Uber poached people from Carnegie Mellon robotics lab to build self-driving cars(theverge.com)
theverge.com
Uber poached people from Carnegie Mellon robotics lab to build self-driving cars
http://www.theverge.com/transportation/2015/5/19/8622831/uber-self-driving-cars-carnegie-mellon-poached
7 comments
Seems like a win-win for all involved. Uber can devote many more times the investment than the Feds are making. CMU and its people get to focus on the technologies, not writing grants. And CMU likely gets royalties for previous inventions. Plus the city of Pittsburgh will be showcased with 21st century tech. And DARPA helped launch the whole industry. Pretty amazing history when it's widespread. Might be a 15 year trend from first Grand Challenge to widespread acceptance.
From a reliable source (my wife's coworker has a friend who was one of the defectors), apparently Uber offered folks a signing bonus equal to triple their yearly salary to leave NREC.
Damn, should have went into robotics.
Damn, should have went into robotics.
Wow, it must suck to be an Uber driver around now. The only people that like you are the customers.
You're a liability to the company who is now openly plotting your exit, a target for the old boy taxi network, and a target for government.
You're a liability to the company who is now openly plotting your exit, a target for the old boy taxi network, and a target for government.
They shouldn't worry about self driving cars. The cost and complexity of developing a fleet of them is very high. In too of that, the technology is not quite there. Their biggest risk ae regulation and gun point robberies.
What's a robber going to take from an Uber driver at gunpoint? Obviously not the cash he's earned from the rides, so... his personal wallet and the Uber smartphone? Most drivers have a wallet and a phone; why are Uber drivers a substantially better target than any other driver out there?
An average driver does not stop to pick up passengers ever n amount of time. A Taxi/Uber driver does. Speak to some taxi drivers and ask them how many times they've been robbed. Its pretty common. Not necessarily at gun point either. They get a lot of knives pulled on them.
An Uber driver doesn't have the cash from fares, wheras a taxi driver does, though.
They do have valuables. Their own cash, maybe tips, the cellphone, etc. Robbers go for the easy targets.
The drivers dont have more than any average driver... in fact they usually are just average everyday drivers. The pickup and payment is done entirely through the mobile app and now includes pictures of both drivers and riders.
I really would say it's far safer than a taxi. Someone planning on robbing someone probably wouldn't use a GPS capable device to first have the potential crime scene come to them with continuous tracking the whole time, only to steal what they could get from basically anyone on the street.
I really would say it's far safer than a taxi. Someone planning on robbing someone probably wouldn't use a GPS capable device to first have the potential crime scene come to them with continuous tracking the whole time, only to steal what they could get from basically anyone on the street.
they don't get tips in cash. They seem marginally more likely to be robbed than other drivers.
I bet Uber can make autonomous taxis happen. They operate in urban areas. Uber can create the very detailed maps of these areas that autonomous vehicles need.
Right now, we have two conditions where autonomous systems work well: on the highway, where you can use products like Delphi's sensor package to do adaptive cruise control and lane assist, and in more urban environments with very detailed maps (see the Google autonomous cars).
I actually think there's a good chance Uber can create very detailed maps of places like Manhattan and San Francisco, and make autonomous vehicles that can use these maps to drive around.
Uber is under such a microscope when it comes to drivers that it makes a lot of sense for them to sink the R&D into this problem. All the cost going into paying people, paying to find people, and paying to clean up when people make a mistake, goes away.
Right now, we have two conditions where autonomous systems work well: on the highway, where you can use products like Delphi's sensor package to do adaptive cruise control and lane assist, and in more urban environments with very detailed maps (see the Google autonomous cars).
I actually think there's a good chance Uber can create very detailed maps of places like Manhattan and San Francisco, and make autonomous vehicles that can use these maps to drive around.
Uber is under such a microscope when it comes to drivers that it makes a lot of sense for them to sink the R&D into this problem. All the cost going into paying people, paying to find people, and paying to clean up when people make a mistake, goes away.
Map data is not the main issue. I'm talking from experience here. Its the sensors and software. Good sensors are über expensive (mind the pun), not easily integrated in vehicle control systems, and currently not awfully precise (for the kind of duty daily automated driving requires). The software just needs more time to cook.
One thing people forget is that building cars is hard and expensive. Autonomous vehicles is not only about mounting some sensors and computers. Its about interacting with a slew of systems that were not designed for autonomy. A fully autonomous car that can drive people around like a Taxi requires a complete engineering overhaul from the wheels and up.
One thing people forget is that building cars is hard and expensive. Autonomous vehicles is not only about mounting some sensors and computers. Its about interacting with a slew of systems that were not designed for autonomy. A fully autonomous car that can drive people around like a Taxi requires a complete engineering overhaul from the wheels and up.
Why do you need uber when cars drive themselves?
So you don't have to own the car or worry about what to do with it when you aren't using it. Car sharing is the perfect use for self driving cars, because it increases utility. Idle private cars need expensive parking spaces, and are useless while sitting still.
It's nice to see this event get more attention, although this story did not add much to what has already been reported. I'm not sure how secure and plentiful the old NREC's funding was. My impression is that they were chasing a lot of small pots of money. Maybe that's part of the reason why CMU has not been bothered.
Clearly this move by Uber rewrote the book. They took the director of the center, Tony Stentz, and a lot of others besides.
That's not the only case of significant recruiting decimating robotics staff members recently, either. There have been a lot of departures from my own lab.
Clearly this move by Uber rewrote the book. They took the director of the center, Tony Stentz, and a lot of others besides.
That's not the only case of significant recruiting decimating robotics staff members recently, either. There have been a lot of departures from my own lab.
Yeah, the NREC's 2013 budget was only ~$30M...
At your office, have you experienced any "lingering resentment" -- similar to that in the article?
At your office, have you experienced any "lingering resentment" -- similar to that in the article?
I have not experienced the resentment, but most of my friends were among those who left. I'm not in robotics, I do classification, but I worked with them. A new crop of graduates has taken their place.
The suddenness was rather amazing. Salary bumps were given but it was not enough.
The suddenness was rather amazing. Salary bumps were given but it was not enough.
This is nothing new. High-end investment firms absorb many top computer science grads every year, sometimes even pulling them away from their PHDs, but it doesn't seem to raise many headlines.
And companies like Google and Facebook hired all the top AI researchers away from universities. Good for the people hired, I say.
Uber's sleazy ways continue.... This company appears to be totally amoral and without remorse. The leaders of this company are winning, by stepping on the heads of everyone else. At least, that is what the headlines of the last year describe. Is this an inaccurate portrayal? I have to say, I am not tempted to patronize Uber because of this.
What's sleazy about hiring people away from a university research job? Why does it merit the "poaching" appellation?
If making competitive bids for labor is "sleazy poaching", god help us all.
Is the problem that they hired "too many" people? Is there some maximum rate at which you're supposed to hire employees at another organization before you're the bad guy?
People here rant about the anti-competitive no-poach conspiracies, and we're supposed to compartmentalize that away while we get outraged at the exact opposite?
Sorry if I'm missing the point here; I just don't get it.
If making competitive bids for labor is "sleazy poaching", god help us all.
Is the problem that they hired "too many" people? Is there some maximum rate at which you're supposed to hire employees at another organization before you're the bad guy?
People here rant about the anti-competitive no-poach conspiracies, and we're supposed to compartmentalize that away while we get outraged at the exact opposite?
Sorry if I'm missing the point here; I just don't get it.
I'm not in favor of the line which the grandparent is arguing but perhaps there's an argument to be made that Uber is, in effect, "eating the seed corn" of the industry and valuing private gains over public losses.
Universities like CMU are responsible for recruiting and training the next generation of great roboticists and there's a difference between responsibly harvesting researchers from an institution in a way that allows the lab to maintain its culture and bounce back vs plundering it in such a way that would take many years to recover from.
It's a prisoner's dilemma style situation where all companies involved in robotics would benefit from a thriving academic robotics community, even if it would be more competitive if those researchers were in house. Uber was the first one to publically defect which might cause further defections to the detriment of everyone.
Universities like CMU are responsible for recruiting and training the next generation of great roboticists and there's a difference between responsibly harvesting researchers from an institution in a way that allows the lab to maintain its culture and bounce back vs plundering it in such a way that would take many years to recover from.
It's a prisoner's dilemma style situation where all companies involved in robotics would benefit from a thriving academic robotics community, even if it would be more competitive if those researchers were in house. Uber was the first one to publically defect which might cause further defections to the detriment of everyone.
Would you stay at CMU while your colleagues are being hired into industry at a multiple of your salary? Yet the argument is, they should stay for some reason. In the end, its up to the researchers to choose their own path.
All the companies in robotics making hiring agreements would actually be illegal. Collusion in fixing salaries/blacklisting whole categories of employee candidates is a much worse evil. Maybe we can stop trying to social engineer, and address the situation as it exists.
All the companies in robotics making hiring agreements would actually be illegal. Collusion in fixing salaries/blacklisting whole categories of employee candidates is a much worse evil. Maybe we can stop trying to social engineer, and address the situation as it exists.
But Uber could hire 3 or 4 professors a year, offer internships and fellowships for PhD and Masters students, provide funding grants to professors still working at CMU and slowly work it's way up to a 100 person research lab over the course of 5 years. Or Uber could immediately hire 30 people straight away and destroy the lab and then find itself unable to hire anyone else and stuck at around that number 5 years later.
It's better for both CMU and Uber if they perform the former. It just requires Uber to take a longer term view of things rather than optimizing for immediate gain.
I'm not arguing that this is the reality on the ground. But I see this as a potential line of argument worth considering.
It's better for both CMU and Uber if they perform the former. It just requires Uber to take a longer term view of things rather than optimizing for immediate gain.
I'm not arguing that this is the reality on the ground. But I see this as a potential line of argument worth considering.
Maybe they'll just move the lab to their own company. They'll have all the researchers after all, with a real budget and real goals.
But no institutional capacity to grow new researchers. Producing PhDs is a highly resource intensive endeavor that requires a ton of institutional support. Universities consider it their mission but private companies have no interest in it, even if it's vital to their long term success.
Would you feel the same way if GlaxoSmithKline went around hiring entire university cancer research departments so they could work for them instead? This is the robotics equivalent.
Yes. That's just fine, if people want to work for GSK then they can. I'm not going to get upset over every decision that someone else makes with their career.
If you really want that change in the world, and you really want to see cancer research progress or robotics, then YOU should get going and do it.
If you really want that change in the world, and you really want to see cancer research progress or robotics, then YOU should get going and do it.
So these engineers shouldn't be allowed to act with their own volition?
Now their technology will most likely hit the market sooner, this benefitting consumers sooner.
Oh engineers can do what ever they want. They are found in places like Facebook, Wall Street and the NSA doing pointless things with talent anyway. The problem isn't really the choices engineers make.
When the smartest people work for the richest people, to make the richest people so rich that hardly any of that wealth can ever get spent in even ridiculous ways, it automatically makes the system more unequal, less stable and secure for everyone involved.
When the smartest people work for the richest people, to make the richest people so rich that hardly any of that wealth can ever get spent in even ridiculous ways, it automatically makes the system more unequal, less stable and secure for everyone involved.
A service which a billion and a half people use, and hundreds of millions every month/day is most definitely not pointless.
More importantly, how do rich people get rich? How does Uber make money? Uber provides a service in over 300 cities which people can choose to use, and evidently a lot of people do use it. Over a million per day. Now, they are voluntarily paying for a service which people are voluntarily driving for. These people see value in the marketplace which Uber has established, likely due to it's cost and time efficiency. So, Uber makes money by saving people time and money, in comparison to the alternatives. If they do not provide a quality service they will not exist.
More importantly, how do rich people get rich? How does Uber make money? Uber provides a service in over 300 cities which people can choose to use, and evidently a lot of people do use it. Over a million per day. Now, they are voluntarily paying for a service which people are voluntarily driving for. These people see value in the marketplace which Uber has established, likely due to it's cost and time efficiency. So, Uber makes money by saving people time and money, in comparison to the alternatives. If they do not provide a quality service they will not exist.
So, Uber makes money by saving people time and money, in comparison to the alternatives.
That doesn't mean what they're doing is necessarily a good thing. A lot of people argue that Uber saves people time and money by circumventing legislation designed to protect passengers and drivers. Uber's entire business lives or dies on whether or not they're a taxi business and whether or not their drivers are employees. If it's the case that they are a taxi company or their drivers are employees then Uber are definitely in the wrong at the moment. I don't have an opinion either way because I'm not qualified to say.
If they do not provide a quality service they will not exist.
Plenty of terrible businesses that provide shockingly poor quality products exist. I could save people time and money on their building needs by starting a construction business that ignored building regulations. There'd be plenty of trade because lots of people put cost before quality but that wouldn't be a good thing.
That doesn't mean what they're doing is necessarily a good thing. A lot of people argue that Uber saves people time and money by circumventing legislation designed to protect passengers and drivers. Uber's entire business lives or dies on whether or not they're a taxi business and whether or not their drivers are employees. If it's the case that they are a taxi company or their drivers are employees then Uber are definitely in the wrong at the moment. I don't have an opinion either way because I'm not qualified to say.
If they do not provide a quality service they will not exist.
Plenty of terrible businesses that provide shockingly poor quality products exist. I could save people time and money on their building needs by starting a construction business that ignored building regulations. There'd be plenty of trade because lots of people put cost before quality but that wouldn't be a good thing.
Legislation is designed to serve the people. It also gets outdated as times change. It's something that's never done and will always be in constant tension with how society and business transform.
Copyright/patent law and same-sex marriage are two quick examples of things that clearly need legal review as the world has changed. We wouldn't just say: "well that's how the law's written so that's how it should be and everything against it is wrong" would we?
Uber's success is an expression of the general public's desire for a different and better system. Taxi's aren't extinct, they're still around and they've even made lots of upgrades to try and win back customers, however it's pretty clear that ride sharing services just provide better quality and value. I personally believe there are some rules that should exist (disabled/wheelchair + underserved areas) but it doesn't need an entire encumbent taxi industry to remain solely through legal mandates. When there's such growing demand for a service, we should start looking at whether the legislation itself needs to change.
BTW: With all the self-driving cars stuff happening, both taxis and ride share drivers might be out of a job anyway, and our current auto laws will definitely have to change when that becomes a real thing.
Copyright/patent law and same-sex marriage are two quick examples of things that clearly need legal review as the world has changed. We wouldn't just say: "well that's how the law's written so that's how it should be and everything against it is wrong" would we?
Uber's success is an expression of the general public's desire for a different and better system. Taxi's aren't extinct, they're still around and they've even made lots of upgrades to try and win back customers, however it's pretty clear that ride sharing services just provide better quality and value. I personally believe there are some rules that should exist (disabled/wheelchair + underserved areas) but it doesn't need an entire encumbent taxi industry to remain solely through legal mandates. When there's such growing demand for a service, we should start looking at whether the legislation itself needs to change.
BTW: With all the self-driving cars stuff happening, both taxis and ride share drivers might be out of a job anyway, and our current auto laws will definitely have to change when that becomes a real thing.
The legislation may have been designed to protect drivers and passengers, but I’m hesitant to believe that that is what it has actually done. It has certainly protected the incumbents. From my personal experience I felt far safer using Uber than I did the taxi alternatives in my city, as well it it being 300% cheaper and arriving in 5 minutes as opposed to the 55 of the taxi alternative. I think people are mature enough to make decisions for themselves, I’d love to see comparable data of Uber vs. taxi in the cities. Any examples of successful products which are terrible? I don’t think that’s a fair analogy, you are assuming that by ignoring the regulations that the house will be worse of, that’s an untrue assumption in my opinion. In this particular case, and in my experience, I’d argue that Uber’s service is the most quality service in all senses of the word, it’s the cheapest, it arrives the quickest and it’s the safest.
I really dont get the point of arguing that other people's choices and what they choose to work on is "pointless". It takes all types of people in every imaginable field to make this world work and we have more than enough to keep everyone busy.
What exactly is the issue with wealth? The business owners are rich yes, but you don't get to that level without providing something of massive value to someone. In this case, Uber is helping millions of people every day. Also you don't die and leave with all your money, it always gets dispersed eventually, even if it's longer than a single generation.
What exactly is the issue with wealth? The business owners are rich yes, but you don't get to that level without providing something of massive value to someone. In this case, Uber is helping millions of people every day. Also you don't die and leave with all your money, it always gets dispersed eventually, even if it's longer than a single generation.
In case you didn't get the memo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_Unite...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_Unite...
This seems widely known information, especially on HN. Not sure how it applies to my comment though?
Yeah, it was a tongue-in-cheek response to "What exactly is the issue with wealth?".
I don't think there's anything wrong with making some money, but the magnitude of the wealth gap is clearly a serious problem (and evidence against the idea that wealth trickles down in some useful way).
I don't think there's anything wrong with making some money, but the magnitude of the wealth gap is clearly a serious problem (and evidence against the idea that wealth trickles down in some useful way).
Who is worse off because Bill Gates has earned tens of billions of dollars? Who is worse of because Steve Jobs had earned billions of dollars?
I'd argue we are all dramatically better of due to Microsoft and Apple.
I'd argue we are all dramatically better of due to Microsoft and Apple.
No doubt they've done great things, but the wealth gap still exists and has potential to cause social/economic/political problems.
Specifically what social, economic and political problems? And very specifically why are these problems bad? What do you think will happen?
Engineers should act however they like. Companies, on the other hand, should be limited to using the open market to fill each post individually. They should be able to approach people (headhunting them) but only to bring people in to an application process that is open and equal to everyone else.
Don't forget that Uber have screwed every robotics researcher who doesn't work at Carnegie Mellon with this. These are probably some of the best paid, best funded, most exciting robotics engineering jobs going, and Uber handed the posts to their preferred group rather than using the free market. That's not fair or reasonable.
Don't forget that Uber have screwed every robotics researcher who doesn't work at Carnegie Mellon with this. These are probably some of the best paid, best funded, most exciting robotics engineering jobs going, and Uber handed the posts to their preferred group rather than using the free market. That's not fair or reasonable.
What? So companies cant hire whoever they want in whatever way they want? They all have to have a set process open to everyone?
I've hired people before on the spot because of who they are and what they know. Is that somehow wrong?
Life isn't fair and sometimes the right team is who they already know. Do you want them to interview every robotics researcher on the planet in a massive interview round instead of getting work done with a pretty great group that's already proven themselves?
I've hired people before on the spot because of who they are and what they know. Is that somehow wrong?
Life isn't fair and sometimes the right team is who they already know. Do you want them to interview every robotics researcher on the planet in a massive interview round instead of getting work done with a pretty great group that's already proven themselves?
Couldn't agree more. I'm surprised people are actually against this.
... Uber handed the posts to their preferred group rather than using the free market.
Why should they? It's their money and they can choose to spend it (within reason) however they choose to. That actually is how a free market should work, with independent actors doing ludicrous things with their money, irrespective of what you or I think.
That's not fair or reasonable.
Not sure those ex-CMU engineers/researchers would agree with that statement.
Why should they? It's their money and they can choose to spend it (within reason) however they choose to. That actually is how a free market should work, with independent actors doing ludicrous things with their money, irrespective of what you or I think.
That's not fair or reasonable.
Not sure those ex-CMU engineers/researchers would agree with that statement.
This is an existing team who has already shown they can work and accomplish things together. Buying the best individual labor on the free market may not create as strong a whole as just hiring a team outright - this seems like a pretty good economic decision, considering risk/reward.
What is a company? A company is a group of people who are providing a product or service. Why should each post be filled individually? What’s wrong with offering a team of people whom have proven themselves capable as a group a position? Why does there need to be an application? This position was open to anyone else on the planet, and Uber chose the talented people at CM. “Uber screwed every robotics researcher who doesn’t work at CM” I’m not sure I follow your logic on that part, mind expanding?. “Uber handed the position to their preferred group rather than using the free market”, the free market is by definition people consensually transacting with each other. Uber’s preferred group is their choice out of all the robotics engineers on the entire planet, and using their best judgement they offered a position to this particular group of people, and they consensually accepted. How is that not a free market? No one was coerced. Please define ‘fair’ and ‘reasonable’ in this context. Forgive my structuring, I'm on mobile ATM.
That would be fantastic. It would pour money into cancer research and open up tons of research spots for incredibly talented researchers now slinging code or hash because they can't get a job in the crowded post-PhD academic arena. It would take some of the burden of the public funding of research and put it in industry's hands.
How is hiring (poaching isn't accurate whatsoever) talented people to aid in advancing technologies which will save millions of lives and billions of dollars 'sleazy'?
'That is what the headlines of the last year describe', it isn't wise to analyse a situation based on press headlines.
You are writing as if the topic of group's research has changed. It has not. Actually those people were working for humanity as whole. Now they are working for Uber.
I agree that this situation hard to avoid, and its hard to blame Uber for being a better employer then public but still, there is nothing to celebrate about the fact that CMU got stripped of its research lab and that the tech will land in this company's sleazy hands.
I agree that this situation hard to avoid, and its hard to blame Uber for being a better employer then public but still, there is nothing to celebrate about the fact that CMU got stripped of its research lab and that the tech will land in this company's sleazy hands.
Uber will not exist if people don't use it. Uber is providing a service in 300+ cities, and over a million people per day choose use it. In my assessment the engineers work has a greater likelihood of existing being part of Uber.
Why are they sleazy?
Well, the public needs to pony up a competitive remuneration + funding package to retain these guys at CMU. At least, that's what would happen in a true free market.
How is it sleazy? there's great deal of free will in everyone's choices. Also, it's likely Uber has more resources to get whatever they wanted to do done faster.
Sleazy? I mean, they don't seem sleazier than any other large company. I would wager that they receive a lot of bad press because they threaten several industries simultaneously.