archipelago-Abridged-Experiment-...
The labor performed by prisoners of the US prison system isn't comparable, you're right. But given that the US imprisons at a vastly higher rate than the rest of the world, and:
Over all, there are now more people under “correctional supervision” in America—more than six million—than were in the Gulag Archipelago under Stalin at its height. [1]
That, I think, is a useful comparison, and one that we should be making and asking questions about.
[1] http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/01/30/the-caging-of-a...
Over all, there are now more people under “correctional supervision” in America—more than six million—than were in the Gulag Archipelago under Stalin at its height. [1]
That, I think, is a useful comparison, and one that we should be making and asking questions about.
[1] http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/01/30/the-caging-of-a...
We can play "Six Degrees Of Kevin Bacon" with this and connect injustices in the US to virtually any story through virtually any starting point. For instance, you could just as convincingly have argued:
"But given that economic inequality in the US is so high, and given the demographics of the kinds of people sent to prisons, we should be asking questions about the parallels between Soviet slave labor and US prisons."
"But given that economic inequality in the US is so high, and given the demographics of the kinds of people sent to prisons, we should be asking questions about the parallels between Soviet slave labor and US prisons."
So you argue (at the risk of putting words in your mouth: "you can't compare USA and USSR prison camp systems because the work conditions are hugely different".
Then I respond: "but the systems are similar in the way they both grabbed unprecedented levels of citizens, and possibly the justice of their convictions".
Why are the dots you've decided to connect the right ones, while the dots that I think are important are just playing a game?
Then I respond: "but the systems are similar in the way they both grabbed unprecedented levels of citizens, and possibly the justice of their convictions".
Why are the dots you've decided to connect the right ones, while the dots that I think are important are just playing a game?
The overwhelming majority of US prisoners do not do work for the direct benefit of the population at large.
Although the Gulag system was intended to be an engine of productivity in the USSR, that goal was never achieved. Throughout its history, the work camps were never profitable, they never carried their own weight. So it's hard to say that in the USSR, the work camps were benefiting the population at large.
When the warts of Russian history are being discussed, you'd be surprised what aspects of American culture (present or past) are suddenly considered comparable.
This was a routine dodge in Soviet times. If you brought up human rights violations or the gulag to a Soviet diplomat, you'd get an earful about racial discrimination and poverty in the United States.
These aren't the "warts of Russian history". Slave labor and terror were the flesh and bones of Russian history for over half a century. If you can dismiss that history with "there is injustice everywhere" handwaving, then you can accept pretty much anything.
These aren't the "warts of Russian history". Slave labor and terror were the flesh and bones of Russian history for over half a century. If you can dismiss that history with "there is injustice everywhere" handwaving, then you can accept pretty much anything.
The difference is - in USA it's uncommon for the prisoner to die of cold and starvation.
True, they are much more likely to die in a fight instigated by, and for the entertainment of, their jailers than by cold or starvation.
More than from cold or starvation in american prison? Yes.
More than from a fight in a gulag? Hell no.
More than from a fight in a gulag? Hell no.
I'm personally not a great fan on prison as a punishment. Forcing them to work as a punishment (obviously for much much less time than an equivalent prison sentence) sounds MUCH better to me.
Prison takes away time which is the only thing a person can never get back, it should be reserved for people who are a danger to others.
Punishment should be actual punishment, corporal, work, that kind of thing. Something that a person will not like, but after they are done, they will hopefully be able to rejoin society with memories of what happens if they offend again.
Prison takes away time which is the only thing a person can never get back, it should be reserved for people who are a danger to others.
Punishment should be actual punishment, corporal, work, that kind of thing. Something that a person will not like, but after they are done, they will hopefully be able to rejoin society with memories of what happens if they offend again.
but it isn't true. Only a very small percentage of the prison population works at any task, one of the primary reasons for such a low percentage; like under ten percent; is security. The majority reason is that prisons switched from rehabilitation to punishment and punishment usually means having nothing to do. First off its easier to implement and second its actually cheaper.
What worse is that when getting out the states themselves if not the federal government put many onerous barriers that prevent if not downright discourage employing former prisoners and those on probation. There are many jobs which require certification by government through regulation that explicit exclude felons.
The true issue is we have a system which does little to prevent repeat offenders because the government's own regulations put up too many barriers to employment after prison.
What worse is that when getting out the states themselves if not the federal government put many onerous barriers that prevent if not downright discourage employing former prisoners and those on probation. There are many jobs which require certification by government through regulation that explicit exclude felons.
The true issue is we have a system which does little to prevent repeat offenders because the government's own regulations put up too many barriers to employment after prison.
Careful, Russia has slaves. The US has prisoners (most likely to be descendants of actual, real slaves from a few generations back)
Russia is coming back at the main bogey man, don't you read the news?
;-)
Russia is coming back at the main bogey man, don't you read the news?
;-)
Clearly it creates a potential conflict of interest. Prisoners should get paid at least minimum wage. The money could be put into a savings account for them for when they are released. This coupled with financial management lessons could have an positive impact on the high rates of recidivism the system experiences.
Yes, every story should be made to be about the US. It's really the only place that matters.
Oh and FYI, slavery for punishment is legal in the US.
Oh and FYI, slavery for punishment is legal in the US.
Actually this is one of the most appropriate stories to mention the US. US has the most prisoners in the world and the Russian prison slaves wished a world where there would be no slavery. That world is not here yet.
Judging by the responses in this thread, your comment was deemed off-topic. I think part of the reaction is that your tone sounded like you were pushing an agenda. Then when people said they thought it was off topic, you doubled down on the insist tone. Both of those things are a turn-off: people don't want to see reddit-like behavior (taking a topic about a historical discovery of slavery conditions in Russia and turning it into a US-centric political hot-button issue).
I thought your initial comment was a little off-topic, personally. But the defensive / insistent tone in this reply makes me think that you actually were pushing an agenda, and that the criticisms were valid. (Essentially, to me, you proved their point: you weren't interested in discussing the focus of the article, but wanted to hijack the thread to talk about an issue important to you.)
I thought your initial comment was a little off-topic, personally. But the defensive / insistent tone in this reply makes me think that you actually were pushing an agenda, and that the criticisms were valid. (Essentially, to me, you proved their point: you weren't interested in discussing the focus of the article, but wanted to hijack the thread to talk about an issue important to you.)
Well, not chattel slavery, which is what Americans usually mean by the term.
The prison can't sell prisoners like you could sell a car or something.
The prison can't sell prisoners like you could sell a car or something.
Feels good to have heard their words. Too bad we can't respond.