What happens when people in Pakistan start taking MIT classes(theatlantic.com)
theatlantic.com
What happens when people in Pakistan start taking MIT classes
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/07/what-happens-when-people-in-pakistan-start-taking-mit-classes/277580/
16 comments
"Coursera has taken the lead in responding. The company announced in May that it was partnering with several organizations, including the Viktor Pinchuk Foundation in Ukraine, to provide subtitling for lectures in select courses in Arabic, Japanese, Kazakh, Portuguese, Russian, and Ukrainian."
Like the pro bono of lawyers, Senator Ron Wyden(Oregon), the senator attacking PRISM, etc, should legislate all those thousands(?) of language specialists of the NSA and CIA be required to translate MOOC courses for our third world brothers and sisters. All these specialists could learn new subjects too.
Wouldn't that be nice?
Like the pro bono of lawyers, Senator Ron Wyden(Oregon), the senator attacking PRISM, etc, should legislate all those thousands(?) of language specialists of the NSA and CIA be required to translate MOOC courses for our third world brothers and sisters. All these specialists could learn new subjects too.
Wouldn't that be nice?
Thank you. I still had time to edit correction.
I learned more from the clubs I joined and/or formed in university than I did from the lectures.
I do wonder whether, as the technical content becomes more widely accessible, there'll be
A) A premium put on conscientiousness.
and
B) Whether clubs for specific topics will become more popular.
The second one is very ... odd ... because it would seem to require either a provision for local spaces that isn't currently there (but might be as libraries change) or much better tools for online communities.
I do wonder whether, as the technical content becomes more widely accessible, there'll be
A) A premium put on conscientiousness.
and
B) Whether clubs for specific topics will become more popular.
The second one is very ... odd ... because it would seem to require either a provision for local spaces that isn't currently there (but might be as libraries change) or much better tools for online communities.
I think it's hard to quantify amount learned from X vs. Y, speaking as a student who goofed off almost all the time I was in college, there's still stuff from classes I took nearly thirty years ago that gives me fresh insights.
I learned more from the clubs I joined and/or formed in university than I did from the lectures.
However, it's great for schizoid people who may not have the same options that you had.
However, it's great for schizoid people who may not have the same options that you had.
Hmm?
If we look at one of the main virtues of uni as being the people it lets you meet, then I'd have thought that solitary people wouldn't have much of an advantage from attending a brick and mortar as compared to a correspondence course or similar.
Though I suppose one might argue that access to experts is important, that's - to my mind - a much more dicey proposition.
Do you mean that the nature of university is such that they'll be forced to make friends?
If we look at one of the main virtues of uni as being the people it lets you meet, then I'd have thought that solitary people wouldn't have much of an advantage from attending a brick and mortar as compared to a correspondence course or similar.
Though I suppose one might argue that access to experts is important, that's - to my mind - a much more dicey proposition.
Do you mean that the nature of university is such that they'll be forced to make friends?
Not necessarily "forced", but I was certainly much uncomfortable. A brick and mortar type of school is good if you need access to equipment and labs, but fortunately, my interests don't include practical nuclear engineering or brain surgery.
>Twenty-five-year-old Khalid Raza lives in Shakargarh but is taking "The Challenges of Global Poverty," a course taught by a former adviser to the World Bank and a professor of international economics at MIT.
Great. Now the whole world can get indoctrinated into neo-liberal economics and the like, and the educated in all countries can adopt the ideology of the ruiling empire. /s
Now, while this is indeed great for hard sciences, medicine and technology, it's very problematic for ideological and soft courses, from History to Economics to Sociology etc.
It might not be clear, but imagine the inverse: American students getting their sociology knowledge from Pakistani scholars -- with the whole ideological baggage that will carry with respect to the treatment of women, issues of personal freedom, etc.
The same harm works both ways.
Great. Now the whole world can get indoctrinated into neo-liberal economics and the like, and the educated in all countries can adopt the ideology of the ruiling empire. /s
Now, while this is indeed great for hard sciences, medicine and technology, it's very problematic for ideological and soft courses, from History to Economics to Sociology etc.
It might not be clear, but imagine the inverse: American students getting their sociology knowledge from Pakistani scholars -- with the whole ideological baggage that will carry with respect to the treatment of women, issues of personal freedom, etc.
The same harm works both ways.
"Harm"? Seems to me that learning about other cultures is very seldom harmful -- in either direction. In any event, I fail to see how exposing people in pakistan to our ideological baggage would be a bad thing overall -- they're already getting ideological baggage from hellfire missiles.
As a brazilian, I personally have the impression that the teachings in humanities in the USA is very biased towards neo-liberalism, pro-market and right-wing ideologies when I compare what's produced in brazilian and north american universities. This is probably because in the USA the universities are private, there's no free, autonomous and statal universities. And probably it's consequence of the cold war years, when left wing ideologies were seen as suspect. If I could choose a place to study computer science, engineering or science in general, I would choose some north-american university like MIT. But if I could choose a place to study humanities, specially economy or social science, I wouldn't choose a north-american university. Just my (perhaps equivocated) opinion. But it's an opinion shared by many people in humanities here.
Totally off. As someone that was a humanities major at a private American college, I have to say that %99 of the faculty could fairly be described as very left-leaning, and this is basically the case in every university I've heard of. It's almost comical how left leaning academia is - to be publicly Republican professor would probably be something of a career liability outside of a select few Christian schools. At my school, College Republicans struggled to find a faculty sponsor, while the famous socialist Howard Zinn spoke to a rousing crowd full of professors. Any subject from Shakespeare to the Civil War could and would be analyzed through the lenses of class, race, gender, colonialism.
The exception, relevant to this thread, would probably be economics departments, but even then, I have the impression that there'd at least be a healthy majority of Keynsians that would strongly object to austerity and support a lot of government interventions. So even there, I think "pro-market and right-wing" would be a stretch.
The exception, relevant to this thread, would probably be economics departments, but even then, I have the impression that there'd at least be a healthy majority of Keynsians that would strongly object to austerity and support a lot of government interventions. So even there, I think "pro-market and right-wing" would be a stretch.
>> healthy majority of Keynesians
I don't disagree with the general text of your post, but this is really, really school dependent. I would actually bet it's easier to find non-Keynesian professors.
Kenynesian theory is also a pretty "pro-market" approach when compared to some theories that exist outside the US. Government intervention is generally supposed to be limited to periods of recession.
I don't disagree with the general text of your post, but this is really, really school dependent. I would actually bet it's easier to find non-Keynesian professors.
Kenynesian theory is also a pretty "pro-market" approach when compared to some theories that exist outside the US. Government intervention is generally supposed to be limited to periods of recession.
>As a brazilian, I personally have the impression that the teachings in humanities in the USA is very biased towards neo-liberalism, pro-market and right-wing ideologies when I compare what's produced in brazilian and north american universities.
A puzzling statement. Except if you were to include business and economics among the humanities which Americans do not.
>This is probably because in the USA the universities are private, there's no free, autonomous and statal universities.
All American universities worth considering are either non-profits or state funded, so I do not understand where this idea comes from.
>But if I could choose a place to study humanities, specially economy or social science, I wouldn't choose a north-american university.
American sociologists are notably to the left of the American public.
A puzzling statement. Except if you were to include business and economics among the humanities which Americans do not.
>This is probably because in the USA the universities are private, there's no free, autonomous and statal universities.
All American universities worth considering are either non-profits or state funded, so I do not understand where this idea comes from.
>But if I could choose a place to study humanities, specially economy or social science, I wouldn't choose a north-american university.
American sociologists are notably to the left of the American public.
Humanities academics accused of being right-wingers... I've now seen it all.
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>* "Harm"? Seems to me that learning about other cultures is very seldom harmful -- in either direction.*
Or course. My comment was against "learning about" another culture, it was against being educated only in the "other culture's" ways of seeing. Especially if it's a hegemonic culture.
There are lots of cases (in lesser countries) where people that have gone through that return indoctrinated with concepts that belong to the ideology of the country the studied, and often with concepts that reflect it's low opinion on their own country and promote it's interests.
For example, Europeans that have studied economics in the US tend to come back as neo-liberals and wanting to abolish the welfare state etc.
I'm speaking mostly for fields like economics, political sciences, history, diplomacy, etc, not stuff like literary theory (of which noone cares about in either place).
Or course. My comment was against "learning about" another culture, it was against being educated only in the "other culture's" ways of seeing. Especially if it's a hegemonic culture.
There are lots of cases (in lesser countries) where people that have gone through that return indoctrinated with concepts that belong to the ideology of the country the studied, and often with concepts that reflect it's low opinion on their own country and promote it's interests.
For example, Europeans that have studied economics in the US tend to come back as neo-liberals and wanting to abolish the welfare state etc.
I'm speaking mostly for fields like economics, political sciences, history, diplomacy, etc, not stuff like literary theory (of which noone cares about in either place).
Fuck, how the hell can this be the first comment at the top?!
Because people found that it has something insightful to add to the conversation? Even as a wrong opinion to be corrected with their comments.
Now why does your content-free comment deserves to be here?
Now why does your content-free comment deserves to be here?
> from History to Economics to Sociology etc
On the other hand, on the internet finding FALSE information is so easy. A lot of times its in a form thats actually easier to consume. Its important to have these courses equally available to help combat dangerous ignorance.
On the other hand, on the internet finding FALSE information is so easy. A lot of times its in a form thats actually easier to consume. Its important to have these courses equally available to help combat dangerous ignorance.
The growth of MOOCs is clearly massive for the developing world where access to high quality educational resources is limited, but what does it mean for countries like the US? Can a person get the same quality of education from online courses as traditional courses? Can those courses be graded and accredited in a way which means something to employers? Or are we forever stuck in a model of higher education where graduating from a prestigious university is the only thing that matters, and you pay more for the prestige than the actual education itself?
You can probably get the same education if you put in sufficient effort, but going to top level universities is also about the contacts you forge with likeminded people, often in specific social strata, as well as being able to interact in person with top people in the field.
Of course you can get the contacts elsewhere if you make the effort, but the university system is extremely well placed to bring people together for extended periods of time and put them in situations that encourages bonding, and that provides a lot of value.
Frankly, not taking better advantage of that is what I miss the most about cutting my studies short (I left university to co-found my first company; I went back and completed a MSc via correspondence courses, and it served the purpose of documenting my skills, but it wasn't the same without that daily social interaction with people working on the same things).
MOOCs can probably lift the low end, and make the basic education a commodity, but universities will still serve a lot of other purposes. I could even see "universities" pop up for people to attend to take MOOCs from suppliers with top teachers for the main teaching and "just" offering support services and networking/bonding opportunities around that. E.g. universities have long used books from outside their own university, so it just makes sense for them to make use of other resources, including whole courses, when there are ones available elsewhere where they can't compete on the lectures themselves and focus on their strong points.
Of course you can get the contacts elsewhere if you make the effort, but the university system is extremely well placed to bring people together for extended periods of time and put them in situations that encourages bonding, and that provides a lot of value.
Frankly, not taking better advantage of that is what I miss the most about cutting my studies short (I left university to co-found my first company; I went back and completed a MSc via correspondence courses, and it served the purpose of documenting my skills, but it wasn't the same without that daily social interaction with people working on the same things).
MOOCs can probably lift the low end, and make the basic education a commodity, but universities will still serve a lot of other purposes. I could even see "universities" pop up for people to attend to take MOOCs from suppliers with top teachers for the main teaching and "just" offering support services and networking/bonding opportunities around that. E.g. universities have long used books from outside their own university, so it just makes sense for them to make use of other resources, including whole courses, when there are ones available elsewhere where they can't compete on the lectures themselves and focus on their strong points.
With a modicum of commitment, it is of course possible to learn the technical content of a course online or by correspondence. However, contacts are not the only (or even the main) benefit of attending a top university such as Harvard, Cambridge or MIT. Putting a group of similarly intelligent young people together in an environment that fosters learning and exchange is just as important -- students learn as much from each other as from their teachers. And the manner in which they learn is formed by the environment, which imposes certain expectations with respect to intellectual rigor and creativity.
This is how the top universities continue to stay on top despite there being only a small difference in the quality of the students studying there, and virtually no difference in course content, compared to those just beneath them in the various rankings.
This is how the top universities continue to stay on top despite there being only a small difference in the quality of the students studying there, and virtually no difference in course content, compared to those just beneath them in the various rankings.
I guess that since these MOOCs are essentially online study groups with very minimal direct interaction with professors/teaching assistants, it is very hard to verify that a student actually did all the work without help from others. Since educations are essentially tickets to getting job interviews, the incentives for cheating are high. I think that is indeed a problem which needs to be addressed. Maybe by introducing course centers where participants can take an online exam under controlled conditions, i.e., in the presence of observers?
Open University in the UK offers distance learning, but all exams are taken in person - the have long offered exam centres all over the world.
They do also offer e-mail and phone contact with advisors for many courses, and for most courses grades also partially depend on assessment of mandatory assignments 2-4 times during the course.
Of course this comes at a substantially higher cost than these MOOCs seems to do. Presumably there'll be space for some "in between" variations that offers monitoring of just the exams for example.
They do also offer e-mail and phone contact with advisors for many courses, and for most courses grades also partially depend on assessment of mandatory assignments 2-4 times during the course.
Of course this comes at a substantially higher cost than these MOOCs seems to do. Presumably there'll be space for some "in between" variations that offers monitoring of just the exams for example.
That seems to be direction that some organisations are taking MOOCs. I know here Rwanda, there's new pilot program called Kepler[1] which is going to use MOOCs as the primary teaching tool, but have students sit exams (under observation) for a "competency based" degree offered by a university in the US.
[1] http://cloudmeetscampus.com/
[1] http://cloudmeetscampus.com/
That sounds interesting. From the home page, it even seems that the program offers housing with other students, giving them a good study environment. The tuition seems to be around $1000-$1500 - I don't know what the average income is in Rwanda, but I assume that this is manageable for most people?
It's comparable to what local universities charge, and they have no problem attracting students - the quality of education might not be great but you need a degree for most government jobs, and other employers place a lot of weight on that piece of paper that says you're educated. The government also provides a lot of scholarships and loans.
Hell no. GDP per capita is under 700 dollars.
Can a person get the same quality of education from online courses as traditional courses? Can those courses be graded and accredited in a way which means something to employers?
What about the overall success of http://www.open.ac.uk ? Apparently, distance learning is acknowleged by employers.
What about the overall success of http://www.open.ac.uk ? Apparently, distance learning is acknowleged by employers.
I see a lot of untapped technological potential in Pakistan. In the past decade they have set records for some of the youngest tech wiz kids in the world, with the youngest nearly 9 years old with a Microsoft certification! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arfa_Karim
I think that if you had an incredibly bright kid in a first world country you probably would have more interesting things for that kid to do than get a Microsoft Certification. (And it totally sucks she died at 16.)
MIT placed lots of courses online long before MOOC boom.
Nowadays Coursera is the dominant MOOC platform with some very decent courses, at least on CS/AI/Neuroscience subjects.
Yale is another source of high quality materials, while Berkeley sucks after rewriting its site and removing bunch of old courses, including classic Scheme based CS 61A and courses on Buddhism studies.
Nowadays Coursera is the dominant MOOC platform with some very decent courses, at least on CS/AI/Neuroscience subjects.
Yale is another source of high quality materials, while Berkeley sucks after rewriting its site and removing bunch of old courses, including classic Scheme based CS 61A and courses on Buddhism studies.
> Berkeley sucks after rewriting its site and removing bunch of old courses, including classic Scheme based CS 61A and courses on Buddhism studies.
The oldest CS61A I found on http://webcast.berkeley.edu/series.html#c,d,Computer_Science is spring 2008. It's taught by Brian Harvey and is Scheme-based: http://webcast.berkeley.edu/playlist#c,d,Computer_Science,PL...
The oldest CS61A I found on http://webcast.berkeley.edu/series.html#c,d,Computer_Science is spring 2008. It's taught by Brian Harvey and is Scheme-based: http://webcast.berkeley.edu/playlist#c,d,Computer_Science,PL...
Yeah, this is the best version available, while he is still using classic text terminal. So classy.))
> So classy.
CS61A is one of the best courses I took in college and Brian Harvey was one of the best lecturers I had.
So whatever he uses, I'd say it works.
CS61A is one of the best courses I took in college and Brian Harvey was one of the best lecturers I had.
So whatever he uses, I'd say it works.
"All you need is Lambda".))
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The typical Pakistani education glosses over the real deal, the fundamental understanding of a topic. MOOCs are changing that. The qualification wouldn't get people interviews in Pakistan, but it would enhance their understanding nonetheless.
I just finished Edward Glaeser's Triumph of the City the other day, and after reading this article, I'm really excited to see how his theory about education level being a major factory in whether a city succeeds or not is affected.
I doubt we'll see any short term changes, but in places that don't have good access to education (or in places with an education system like Feynman experienced in Brazil) I can't help but wonder what kind of changes the world is going to experience as average global education level skyrockets due to MOOCs.
I doubt we'll see any short term changes, but in places that don't have good access to education (or in places with an education system like Feynman experienced in Brazil) I can't help but wonder what kind of changes the world is going to experience as average global education level skyrockets due to MOOCs.
This is slightly tangential, but bear with me. I'm mid-50's, and when I started programming it was a weird thing. I'd say I was a computer programmer, and I might have been the first one that normal people had actually met.
It is amazing now to see the world buried in programmers (and more being produced with people from Pakistan & etc. in Coursera's Startup Engineering).
More amazing that a lot of really good work is being done.
So how does it graph? Plateau or Vinge-ian take-off?
Is the flocking around software apps appropriate or an over-concentration of human capital?
It is amazing now to see the world buried in programmers (and more being produced with people from Pakistan & etc. in Coursera's Startup Engineering).
More amazing that a lot of really good work is being done.
So how does it graph? Plateau or Vinge-ian take-off?
Is the flocking around software apps appropriate or an over-concentration of human capital?
Universities offering degrees thru MOOC will bring revolution in terms of employment/unemployment and labor market in general .... i can foresee a scenario where for every single job position there will be lot more international applicant ready to work remotely 10 times cheaper than the same qualified person in 1st world countries ...
The article tells a short anecdote, but does not discuss motivation or future plans of the student, popularity of the program in Pakistan, whether schools and other institutions in Pakistan may start using MOOC material like community colleges in the US... at the end of the day this article does not tell us what happens at all.
Their own military industrial complex might start to flourish? I suppose it depends on what classes are available online.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Arms_Industry
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Arms_Industry
Admitably coursera classes arent starting from much, I was part of a parralel programming class mirrored on coursera and those folks did 4 I weeks of our semester class without the final project. I wonder if we will see a cheapening siniliar to ted talks
They don't give you a diploma though. And I bet it would be a separate kind of diploma. And it's not just degree but also connections. An ex-MIT is likely to hire another ex-MIT. So not much is happening at the moment.
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No, I am in no way going to benefit from this as a murrican. :)