Developer depression: Isolation is the biggest problem (2012)(thenextweb.com)
thenextweb.com
Developer depression: Isolation is the biggest problem (2012)
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2012/10/20/are-developers-depressed/#!wJyoV
16 comments
The idea that through "powerful therapeutic algorithms" (whatever that is) people can wholly regulate their own emotions is dangerous and false.
We are a social species and need other people to help regulate our emotions. We are not self-sufficient and believing otherwise feeds a dangerous fantasy that will only lead to more suffering.
We are a social species and need other people to help regulate our emotions. We are not self-sufficient and believing otherwise feeds a dangerous fantasy that will only lead to more suffering.
I have always assumed that depression is at least in large part a social illness.
Of my three children, two were born in Indonesia, and one was born in the US. My wife says that the experience was totally different, and that post-partum depression wasn't really an issue as much in Indonesia because she was surrounded by friends and family for over a month after giving birth (this culminates in a large party after 40 days which has a similar social significance to the older tradition of "churching" and the following "gossip" dinner in Europe). Even something which has as clear neurological strata as PPD has a pretty heavy social component too. (Now obviously this isn't to blame those suffering from PPD, but to note that our society to a large extent makes the problem quite a bit worse.)
Similarly I struggled hard with depression for some time after moving to Indonesia in large part due to the isolation it brought me. Eventually I overcame this by overcoming the isolation.
But beyond that I wonder if developers have a couple of additional strikes against them. I find that it is impossible for me to simultaneously think in machine operations and socially connect. Even when I am around other people, if I am thinking about code, that's isolating. Talking about code is not socializing and I am not sure it can be.
Additionally coding is a sedentary activity and exercise is one thing that also is shown to help avoid and treat depression.
I wonder to what extent we should think about structuring our lives as developers around an extended version of the Greek ideal adding a third component:
A healthy body, a healthy mind, and a healthy social life.
On the management side, I also wonder to what extent ensuring that outings involve mild to moderate physical activity may help too. Lasertag, or indoor rock climbing over movies. If there are people who can't, then looking at finding activities they can do too.
Of my three children, two were born in Indonesia, and one was born in the US. My wife says that the experience was totally different, and that post-partum depression wasn't really an issue as much in Indonesia because she was surrounded by friends and family for over a month after giving birth (this culminates in a large party after 40 days which has a similar social significance to the older tradition of "churching" and the following "gossip" dinner in Europe). Even something which has as clear neurological strata as PPD has a pretty heavy social component too. (Now obviously this isn't to blame those suffering from PPD, but to note that our society to a large extent makes the problem quite a bit worse.)
Similarly I struggled hard with depression for some time after moving to Indonesia in large part due to the isolation it brought me. Eventually I overcame this by overcoming the isolation.
But beyond that I wonder if developers have a couple of additional strikes against them. I find that it is impossible for me to simultaneously think in machine operations and socially connect. Even when I am around other people, if I am thinking about code, that's isolating. Talking about code is not socializing and I am not sure it can be.
Additionally coding is a sedentary activity and exercise is one thing that also is shown to help avoid and treat depression.
I wonder to what extent we should think about structuring our lives as developers around an extended version of the Greek ideal adding a third component:
A healthy body, a healthy mind, and a healthy social life.
On the management side, I also wonder to what extent ensuring that outings involve mild to moderate physical activity may help too. Lasertag, or indoor rock climbing over movies. If there are people who can't, then looking at finding activities they can do too.
I'm working on a project to boost awareness & strengthen resources around mental health in the startup community.
Check out the basics at
blueperiod.org
Reach out to [email protected] if you'd like to help out
Check out the basics at
blueperiod.org
Reach out to [email protected] if you'd like to help out
I just want to encourage you to keep working on this project. I've been thinking for a few months about how best to increase mental health awareness with limited resources. I think it's a good idea to promote resources customized for niche communities that might not be targeted by existing mental health nonprofits. I don't really have any specific ideas at this time. But my next step is to get an understanding of everything that is currently available and figure out something from there (whether it be with something that already exists or start something new).
The key thing here is - if you are friends with and working with a developer that you know is depressed, what do you do? Do you give them space? Do you give them articles to help them?
I don't know about depression, but as far as stress is concerned, I think working with and dealing with people causes a lot more stress than solo work. That's for sure. Code doesn't have an ego or preconceived biases.
There was a related discussion a few days ago:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7244614
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7244614
>It amazes me how often ‘how to be happy’ pieces do well on Hacker News. I think delving into the notion that the more time we spend behind our computers, the less fulfilled we might feel in life overall [is a question worth asking].”
I think unhappy people procrastinate more, vote more. The average vote is not given by the average reader, but one more depressed than average.
I think unhappy people procrastinate more, vote more. The average vote is not given by the average reader, but one more depressed than average.
Yep. That's why book selling ranks started to separate in self help and fiction categories. Otherwise there will ever be self help on the top chats.
OT: This page instantly kills my Android browser...
If you are an engineering manager, you can see huge gains in team satisfaction and productivity if you are cognizant of issues like this.
My suggestion is to take the time to understand each member of your team, then create various interactions that can foster teamwork, satisfaction, etc. This can include:
+ Lunches or dinners - Going out to a restaurant together can give your team a reprieve from the stresses of work, while strengthening bonds. This tends to work best with extroverts. Dinners work best for singles and lunches work best for people with families (who may have to go home to a spouse and kids).
+ Movies - If there's a movie that most of your team wants to see, treat them. This may give introverts a more comfortable setting, since not everyone likes team lunches & dinners. I sometimes reserved a dark conference room and played episodes of Futurama (or some other TV show my team wanted to watch) during lunch, which worked just as well.
+ Outings, activities - Not everyone may enjoy a particular activity, like a hike or indoor rock climbing gym. But you can offer various activities to your team as opportunities to get to know one another. Don't make those who cannot or do not want to get involved feel ostracized, however. Make these optional events.
+ Code reviews, paired programming, tech talks, hackathons - These exercises not only strengthen the skills of your team, but improve team bonding as well. And chances are, all of your developers want to improve their own skills, so any chance to do that is a good thing.
+ One-on-ones - Sit down with each team member and have a chat with her/him. This is not easy for every engineering manager, as it requires skills in listening, empathy, conflict resolution, etc. The goal here is to truly listen. If something is bothering your developer, chances are you'll be able to pick it up here, giving you a chance to resolve it before it becomes a major issue. I've had developers tell me they felt like these chats were therapy sessions, though I did my best not to make it feel so clinical (in some cases, these chats were over coffee, ping pong, a walk, etc). The point is, listen.
There are many more that I've forgotten and I'm sure you've done (and please do share!)
I never had a problem with attrition by employing tactics like these. And I don't mean to imply that no one on my team had depression - I am not a licensed therapist and make no claims that I can diagnosis this condition. My point is just that engineering managers who actively cultivate a supportive environment may reduce the likelihood of depression and foster greater satisfaction and productivity.
My suggestion is to take the time to understand each member of your team, then create various interactions that can foster teamwork, satisfaction, etc. This can include:
+ Lunches or dinners - Going out to a restaurant together can give your team a reprieve from the stresses of work, while strengthening bonds. This tends to work best with extroverts. Dinners work best for singles and lunches work best for people with families (who may have to go home to a spouse and kids).
+ Movies - If there's a movie that most of your team wants to see, treat them. This may give introverts a more comfortable setting, since not everyone likes team lunches & dinners. I sometimes reserved a dark conference room and played episodes of Futurama (or some other TV show my team wanted to watch) during lunch, which worked just as well.
+ Outings, activities - Not everyone may enjoy a particular activity, like a hike or indoor rock climbing gym. But you can offer various activities to your team as opportunities to get to know one another. Don't make those who cannot or do not want to get involved feel ostracized, however. Make these optional events.
+ Code reviews, paired programming, tech talks, hackathons - These exercises not only strengthen the skills of your team, but improve team bonding as well. And chances are, all of your developers want to improve their own skills, so any chance to do that is a good thing.
+ One-on-ones - Sit down with each team member and have a chat with her/him. This is not easy for every engineering manager, as it requires skills in listening, empathy, conflict resolution, etc. The goal here is to truly listen. If something is bothering your developer, chances are you'll be able to pick it up here, giving you a chance to resolve it before it becomes a major issue. I've had developers tell me they felt like these chats were therapy sessions, though I did my best not to make it feel so clinical (in some cases, these chats were over coffee, ping pong, a walk, etc). The point is, listen.
There are many more that I've forgotten and I'm sure you've done (and please do share!)
I never had a problem with attrition by employing tactics like these. And I don't mean to imply that no one on my team had depression - I am not a licensed therapist and make no claims that I can diagnosis this condition. My point is just that engineering managers who actively cultivate a supportive environment may reduce the likelihood of depression and foster greater satisfaction and productivity.
> Lunches
This actually reminds me why I think free lunches at company cafeterias might be a net negative.
At a more traditional company lunch involves
1. Gathering the group (who wants to go to lunch?)
2. Deciding where
3. Getting in cars
4. Driving to restaurant (5-10 mins)
5. Waiting for seating (5-10 mins)
6. Ordering
7. Waiting for order to arrive (5-10 mins)
8. Eating (10-15 mins)
9. Driving back to work (5-10 mins)
That's 30-55 minutes spent together talking, interacting.
At a company with a free lunch cafeteria steps 4, 5, 7, and 9 are removed. I worked for 5 years at a company that had free cafeteria lunches. While I appreciated saving money on lunch my personal impression is I got far less camaraderie, team spirit, etc from it than from the more traditional "drive to restaurant" style.
I'm not saying companies should get rid of free lunches. Only that maybe people should look into ways to increase the time spent building friendships etc...
This actually reminds me why I think free lunches at company cafeterias might be a net negative.
At a more traditional company lunch involves
1. Gathering the group (who wants to go to lunch?)
2. Deciding where
3. Getting in cars
4. Driving to restaurant (5-10 mins)
5. Waiting for seating (5-10 mins)
6. Ordering
7. Waiting for order to arrive (5-10 mins)
8. Eating (10-15 mins)
9. Driving back to work (5-10 mins)
That's 30-55 minutes spent together talking, interacting.
At a company with a free lunch cafeteria steps 4, 5, 7, and 9 are removed. I worked for 5 years at a company that had free cafeteria lunches. While I appreciated saving money on lunch my personal impression is I got far less camaraderie, team spirit, etc from it than from the more traditional "drive to restaurant" style.
I'm not saying companies should get rid of free lunches. Only that maybe people should look into ways to increase the time spent building friendships etc...
Also, people are a lot less free about what they talk about in the company cafeteria. At a restaurant, especially if there are few people there, they are more likely to speak their mind. That's very important to create rapport.
At our company, we get free lunches from a local foodery daily. At lunch time, we all walk over and order food and walk back together and eat together. The 30+ of us typically go in two or three herds around the same time. This is great for our team cohesion. On top of that, a bunch of us go to the gym at the same time. Also great. For skill building, all code is code reviewed unless it was done during pair programming, which we do a lot of. By far, the best group of people and company I've had the opportunity to work with (other reasons too, but these seemed relevant to the topic).
We used to do Starcraft lunch at work.
2 people would play a starcraft game and the rest of us would gather in a conference room to watch the stream and provide running commentary.
We also have an in house tool that sets up lunch times between a random group of 4 people periodically. It's a great way to meet others in the office and socialize.
Both of these were employee provided ideas. If you empower your employees to implement their own ideas it can have a powerful effect on office morale.
2 people would play a starcraft game and the rest of us would gather in a conference room to watch the stream and provide running commentary.
We also have an in house tool that sets up lunch times between a random group of 4 people periodically. It's a great way to meet others in the office and socialize.
Both of these were employee provided ideas. If you empower your employees to implement their own ideas it can have a powerful effect on office morale.
> We also have an in house tool that sets up lunch times between a random group of 4 people periodically. It's a great way to meet others in the office and socialize.
This is an awesome idea! Thanks for sharing that.
This is an awesome idea! Thanks for sharing that.
Great idea, especially the running commentary part! Sounds like a great way to include more people, plus make these lunches potentially hilarious.
It also helps if there are no boring bring-lunch-from-home types.
If bringing your team together is the goal, it cannot be served by labeling those who choose to bring a lunch as "boring types". I know my feelings would be hurt if my coworkers decided to exclude me for that reason.
How does bringing lunch from home prevent team lunches? If it's scheduled ahead of time, it's easy to bring less. One might even be able to justify budgeting N lunches/month out with coworkers.
Also, lunches together don't always have to be in a restaurant. Buyers can get food to go, bringers can take theirs with them, and then you can either meet in a conference room, at a park, etc.
How does bringing lunch from home prevent team lunches? If it's scheduled ahead of time, it's easy to bring less. One might even be able to justify budgeting N lunches/month out with coworkers.
Also, lunches together don't always have to be in a restaurant. Buyers can get food to go, bringers can take theirs with them, and then you can either meet in a conference room, at a park, etc.
I like the way you think!
I guess that's true, maybe the problem is elsewhere.
And none of those annoying people that buy lunch out every day and complain about having no money all the time...
Please don't go into management.
To be brutally sincere, some people just want to get their job well done, be compensated accordingly and go home early to do something else - not be forced to take part in more company-planned activities. It has nothing to do with introversion. Ars longa, vita brevis.
On the current state of the industry, I would respect more a company that adequately deals with deadlines than one with a "friendly" environment like you outline. I'm sure I'm not alone at that.
On the current state of the industry, I would respect more a company that adequately deals with deadlines than one with a "friendly" environment like you outline. I'm sure I'm not alone at that.
I'm curious, do your movies, outings, and activities happen on company time or do people have to use their personal free time to attend? Many employees have significant others, family, etc which means they want to spend their free time as theirs.
I did this all on company time, though there were occasional evening and weekend outings (all optional). I should note that I did this at a large corporation that gave me the ability to do all of this on company time too - not all companies are that flexible.
> This may give introverts a more comfortable setting,
How?
How?
There's been a lot of literature on introversion and extroversion lately. They can explain it much better than I. Here is a good article:
http://blog.bufferapp.com/introverts-and-extroverts-what-the...
I don't mean to imply that introverts like movies and extraverts don't. Only that, as a manager of developers, you should seek to understand the type of people on your team along many different dimensions, introversion and extraversion being one of them. Then cater your activities for those particular people. What worked for the mix of people on my team may not necessarily work for the mix of people on your team.
http://blog.bufferapp.com/introverts-and-extroverts-what-the...
I don't mean to imply that introverts like movies and extraverts don't. Only that, as a manager of developers, you should seek to understand the type of people on your team along many different dimensions, introversion and extraversion being one of them. Then cater your activities for those particular people. What worked for the mix of people on my team may not necessarily work for the mix of people on your team.
Isnt it the case that introverts are more comfortable in small groups of people they know well? As long as your team does not have 40+ members, most introverts should be perfectly happy in restaurant with their team.
Some of introverts I know consider themselves extroverts, cause they get very talkative and funny in their group of their friends.
Some of introverts I know consider themselves extroverts, cause they get very talkative and funny in their group of their friends.
Yup, totally true. Introversion != shyness.
I think the issue is more that we have a skill that powers the world, but 95% of us are just business subordinates-- not professionals like doctors or professors, not even unionized-- and the 5% who have good jobs at any given time still live under the threat of an unforeseen issue (AI winter, financial crash wiping out the quant jobs, age discrimination, "Series A crunches") putting them back into the EnterpriseJavaDrone purgatory.
It's not "isolation". The software industry is a very depressing place. The pay (while not great) is solidly OK, but the status is low and the job security's abysmal.
Most software engineers have a skill that can do so much and end up having to use it to do so little.
It's not "isolation". The software industry is a very depressing place. The pay (while not great) is solidly OK, but the status is low and the job security's abysmal.
Most software engineers have a skill that can do so much and end up having to use it to do so little.
Will also add that (for lack of a better way to put it and sorry if this offends) "penis envy".
That is reading about the money that is made by others and their success and also seeing how others in the group react to that success with generally fawning reverence. With, as you have said, no particular reinforcement (by peers, friends and family or neighbors) for anything in particular that you do day to day.
That is reading about the money that is made by others and their success and also seeing how others in the group react to that success with generally fawning reverence. With, as you have said, no particular reinforcement (by peers, friends and family or neighbors) for anything in particular that you do day to day.
Wow. I could not have stated better exactly how I feel about my career, and what I perceive to be my prospects after 15 years of being 'performance review successful' in this industry. And to those who can't resist giving unsolicited advice like, "It's all you, your choices, and your attitude!" - I've heard that one.
just stay away from impressionable minds
> “Even introverts are happier when they are around people they like,”
Agreed. I don't mind spending time alone, but I love being around people I like. Usually others with a common interest. (And no, it doesn't have to be tech related. Horse people and swimmers are a lot of fun.)
Extroverts sometimes talk about themselves. A lot. Not that interesting :)
Agreed. I don't mind spending time alone, but I love being around people I like. Usually others with a common interest. (And no, it doesn't have to be tech related. Horse people and swimmers are a lot of fun.)
Extroverts sometimes talk about themselves. A lot. Not that interesting :)
"is your facebook a lie?" It resonates strangely to me, one friend told me my facebook statuses where really negative and that my fb friends were tired of it. Somehow, I guess you are contextually expected to lie anyways.
And I experienced something like the reverse of this, while I was on FB. Seeing my friends being mealy-mouthed and trite continually, because they were on a public platform visible to everybody they ever met in their life, made me involuntarily lose so much respect for them. I had to close my account so I wouldn't see it anymore. I can understand the mentality, and the desire to be this way, because I can remember feeling that kind of pressure to be a certain way and work on my cachet, when I was in middle school. I just have a really hard time tolerating it now when I see it.
It reminded me of this
https://xkcd.com/664/
when I read it. The difference between what is intellectually stimulating and gives you a sense of aesthetic pleasure and joy, and writing something that will work correctly in IE6 is too damn huge.
I just came out of doing that. The first question I got is "That's nice. But can it also do X?". On days like these I consider myself lucky that my boyfriend is also a programmer and we can pat each other on the back.
Having said that, I (in management mode) make an effort to applaud individual success in front of whole team. It's great to get cheers all round from everyone and I feel that it really strengthens us as a group.
Having said that, I (in management mode) make an effort to applaud individual success in front of whole team. It's great to get cheers all round from everyone and I feel that it really strengthens us as a group.
Programming is one of the most exciting, flow-inducing, mentally stimulating, mathematically and logically enlightening, rewarding activities I do. Programming is one of the most mind-numbing, soul-sucking, procrastination-inducing, lonely, repetitive, mentally exhausting activities I do.
Amen to that. I also feel like there is an 'OCD' part of me that allows me to do the soul sucking stuff, this drains me. I prefer it when the 'creative' part of me is expressing itself, this recharges my batteries.
Pretty sure anyone who has struggled with OCD cringes at hyperbole like this. After you've washed your hands till they bleed, "lol I'm so OCD" gets tiresome. Everyone has quirks, drop the special snowflake shit
Small tip for the ones working on their own and/or freelancers. Join a co-working space/community! I did a few months ago and the difference is very noticeable. If you're in a large-ish metro area, chances are there are some around you.
Having lunch with other people, being able to ask around for help or feedback, taking part in events are all small things that end up making a big difference.
Having lunch with other people, being able to ask around for help or feedback, taking part in events are all small things that end up making a big difference.
Here in Portland, a bunch of Ruby freelancers have started working together out of a coffee shop on Fridays. This is a lot cheaper & more casual than a co-working space, and it's a lot of fun. (It's also probably not a bad way to get the occasional new project.) I also have a couple closer friends I walk with on Monday afternoons, and that's a great way to catch up, get outside, and talk shop/life/etc.
Which coffee shop, may I ask? Not Ford Food and Drink?
They've moved around a bit, and it's fairly new. I attended at Sisters and Floyd's so far; I think there were others. There was discussion on the pdxruby list you can probably find archived, and future sessions are on Calagator. (Looks like Caffe Vita was today.) I'd love to see you there!
One personal observation is that intense, extended development is mentally exhausting to the point that social interactions are difficult. I plan my work stints around my social schedule now, to make sure I'm well-rested for having fun with people.
Posture is also very important for my sense of self. If my chest is collapsed, I feel a subtle pain that sours my mood. If my lower back is clenched, I slouch my shoulders, and I get anxious. Exercise helps keep up positive energy and cast off anxiety. It also gives me time to relax tension in my body.
In my experience, both of these can factor into depression and social anxiety. I'm much happier when I maintain a good balance.
Posture is also very important for my sense of self. If my chest is collapsed, I feel a subtle pain that sours my mood. If my lower back is clenched, I slouch my shoulders, and I get anxious. Exercise helps keep up positive energy and cast off anxiety. It also gives me time to relax tension in my body.
In my experience, both of these can factor into depression and social anxiety. I'm much happier when I maintain a good balance.
Got into a video game programming private school, sneaking into 2nd year directly because I was good, was not accepted for the next year.
Apparently, it my fault of not trying to reach out to other people for building that school project. I'm more of an introvert, I was already taking anti depressant for 2 years. I'm at the opposite side of a narcissist. Apparently it's a bad thing in society, but nobody really talk about it either.
I was told things like "humans are a social species" and "teamwork is the most important thing in business and IT" etc.
I doubt being an extravert type makes a good programmer. There need to be a balance. But if you teach people programming, why not teach them teamworking too, or just gives bonus to students for their strength without making the teamwork aspect mandatory ?
Apparently, it my fault of not trying to reach out to other people for building that school project. I'm more of an introvert, I was already taking anti depressant for 2 years. I'm at the opposite side of a narcissist. Apparently it's a bad thing in society, but nobody really talk about it either.
I was told things like "humans are a social species" and "teamwork is the most important thing in business and IT" etc.
I doubt being an extravert type makes a good programmer. There need to be a balance. But if you teach people programming, why not teach them teamworking too, or just gives bonus to students for their strength without making the teamwork aspect mandatory ?
Going directly into second year is probably a bad idea from a socialisation point of view. When you turn up in college in year one, nobody knows anybody so people have to form peer groups from scratch, thus it's easy to make new friends.
If you go into second year these peer groups are already established and it becomes harder to slot yourself in.
If you go into second year these peer groups are already established and it becomes harder to slot yourself in.
Definitely true to a certain degree. But I also think that having the experience of being forced into new friendships in first year gives people more confidence to meet people later. Its a snowball effect of sorts.
The school people were idiots, but narcissism doesn't have anything to do with introversion and extroversion.
You don't even have to pay a therapist, our minds can be trained to build extremely powerful therapeutic algorithms to avoid these situations. After my experience I quit my job as a business subordinate and started building a tool to help others manage their inner world better so that they hopefully don't end up where I did. Our approach is heavily scientific (we have two ongoing PhD projects to investigate and test our program) and we have just started out.
I'd be happy to connect with anyone who wants to share their experiences and thoughts on this topic. If you feel like it, drop me a line at: [email protected] If you are stuck in depression or a burnout and feel like breaking down, please don't hesitate to contact me, too - sometimes you just need to talk to someone. Hang in there!