Pin Payments is Australia’s first all-in-one online payment API(pin.net.au)
pin.net.au
Pin Payments is Australia’s first all-in-one online payment API
https://pin.net.au/#
114 comments
From Brisbane, Queensland here and it's a similar story here. The company I work for is causing ripples in the Australian pond but as a whole the Australian tech scene is way behind that of the states and other parts of the world due to our tight regulations, expensive Internet connections and slow Internet connection speeds.
For every successful Australian company I can think of, there are thousands not so lucky. Atlassian and Envato are the only two companies I can think of off of the top of my head who have had major success spawning web based businesses in a country as small and somewhat lacking as Australia as Australia is. Melbourne and Sydney are definitely two locations you're most likely to start a successful business in. Good to see Pin tackling payments because in Australia you have two options: Paypal or a propriety expensive bank solution with horrible API.
For every successful Australian company I can think of, there are thousands not so lucky. Atlassian and Envato are the only two companies I can think of off of the top of my head who have had major success spawning web based businesses in a country as small and somewhat lacking as Australia as Australia is. Melbourne and Sydney are definitely two locations you're most likely to start a successful business in. Good to see Pin tackling payments because in Australia you have two options: Paypal or a propriety expensive bank solution with horrible API.
[deleted]
Big Commerce?
Bigcommerce moved to the US (Austin), just as almost every successful tech company (and tech individual) out of Australia ends up doing.
You can't blame Australia too much for that. It's a tiny market, and the US is an abnormally large one. It's logical.
You can't blame Australia too much for that. It's a tiny market, and the US is an abnormally large one. It's logical.
I work at Bigcommerce. The development, QA, design and product teams are here in Australia; the sales, support and marketing teams are in Austin.
(There is some mixing, eg. a few devs in Austin, a few support guys here.)
(There is some mixing, eg. a few devs in Austin, a few support guys here.)
Did they really move though? My understanding are both co-CEO's are still in Sydney. I understand they opened a major office in the US but what growing Aussie company wouldn't?
That's possible, I'm just going by what someone at the company told me. Haven't looked into it further.
On the emergent 'Australian regulators are pain' meme, I actually emailed one of the bodies and requested documents regarding the decision not to adopt IIBAN, a useful and intelligent account identification scheme now used throughout Europe, Israel, and a growing list of other countries, within Australia. Their reply was essentially 'it happened in some meeting', followed by 'ignore' when I pushed for further information.
I suspect the real reason the status quo was protected was something to do with a brilliant track record of globally high fees and unending profits for Australian banks.
Hopefully the Wikileaks Party can put the fear of transparency in to these people!
I suspect the real reason the status quo was protected was something to do with a brilliant track record of globally high fees and unending profits for Australian banks.
Hopefully the Wikileaks Party can put the fear of transparency in to these people!
There's almost nowhere with low COL and good access and reasonable amenities, though. Whereas in the US, small towns are still pretty well connected to the rest of the country with a solid interstate highway system and excellent freight rail, with decent basic amenities available everywhere, and high speed internet access, small towns in Australia can have crippling remoteness in an already remote country. For example, family in Ballarat, which is a regional Victorian town about an hour from Melbourne (it's not very remote; many people commute to Melbourne every day via rail), can only get wireless 3G internet access to their suburban house. I know the NBN will change some things, but they will most likely remain wireless.
And the smaller cities aren't going to be much cheaper, either. The median house price across all of Australia is around $500k (!).
And the smaller cities aren't going to be much cheaper, either. The median house price across all of Australia is around $500k (!).
As someone who lives in Perth, I can concur with the ridiculous cost of living here at the moment, and am also surprised that this seems to have been developed at least partly here. However, the meetup/tech/startup scene is developing here (albeit slowly). Check out some spacecubed events when you're next here.
Congratulations to the guys at Pin!
As an Australian, I welcome this wholeheartedly. It has been extremely frustrating watching the payment revolution in the states, whilst at home there is next to no alternative to getting a merchants facility through a bank up until now. It will also be nice dealing with an API that isn't stuck in the 90s.
As an Australian, I welcome this wholeheartedly. It has been extremely frustrating watching the payment revolution in the states, whilst at home there is next to no alternative to getting a merchants facility through a bank up until now. It will also be nice dealing with an API that isn't stuck in the 90s.
Braintree are in Australia, and their API is quite lovely these days.
edit: apologies, I didn't realize braintree required a merchant account as well.
edit: apologies, I didn't realize braintree required a merchant account as well.
Braintree here. Gave the same response below in the thread,but wanted to make sure to address here as well. You all are right. Getting a merchant account and setting up a foreign currency account has been notoriously difficult to get in the past with extremely high fees and approval requirements. This is no longer the case. Braintree sponsors merchants to get setup with a merchant account in Australia and has built an accelerated process to creating foreign currency accounts.
If a provider states that no merchant account is required, you are most likely being placed on an aggregated merchant account. This has many disadvantages for the merchant as you are grouped under one umbrella account. As the provider grows, this becomes unsustainable and often leads to poor customer experiences (a la Paypal account freezes).
We're working to create a sustainable solution where customer service and great software are the central focus. We'll be constantly improving the on-boarding timeline and look forward to helping the fast growing tech scene in Australia. Always happy to answer any questions about anything payments or e-commerce related, just let us know!
If a provider states that no merchant account is required, you are most likely being placed on an aggregated merchant account. This has many disadvantages for the merchant as you are grouped under one umbrella account. As the provider grows, this becomes unsustainable and often leads to poor customer experiences (a la Paypal account freezes).
We're working to create a sustainable solution where customer service and great software are the central focus. We'll be constantly improving the on-boarding timeline and look forward to helping the fast growing tech scene in Australia. Always happy to answer any questions about anything payments or e-commerce related, just let us know!
Merchant accounts are a huge PITA.
You have to pay a bunch of money up front and then, if you're not a fish-and-chip shop or similar, you'll probably be told "no".
Plus, each bank will ask if you've ever been knocked back somewhere else. If you honestly answer that you have, guess how that affects your chances?
You have to pay a bunch of money up front and then, if you're not a fish-and-chip shop or similar, you'll probably be told "no".
Plus, each bank will ask if you've ever been knocked back somewhere else. If you honestly answer that you have, guess how that affects your chances?
I started the process of getting a merchant account with NAB and quickly gave up. They had a long check list of requirements that had to be completed before the application was submitted. This included have the signup and subscription processes fully working so they could test them.
Pin is very needed here.
Pin is very needed here.
I love that this is happening and this innovation is extremely important in the Australian market.
However, if you're an Australian company that wants to deal exclusively or largely in USD -- then you need to keep an eye on the cost.
Pin is offering $50/month ($9 promo atm) - then 3% and $0.30 on every transaction. Then for foreign exchange there is "a retail foreign exchange rate of 4% on top of the wholesale interbank rate at the time of the transaction" https://pin.net.au/pricing
Plus if you've got USD outgoings - e.g. paying for EC2 - you'll cop the foreign exchange on the way out too.
All of these things chip away & can add up to quite a considerable overhead.
However, if you're an Australian company that wants to deal exclusively or largely in USD -- then you need to keep an eye on the cost.
Pin is offering $50/month ($9 promo atm) - then 3% and $0.30 on every transaction. Then for foreign exchange there is "a retail foreign exchange rate of 4% on top of the wholesale interbank rate at the time of the transaction" https://pin.net.au/pricing
Plus if you've got USD outgoings - e.g. paying for EC2 - you'll cop the foreign exchange on the way out too.
All of these things chip away & can add up to quite a considerable overhead.
Th $50/month really is a trivial cost to any business larger than a couple of people, particularly for a service which eases the intake of money. It's the per-payment costs that you need to consider. A flagfall charge of 30c is meaningless when your invoices are $1k, and very high when they're $10. 3% on every transaction might sound a lot, but (I assume) that includes the credit card company cut, which usually comes in at around 2%, so effectively it's a 1% fee for the service.
Forex is beyond me, and that's where it does get complex :)
Forex is beyond me, and that's where it does get complex :)
The problem is the FX - and as others have pointed out, this isn't a problem that is necessarily unique to Pin (However, Pin are providing a common retail rate).
It's $50/month. $0.30/transaction. Then 3% and then another 4% for the FX. Then maybe you pay your EC2 bill, or your Adwords account, or your oDesk freelancer and that's another 4-5% on the way back.
If you're doing a large volume of small transactions you'll be racking up ~15% just in fees. If you manage to change that to fewer larger transactions, you might get that to 8-9%. However, even though the % is slightly healthier it's now serious money ($1,000s). Once you get into that camp having a US entity (or whatever) starts to pay off.
Meanwhile, your US-based competitors are doing a flat $0.30 and 2.9% with Stripe (That's just off the bat! Your bigger competitors are using Braintree and probably getting sub 2% overall).
Sounds like I'm hating on Pin. I'm not. Genuinely embrace that they're on the scene. Payments in Australia have been a world of hurt for a long time. This is a great first beachhead and getting this capability out there is fundamental.
It's $50/month. $0.30/transaction. Then 3% and then another 4% for the FX. Then maybe you pay your EC2 bill, or your Adwords account, or your oDesk freelancer and that's another 4-5% on the way back.
If you're doing a large volume of small transactions you'll be racking up ~15% just in fees. If you manage to change that to fewer larger transactions, you might get that to 8-9%. However, even though the % is slightly healthier it's now serious money ($1,000s). Once you get into that camp having a US entity (or whatever) starts to pay off.
Meanwhile, your US-based competitors are doing a flat $0.30 and 2.9% with Stripe (That's just off the bat! Your bigger competitors are using Braintree and probably getting sub 2% overall).
Sounds like I'm hating on Pin. I'm not. Genuinely embrace that they're on the scene. Payments in Australia have been a world of hurt for a long time. This is a great first beachhead and getting this capability out there is fundamental.
Forex can sting, true. Managing a foreign bank account is not great fun either though. I'm not going to underestimate the significance of this business, I think it's going to be great for the Australian market.
Yup. Thats well worth pointing out. Pin is awesome for Australian facing businesses, but if you want to trade in USD, better off elsewhere.
> Yup. Thats well worth pointing out. Pin is awesome for Australian facing businesses, but if you want to trade in USD, better off elsewhere.
"Better off elsewhere" - where? Braintree seems like the only similar option, and as discussed elsewhere in this comment thread: you need a merchant account if you want to engage with them.
(I'm happy to take suggestions, but there's just a dearth of them!)
"Better off elsewhere" - where? Braintree seems like the only similar option, and as discussed elsewhere in this comment thread: you need a merchant account if you want to engage with them.
(I'm happy to take suggestions, but there's just a dearth of them!)
Agree. There aren't a lot of great options.
At the low end (transaction volume/amounts), you just get murdered on costs. If you've got a niche or high margin business this might be fine.
At the higher end. Well. It seems that a US entity is the way to go. If you structure the vehicle according to some strict rules, you don't incur any US tax. The fixed costs are much, much higher, but the breakpoint is probably lower than people think. This is especially true if you have any kind of cost-base in the US.
There are a few other hacks too. If you're a SaaS business you might consider deeper discounts for annual payment. This is good for cash flow & bumps up your individual transactions. This can change the equation a little - and it's probably better for the $ to be in your customers' pocket rather than a bunch of intermediary financial institutions.
As you say. I'm open to hearing constructive suggestions too! It's frustrating how complex this still is.
Edit: One of the biggest bugbears is AMEX. Even if you get yourself a NAB USD account - AMEX only ever process in the home currency (i.e. AUD). It's easy to be ignorant of this in Australia as AMEX is considered reasonably rare. However, it's pretty much a requirement to operate in the US... So you get this expensive facility, then half your transactions come in AMEX and get processed to AUD anyway (damn). Very open to hear better solutions!
At the low end (transaction volume/amounts), you just get murdered on costs. If you've got a niche or high margin business this might be fine.
At the higher end. Well. It seems that a US entity is the way to go. If you structure the vehicle according to some strict rules, you don't incur any US tax. The fixed costs are much, much higher, but the breakpoint is probably lower than people think. This is especially true if you have any kind of cost-base in the US.
There are a few other hacks too. If you're a SaaS business you might consider deeper discounts for annual payment. This is good for cash flow & bumps up your individual transactions. This can change the equation a little - and it's probably better for the $ to be in your customers' pocket rather than a bunch of intermediary financial institutions.
As you say. I'm open to hearing constructive suggestions too! It's frustrating how complex this still is.
Edit: One of the biggest bugbears is AMEX. Even if you get yourself a NAB USD account - AMEX only ever process in the home currency (i.e. AUD). It's easy to be ignorant of this in Australia as AMEX is considered reasonably rare. However, it's pretty much a requirement to operate in the US... So you get this expensive facility, then half your transactions come in AMEX and get processed to AUD anyway (damn). Very open to hear better solutions!
> At the higher end. Well. It seems that a US entity is the way to go. If you structure the vehicle according to some strict rules, you don't incur any US tax. The fixed costs are much, much higher, but the breakpoint is probably lower than people think. This is especially true if you have any kind of cost-base in the US.
Yeah, absolutely. There are Australians out there with US entities so they can use Stripe; that ultimately seems the way to go if you are doing volume/have thin margins.
I'm (about to) run a niche, high-margin service so Pin isn't too bad, esp. at the intro pricing. The good thing is that their API's are so similar that porting across isn't a lot of work if you need to do so down the track, and/or if Stripe launches a local offering.
I really like what Pin is doing, but clearly they only have so much push with the bank(s). Perhaps in time (when they get more volume) they can pass on some savings to end-users.
Yeah, absolutely. There are Australians out there with US entities so they can use Stripe; that ultimately seems the way to go if you are doing volume/have thin margins.
I'm (about to) run a niche, high-margin service so Pin isn't too bad, esp. at the intro pricing. The good thing is that their API's are so similar that porting across isn't a lot of work if you need to do so down the track, and/or if Stripe launches a local offering.
I really like what Pin is doing, but clearly they only have so much push with the bank(s). Perhaps in time (when they get more volume) they can pass on some savings to end-users.
After paypal shutting down my account on a number of occasions while organising campjs.com, we switched from Paypal+EventBrite to Pin+Tito and it's been smooth sailing ever since. The Pin team has been a joy to deal with, responsive to feedback and I highly recommend them. Congratulations to Pin.
Been watching these guys closely for the past 8 months or so.
These guys are based out of Perth, Australia and offer some pretty compelling prices, especially the email they sent them morning where their monthly pricing went down to $9 a month (instead of $50).
They use ruby on rails, and offer a JSON API.bEE
These guys are based out of Perth, Australia and offer some pretty compelling prices, especially the email they sent them morning where their monthly pricing went down to $9 a month (instead of $50).
They use ruby on rails, and offer a JSON API.bEE
Would love to hear their story.
For those who don't know, Perth is the most remote city in the world (according to Bill Bryson), and has a population shy of 2 million mostly in a sprawl that hugs the coast.
I spent over a month there and a couple of weeks exploring the area around Margaret River, lovely place... but reading this, what strikes me is how hard it must be to find support, raise money, and build a startup with reach in a city of such remoteness and with only a limited pool of angels and tech resource to call upon.
So... knowing the city and WA as briefly as I do, I think this startup would probably have a good story behind it about the adverse environment (for startups) in which they emerged and what it took to get to where they are, and where they're going from here.
For those who don't know, Perth is the most remote city in the world (according to Bill Bryson), and has a population shy of 2 million mostly in a sprawl that hugs the coast.
I spent over a month there and a couple of weeks exploring the area around Margaret River, lovely place... but reading this, what strikes me is how hard it must be to find support, raise money, and build a startup with reach in a city of such remoteness and with only a limited pool of angels and tech resource to call upon.
So... knowing the city and WA as briefly as I do, I think this startup would probably have a good story behind it about the adverse environment (for startups) in which they emerged and what it took to get to where they are, and where they're going from here.
Perth is rolling in money - that's where the mining industry has boomed, dragging the Australian dollar up with it. It's remote, but that doesn't mean it's poor.
It also has a VC culture of not funding anything that isn't pulling valuable things out of the ground. :(
Yeah, that's basically what I was getting at with my comparison as the London VC culture as that isn't greatly interested in stuff that doesn't involve high frequency trading, forex, markets, and anything that basically processes money and transactions.
Is Perth rolling in money the way that London is? Here, the financial money favours financial startups.
Perth is wealthy, but is the money mostly poured back into mining related ventures?
Perth is wealthy, but is the money mostly poured back into mining related ventures?
Unlikely, given that London is rolling in money, and that Greater London is ten times the size of Greater Perth. Though I really couldn't tell you what the VC culture is like there, because I don't move in those circles :) I have seen a few decent techs coming to Melbourne with places in WA on their resume though.
There is a PHENOMENAL amount of money out in Perth. It may be small, but some of the wealthiest in the world (and the world's wealthiest woman) live there.
Largely due to mining, Australia's average wage is around $70k but our median wage is around $45k. Pretty crazy.
It's a similar atmosphere to Texas oil culture (I hear, anyway). Lots of secessionists saying Western Australia is keeping the country afloat. This is somewhat true (but not entirely), and they tend to forget 20 years ago WA was a shitheap with nothing going for it.
Largely due to mining, Australia's average wage is around $70k but our median wage is around $45k. Pretty crazy.
It's a similar atmosphere to Texas oil culture (I hear, anyway). Lots of secessionists saying Western Australia is keeping the country afloat. This is somewhat true (but not entirely), and they tend to forget 20 years ago WA was a shitheap with nothing going for it.
Perth has a really active web scene, I feel like one of the most talkative in the country sometimes..
We are remote yes, but we have so many events going on here that it makes up for it.
They have support from the banks and also the Australian Government so would love to hear how that all went, if/when I meet them I'll ask them to blog about it then post on HN.
We are remote yes, but we have so many events going on here that it makes up for it.
They have support from the banks and also the Australian Government so would love to hear how that all went, if/when I meet them I'll ask them to blog about it then post on HN.
Perth is at a disadvantage though being so far from all the angels/VC in the eastern states so kudos to Pin.
And being originally from Perth it is fantastic to see it show that it is so much more than just a FIFO mining town.
And being originally from Perth it is fantastic to see it show that it is so much more than just a FIFO mining town.
I too would love to hear the story. Australia isn't known for being all that startup friendly, and with WA being the mining sector predominantly I found it quite refreshing to see something so tech focused coming out of there.
It looks like they have a great team and in my limited experience their customer service is really good. Hopefully some of them chime in here though their director seems a little HN shy from one of his latest tweets.
It looks like they have a great team and in my limited experience their customer service is really good. Hopefully some of them chime in here though their director seems a little HN shy from one of his latest tweets.
I'm a co-founder of Pin Payments. Not shy, just on HN-sabbatical :)
There's a story to tell! Building something like this in Perth is hard, but that's part of what makes it such an opportunity.
We're by no means the only tech startup here too - given the population and isolation, Perth is well represented in Australian startup crowd.
There's a story to tell! Building something like this in Perth is hard, but that's part of what makes it such an opportunity.
We're by no means the only tech startup here too - given the population and isolation, Perth is well represented in Australian startup crowd.
Hi! I'm from Perth (Subiaco) but have been an ex-pat for over 20 years. The reason is, I've always considered Perth a mining town, and have managed to live in many other big cities around the world during an active professional life, working as a systems software developer. I'm quite ex-pat, but fondly dream of days in the sun..
So I take this opportunity to ask someone, sensibly: Is there a thriving tech scene in Perth? Software businesses, catering to a local market, that sort of thing? Like most major cities, there is probably an 'IT sector', consisting of hardware and systems support companies, probably -and of course the Uni's of WA are all very well connected in the F/OSS/Academic systems software departments. But, whats the local software economy like? Much custom, Business to business, software?
I imagine that with the Perth Mint and the Mining banks involved in all this, its going to be a solid way to do business in that part of the world, as well as Internationally. I'm, anyhow, off to get my family to set up their Pin Payments accounts asap .. :)
So I take this opportunity to ask someone, sensibly: Is there a thriving tech scene in Perth? Software businesses, catering to a local market, that sort of thing? Like most major cities, there is probably an 'IT sector', consisting of hardware and systems support companies, probably -and of course the Uni's of WA are all very well connected in the F/OSS/Academic systems software departments. But, whats the local software economy like? Much custom, Business to business, software?
I imagine that with the Perth Mint and the Mining banks involved in all this, its going to be a solid way to do business in that part of the world, as well as Internationally. I'm, anyhow, off to get my family to set up their Pin Payments accounts asap .. :)
The tech scene here is quite thriving. We have "Port 80" meetups[1], as well as many other meetups for a vary of topics. As you said the universities here and quite tech-focused (Curtin, Murdoch, UWA) which is great, and the TAFE courses are usually full (for IT/Web/Programming).
There is quite a lot of businesses who want customised web solutions (not just in mining, but would account for a large portion), so as a result there are quite a few web companies here in Perth who do anything from small business websites all the way up to customised systems. The industry does go quiet sometimes, however it's usually pretty busy especially as more people over east bring business over to Perth thanks to the thriving web market here :).
[1] - port80.asn.au
There is quite a lot of businesses who want customised web solutions (not just in mining, but would account for a large portion), so as a result there are quite a few web companies here in Perth who do anything from small business websites all the way up to customised systems. The industry does go quiet sometimes, however it's usually pretty busy especially as more people over east bring business over to Perth thanks to the thriving web market here :).
[1] - port80.asn.au
Hey, thanks for the info about port80, perfect way for me to get some intel done .. so next time I'm in Perth I'll be sure to include a Wednesday meeting in the schedule.. alas, it'll be a year or two yet (young un's) but the time will come .. ;)
This is so timely for me. Thanks.
Do you do credit card only? What about recurring charges?
Do you do credit card only? What about recurring charges?
Hey! I'm from Perth too, we've probably met at Spacecubed. Would definitely be interested in the story, especially how you got support from the Government.
They're in Perth? I didn't know that.
In addition to the tyranny of distance, what's working against startups here is the high cost of living.
In addition to the tyranny of distance, what's working against startups here is the high cost of living.
There is lots of mining boom money in perth.... lots.
I don't know what your email said, but mine said it was $9 if you sign up this month, otherwise $50.
Mine says before the end of June - so you have a full month try it out and decide.
Most of the team is in Melbourne these days.
I have been testing with these guys as we get closer to releasing our service and they have been great to deal with. Not having to worry about a merchant account saved a lot of time when it came to paperwork and the integration is very simple.
The payments sector has been awaiting a shakeup in Australia for some time now, and Pin will definitely be a recognizable force moving forward.
Congrats on the launch and thanks for the lowered monthly fee!
The payments sector has been awaiting a shakeup in Australia for some time now, and Pin will definitely be a recognizable force moving forward.
Congrats on the launch and thanks for the lowered monthly fee!
"The conversion is completed at a retail foreign exchange rate of 4% on top of the wholesale interbank rate at the time of the transaction".
So the actual pricing is more like $9/mo + .30 + 7% for any non AUD business.
We use Stripe, a Bank of America USD account and OANDA to move our USD -> AUD with an FX commission ~ 0.1%.
So the actual pricing is more like $9/mo + .30 + 7% for any non AUD business.
We use Stripe, a Bank of America USD account and OANDA to move our USD -> AUD with an FX commission ~ 0.1%.
Would you be able to do a more complete writeup of what you did (setting up EIN, getting a bank account, etc.) and all the implications (especially tax)? I've seen one person do such a thing to a limited degree and I've got the gist of the process myself, but I'd really like to see more info about this sort of thing.
There's one point in favour of Pin, though: easy setup. For side-projects, $9/month and have an ABN is comparatively little, where going through creating a merchant account alone---let alone the other requirements---is a big deterrant and thus, I think, quite harmful to this micro/experimental online business sector. My plan is basically use Pin while it's the cheapest and simplest, then when my business has demonstrated viability, go for the cheaper, more complex option. (Naturally this is dependent upon having a fairly-high-margin business.)
There's one point in favour of Pin, though: easy setup. For side-projects, $9/month and have an ABN is comparatively little, where going through creating a merchant account alone---let alone the other requirements---is a big deterrant and thus, I think, quite harmful to this micro/experimental online business sector. My plan is basically use Pin while it's the cheapest and simplest, then when my business has demonstrated viability, go for the cheaper, more complex option. (Naturally this is dependent upon having a fairly-high-margin business.)
Is it possible to have USD payments deposited in my account directly without having currency conversion inside Pin? My bank account (Citibank Australia) tends to be significantly cheaper when depositing in USD than when gateways convert and charge their own conversion fee.
I know nothing about Pin's business model, but I bet the answer is "No" - in most processors like this, foreign exchange is what actually makes the profit for the company.
The $50/$0.30/3% you pay will cover expenses and make a bit of money, but the margins are pretty tight on that part of the transaction - it's all the FX leveraging/charging they do with your non-AUD income that actually makes the company viable.
The $50/$0.30/3% you pay will cover expenses and make a bit of money, but the margins are pretty tight on that part of the transaction - it's all the FX leveraging/charging they do with your non-AUD income that actually makes the company viable.
I'll second this. A lot of the time it's easier just to hold a foreign currency as-is rather than chugging back and forth.
That said, foreign currency accounts are usually expensive. Westpac quoted me a $60/mth account keeping fee.
That said, foreign currency accounts are usually expensive. Westpac quoted me a $60/mth account keeping fee.
Yeah, seems to be industry standard to throw nearly one percent on top of any conversion.
If I'm reading https://pin.net.au/pricing correctly, they're charging four percent extra for conversion, which sounds like it means they end up costing 7% + 30c for payments in USD.
I've looked at a lot of options for accepting USD from Australia and 4% is pretty standard for retail exchange rate.
I ended up going with a US entity + bank account, which is the best option of a bunch of crappy options.
Pin looks good for small volumes
I ended up going with a US entity + bank account, which is the best option of a bunch of crappy options.
Pin looks good for small volumes
Not sure why they need to do that, AUD/USD forex is something like .1 of a percent given a high enough amount if I recall correctly. I am probably missing something.
The temporarily reduced pricing means I can actually justify trying a few side projects without investing too much into it. Thanks so much Pin!
That was my feeling too. $600/year for what is at present a spare-time project and not complete (thus, not ready to accept payments) was putting me off; $108/year is sufficiently low that I'm pretty confident I'll be signing up in the next month... then there's the added benefit of the incentive that will give me to get something worth paying for up quickly to make it financially worthwhile. :-)
And then for any further side-projects... I'll already have the low-maintenance account. Great!
And then for any further side-projects... I'll already have the low-maintenance account. Great!
Great stuff! Good to see this coming out of Perth and hopefully they can get a good foothold on the market from support of businesses here before the bigger US/EU competitors (finally) arrive.
I don't understand the $50 a month fee, they're taking that on top of 3% and 30c a transaction.
Uh, and they also don't support 2FA on their login form; that's not going to end well.
Uh, and they also don't support 2FA on their login form; that's not going to end well.
I would not be amazed if this reflects the upstream cost structure from NAB, their bank. Merchant accounts generally have monthly fees + percentages + fixed per-transaction costs.
Welcome to Australian banking.
Welcome to Australian banking.
Welcome to the Australian banking cartel
Somehow through one of the worst banking crisis in the history of the world the major Australian banks still remained some of the most profitable companies in the world.
The banks in Australia are a huge tax on the economy but politically nobody will raise the issue - since despite getting shafted the Australian public is too shallow to see past the fear mongering of job losses in the banking sector and having to protect it.
Somehow through one of the worst banking crisis in the history of the world the major Australian banks still remained some of the most profitable companies in the world.
The banks in Australia are a huge tax on the economy but politically nobody will raise the issue - since despite getting shafted the Australian public is too shallow to see past the fear mongering of job losses in the banking sector and having to protect it.
Oh, for sure. The massive profitability of the Big 4 has its blessings, and it lets the RBA set quite high reserve ratios by global standards.
But our market is too small to attract truly serious competition. A serious foreign entrant would need to buy a Big 4 and that would be expensive and messy.
But our market is too small to attract truly serious competition. A serious foreign entrant would need to buy a Big 4 and that would be expensive and messy.
Even with the $50 fee it is still much, much cheaper and easier than anything else available here in Australia (which is basically to get eWay + a merchant account).
I am very that excited this came through and am doubly grateful for the $9 offer they're doing.
I'll have to get a sole trader ABN to be eligible to use it but I suspect it will be worth it.
I am very that excited this came through and am doubly grateful for the $9 offer they're doing.
I'll have to get a sole trader ABN to be eligible to use it but I suspect it will be worth it.
It has special pricing of $9/month for life if you signup during June.
$9 until the end of June.
And that's Australian Banking. Alternatives are even more pricy..........
And that's Australian Banking. Alternatives are even more pricy..........
huh? "A monthly service fee of $9 gives you everything you need to accept payments in your website or application."
The $9 a month is an introductory price valid for registrations this month only. The original (and I suspect the price if you register next month) was $50.
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I would still think that Braintree would be a better bet.
They abstract the bank part of the equation as well so you are just dealing with a single entity for any issues that arise. Plus their pricing is a little bit better:
https://www.braintreepayments.com/pricing
That said ANY competition is always nice. The real question though is how they handle chargebacks.
They abstract the bank part of the equation as well so you are just dealing with a single entity for any issues that arise. Plus their pricing is a little bit better:
https://www.braintreepayments.com/pricing
That said ANY competition is always nice. The real question though is how they handle chargebacks.
Braintree require you get an NAB merchant account and, if you want to support USD then you have to also get the NAB foreign-currency accounts.
> Braintree require you get an NAB merchant account and, if you want to support USD then you have to also get the NAB foreign-currency accounts.
Which, to me, are not-insubstantial barriers. Pin might not be as competitive on price (barring the $9/m intro offer), but just being able to supply a regular account to handle their deposits is convenient.
On a somewhat related note, I'm currently forking Drone.io's go.stripe library[1] for Pin Payments, given the extreme similarity of the Stripe & Pin API's. If anyone is keen on helping, get in touch or send me a pull request: https://github.com/elithrar/go.pin
[1]: https://github.com/drone/go.stripe
Which, to me, are not-insubstantial barriers. Pin might not be as competitive on price (barring the $9/m intro offer), but just being able to supply a regular account to handle their deposits is convenient.
On a somewhat related note, I'm currently forking Drone.io's go.stripe library[1] for Pin Payments, given the extreme similarity of the Stripe & Pin API's. If anyone is keen on helping, get in touch or send me a pull request: https://github.com/elithrar/go.pin
[1]: https://github.com/drone/go.stripe
Totally. I don't know how it is in the US, but in AU braintree doesn't even compete with eway + your choice of bank.
IMHO Pin lowers the barrier to entry for accepting CC, which is most welcome, and long overdue in this country.
IMHO Pin lowers the barrier to entry for accepting CC, which is most welcome, and long overdue in this country.
That library looks cool! I wrote a Go client library for Braintree the other day if you want to take a look.
https://github.com/lionelbarrow/braintree-go
https://github.com/lionelbarrow/braintree-go
I would want to get some feedback from Braintree on this. Requiring a NAB foreign currency account is a pretty big deal. I used to have a NAB foreign currency account and it was a bit hard to operated, might have improved in the last few years however.
I personally use Braintree but with a US account for a US company (even though I live in Australia). This is more of an exceptional case however I think.
For Australian businesses charging in US dollars is not exceptional, probably very common.
I personally use Braintree but with a US account for a US company (even though I live in Australia). This is more of an exceptional case however I think.
For Australian businesses charging in US dollars is not exceptional, probably very common.
Braintree here. You all are right. Getting a merchant account and setting up a foreign currency account has been notoriously difficult to get in the past with extremely high fees and approval requirements. This is no longer the case. Braintree sponsors merchants to get setup with a merchant account in Australia and has built an accelerated process to creating foreign currency accounts.
If a provider states that no merchant account is required, you are most likely being placed on an aggregated merchant account. This has many disadvantages for the merchant as you are grouped under one umbrella account. As the provider grows, this becomes unsustainable and often leads to poor customer experiences (a la Paypal account freezes).
We're working to create a sustainable solution where customer service and great software are the central focus. We'll be constantly improving the on-boarding timeline and look forward to helping the fast growing tech scene in Australia.
If a provider states that no merchant account is required, you are most likely being placed on an aggregated merchant account. This has many disadvantages for the merchant as you are grouped under one umbrella account. As the provider grows, this becomes unsustainable and often leads to poor customer experiences (a la Paypal account freezes).
We're working to create a sustainable solution where customer service and great software are the central focus. We'll be constantly improving the on-boarding timeline and look forward to helping the fast growing tech scene in Australia.
Pin Payments here. This is obviously some great information from our friends at Braintree on traditional banking relationships. At Pin Payments, we actually introduced some new ways of doing things which are different than a traditional aggregated merchant account (like Stripe) or a traditional sponsored merchant account (like Braintree). Pin Payments is currently unique (as far as we know). We onboard merchants instantly for local and foreign currency and we do not handle the money (Perpetual, our custodian, does). We do not operate an aggregated merchant account, each dev/customer is actually represented individually with each banking partner. We actually abstract the bank from the relationship, so we can provide a redundant banking model. We also have SLA's with our banking partners to ensure as-close-to-immediate on-boarding as we can right now (aiming for realtime of course). It's taken us around 18 months to get this model up-and-running in Australia. We think this is pretty awesome for Aussie devs and we also think it will scale well beyond Australia (where the financial regulations are obviously amongst the strictest in the world). Just sayin'
Wow. Was not aware of that and their web site definitely seems misleading.
Will definitely be giving Pin a go then.
Will definitely be giving Pin a go then.
Which unless you have a stack of cash to park there and are doing something they don't associate with risk is pretty hard to do when getting started.
Signed up even though I don't have an immediate requirement for this service.
Great to see some local innovation in the financial space.
First, congratulations to the Pin team. However I wonder about the longevity of companies that are essentially Stripe clones in unsupported countries. Their business essentially depends on the fact that Stripe is not currently in Australia. Once Stripe announces support for Australia, why would anyone choose Pin over Stripe?
Apparently our financial regulations are an obtuse, onerous nightmare to deal with. I imagine even just getting setup here is a big head start. Google Merchant have been expanding for years but are still ignoring Australia, so thank you Pin
How to get Stripe in Australia, set up Pin, $$$-big (locally), BRANDBRANDBRAND (its an Aussie thing), and then .. when big enough, the sharks come calling, throw out the chum ..
I would imagine that it would be much easier for Stripe to acquire local Stripe equivalents and rebrand, rather than trying to navigate the labyrinth of financial regulations in each location. Maybe that's the game plan for Pin?
From another Perth guy, more congrats to the Pin team (I actually discovered them when I had the same idea, googled it and found that it existed already - in my own town!)
From another Perth guy, more congrats to the Pin team (I actually discovered them when I had the same idea, googled it and found that it existed already - in my own town!)
Early on they didn't say much about their being in Perth -- like most Perthans I assumed that they were in Sydney or Melbourne.
I found out that they were here by looking the company details on ASIC.
I found out that they were here by looking the company details on ASIC.
The website claims that they are backed by the government but doesn't go into any detail.
Can anyone clarify?
Yeah, they might want to reword that. I think they mean that they got a grant: http://www.commercialisationaustralia.gov.au/OurParticipants...
If Stripe was thinking about moving into the Australian market, Pin would provide them a ready-made solution. All things equal, this startup has a high chance of getting acquired/ merged.
There's not much documentation that I can find on it, so, do you need a merchant account for this, or will any bank account work?
From the front page:
No gateway or merchant account required.I believe you also need an ABN to begin charging live customers.
This is an Australian law requirement anyway for charging anyone for anything.
Strictly speaking, no. In Australia, businesses cannot pay suppliers unless they have an ABN, otherwise their payment will be subject to Fringe Benefit Tax (FBT). You can take money as an individual without ABN however. With PayPal this is already possible. You can run a small operation eg on ebay but as soon as you call it a business you should get an ABN, but then you also have to pay income tax on what you make.
From memory, the cutoff is essentially $50k for "seriously, you should register this properly as a business". The tax office doesn't want to chase businesses below this as a ton of them are hobby businesses and things get complex fast. Bigger fish to fry and all that.
There is a test to see if something is a business or a "hobby", it isn't a revenue cut odd, its more about the nature of the operation.
The 50k cutoff used to be the threshold for GsT registration, which is now 75k
The 50k cutoff used to be the threshold for GsT registration, which is now 75k
Which actually effectively requires you to have an ABN to charge anyone in Australia. Without it, anyone you were selling to would be required with withhold 48.5%. How does an individual do that?
Selling to individuals as non-business does not require any withholding
You mean PAYG withholding not FBT. But you are certainly correct that an ABN is not necessary to charge for something
They have a JSON API + docs from the account area (atleast during BETA).
https://pin.net.au/docs/api
https://pin.net.au/docs/api
Any account, no merchant account required.
I hope this pushes http://www.paymentexpress.com/ to up their game.
Don't even get me started... PaymentExpress demanded we sign a 3 year contract to move off their "starter" plan. This is after them stuffing up our recurring billing for 6 weeks late last year. Cost us thousands.
Told them to jam it, in the process of moving to Pin as we speak.
Told them to jam it, in the process of moving to Pin as we speak.
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this is stellar, sterling and capital, all at the same time. I was days away from signing up with eWay.
Maintain the modern API and take good care of your customers, I'll refer you to everyone I know and your customers will ensure you'll remain in business for a long while. Welcome!
I wonder what the chances of them getting this to us in NZ are...
Why not use SwipeHQ? https://www.swipehq.com/
They're based in NZ, have lower transaction fees, no monthly fee, and already support 12 different currencies.
They're based in NZ, have lower transaction fees, no monthly fee, and already support 12 different currencies.
I can't give you an ETA, but the chances are high.
Any way we can lock in the $9/mo pricing for when you launch in NZ? As others have said, it would be awesome to have available for side projects!
So this exact post was made almost exactly a year ago.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4078334
Closed alpha testing vs public availability?
Progress, not the exact same post.
Progress, not the exact same post.
1. Doing anything financial in Australia is hard. For better or for worse (IMHO it's mostly better) there is strict financial regulation in Australia (mostly due to the Corporations Act revamp under the Howard government as well as the longstanding Trade Practices Act, which is one of the most consumer-friendly pieces of legislation I think in the world).
I'd be interested in knowing the story and how high compliance costs are for something like this.
2. It was done (based on comments here) at least in part in Perth. Perth is my home town and has become increasingly tech unfriendly for three reasons:
- a lot of the bigger employers got bought out and consolidated their software development over East;
- the state as a whole is very focused on digging stuff up from the ground (or under the sea to be pedantic) and selling it to the Chinese. The startup scene is tiny; and
- cost of living in Perth is terrible in wage-adjusted terms. Honestly it's cheaper for me to live in New York (I moved here about 2.5 years ago to start a job with Google). Housing is a huge part of it but food, utilities and, well, everything is expensive in Perth now.
I'd certainly like to here more about the development story and the team (the site is scant on details on this).
As for the service itself, I'll echo the comments of others and say the FX and other fees coule make this quite expensive.
Still, good to see this coming out of Australia and good luck guys. I'm also glad to hear about more tech things happening in Perth. I might have to check out the meetups and stuff next time I visit.