Lulu: An App No One Should Accept(compylr.com)
compylr.com
Lulu: An App No One Should Accept
http://www.compylr.com/post/lulu-an-app-no-one-should-accept
355 comments
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There were a lot of websites like this (anonymous gossip) when I was in college that would come up, get really popular and then someone would get a lot of flack, be emotionally traumatized, and the universities would petition for a take down. All it will take is one suicide to tear this app down.
oh, is that all it will take? human lives are so cheap today. I suppose we should just count the minutes then.
This a fantastic idea. We should encourage Lulu to give away free t-shirts, so that men know who to avoid dating :)
isn't lulu a self-publishing service?
I can't help feeling that the people who use such an app to date and rate deserve each other.
The issue is men don't use the app. I downloaded it on my SO's phone and was able to find most of the college age guys I know on it. None of them knew they were on there.
Men generally do not need this kind of application to judge if they desire or not a particular woman.
Have each of them demand a dump of their reviews from the service, as they're entitled to under EU data protection directive. If there's anything libellous in there, try to get a newspaper interested. The Daily Mail is probably a good choice for this mixture of sex and scandal.
The issue is men don't use the app.
I think the issue is men can't use the app.
I think the issue is men can't use the app.
Really. How the hell do they check that the user is a man? Facial recognition?
No idea. You have to install the app on your phone, so it can read your phone's accounts. I think a Google account is required on an Android phone. Google accounts have gender in their profile (remember the G+ fiasco?). You also have to link it to Facebook, so it has access to your Facebook data as well. Maybe they don't like new Facebook accounts with zero activity, but certainly there is a usecase for women who want to use this app, but don't want to use Facebook (I would think there is a usecase for women who don't have smartphones as well). Not sure about the iPhone flow.
This thought exercise is really making me scared about how much the owners of the apps on my phone know about me!
This thought exercise is really making me scared about how much the owners of the apps on my phone know about me!
Precisely my feelings. #UsesLulu would be all I would've wanted to know about someone to realize it wouldn't work out. Similar to girls who drive SUVs and support Drill-Baby-Drill. Big red flags.
I don't think it's a dating service. I think it's like an anonymous 'man review' site. You might be on there ...
If girl is so naive to believe that the competition is going to disclose trusworthy information, indeed, she deserves what she finds.
Write a polar opposite. Push it through the same channels. If someone has it taken down, cry "sexism!" and demand the same for "Lulu" (an idiotic name, anyway).
UPDATE: Or perhaps not. After looking at the web site, it seems that this service, and a bad review of my person, is precisely the thing to repel exactly the kind of women I've never wanted to have anything common with.
UPDATE: Or perhaps not. After looking at the web site, it seems that this service, and a bad review of my person, is precisely the thing to repel exactly the kind of women I've never wanted to have anything common with.
Perhaps it's named after the equally high quality Metallica album
If nothing else, there is already a publishing service with the same name. If I were running it, I'd seriously consider some legal steps. This smells of potential defamation by association.
"I've published my book on Lulu.com."
"Oh, is that the horrible sexist girl gossip website?"
"I didn't know they were running it. I'll tell my friends to stop buying their books from there."
"I've published my book on Lulu.com."
"Oh, is that the horrible sexist girl gossip website?"
"I didn't know they were running it. I'll tell my friends to stop buying their books from there."
Would it be possible to sign up, scrape all the data then publish it anonymously?
Well, there's an android version. Someone just needs to hack at it with a Java decompiler and find the internal API calls.
I can't imagine they would get away with this in the EU. One data protection request and subsequent slander case would destroy them in an instant.
I find the whole idea objectionable at every level and about as innovative as "rate my poo".
I find the whole idea objectionable at every level and about as innovative as "rate my poo".
Lets not act as though this is in anyway revolutionary, people have bitched behind other peoples backs for as long as there have been people.
Bitterness, anger and jealousy are unfortunately some of the strongest traits we humans have, especially when it comes to our interactions with one another, this application, while on the surface immoral, is simply providing a means for this to happen online.
I don't in anyway agree with this application or the practices it supports and the tags come across as misandric but people will be people, if they don't bitch here it will be on more public venues, such as Facebook or Twitter, at least here I don't have to see the self absorbed whinging simply by virtue of never visiting the app.
That aside, I hope the creators provide some means of men removing themselves from the website or there could very soon be some kind of law suit coming there way, regardless of their contrived TOS.
Bitterness, anger and jealousy are unfortunately some of the strongest traits we humans have, especially when it comes to our interactions with one another, this application, while on the surface immoral, is simply providing a means for this to happen online.
I don't in anyway agree with this application or the practices it supports and the tags come across as misandric but people will be people, if they don't bitch here it will be on more public venues, such as Facebook or Twitter, at least here I don't have to see the self absorbed whinging simply by virtue of never visiting the app.
That aside, I hope the creators provide some means of men removing themselves from the website or there could very soon be some kind of law suit coming there way, regardless of their contrived TOS.
I think there is a difference between people bitching in private, and it being something publicly searchable by people who just met you. One bad date and suddenly you have a reputation that follows you forever? (Assuming people used this app of course)
Oh, definitely, that's why I added the last paragraph.
That being said, I would find it a good indicator, if the person you were dating took notice of this drivel, they are probably the kind of person you don't want to be dating anyway.
I think the biggest issue is the complete anonymity which is inherently given online, even if it asked for identities, these can easily be faked.
What is to stop a jealous co-worker or an annoyed sister, or even a drunk friend from tarnishing your public image online by saying you treat them badly, or even worse, raped them, over an application like this?
That being said, I would find it a good indicator, if the person you were dating took notice of this drivel, they are probably the kind of person you don't want to be dating anyway.
I think the biggest issue is the complete anonymity which is inherently given online, even if it asked for identities, these can easily be faked.
What is to stop a jealous co-worker or an annoyed sister, or even a drunk friend from tarnishing your public image online by saying you treat them badly, or even worse, raped them, over an application like this?
Or another man. Men could use this to slander their competition.
The unfortunate part of all of this is it could potentially perpetuate the negativs this has on relationship building, and on society as a whole. If people were on there to verify information or maybe even offer counseling of sorts to help people get through resentment, anger, jealousy, etc. then it'd be helpful - but I don't imagine anyone would use that app for that. I wonder even if any of my female friends would come forward to say contrary to what the herd is saying for fear of being ridiculed, etc..
This feels like someone wants to rerun the AutoAdmit fiasco [1], only this time there are investors involved.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoAdmit#Criticism_and_controv...
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoAdmit#Criticism_and_controv...
I think it's hilarious and a brilliant idea. Everyone knows that dating is a lemons market, what's wrong with trying to fix it? And presumably you can rate things how you want... so if people want to put #Big.Feet or #AlwaysPays, that's their choice.
In recent times I've gotten the impression that their is a double standard going on regarding certain (not all) services and events that are only targeted to women.
If this had been an app for men rating and alerting them about certain women all hell would of broke loose.
If this had been an app for men rating and alerting them about certain women all hell would of broke loose.
The problem in this case is that in the same way women are most often the recipients of sexual discrimination, men are most often the recipient of being decried as sexual discriminators.
It's so easy to look down on someone identifying as male as being discriminant but when the opposite is true, the male point of view is often ignored.
Simply put, we are expected to man up, whereas women are expected to stand up.
It's so easy to look down on someone identifying as male as being discriminant but when the opposite is true, the male point of view is often ignored.
Simply put, we are expected to man up, whereas women are expected to stand up.
I don't think it's quite as dramatic as you say. But personally I'm ok with it.
Men have been getting the good end of sexual discrimination for centuries. Owning property. Voting. Higher education. Being allowed to practice a profession. Being favored by marriage laws. Being favored by social biases.
Like Peter Parker and Voltaire say, "With great power comes great responsibility." Having received a substantial boost just for being born with a dick, I'm ok with manning up. To me, that's part of using my power to redress the imbalance.
Men have been getting the good end of sexual discrimination for centuries. Owning property. Voting. Higher education. Being allowed to practice a profession. Being favored by marriage laws. Being favored by social biases.
Like Peter Parker and Voltaire say, "With great power comes great responsibility." Having received a substantial boost just for being born with a dick, I'm ok with manning up. To me, that's part of using my power to redress the imbalance.
>Men have been getting the good end of sexual discrimination for centuries.
Not really. Men have had more freedom but less security. Just because you personally like your gender role (as it seems), that doesn't mean other men agree (or agreed in the past). Sure, men were allowed to be employees and women cared for the children at home (though reality was actually a lot more complex than that, but we can accept this caricature for now), but men had to work or they wouldn't find a women to marry. Women didn't have to work, as they could be supported by their husband. Work was pretty gruesome in the past, even if homework was also harder in the past.
Of course, there's little proper scientific research on this subject, as "women's studies" start from their assumption that women had and have everything worse without really proving it.
The problem with saying that the men's gender role of more freedom but more responsibility doesn't take into consideration that some people prefer to have less freedom and less responsibility, while some women prefer to have more freedom and more responsibility and some less freedom and less responsibility (or at least prefered in the past).
>Having received a substantial boost just for being born with a dick, I'm ok with manning up.
Even if we assume that men had better starting position in the past, that doesn't apply anymore. Young women are outearning and have more success in education.
True equality can only be reached through the abolition of gender roles for both men and women, not assuming that men need to "man up" and therefore saying that gender inequality is somehow positive and should exist.
You also made the claim about "imbalance". There's no imbalance in favor of women in Western countries. Men have just as much gender equality problems as women, but even speculating this is politically incorrect. Here's a study o the subject: http://granum.uta.fi/granum/kirjanTiedot.php?tuote_id=18450
Not really. Men have had more freedom but less security. Just because you personally like your gender role (as it seems), that doesn't mean other men agree (or agreed in the past). Sure, men were allowed to be employees and women cared for the children at home (though reality was actually a lot more complex than that, but we can accept this caricature for now), but men had to work or they wouldn't find a women to marry. Women didn't have to work, as they could be supported by their husband. Work was pretty gruesome in the past, even if homework was also harder in the past.
Of course, there's little proper scientific research on this subject, as "women's studies" start from their assumption that women had and have everything worse without really proving it.
The problem with saying that the men's gender role of more freedom but more responsibility doesn't take into consideration that some people prefer to have less freedom and less responsibility, while some women prefer to have more freedom and more responsibility and some less freedom and less responsibility (or at least prefered in the past).
>Having received a substantial boost just for being born with a dick, I'm ok with manning up.
Even if we assume that men had better starting position in the past, that doesn't apply anymore. Young women are outearning and have more success in education.
True equality can only be reached through the abolition of gender roles for both men and women, not assuming that men need to "man up" and therefore saying that gender inequality is somehow positive and should exist.
You also made the claim about "imbalance". There's no imbalance in favor of women in Western countries. Men have just as much gender equality problems as women, but even speculating this is politically incorrect. Here's a study o the subject: http://granum.uta.fi/granum/kirjanTiedot.php?tuote_id=18450
You've made a lot of soup out of a small amount of meat. Some quick replies to clear up misunderstandings:
I agree that patriarchy is bad for men too. I disagree that it was equally bad for both genders. I disagree that we have reached balance. By "manning up", I don't mean reinforcing gender roles or maintaining gender inequality. I mean that men should, as the relatively privileged parties, not be whiny at either the shift toward balance or the small anti-male inequities that crop up temporarily along the road to equity.
I agree that patriarchy is bad for men too. I disagree that it was equally bad for both genders. I disagree that we have reached balance. By "manning up", I don't mean reinforcing gender roles or maintaining gender inequality. I mean that men should, as the relatively privileged parties, not be whiny at either the shift toward balance or the small anti-male inequities that crop up temporarily along the road to equity.
>...men should, as the relatively privileged parties, not be whiny at either the shift toward balance or the small anti-male inequities that crop up temporarily along the road to equity.
Translated from feminist rhetoric: Men have no right to complain about discrimination against them.
shanelja and nawitus, I think abundance of people with similar views to wpietri highlights how real your points actually are.
Translated from feminist rhetoric: Men have no right to complain about discrimination against them.
shanelja and nawitus, I think abundance of people with similar views to wpietri highlights how real your points actually are.
I think everybody has a right to complain. E.g., the recent rich people complaining that their tax rates might become almost as high as their secretaries? They're totally within their legal right to complain.
But I have the legal right to say that they're whiny idiots when they appear unable to notice or acknowledge the context of their complaint. If you're going to cry, "have sympathy for meeeeeee", you really should make sure you've demonstrated some sympathy for others.
But I have the legal right to say that they're whiny idiots when they appear unable to notice or acknowledge the context of their complaint. If you're going to cry, "have sympathy for meeeeeee", you really should make sure you've demonstrated some sympathy for others.
I hope you realize the irony in your last sentence.
I don't see why past & present inequality justify anything and everything that is bad for men/whites/whatever. Don't you see a difference between e.g. hiring policies that specifically advantage women and objecting to services that are potentially vicious and hurtful specifically to men? (I'm not convinced lulu is the latter, but assume for the moment it is).
I don't think one inequality justifies another.
I do think that to a privileged person, any move toward equality feels like inequality, because what they notice is things getting worse for them.
I also think that people emerging from oppression are liable to cross the line of exact equity from time to time. An as long as the swings are small, I'm ok with that. Specifically, as a guy, I'm saying I don't mind brushing off something that might be a bit of anti-guy sexism. Because that one small nettle-sting is nothing in proportion to the benefits I've received, or to the scope of the historical wrong that we are righting.
I don't know enough about Lulu to have an opinion on it. And for the record, I'm opposed to hiring practices that advantage women. I am strongly for, though, active practices to eliminate the disadvantage that women face.
I do think that to a privileged person, any move toward equality feels like inequality, because what they notice is things getting worse for them.
I also think that people emerging from oppression are liable to cross the line of exact equity from time to time. An as long as the swings are small, I'm ok with that. Specifically, as a guy, I'm saying I don't mind brushing off something that might be a bit of anti-guy sexism. Because that one small nettle-sting is nothing in proportion to the benefits I've received, or to the scope of the historical wrong that we are righting.
I don't know enough about Lulu to have an opinion on it. And for the record, I'm opposed to hiring practices that advantage women. I am strongly for, though, active practices to eliminate the disadvantage that women face.
You're enforcing the stereotypical gender role of men: "Don't whine, that's unmanly, don't complain, deal with your own problems". That's pretty offending to me.
I want people to treat other people as individuals, not representative of their gender. I don't care about my own gender role. I don't want people to say "man up" to men if I face some injustice. And I don't want (the reverse I guess) it happen to women either.
Your path doesn't lead to equality, it just slows down progress.
I want people to treat other people as individuals, not representative of their gender. I don't care about my own gender role. I don't want people to say "man up" to men if I face some injustice. And I don't want (the reverse I guess) it happen to women either.
Your path doesn't lead to equality, it just slows down progress.
I was echoing the words of the comment I was responding to. As I already explained to you, I am in favor of gender equality. Your high drama here comes across to me as concern trolling, especially given the other things you have posted.
Not getting upset at inequalities means accepting them. This is the road to not getting rid of them.
Not at all. I forgive people their errors all the time without accepting them as good or normal.
For example, if somebody is tired and cranky and says something mean, I don't have to get upset at it. I can let it go, and treat them compassionately. I think that is precisely the road to getting rid of meanness.
For example, if somebody is tired and cranky and says something mean, I don't have to get upset at it. I can let it go, and treat them compassionately. I think that is precisely the road to getting rid of meanness.
> Men have had more freedom but less security.
This isn't true no matter how you slice it. Men had more economic security because they could work, whereas most women could not. Men have bodily security in ways women do not, esp. in regards to sexual assault and domestic violence.
> men had to work or they wouldn't find a women to marry
I think you have this backwards. Men didn't have to marry. However, since women at large could not work and support themselves, many had no choice but to be attached to someone who could work. Due to past stigmas about women were not married, this put women in a position where getting married was a near necessity.
> Women didn't have to work, as they could be supported by their husband.
Not only would women have little recourse but to marry someone, but women by far were expected to should domestic duties. That is a lot of work and is a full time job in and of itself.
> Of course, there's little proper scientific research on this subject, as "women's studies" start from their assumption that women had and have everything worse without really proving it.
This is blatantly not true. There is a ton of written and academic research work on gender, sexism, etc. and women's studies is a real academic discipline.
> The problem with saying that the men's gender role of more freedom but more responsibility doesn't take into consideration that some people prefer to have less freedom and less responsibility, while some women prefer to have more freedom and more responsibility and some less freedom and less responsibility (or at least prefered in the past).
Men are much more able to pursue the less freedom and less responsibility life, as you put it, compared to women because of how they are treated in society at large. Historically most women did not have the option for the less freedom and less responsible life since they would either be pigeonholed into domestic care or they would have been working poor.
> Even if we assume that men had better starting position in the past, that doesn't apply anymore. Young women are outearning and have more success in education.
This is plainly not true. Most women still earn less than their male counterparts. Further, women still suffer far more from domestic and sexual violence and have their bodies policed much more than men.
> True equality can only be reached through the abolition of gender roles for both men and women, not assuming that men need to "man up" and therefore saying that gender inequality is somehow positive and should exist.
Gender inequality exists right now, even without something like Lulu, and will continue to exist for the foreseeable future. Having an app that deals with one aspect of that reality is totally legit.
> You also made the claim about "imbalance". There's no imbalance in favor of women in Western countries.
Amazingly you say that there is no real research on women's studies, but then go on to conclude there is not problem at all.
> Men have just as much gender equality problems as women, but even speculating this is politically incorrect.
Ah yes, saying men have it as hard as women, which is demonstrably not true at a societal level, will summon the PC police.
> Here's a study o the subject: http://granum.uta.fi/granum/kirjanTiedot.php?tuote_id=18450
The summary of that study tries to use misandry and matriarchy seriously to describe the social and political condition of a western country. This is laughable on its face.
This isn't true no matter how you slice it. Men had more economic security because they could work, whereas most women could not. Men have bodily security in ways women do not, esp. in regards to sexual assault and domestic violence.
> men had to work or they wouldn't find a women to marry
I think you have this backwards. Men didn't have to marry. However, since women at large could not work and support themselves, many had no choice but to be attached to someone who could work. Due to past stigmas about women were not married, this put women in a position where getting married was a near necessity.
> Women didn't have to work, as they could be supported by their husband.
Not only would women have little recourse but to marry someone, but women by far were expected to should domestic duties. That is a lot of work and is a full time job in and of itself.
> Of course, there's little proper scientific research on this subject, as "women's studies" start from their assumption that women had and have everything worse without really proving it.
This is blatantly not true. There is a ton of written and academic research work on gender, sexism, etc. and women's studies is a real academic discipline.
> The problem with saying that the men's gender role of more freedom but more responsibility doesn't take into consideration that some people prefer to have less freedom and less responsibility, while some women prefer to have more freedom and more responsibility and some less freedom and less responsibility (or at least prefered in the past).
Men are much more able to pursue the less freedom and less responsibility life, as you put it, compared to women because of how they are treated in society at large. Historically most women did not have the option for the less freedom and less responsible life since they would either be pigeonholed into domestic care or they would have been working poor.
> Even if we assume that men had better starting position in the past, that doesn't apply anymore. Young women are outearning and have more success in education.
This is plainly not true. Most women still earn less than their male counterparts. Further, women still suffer far more from domestic and sexual violence and have their bodies policed much more than men.
> True equality can only be reached through the abolition of gender roles for both men and women, not assuming that men need to "man up" and therefore saying that gender inequality is somehow positive and should exist.
Gender inequality exists right now, even without something like Lulu, and will continue to exist for the foreseeable future. Having an app that deals with one aspect of that reality is totally legit.
> You also made the claim about "imbalance". There's no imbalance in favor of women in Western countries.
Amazingly you say that there is no real research on women's studies, but then go on to conclude there is not problem at all.
> Men have just as much gender equality problems as women, but even speculating this is politically incorrect.
Ah yes, saying men have it as hard as women, which is demonstrably not true at a societal level, will summon the PC police.
> Here's a study o the subject: http://granum.uta.fi/granum/kirjanTiedot.php?tuote_id=18450
The summary of that study tries to use misandry and matriarchy seriously to describe the social and political condition of a western country. This is laughable on its face.
>This isn't true no matter how you slice it. Men had more economic security because they could work, whereas most women could not. Men have bodily security in ways women do not, esp. in regards to sexual assault and domestic violence.
In a marriage the women of course benefits from the man's income to provide economic security. They've also had the security of not dying in senseless wars, and the security of men defending women from danger as is the gender norm even today.
>I think you have this backwards. Men didn't have to marry. However, since women at large could not work and support themselves, many had no choice but to be attached to someone who could work. Due to past stigmas about women were not married, this put women in a position where getting married was a near necessity.
I never claimed that men had to marry, though most of them wanted to (to gain access to sex if nothing else). Men didn't have the option to not work and marry, while had to work to marry, and women didn't have the option to work and not marry.
>Not only would women have little recourse but to marry someone, but women by far were expected to should domestic duties. That is a lot of work and is a full time job in and of itself.
I'd say domestic duties were significantly easier than the typical hard work in the past. Workplace safety was non-existent, for starters. That's of course in addition to military duty and dying in wars.
>This is blatantly not true. There is a ton of written and academic research work on gender, sexism, etc. and women's studies is a real academic discipline.
Women's studies is not an empirical science, if they start from an axiom which doesn't require evidence.
>Men are much more able to pursue the less freedom and less responsibility life, as you put it, compared to women because of how they are treated in society at large. Historically most women did not have the option for the less freedom and less responsible life since they would either be pigeonholed into domestic care or they would have been working poor.
That's of course blatantly not true. Men who didn't work were deemed pretty worthless, and no women would marry them. Besides, they would starve on streets or something, while a women could marry someone and not need to work.
>This is plainly not true. Most women still earn less than their male counterparts.
I said young women. Please try reading what I'm actually saying :). As for the whole pay gap, it's explained through men working 20% more hours per year and making career choices that focus on income.
>Further, women still suffer far more from domestic and sexual violence and have their bodies policed much more than men.
No, men are mutilated more than women (since male-only circumcision is legal in most countries). Also, majority of rape victims in USA are male: http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-a...
>Gender inequality exists right now, even without something like Lulu, and will continue to exist for the foreseeable future. Having an app that deals with one aspect of that reality is totally legit.
What? This app doesn't prevent gender equality, it enforces it, along with stereotypical gender roles that discriminate both men and women equally. Only a misandrist can support this kind of app.
>Amazingly you say that there is no real research on women's studies, but then go on to conclude there is not problem at all.
Just because women's studies are based on non-empirical "science" doesn't mean there's no research on the subject. Like this: http://granum.uta.fi/granum/kirjanTiedot.php?tuote_id=18450
>Ah yes, saying men have it as hard as women, which is demonstrably not true at a societal level, will summon the PC police.
Good that you agree with me!
>The summary of that study tries to use misandry and matriarchy seriously to describe the social and political condition of a western country. This is laughable on its face.
Not an argument :).
In a marriage the women of course benefits from the man's income to provide economic security. They've also had the security of not dying in senseless wars, and the security of men defending women from danger as is the gender norm even today.
>I think you have this backwards. Men didn't have to marry. However, since women at large could not work and support themselves, many had no choice but to be attached to someone who could work. Due to past stigmas about women were not married, this put women in a position where getting married was a near necessity.
I never claimed that men had to marry, though most of them wanted to (to gain access to sex if nothing else). Men didn't have the option to not work and marry, while had to work to marry, and women didn't have the option to work and not marry.
>Not only would women have little recourse but to marry someone, but women by far were expected to should domestic duties. That is a lot of work and is a full time job in and of itself.
I'd say domestic duties were significantly easier than the typical hard work in the past. Workplace safety was non-existent, for starters. That's of course in addition to military duty and dying in wars.
>This is blatantly not true. There is a ton of written and academic research work on gender, sexism, etc. and women's studies is a real academic discipline.
Women's studies is not an empirical science, if they start from an axiom which doesn't require evidence.
>Men are much more able to pursue the less freedom and less responsibility life, as you put it, compared to women because of how they are treated in society at large. Historically most women did not have the option for the less freedom and less responsible life since they would either be pigeonholed into domestic care or they would have been working poor.
That's of course blatantly not true. Men who didn't work were deemed pretty worthless, and no women would marry them. Besides, they would starve on streets or something, while a women could marry someone and not need to work.
>This is plainly not true. Most women still earn less than their male counterparts.
I said young women. Please try reading what I'm actually saying :). As for the whole pay gap, it's explained through men working 20% more hours per year and making career choices that focus on income.
>Further, women still suffer far more from domestic and sexual violence and have their bodies policed much more than men.
No, men are mutilated more than women (since male-only circumcision is legal in most countries). Also, majority of rape victims in USA are male: http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-a...
>Gender inequality exists right now, even without something like Lulu, and will continue to exist for the foreseeable future. Having an app that deals with one aspect of that reality is totally legit.
What? This app doesn't prevent gender equality, it enforces it, along with stereotypical gender roles that discriminate both men and women equally. Only a misandrist can support this kind of app.
>Amazingly you say that there is no real research on women's studies, but then go on to conclude there is not problem at all.
Just because women's studies are based on non-empirical "science" doesn't mean there's no research on the subject. Like this: http://granum.uta.fi/granum/kirjanTiedot.php?tuote_id=18450
>Ah yes, saying men have it as hard as women, which is demonstrably not true at a societal level, will summon the PC police.
Good that you agree with me!
>The summary of that study tries to use misandry and matriarchy seriously to describe the social and political condition of a western country. This is laughable on its face.
Not an argument :).
> In a marriage the women of course benefits from the man's income to provide economic security. They've also had the security of not dying in senseless wars, and the security of men defending women from danger as is the gender norm even today.
Certainly there is a benefit to having some income through a marriage than none at all, but it is a problem if marriage or association with men is the only option available to have any economic safety at all. Women do not fare well in war because women are very often the target of violence from armies and military conflict even if women do not serve in those conflicts. Men defending women from danger isn't a real phenomenon, as violence against women is predominantly perpetrated by men. Common stories about women and lifeboats, for example, may not reflect reality: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/04/13/chivalry-at-sea-a-myth...
> Men didn't have the option to not work and marry, while had to work to marry, and women didn't have the option to work and not marry.
My main point about this is that there it was much more likely for women to have no economic security without marriage, whereas men could achieve some economic security without a marriage. Obviously there is a big class element to this w.r.t work access and pay and that women of color have always been working in large numbers outside of personal domestic work.
> I'd say domestic duties were significantly easier than the typical hard work in the past.
It isn't about quantifying the difficulty of some kind of work, but that women still were very like to perform labor in home even if they worked outside of the home in some capacity. Either way, the notion that women didn't do work in a marriage while their husband did contributes to the perspective that domestic work isn't real work and that domestic work performed by husbands/wives at home doesn't have the same value as paid labor.
> Women's studies is not an empirical science, if they start from an axiom which doesn't require evidence.
Women's studies doesn't start from an axiom of "that women had and have everything worse". Women's studies generally explores the condition of genders and provides research, including statistical and empirical research, about the lived conditions and experiences of people.
> Men who didn't work were deemed pretty worthless, and no women would marry them. Besides, they would starve on streets or something, while a women could marry someone and not need to work.
First, work isn't something that most people have for their lifetime in perpetuity. Many folks go through periods of having work and not having work and social factors may exacerbate the availability of paid work. The era leading up to prohibition in the US, for example, made the working situation for the poor worse and damaged existing marriages and families, so to say that there is some kind of binary decision making process in who gets married to whom is silly. Also, the notion that women could marry and not work isn't a common reality for most marriages, in the past and now.
> I said young women. Please try reading what I'm actually saying :). As for the whole pay gap, it's explained through men working 20% more hours per year and making career choices that focus on income.
The pay gap is a complicated thing, and while incomes have improved for younger working women, executive level pay and representation is still belong men in similar positions and companies. Working patterns like the one you mention don't fully account for wage and position gaps for women.
> No, men are mutilated more than women (since male-only circumcision is legal in most countries). Also, majority of rape victims in USA are male: http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-a....
Firstly, male circumcision isn't a form of domestic or sexual violence, so while it is an important thing it is not really what I was getting at. Second, yes most rape victims in the US are male due to how many men, mostly of color, are imprisoned and how prevalent sexual assault in the prison system is. That reality and sexual assault for women go hand-in-hand reflect a real reality of male violence made manifest through social institutions and beliefs. Women in prison also suffer from high rates of sexual assault and coercion. The number of men in prison is much, much higher than the number of women in prison, so we would expect that by raw number men are victims of sexual assault more than women in prison. That said, none of these things negate the nature of sexual violence towards women.
> What? This app doesn't prevent gender equality, it enforces it, along with stereotypical gender roles that discriminate both men and women equally. Only a misandrist can support this kind of app.
I might not have been clear, but I meant to say an app that can help women label men as violent or misogynistic is legit even if that kind of app amounts to collecting rumors, because women are much more likely to face domestic or sexual violence from an intimate partner and people have a right to know about someone before they expose themselves to that kind of violence. I don't particularly care for lulu, but rumors are a legitimate defense when social systems do not protect you from violence.
> Good that you agree with me!
I was being sarcastic. Calling something or someone PC is a derailment to avoid thinking critically about what you said and why it might be a shitty thing to say.
> Not an argument :).
As tumblr ppl like to say, misandry don't real: http://bunnika.wordpress.com/2011/07/09/sorry-men-you-are-no...
That said, a single study that attempts to take issues of patriarchy and misogyny and turn them on their head to make them about misandry, a thing that doesn't exist as a social institution in the western world, should be treated with a high amount of skepticism.
Certainly there is a benefit to having some income through a marriage than none at all, but it is a problem if marriage or association with men is the only option available to have any economic safety at all. Women do not fare well in war because women are very often the target of violence from armies and military conflict even if women do not serve in those conflicts. Men defending women from danger isn't a real phenomenon, as violence against women is predominantly perpetrated by men. Common stories about women and lifeboats, for example, may not reflect reality: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/04/13/chivalry-at-sea-a-myth...
> Men didn't have the option to not work and marry, while had to work to marry, and women didn't have the option to work and not marry.
My main point about this is that there it was much more likely for women to have no economic security without marriage, whereas men could achieve some economic security without a marriage. Obviously there is a big class element to this w.r.t work access and pay and that women of color have always been working in large numbers outside of personal domestic work.
> I'd say domestic duties were significantly easier than the typical hard work in the past.
It isn't about quantifying the difficulty of some kind of work, but that women still were very like to perform labor in home even if they worked outside of the home in some capacity. Either way, the notion that women didn't do work in a marriage while their husband did contributes to the perspective that domestic work isn't real work and that domestic work performed by husbands/wives at home doesn't have the same value as paid labor.
> Women's studies is not an empirical science, if they start from an axiom which doesn't require evidence.
Women's studies doesn't start from an axiom of "that women had and have everything worse". Women's studies generally explores the condition of genders and provides research, including statistical and empirical research, about the lived conditions and experiences of people.
> Men who didn't work were deemed pretty worthless, and no women would marry them. Besides, they would starve on streets or something, while a women could marry someone and not need to work.
First, work isn't something that most people have for their lifetime in perpetuity. Many folks go through periods of having work and not having work and social factors may exacerbate the availability of paid work. The era leading up to prohibition in the US, for example, made the working situation for the poor worse and damaged existing marriages and families, so to say that there is some kind of binary decision making process in who gets married to whom is silly. Also, the notion that women could marry and not work isn't a common reality for most marriages, in the past and now.
> I said young women. Please try reading what I'm actually saying :). As for the whole pay gap, it's explained through men working 20% more hours per year and making career choices that focus on income.
The pay gap is a complicated thing, and while incomes have improved for younger working women, executive level pay and representation is still belong men in similar positions and companies. Working patterns like the one you mention don't fully account for wage and position gaps for women.
> No, men are mutilated more than women (since male-only circumcision is legal in most countries). Also, majority of rape victims in USA are male: http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-a....
Firstly, male circumcision isn't a form of domestic or sexual violence, so while it is an important thing it is not really what I was getting at. Second, yes most rape victims in the US are male due to how many men, mostly of color, are imprisoned and how prevalent sexual assault in the prison system is. That reality and sexual assault for women go hand-in-hand reflect a real reality of male violence made manifest through social institutions and beliefs. Women in prison also suffer from high rates of sexual assault and coercion. The number of men in prison is much, much higher than the number of women in prison, so we would expect that by raw number men are victims of sexual assault more than women in prison. That said, none of these things negate the nature of sexual violence towards women.
> What? This app doesn't prevent gender equality, it enforces it, along with stereotypical gender roles that discriminate both men and women equally. Only a misandrist can support this kind of app.
I might not have been clear, but I meant to say an app that can help women label men as violent or misogynistic is legit even if that kind of app amounts to collecting rumors, because women are much more likely to face domestic or sexual violence from an intimate partner and people have a right to know about someone before they expose themselves to that kind of violence. I don't particularly care for lulu, but rumors are a legitimate defense when social systems do not protect you from violence.
> Good that you agree with me!
I was being sarcastic. Calling something or someone PC is a derailment to avoid thinking critically about what you said and why it might be a shitty thing to say.
> Not an argument :).
As tumblr ppl like to say, misandry don't real: http://bunnika.wordpress.com/2011/07/09/sorry-men-you-are-no...
That said, a single study that attempts to take issues of patriarchy and misogyny and turn them on their head to make them about misandry, a thing that doesn't exist as a social institution in the western world, should be treated with a high amount of skepticism.
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>This isn't true no matter how you slice it
Yes, it is. Your views on historic gender roles do not reflect reality. Men were restricted by gender roles too, and their role was largely "go risk death to get a chance to provide for a woman and children".
http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm
Yes, it is. Your views on historic gender roles do not reflect reality. Men were restricted by gender roles too, and their role was largely "go risk death to get a chance to provide for a woman and children".
http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm
We must have grown up in drastically different times then - I'm barely 20 and for the majority of my life I have been taught that boys are smelly and girls are sweet, boys do the dirty jobs and that men are dangerous and shouldn't be left alone with women.
Sure, men have had the upper hand for centuries but we live in an age where the scales have tipped - we need to be careful that instead of having a substantial boost for having a dick, or a vagina, that instead every has the same substantial advantage.
Sure, men have had the upper hand for centuries but we live in an age where the scales have tipped - we need to be careful that instead of having a substantial boost for having a dick, or a vagina, that instead every has the same substantial advantage.
Barely 20 is pretty young, I suspect as you get older you will notice more and more ways men still have societal advantages. Around 20 most of your life you've spent in school, where if you're in a relatively progressive environment your teachers and administrators have made a point to put students of both genders on equal footing.
The problem (at least here) is that they don't. Boys are usually given harsher sentences for same misbehavior as girls. Also, there is more boys dropping out than girls. Girls tend to grade higher than boys as well.
Unemployment of young folk (<30) is more prevalent in men than women.
I don't want to take anything from the women's struggle, but more and more, they are getting the upper hand. (Heck, my boy is 11 months old, and even now, he gets more 'insults' about behavior then his female cousin about same age)
Unemployment of young folk (<30) is more prevalent in men than women.
I don't want to take anything from the women's struggle, but more and more, they are getting the upper hand. (Heck, my boy is 11 months old, and even now, he gets more 'insults' about behavior then his female cousin about same age)
Men have had the upper hand since the dawn of existence and still have the upper hand in basically every society in the world.
Nope, men have the upper hand and lower hand, and if you take the average out of that then women are men are equal at least in all Western nations. Even though 60-80% of politicians may be male, that's contrasted with 80% of homeless people being male, 80% of suicides made by men.
If we look at young people, then women clearly have the uppder hand. In addition to having the upper hand in dating, they out-earn young men and have greater success in education. Interestingly, if women are better than men at something, then the explanation is never discrimination, but if men are better than women, then the reason is discrimination.
If we look at young people, then women clearly have the uppder hand. In addition to having the upper hand in dating, they out-earn young men and have greater success in education. Interestingly, if women are better than men at something, then the explanation is never discrimination, but if men are better than women, then the reason is discrimination.
You're right about some of this, although you're overstating the case: about 44% of the homeless in the United States are single men; families with children are about 36% and single women are only 13%. (Figures for Europe are certainly different as they offer different social services, especially for families.) Greater male service in the military is one component of this, as in the US veterans make up 16% of the homeless, as opposed to 10% of the general population.
I'm one of those overeducated women with the upper hand or something like that, although due to my great success in education I'm not out-earning all that many people yet. Remember, though, that the mythical ability to get a guy to pay for dinner and that incredible math PhD mean nothing when a guy on the street is looking me up & down & giving me a "compliment." If I talk back to that crazy guy on the bus, even if I'm out-earning and out-educating him, I always remember it can go like this: http://unwinona.tumblr.com/post/30861660109/i-debated-whethe...
To return to the original topic, I don't support Lulu at all. I've had far better success in dating and life treating men like people.
I'm one of those overeducated women with the upper hand or something like that, although due to my great success in education I'm not out-earning all that many people yet. Remember, though, that the mythical ability to get a guy to pay for dinner and that incredible math PhD mean nothing when a guy on the street is looking me up & down & giving me a "compliment." If I talk back to that crazy guy on the bus, even if I'm out-earning and out-educating him, I always remember it can go like this: http://unwinona.tumblr.com/post/30861660109/i-debated-whethe...
To return to the original topic, I don't support Lulu at all. I've had far better success in dating and life treating men like people.
>(Figures for Europe are certainly different as they offer different social services, especially for families.)
Yeah, I used statistics from my own country.
>Greater male service in the military is one component of this
Funny anecdote, here in Finland men still have conscription (e.g. forced labour for 6-12 months), but almost nobody talks about that as a gender equality issue.
>I'm one of those overeducated women with the upper hand or something like that, although due to my great success in education I'm not out-earning all that many people yet.
Education of course doesn't directly lead to higher earnings, as you need to choose the right industry and career path. Of course, I don't know anything about you in particular, but most well-off people underestimate the earnings of otherpeople. (I don't know the exact statistic, but the top 10% think that they're only slightly better off than the average or something).
Anyway, men earn more than women because they work longer hours (about 20% more in average). The other explanation is that men choose careers that have higher income (e.g. according to research for men income matters a lot more in career choise than for women).
>Remember, though, that the mythical ability to get a guy to pay for dinner and that incredible math PhD mean nothing when a guy on the street is looking me up & down & giving me a "compliment."
Err, men have to deal with crazy people on the bus too. In fact, vast majority of street violence is against men (it's around 80% in my country).
Yeah, I used statistics from my own country.
>Greater male service in the military is one component of this
Funny anecdote, here in Finland men still have conscription (e.g. forced labour for 6-12 months), but almost nobody talks about that as a gender equality issue.
>I'm one of those overeducated women with the upper hand or something like that, although due to my great success in education I'm not out-earning all that many people yet.
Education of course doesn't directly lead to higher earnings, as you need to choose the right industry and career path. Of course, I don't know anything about you in particular, but most well-off people underestimate the earnings of otherpeople. (I don't know the exact statistic, but the top 10% think that they're only slightly better off than the average or something).
Anyway, men earn more than women because they work longer hours (about 20% more in average). The other explanation is that men choose careers that have higher income (e.g. according to research for men income matters a lot more in career choise than for women).
>Remember, though, that the mythical ability to get a guy to pay for dinner and that incredible math PhD mean nothing when a guy on the street is looking me up & down & giving me a "compliment."
Err, men have to deal with crazy people on the bus too. In fact, vast majority of street violence is against men (it's around 80% in my country).
Wow, what a horrific story. I hope my daughter never has to go through something like that.
Query: why are 80% of men homeless. That stat on it's own is not indicative of disadvantage towards men. There needs to be some analysis of the why to determine that.
Quey: how does the suicide give women an "uppper hand" this is a personal choice, and doesn't seem to be about gender equality at all. Sure you could say "men are more pressured..." but you could also say "women aren't empowered to make decisions about their body and don't see it as viable". Again: how does the stat show an upper hand?
About dating: I don't think you can declare women have the "upper hand". At best they have an "even hand". Sure there are pretty girls that get an absurde level of "power of choice", but there are plenty of men in the same category. Similarly when the traditional "men approach" role is taken, women are stuck with what comes their way. Putting it another way: in my experience the problems women experience in dating are the same as the problems men experience: shitty candidates, lots of fear of rejection, insecurity and incompatability issues. Leading to:
Query: how do women have the upper hand in dating in your mind?
Quey: how does the suicide give women an "uppper hand" this is a personal choice, and doesn't seem to be about gender equality at all. Sure you could say "men are more pressured..." but you could also say "women aren't empowered to make decisions about their body and don't see it as viable". Again: how does the stat show an upper hand?
About dating: I don't think you can declare women have the "upper hand". At best they have an "even hand". Sure there are pretty girls that get an absurde level of "power of choice", but there are plenty of men in the same category. Similarly when the traditional "men approach" role is taken, women are stuck with what comes their way. Putting it another way: in my experience the problems women experience in dating are the same as the problems men experience: shitty candidates, lots of fear of rejection, insecurity and incompatability issues. Leading to:
Query: how do women have the upper hand in dating in your mind?
>Query: why are 80% of men homeless. That stat on it's own is not indicative of disadvantage towards men. There needs to be some analysis of the why to determine that.
It indicates that men are at a disadvantage. It doesn't matter what causes the disadvantage, it's still a fact. Of course, when men are at a disadvantage the reason is never expected to be gender roles or discrimination.
>Quey: how does the suicide give women an "uppper hand" this is a personal choice
If you think social issue like suicide can be categorized as "personal choice", you don't know much about depression and suicide. There are factors that increase risk to suicide, like poverty and depression, which are quite prevalent in males.
>About dating: I don't think you can declare women have the "upper hand". At best they have an "even hand". Sure there are pretty girls that get an absurde level of "power of choice", but there are plenty of men in the same category.
That description doesn't quite fit the facts, though. It's more like the upper 2/3 of women are in the same position as upper 1/3 of men for various reasons. You can just look at the number of messages on online dating sites, or look at the genetic evidence: 2/3 of all women in history have had children, but only 1/3 men have had genetic offspring.
>Putting it another way: in my experience the problems women experience in dating are the same as the problems men experience: shitty candidates, lots of fear of rejection, insecurity and incompatability issues.
The social etiquette and gender roles and various other reasons mean that men are expected to make the initiation, and women can simply choose the best candidate. That means that men have to face a lot more rejection than women.
This is a good article on the issue: http://alvanista.wordpress.com/2009/11/27/another-okcupid-st...
It indicates that men are at a disadvantage. It doesn't matter what causes the disadvantage, it's still a fact. Of course, when men are at a disadvantage the reason is never expected to be gender roles or discrimination.
>Quey: how does the suicide give women an "uppper hand" this is a personal choice
If you think social issue like suicide can be categorized as "personal choice", you don't know much about depression and suicide. There are factors that increase risk to suicide, like poverty and depression, which are quite prevalent in males.
>About dating: I don't think you can declare women have the "upper hand". At best they have an "even hand". Sure there are pretty girls that get an absurde level of "power of choice", but there are plenty of men in the same category.
That description doesn't quite fit the facts, though. It's more like the upper 2/3 of women are in the same position as upper 1/3 of men for various reasons. You can just look at the number of messages on online dating sites, or look at the genetic evidence: 2/3 of all women in history have had children, but only 1/3 men have had genetic offspring.
>Putting it another way: in my experience the problems women experience in dating are the same as the problems men experience: shitty candidates, lots of fear of rejection, insecurity and incompatability issues.
The social etiquette and gender roles and various other reasons mean that men are expected to make the initiation, and women can simply choose the best candidate. That means that men have to face a lot more rejection than women.
This is a good article on the issue: http://alvanista.wordpress.com/2009/11/27/another-okcupid-st...
>>Query: why are 80% of men homeless. That stat on it's own is not indicative of disadvantage towards men. There needs to be some analysis of the why to determine that.
>It indicates that men are at a disadvantage. It doesn't matter what causes the disadvantage, it's still a fact. Of course, when men are at a disadvantage the reason is never expected to be gender roles or discrimination.
False. This is not how statistics work. There could be other confounding factors that are relevant. For instance, of the women who would become homeless how many are forced into some sort of prostitution scheme from which they can't escape? How many die early in homelessness because they are at a survival as homeless person disadvantage? You are not providing enough data, just cherry picking context free numbers as if it meant something.
>>Quey: how does the suicide give women an "uppper hand" this is a personal choice
>If you think social issue like suicide can be categorized as "personal choice", you don't know much about depression and suicide. There are factors that increase risk to suicide, like poverty and depression, which are quite prevalent in males.
Maybe. So what advantages to women have. Again, you need to explain a causal relationship of advantage, not just cherry pick numbers as if it were meaningful.
About the dating stuff: your stat makes no sense with regards to genetics. Everyone gets a X chromosome, some get 2 of them. Of course there will be more attributable genetic lineage to women, wheres a guy who only produces daughters will not necessarily be identifiable in a few generations from his sister who passes on the same X chromosome to ~50% of her offspring. Also, why does this genetic number prove evidence for "do nothing"? That is conflating two similar numbers pointlessly. Again, I suggest you learn some simple statistics.
As for the initiation thing: that is not a disadvantage to males. A couple reasons:
First of all, except for people who have 0 social skills initiation is really not hard.
Second, initiation must be invited, putting half the onus in the woman's hands (again, there are cues and signaling for this) - the act of asking or a date or starting a conversation is quite far into the courting process.
Third, simply choosing the best candidate is not - ever been part of a hiring process? Sometimes all the candidates are shitty and you have to choose "no hire", this is a problem.
Fourth do you really think women just sit there and do nothing in dating but wait for a candidate to come along? I doubt that, otherwise why would there be a giant business targeting women with things like "how to make guys notice you", and "improve your dating potential".
Fifth: In the traditional role, women have the following disadvantage: they are the ones with the job of keeping men around far more often than men keeping a woman around. Once the relationship is established, the woman has to keep the man happy. (again - big buisness in magazines with articles like "keep your man happy and around", "how to prevent him from cheating" and the like).
Finally your linked article presupposes the conclusion it reaches, and ignores in its analysis any other factors.
>It indicates that men are at a disadvantage. It doesn't matter what causes the disadvantage, it's still a fact. Of course, when men are at a disadvantage the reason is never expected to be gender roles or discrimination.
False. This is not how statistics work. There could be other confounding factors that are relevant. For instance, of the women who would become homeless how many are forced into some sort of prostitution scheme from which they can't escape? How many die early in homelessness because they are at a survival as homeless person disadvantage? You are not providing enough data, just cherry picking context free numbers as if it meant something.
>>Quey: how does the suicide give women an "uppper hand" this is a personal choice
>If you think social issue like suicide can be categorized as "personal choice", you don't know much about depression and suicide. There are factors that increase risk to suicide, like poverty and depression, which are quite prevalent in males.
Maybe. So what advantages to women have. Again, you need to explain a causal relationship of advantage, not just cherry pick numbers as if it were meaningful.
About the dating stuff: your stat makes no sense with regards to genetics. Everyone gets a X chromosome, some get 2 of them. Of course there will be more attributable genetic lineage to women, wheres a guy who only produces daughters will not necessarily be identifiable in a few generations from his sister who passes on the same X chromosome to ~50% of her offspring. Also, why does this genetic number prove evidence for "do nothing"? That is conflating two similar numbers pointlessly. Again, I suggest you learn some simple statistics.
As for the initiation thing: that is not a disadvantage to males. A couple reasons:
First of all, except for people who have 0 social skills initiation is really not hard.
Second, initiation must be invited, putting half the onus in the woman's hands (again, there are cues and signaling for this) - the act of asking or a date or starting a conversation is quite far into the courting process.
Third, simply choosing the best candidate is not - ever been part of a hiring process? Sometimes all the candidates are shitty and you have to choose "no hire", this is a problem.
Fourth do you really think women just sit there and do nothing in dating but wait for a candidate to come along? I doubt that, otherwise why would there be a giant business targeting women with things like "how to make guys notice you", and "improve your dating potential".
Fifth: In the traditional role, women have the following disadvantage: they are the ones with the job of keeping men around far more often than men keeping a woman around. Once the relationship is established, the woman has to keep the man happy. (again - big buisness in magazines with articles like "keep your man happy and around", "how to prevent him from cheating" and the like).
Finally your linked article presupposes the conclusion it reaches, and ignores in its analysis any other factors.
If "men have the upper hand and lower hand"; then, yes men actually do have the upper hand.
"X have upper hand" implies that on average X are better off than non-X. Therefore it's not very honest to talk only about the well-off subset of X, if there's a similarly sized not-so-well-off subset of X which mirrors the successful subset.
> "X have upper hand" implies that on average X are better off than non-X.
I don't think that's a valid inference, honestly. Firstly, "average" is too tied to distribution and biased outliers and asymmetry. Perhaps you intended to compare medians.
"have the upper hand" I think means that when you compare proportions of X to non-X within strata that the proportion of X decreases with increasing status.
I don't think that's a valid inference, honestly. Firstly, "average" is too tied to distribution and biased outliers and asymmetry. Perhaps you intended to compare medians.
"have the upper hand" I think means that when you compare proportions of X to non-X within strata that the proportion of X decreases with increasing status.
Well, honestly, I didn't start noticing my privilege until I was a fair bit older than 20. It's a normal cognitive bias. Nobody wakes up in the the morning saying, "Thank goodness I have legs," as they jump out of bed. We just accept the positives life hands us as normal. What we notice are the negatives.
Racial privilege was the one I noticed first. And that was mainly because I lived in places where as a foreigner I was outside the normal framework. That made it much easier to see race and class dynamics at work. It was only after that I could start seeing gender dynamics more clearly. But they're still hard, because you can't try be an outsider to that in the same way.
I agree that we should be working toward parity. I just don't think we're there yet.
Racial privilege was the one I noticed first. And that was mainly because I lived in places where as a foreigner I was outside the normal framework. That made it much easier to see race and class dynamics at work. It was only after that I could start seeing gender dynamics more clearly. But they're still hard, because you can't try be an outsider to that in the same way.
I agree that we should be working toward parity. I just don't think we're there yet.
The scales still have a way to go. Sure, it's sometimes more acceptable to make sweeping negative generalities about men than women, because we're more tuned in to misogyny than misandry, but the reality remains that women still have serious issues to contend with, including by not limited to:
- lack of representation in media (look up the Bechdel test)
- street harassment
- pay discrepancies
- discrimination in hiring processes, etc
And even calling women "sweet" isn't always appreciated. See http://rookiemag.com/2013/04/no-more-nice-girls/
And even calling women "sweet" isn't always appreciated. See http://rookiemag.com/2013/04/no-more-nice-girls/
As a man, at least here in north America. You're expected to have a thick skin, to not care if someone has a better lot, and to more or less take what you want (so long as it's not immoral to do so). There are quiet a few men who don't fit this bill, but I have to ask: What's so bad about these expectations?
If these expectations remain, what possible social change could occur that would put our "brutish" gender in the crapper? As long as that cultural push exists to be stoic, strong, tough, and to go for what they want, then our male culture is ingrained to be immune to a social upheaval. It's a good way to live if you ask me.
My recommendation is to not care.
I do not care.
I hope the girls have fun on LuLu.
Now if the girls want to change their cultural expectations to make their lives better? Sounds great! I don't care.
If these expectations remain, what possible social change could occur that would put our "brutish" gender in the crapper? As long as that cultural push exists to be stoic, strong, tough, and to go for what they want, then our male culture is ingrained to be immune to a social upheaval. It's a good way to live if you ask me.
My recommendation is to not care.
I do not care.
I hope the girls have fun on LuLu.
Now if the girls want to change their cultural expectations to make their lives better? Sounds great! I don't care.
Men as a sex have had advantageous circumstances and treatment for a long time, yes. That has absolutely nothing to do with men who are alive today.
Perhaps you're a male who's OK with being the subject of discriminatory treatment over centuries of gain you didn't get to live through. I'm not, and I don't think anyone should be. Unless two wrongs make a right, discriminating against people who have not been a party to the kind of discrimination you're talking about helps no one, it just alienates those who see our position clearly.
Perhaps you're a male who's OK with being the subject of discriminatory treatment over centuries of gain you didn't get to live through. I'm not, and I don't think anyone should be. Unless two wrongs make a right, discriminating against people who have not been a party to the kind of discrimination you're talking about helps no one, it just alienates those who see our position clearly.
"Men as a sex have had advantageous circumstances and treatment for a long time, yes. That has absolutely nothing to do with men who are alive today."
Let's talk about the gender ratio today in Congress, or among Fortune 500 CEOs. Let's talk about the recent study showing that given identical (fake) resumes for a lab manager position, scientists on average offer lower salary and less mentoring to female candidates. http://www.psmag.com/culture-society/sexists-in-white-coats-... That's just a few examples; there are countless others.
I completely agree that it's unfair to blame men today for the long history of inequality in our society. But 1) that history is not remotely over, and 2) the responsibility that we do have as men alive today is to find whatever ways we can to make progress in improving these issues for everyone.
I honestly don't know the best ways to do that; none of them seem entirely good or entirely effective. But if we know that there is a vast invisible finger of society tipping the scales against women in a given context, it does not strike me as necessarily immoral to put explicit structures in place designed to tip things a little bit back the other way. (I'm sure it could be implemented poorly.) We have to break the self-reinforcing cycle somehow, and maybe an admittedly clumsy counter-push against those social pressures can help.
Let's talk about the gender ratio today in Congress, or among Fortune 500 CEOs. Let's talk about the recent study showing that given identical (fake) resumes for a lab manager position, scientists on average offer lower salary and less mentoring to female candidates. http://www.psmag.com/culture-society/sexists-in-white-coats-... That's just a few examples; there are countless others.
I completely agree that it's unfair to blame men today for the long history of inequality in our society. But 1) that history is not remotely over, and 2) the responsibility that we do have as men alive today is to find whatever ways we can to make progress in improving these issues for everyone.
I honestly don't know the best ways to do that; none of them seem entirely good or entirely effective. But if we know that there is a vast invisible finger of society tipping the scales against women in a given context, it does not strike me as necessarily immoral to put explicit structures in place designed to tip things a little bit back the other way. (I'm sure it could be implemented poorly.) We have to break the self-reinforcing cycle somehow, and maybe an admittedly clumsy counter-push against those social pressures can help.
> Let's talk about the gender ratio today in Congress, or among Fortune 500 CEOs.
The few male at the top are supported by an army of women in leading positions, such as project manager and director. Under these women are many, many more men with lesser roles.
Women have it good in the middle to upper regions of corporate and politics. In those roles they are very appreciated and have lots of real power (and get to boss around other men).
It should be interesting to know how many have women as direct superiors vs viceversa.
The few male at the top are supported by an army of women in leading positions, such as project manager and director. Under these women are many, many more men with lesser roles.
Women have it good in the middle to upper regions of corporate and politics. In those roles they are very appreciated and have lots of real power (and get to boss around other men).
It should be interesting to know how many have women as direct superiors vs viceversa.
But if we know that there is a vast invisible finger of society tipping the scales against women in a given context, it does not strike me as necessarily immoral to put explicit structures in place designed to tip things a little bit back the other way.
Seriously? A "vast invisible finger?" No, I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. I'm all for social equality. Equality of opportunity. The way to implement equality is not through further inequality in another direction. That means opportunity starting all the way at the bottom, with basic education, moving up towards higher education, government, and business.
That does NOT mean "hey, we're going to fix this RIGHT NOW, and if women/blacks/pygmys/minority x are underrepresented in any way, we're going to 'tip the scales' in your favor until someone arbitrarily decides thing are 'equal' enough!"
It is unfair to blame men for this situation. It's also unfair to everyone to try and solve the problem of discrimination with more discrimination.
Seriously? A "vast invisible finger?" No, I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. I'm all for social equality. Equality of opportunity. The way to implement equality is not through further inequality in another direction. That means opportunity starting all the way at the bottom, with basic education, moving up towards higher education, government, and business.
That does NOT mean "hey, we're going to fix this RIGHT NOW, and if women/blacks/pygmys/minority x are underrepresented in any way, we're going to 'tip the scales' in your favor until someone arbitrarily decides thing are 'equal' enough!"
It is unfair to blame men for this situation. It's also unfair to everyone to try and solve the problem of discrimination with more discrimination.
>Let's talk about the gender ratio today in Congress, or among Fortune 500 CEOs
Sure. But lets also talk about the gender ratio of prisoners, the homeless, suicides, workplace deaths, etc. It is fallacious to look only at the top 0.0001% of men and declare that men as a group have things better as a result. Men have a much greater variance in virtually every measurable aspect. Look at the entire spectrum.
http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm
Sure. But lets also talk about the gender ratio of prisoners, the homeless, suicides, workplace deaths, etc. It is fallacious to look only at the top 0.0001% of men and declare that men as a group have things better as a result. Men have a much greater variance in virtually every measurable aspect. Look at the entire spectrum.
http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm
You're conceding too much. High status men have had advantageous circumstances and treatment for a long time. Men are competitors & not particularly kind towards those below them, especially those of no inherent reproductive value... cannon fodder don't have ovaries.
As a man who is, by all accounts, alive today, I still feel like I've gotten a pretty swell deal.
Just because I haven't been an active participant in discrimination doesn't mean I haven't been the recipient of unearned privilege.
I agree that two wrongs don't make a right. But I also believe that fixing the endemic sexism that's still with us is inevitably a messy process. And I believe people who have been victims of that have some very reasonable issues to work out along the way. I think everybody should try to be understanding. But as somebody who ended up getting a better deal than average, I think it's especially incumbent on me to be gracious, kind, and patient.
Just because I haven't been an active participant in discrimination doesn't mean I haven't been the recipient of unearned privilege.
I agree that two wrongs don't make a right. But I also believe that fixing the endemic sexism that's still with us is inevitably a messy process. And I believe people who have been victims of that have some very reasonable issues to work out along the way. I think everybody should try to be understanding. But as somebody who ended up getting a better deal than average, I think it's especially incumbent on me to be gracious, kind, and patient.
>Men have been getting the good end of sexual discrimination for centuries. Owning property. Voting. Higher education. Being allowed to practice a profession. Being favored by marriage laws. Being favored by social biases.
Yes, so let's reverse it, and get a female-biased revenge ...on people that weren't even alive back at those times.
Why not also sell white people as slaves?
Yes, so let's reverse it, and get a female-biased revenge ...on people that weren't even alive back at those times.
Why not also sell white people as slaves?
You're doing it wrong. If you want to Godwin a thread, you actually have to mention Hitler or the Holocaust. Just making ridiculously over-the-top historical analogies isn't enough.
I'm the one doing it wrong? The parent mentioned that discrimination is OK because of "historical analogies" drawn from past centuries. I merely extended it to another domain for sarcasm's sake.
Second, you DO know that "Godwin's law" is not an actual law that govern's discussions, and it's not even something that people agree on its validity, right? It's merely a BS internet meme, a funny quote used as a joke. Invoking it is like invoking made up statistics as an argument.
Second, you DO know that "Godwin's law" is not an actual law that govern's discussions, and it's not even something that people agree on its validity, right? It's merely a BS internet meme, a funny quote used as a joke. Invoking it is like invoking made up statistics as an argument.
Hi! I do know about Godwin's Law. I even know Mike Godwin a little. And I'm invoking it as a reminder to avoid hysteria and outrageous hyperbole, which was the original point of his comment.
By the way, I didn't say that discrimination was ok, and I wasn't making a historical analogy. I was pointing out that our existing society is just emerging from that long history of sexism.
By the way, I didn't say that discrimination was ok, and I wasn't making a historical analogy. I was pointing out that our existing society is just emerging from that long history of sexism.
Of I invoke Godwin properly, can we end this inane thread?
You know who else wanted to end threads? Hitler.
Done.
You know who else wanted to end threads? Hitler.
Done.
That is the worst way to go about this because it DOESN'T ACTUALLY FIX THE PROBLEM. It just makes it worse. Particularly because you are punishing people, men, who have never participated in the subjugation of women. This whole counter racism, counter sexism thing is just making things worst. It is basically just shifting the balance. What does that do for actually fixing the problem? Not a damn thing. Your attitude is vile and it is the same attitude that led to women being treated the way they were in history.
> Particularly because you are punishing people, men, who have never participated in the subjugation of women.
This is impossible, all men have and do participate in the subjugation of women so as systemic sexism exists.
This is impossible, all men have and do participate in the subjugation of women so as systemic sexism exists.
But according to your logic, all women have participated in the subjugation of women through systemic sexism.
This is true. Sexism is not men vs women, it's all of us vs ourselves. But that doesn't mean men and women occupy the same space in the conflict.
>Men have been getting the good end of sexual discrimination for centuries. Owning property. Voting.
You are referring to rich men, that elusive 1%. Average men have traditionally gotten the worst/riskiest jobs such as soldier and physical labourer. While the top 1% do get these advantages, the bottom 99% are maybe worse off than women.
Also, the "men had it good for centuries, it's women's turn now" doesn't hold. I am not those men. I was not present then and I resent having to pay for it. Should a child have to pay for the sins of 10 generations ago?
What counts for us is here and now. What passed, passed. It was not our doing.
You are referring to rich men, that elusive 1%. Average men have traditionally gotten the worst/riskiest jobs such as soldier and physical labourer. While the top 1% do get these advantages, the bottom 99% are maybe worse off than women.
Also, the "men had it good for centuries, it's women's turn now" doesn't hold. I am not those men. I was not present then and I resent having to pay for it. Should a child have to pay for the sins of 10 generations ago?
What counts for us is here and now. What passed, passed. It was not our doing.
I never said people should pay for past sins, and agree that would be wrong.
My point in bringing up the history is that the effects of the history aren't past. I have done unfairly well because I'm a guy. That should end.
My point in bringing up the history is that the effects of the history aren't past. I have done unfairly well because I'm a guy. That should end.
The shortest path to peace and justice is definitely swiveling the artillery.
I sincerely hope you're joking.
I sincerely hope you're joking.
> Men have been getting the good end of sexual discrimination for centuries. Owning property. Voting. Higher education. Being allowed to practice a profession. Being favored by marriage laws. Being favored by social biases.
Are you saying that men should be expected to "pay" for the priveleges of previous generations of men? If not, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, because all the advantages you list are now equally enjoyed by women (in some cases moreso, e.g. favored by marriage laws).
Are you saying that men should be expected to "pay" for the priveleges of previous generations of men? If not, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, because all the advantages you list are now equally enjoyed by women (in some cases moreso, e.g. favored by marriage laws).
Don't forget going to battle and lots and lots of dying.
So? I didn't exist back then. Why should I suffer because someone else that happened to be the same gender as me was privileged?
When, exactly, is the date that you believe that male privilege ended?
There are a couple of schools around the world targeted at men, or women...
One very interesting thing, is that schools targeted at women are seem as "traditional" and "bastions" or "empowering", specially if they are ancient and do have good education...
Men schools, once regarded in the same way, are now being attacked, one of the best schools in the US for example is being sued for not taking female students, and a common tag attached to them is "Backwards" or "medieval" or "inquisitors"
If this was a US-only phenomenon, at least I would feel less troubled, except even in Brazil we had a crazy problem...
During the government ranking of high schools (that is made with a test that all high schools students in the country must take if they wish to join university), the first place was a boys-only school.
This is a problem, because it drew attention to them, now there are all sorts of discrimination lawsuits from parents of girls, and the media is bellowing how "less worse" they are, because they accept female teachers, and that when they did not accepted them they were evil, and now that they do they are less evil, but that this would be only a truly good school when they start accepting girls and change some of their authoritarian ways and become more tolerating and egalitarian.
Or some issue with bars... Female only bars in Brazil are allowed and seen as a female fun thing. Male only bars get the cops quickly called on them for refusing entry of costumer based on gender. (Female-only are illegal too, but cops ignore it).
Or one even crazier, it is common to employers to want to hire one gender or other (for example they might want a woman to be the maintenance person of the women's bathroom), yet although signs of "hiring female x" don't attract problems, if you put a sign like "hiring male bathroom cleaner" you get quickly sued for hiring discrimination (that is illegal).
I even had a business owner once complain that a woman sued him (and almost won... a judge chance that allowed he win the case) for not hiring her as attendant in a store for male intimate clothing... The first judge saw it purely in the light of law: you cannot discriminate, period. the second judge had more common sense on his head and imaginated that it would bring even more legal problems to have a woman hanging around men that might want to become naked (or almost naked depending on store policy regarding trying intimate clothes) to choose his new clothes...
One very interesting thing, is that schools targeted at women are seem as "traditional" and "bastions" or "empowering", specially if they are ancient and do have good education...
Men schools, once regarded in the same way, are now being attacked, one of the best schools in the US for example is being sued for not taking female students, and a common tag attached to them is "Backwards" or "medieval" or "inquisitors"
If this was a US-only phenomenon, at least I would feel less troubled, except even in Brazil we had a crazy problem...
During the government ranking of high schools (that is made with a test that all high schools students in the country must take if they wish to join university), the first place was a boys-only school.
This is a problem, because it drew attention to them, now there are all sorts of discrimination lawsuits from parents of girls, and the media is bellowing how "less worse" they are, because they accept female teachers, and that when they did not accepted them they were evil, and now that they do they are less evil, but that this would be only a truly good school when they start accepting girls and change some of their authoritarian ways and become more tolerating and egalitarian.
Or some issue with bars... Female only bars in Brazil are allowed and seen as a female fun thing. Male only bars get the cops quickly called on them for refusing entry of costumer based on gender. (Female-only are illegal too, but cops ignore it).
Or one even crazier, it is common to employers to want to hire one gender or other (for example they might want a woman to be the maintenance person of the women's bathroom), yet although signs of "hiring female x" don't attract problems, if you put a sign like "hiring male bathroom cleaner" you get quickly sued for hiring discrimination (that is illegal).
I even had a business owner once complain that a woman sued him (and almost won... a judge chance that allowed he win the case) for not hiring her as attendant in a store for male intimate clothing... The first judge saw it purely in the light of law: you cannot discriminate, period. the second judge had more common sense on his head and imaginated that it would bring even more legal problems to have a woman hanging around men that might want to become naked (or almost naked depending on store policy regarding trying intimate clothes) to choose his new clothes...
You've discovered Marxism! Marxism views the world through the lens of class conflict. In Marxist thought, racism and sexism can only be committed by dominant groups. So blatant discrimination and double standards against them are okay.
> Men schools, once regarded in the same way, are now being attacked, one of the best schools in the US for example is being sued for not taking female students, and a common tag attached to them is "Backwards" or "medieval" or "inquisitors"
Which school?
Which school?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_colleges_in_the_United_Sta...
EDIT: I can't comment as to the criticism; I haven't heard any.
EDIT: I can't comment as to the criticism; I haven't heard any.
He appears to be from brazil, maybe there are some there.
One particular that I can remember is this: http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/01/my-dream-co...
Just read the comments related to this subject, and you will see what I mean (lots of attack on them because the wish to remain male only)
Just read the comments related to this subject, and you will see what I mean (lots of attack on them because the wish to remain male only)
Which is nicely summed up in this image: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zNnqH9km2FI/SxBdnmvo5xI/AAAAAAAABr...
like most models? many advertising agencies use minors on their "sexy" ads that are specifically targeted to arouse men of all ages. You just don't see it but men are all over younger girls.
For better and for worse; the coverage of apps targeting women usually portrays women as hapless damsels in distress to whose rescue we must come through outrage and this and that.
The increased outrage is not necessarily something that automatically favours the sex it purports to defend.
One could argue that people care more about women than men, but one could also argue that women need to be defended more than men, which flips the discussion of sexism or gender-favouritism on its head.
But generally, I definitely find there to be a gendered response, depending on the target demographic.
The increased outrage is not necessarily something that automatically favours the sex it purports to defend.
One could argue that people care more about women than men, but one could also argue that women need to be defended more than men, which flips the discussion of sexism or gender-favouritism on its head.
But generally, I definitely find there to be a gendered response, depending on the target demographic.
Someone should make Lolo and find out.
This comes pretty close though. http://www.pikinis.com
An iPhone app that finds bikini photos of your Facebook friends
An iPhone app that finds bikini photos of your Facebook friends
Nah, it just probably wouldn't have been funded.
> If this had been an app for men rating and alerting them about certain women all hell would of broke loose.
Google "Black Book Apps". There should be hundreds of them, I assume.
Google "Black Book Apps". There should be hundreds of them, I assume.
How does this even work?
I assume it's a database that you search by name and location but then there's going to be all kinds of collisions. Or does it pull data from social networks?
I imagine the signal to noise ratio will just be horrible, bitter ex girlfriends will just spam guys with negative tags even if they aren't true and it's information will just lose all value.
I imagine the signal to noise ratio will just be horrible, bitter ex girlfriends will just spam guys with negative tags even if they aren't true and it's information will just lose all value.
You are assuming that data fidelity is high on their list of priorities.
It seems you must login with Facebook, which I assume allows for picking of very specific people.
I would expect it to be a lot of negatives, because people usually don't (seem to) gossip as much about positives.
I would expect it to be a lot of negatives, because people usually don't (seem to) gossip as much about positives.
So does that mean you can only rate people who are also on facebook? Another excellent reason to avoid using FB then I guess..
So is there an app for men on women or a gay or bi?
They should call it Shrew-lu.
It'd be interesting to see a review of Lulu that didn't seem to be mainly made of "dude with baseball cap, suddenly concerned that he might be called to account".
To me, the emotional heart of this piece of writing is his concern with "men kowtowing". I looked at his other articles and his personal site, and I didn't see anything where his writing was half this passionate. And certainly nothing where he'd expressed concern for sexism.
I suspect if I looked into Lulu I'd also not like it. But this article is so full of the author that I really can't see the subject.
To me, the emotional heart of this piece of writing is his concern with "men kowtowing". I looked at his other articles and his personal site, and I didn't see anything where his writing was half this passionate. And certainly nothing where he'd expressed concern for sexism.
I suspect if I looked into Lulu I'd also not like it. But this article is so full of the author that I really can't see the subject.
Um.... So because the author doesn't normally soapbox about this hot-button issue but felt unusually compelled to call this instance out, you're less inclined to take him seriously?
Never mind that either side of that is the worst kind of ad hominem.
Never mind that either side of that is the worst kind of ad hominem.
Exactly. Because that, along with the article itself, suggests that the unusual compulsion is not a strong opposition to sexism.
Ad hominem concerns apply to rational arguments. This piece is not cool, rational discourse. It's a highly emotional piece, written to incite emotion. Inquiring about the source and nature of the emotion that drives it is fair.
Ad hominem concerns apply to rational arguments. This piece is not cool, rational discourse. It's a highly emotional piece, written to incite emotion. Inquiring about the source and nature of the emotion that drives it is fair.
He probably didn't notice sexism until it became personal. Why is that wrong? Most people become activists when something personally gets in their face, rather than through some abstract idea of "justice".
It's not wrong as such. It's just shallow. Hopefully it's the beginning for him of understanding sexism more deeply.
I do think it's wrong for a writer, though. If you're going to set yourself up as writing an article about a topic, I think you should actually know something about the topic.
This would have been a better piece if he'd made it more explicitly about his own feelings all the way through, rather than trying to make it about bigger things.
I do think it's wrong for a writer, though. If you're going to set yourself up as writing an article about a topic, I think you should actually know something about the topic.
This would have been a better piece if he'd made it more explicitly about his own feelings all the way through, rather than trying to make it about bigger things.
Wow
Besides the sexist nature of the app (imagine the outcry if it would be an app to rate girls... "sexist startup guys treating women like netflix movies") what the hell is their business model? they collected 2.5 million for a free app, without a business model and a VERY questionable legal standing (if not in the us almost anywhere else in the world)
Business model? Is that the thing where you have "revenues" and "profits" that only scare away potential acquirers by being measurable?
I don't see why anyone would want such a "business model".
I don't see why anyone would want such a "business model".
Need someone to hack and leak the user data to build a database of pathetic self absorbed women not worth giving the time of day to let alone building any sort of friendship or god forbid a relationship with.
As a guy, I couldn't care less that these kinds of things exist. This app will be used exclusively by a superficial audience who I would have absolutely no interest in meeting. If anything, I'd quite like to end up on this with extremely negative reviews just so the horrible people using this will stay the fuck away from me.
Imagine you were going to go out on a date with a new woman and you knew there was a "review" of her online that you could download for free in 10 seconds.
Would you not be tempted to at least look? I mean you know it's just superficial crap, but you might have a look; just for laughs of course..
Or you meet a new girl out somewhere and get her phone number, then your buddy comes to you and says "haha, dude that chick you met.. says here she gives a terrible blowjob! LOL!"
I mean, you'd like to think that stuff wouldn't colour your judgement at all..
Would you not be tempted to at least look? I mean you know it's just superficial crap, but you might have a look; just for laughs of course..
Or you meet a new girl out somewhere and get her phone number, then your buddy comes to you and says "haha, dude that chick you met.. says here she gives a terrible blowjob! LOL!"
I mean, you'd like to think that stuff wouldn't colour your judgement at all..
No, not really, why in the hell would I want to know what other people think about her? They obviously didn't get on perfectly because they're not still dating - QED.
And if my 'buddy' said that he'd get a polite "fuck off".
And if my 'buddy' said that he'd get a polite "fuck off".
But then those people will talk to their friends, and so on. And, contrary to what you might think, there's plenty of highly educated women who are sufficiently steeped in feminism (due to the process of acquiring that higher education) to see this as perfectly fair payback for patriarchy's many evils, and to use it without regret. So you end up targeting a thin sliver of possible women: not too superficial, but not too educated, and with no friends in either of those categories. Good luck with your dating.
>there's plenty of highly educated women who are sufficiently steeped in feminism (due to the process of acquiring that higher education) to see this as perfectly fair payback for patriarchy's many evils, and to use it without regret.
Your implicit attack on morals derived from feminism reveals a failure to understand feminism and its ideals and effects. Furthermore, demonizing "plenty of highly educated women" as eye-for-an-eye combatants seeking revenge for patriarchy isn't just silly, it's offensive.
Your implicit attack on morals derived from feminism reveals a failure to understand feminism and its ideals and effects. Furthermore, demonizing "plenty of highly educated women" as eye-for-an-eye combatants seeking revenge for patriarchy isn't just silly, it's offensive.
Obviously it's not black and white, but my point was to disabuse jshakes of his (frankly elitist) notion that only superficial and uninterestng people would be exposed to this app's ratings.
Well-educated people - both women and men, actually - are in fact more likely to be feminists (due to the cultural milieu at most universities, if nothing else), and feminists are in fact not unlikely to approve of things like Lulu as well-deserved reversals of privilege. I'm not saying all of them would (in fact, I am a feminist myself, and I do not), but it's not rare, either, and I've seen that kind of reaction from people I would not consider superficial or uninteresting.
That's not an attack on anything, it's just me sharing my personal experience. And who are you to say that my experience is invalid, or silly? I think that's far more offensive than anything I've said.
Well-educated people - both women and men, actually - are in fact more likely to be feminists (due to the cultural milieu at most universities, if nothing else), and feminists are in fact not unlikely to approve of things like Lulu as well-deserved reversals of privilege. I'm not saying all of them would (in fact, I am a feminist myself, and I do not), but it's not rare, either, and I've seen that kind of reaction from people I would not consider superficial or uninteresting.
That's not an attack on anything, it's just me sharing my personal experience. And who are you to say that my experience is invalid, or silly? I think that's far more offensive than anything I've said.
1. This is never going to be popular enough for that scenario to really play out
2. "Highly Educated" and "Decent, intelligent human being" are different things. It's nice when they collide, but they don't always.
3. Not all education leads to idiotic opinions like these.
Other than that, obviously everything you've said there is totally true, in that I think that covers everything you've said there.
2. "Highly Educated" and "Decent, intelligent human being" are different things. It's nice when they collide, but they don't always.
3. Not all education leads to idiotic opinions like these.
Other than that, obviously everything you've said there is totally true, in that I think that covers everything you've said there.
Wow, it's like everything that I used to fear about the dating world put into one shiny app. Had this been out years ago when I was single, it would've definitely given me a lot of anxiety. Having been happily married for 5 years, all I can say to single folks is that if someone actively rates people on apps/sites like this, they are most likely not the kind of people you want to be with in the long run.
As for the startup/app itself, it's the natural evolution of taking HotOrNot ratings + OKCupid profiles + Fuckedcompany gossip and building it into a neat package. There is certainly a demand for apps like this in the market but if you're a user, try to be nice even if you don't like someone. People can become really mean when anonymous.
As for the startup/app itself, it's the natural evolution of taking HotOrNot ratings + OKCupid profiles + Fuckedcompany gossip and building it into a neat package. There is certainly a demand for apps like this in the market but if you're a user, try to be nice even if you don't like someone. People can become really mean when anonymous.
Not to mention, female privilege lets them call men "creepers" or "perverts" without question. I've pressed female friends about this and they just answer with "I didnt like the look he gave me" or "we just didnt click."
So instead of understanding that most people are not compatible, we're now building a db to slander them based on purely emotional reasoning?
If women are using this then it says a lot about the woman. I imagine the women drawn to this are difficult anyway. This problem kind of solves itself. I doubt this app can help them and its a symptom of a very negative attitude toward dating and, frankly, socially acceptable misandry.
So instead of understanding that most people are not compatible, we're now building a db to slander them based on purely emotional reasoning?
If women are using this then it says a lot about the woman. I imagine the women drawn to this are difficult anyway. This problem kind of solves itself. I doubt this app can help them and its a symptom of a very negative attitude toward dating and, frankly, socially acceptable misandry.
"Creepy" means "he made me feel threatened and unsafe". It's valuable information for women to share within their social group so that they can avoid uncomfortable situations.
Though it is not at all appropriate to share such information on a public online forum.
Though it is not at all appropriate to share such information on a public online forum.
In theory, yes. I've seen more than one woman "confess" that creepiness was more a factor of attraction - that the same behavior from two men was considered creepy, unless the woman was attracted to one, in which case it was considered acceptable, even positively (and though I'm wary of ascribing fiction as another anecdote - witness female-oriented fiction, such as Interview With A Vampire, Twilight, Fifty Shades of Grey as being heavily tinged with behavior that, if there wasn't attraction, even if unexplored / unannounced as yet, would be unacceptable).
The problem with such terms as "creepy" is that they could apply to anyone, depending on circumstances.
- Did the hot date you were kind of into try to touch your boob without asking you? Creepy! (acceptable)
- Did the ugly guy two tables over compliment you on your looks when you were both trying to get a drink at the bar? Creepy! (not so acceptable.)
- Did the guy you were dating for a few months ask you for a 5' in-person conversation after you decided to break up out of the blue over SMS? Creepy! (that one happened to me and I felt personally threatened by this woman's implicit threat of slander)
It's also interesting how prevalent the notion of "creepyness" is in the US. Whereas in other cultures the same guy would be considered annoying, inconvenient, misguided or justifiedly threatening, here a blanket term is applied and everyone accepts it. The same principle applies to a lot of emotional stuff, where Americans apply very coarse "pattern matching" to behaviors that other cultures are way more nuanced about.
- Did the hot date you were kind of into try to touch your boob without asking you? Creepy! (acceptable)
- Did the ugly guy two tables over compliment you on your looks when you were both trying to get a drink at the bar? Creepy! (not so acceptable.)
- Did the guy you were dating for a few months ask you for a 5' in-person conversation after you decided to break up out of the blue over SMS? Creepy! (that one happened to me and I felt personally threatened by this woman's implicit threat of slander)
It's also interesting how prevalent the notion of "creepyness" is in the US. Whereas in other cultures the same guy would be considered annoying, inconvenient, misguided or justifiedly threatening, here a blanket term is applied and everyone accepts it. The same principle applies to a lot of emotional stuff, where Americans apply very coarse "pattern matching" to behaviors that other cultures are way more nuanced about.
Unattractive guy dared to look at me or ask me out, what a creeper. Onto the shit list he goes.
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Well, the classic sketch http://www.break.com/usercontent/2007/5/7/more-sexual-harass... is a bit exaggerated but it does have some truth in it.
Until we, as a society, can stop blaming women for their rapes (she was so sloshed, what did she think would happen when she got into bed with him?) women are going to be EXTREMELY conservative about these kinds of things.
When it's your fault if he rapes you, you put "creepy" on a hair trigger.
When it's your fault if he rapes you, you put "creepy" on a hair trigger.
You're being disingenuous. There are thousands of rape convictions a year regardless of whatever cherry-picked anti-women sentiment you think exists. Some of which are purely on hearsay and men go to prison with little to no physical evidence. Brian Banks is a good example.
Also, this app is to rate men. Its not an anti-rape app. Stop playing the rape card to defend every lousy idea.
Also, this app is to rate men. Its not an anti-rape app. Stop playing the rape card to defend every lousy idea.
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And when it's your fault for being a "creeper" when you just try to talk to a woman, you learn not to bother. Blaming women for their rapes is of course absurd and unjust, but indiscriminately second guessing all men everywhere is not the solution.
Maybe you didn't mean to use that example, but I think your point is kind of defeated if you say when women are simply being conservative or cautious and append that to a very non-cautious act. Getting sloshed is not the cautious way to go about something whether you are male or female. Your chance of being a victim of a crime (not just sexual crimes) goes up when you get drunk.
Before anyone jumps the gun, I'm not saying that someone raped while drunk is at fault. Only that this is a bad example of someone acting cautious at all. Caution and being protective (or the lack there of) != fault.
Before anyone jumps the gun, I'm not saying that someone raped while drunk is at fault. Only that this is a bad example of someone acting cautious at all. Caution and being protective (or the lack there of) != fault.
Yeah, but women want to have fun. So the solution is get drunk, but be careful about who you hang out with. Thus the hair-trigger creepiness detectors.
so now a socially awkward attempt to start a conversation with a woman means you're a rapist...
No, not what the GP said. Simply put, women are overly cautious when evaluating men because they know that they are not very well protected by the law (in as much as the threat of punishment acts as a deterrent, an idea for which the jury is still out) when it comes to rape, so they have to protect themselves by using any little indicator to hint that they are in the presence of a pervert. This is not particularly fair to most men, but I don't know that asking women to assume more risk so that you have an easier time getting laid is very fair either.
Just in case you are unaware of this, most women I know and have discussed this with agree that social awkwardness in men is often correlated with inappropriate sexual behaviour, so yes, if you make an awkward attempt at conversation, you are probably going to get negatively labelled. May I suggest working on your social skills if this bothers you?
Just in case you are unaware of this, most women I know and have discussed this with agree that social awkwardness in men is often correlated with inappropriate sexual behaviour, so yes, if you make an awkward attempt at conversation, you are probably going to get negatively labelled. May I suggest working on your social skills if this bothers you?
That is a very subjective measure. Would be interesting to see a study about whether women actually correlate social awkwardness with inappropriate behavior or unwanted behavior. If the guy is super charming and does the same thing, do they still consider it inappropriate?
I've known a number of women that tend to avoid the socially smooth guy because they see it as a mask for other sexual behaviors. I'm sure much of these types of judgments come from personal past interactions regardless of which direction they tend. Yay for anecdotal evidence!
I've known a number of women that tend to avoid the socially smooth guy because they see it as a mask for other sexual behaviors. I'm sure much of these types of judgments come from personal past interactions regardless of which direction they tend. Yay for anecdotal evidence!
I don't disagree with what you're saying, though I think that only picking on social awkwardness goes too far. For the benefit of any guys who read this and feel bad about themselves, here are some other behaviours that frequently correlate with inappropriate sexual behaviour:
- playing on a sports team (I'm Canadian, so I like to pick on hockey players, but this happens in other sports as well).
- working on oil rigs.
- abusing heavy drugs.
- working in sales.
- being too smooth.
- practicing that moronic "treat girls like your sister and insult them" pick-up method.
Long story short, there are many, many indicators of inappropriate sexual behaviour.
- playing on a sports team (I'm Canadian, so I like to pick on hockey players, but this happens in other sports as well).
- working on oil rigs.
- abusing heavy drugs.
- working in sales.
- being too smooth.
- practicing that moronic "treat girls like your sister and insult them" pick-up method.
Long story short, there are many, many indicators of inappropriate sexual behaviour.
being too smooth.
Too smooth? What is the right amount of smooth?
Too smooth? What is the right amount of smooth?
It's like a bait for the bad ones. Now, if only you could find out which people you knew used the app...
> purely emotional reasoning?
That's a contradiction in terms.
That's a contradiction in terms.
It only solves itself if the users are non anonymous. Otherwise, how do you know if a creeper posts to the site after your date?
Indeed. This would become the first question I asked a woman when trying to date. If she's childish enough to use something like this, I'd have no problem saying sayonara. There should be some expectation of maturity and general couth in any relationship.
Ask them if they use it?
Indeed. If you decide to stop dating someone because of an application on their phone, you are the mature one and they are the child.
Yes, it does. I have standards for the people I choose to involve myself with. In a similar vein, I would likely not even befriend anyone that uses it, or anyone that supports this type of application (either directed towards men or women). A big part of maturity is having personal integrity in all dealings. This means, for me, an automatic rejection of anyone who would use something like this. Similarly, I do not befriend constant gossips or complainers, and call my friends out when they do it. Certain people are a waste of relationship effort.
His point was that it's indicative of a childish and immature mentality, which is a judgment of a person, not a judgement of their phone.
Exactly. As offensive, shallow, and demeaning as Lulu might be it really isn't anything new. Trashy people of both sexes have used Facebook for gossipy purposes such as this for years. By now we should all have learned how to prune our relationship tree and unfriend, avoid, and block people who do this sort of thing. Anyone who would use a site like Lulu is not worthy to be a friend, much less a significant other.
To add to the anxiety that some men are probably feeling about this app, Lulu obnoxiously uses a homepage photo in which the women look like they're acting at best mischievous and at worst downright evil. Personally, the app does not cause me any anxiety, but I can tell from the comments that for some it does, and the homepage photo choice is a blatantly unapologetic statement about how Lulu hopes the app is used. The photo choice on the homepage does not mesh well with the text in the About page.
I don't really have much to hide in terms of being a "bad" guy, but I will openly admit I have several minor forms of neurosis. I could see several guys being needlessly embarrassed by an app like this. What I choose to share on the interent is one thing, what others choose to share is a bit different.
Take a look here :
http://m.luludude.com/
From onlulu.com's FAQ:
"Lulu Dude is a separate app we created for the boys because we do not let them into the original Lulu.
Guys don’t see what the girls see. We let them select their relationship status and profile picture and we encourage them to get their “fan base” to review them.
Lulu Dude is also a place for guys to get self-improvement tips. Think of Lulu Dude as Cosmo for guys."
Guys don’t see what the girls see. We let them select their relationship status and profile picture and we encourage them to get their “fan base” to review them.
Lulu Dude is also a place for guys to get self-improvement tips. Think of Lulu Dude as Cosmo for guys."
What is that? It wants a Facebook.
I don't have Facebook account myself, but it's related to Lulu app and onlulu (according to the faq). Apparently, guys can see what girls say about them.
So you sign in with your FB account, they pull in your data and put it into their app db so ladies can find you easier?
Very ... smart.
/edit: Oh, their privacy disclaimer states that they will also pull your friends' data into their DB.
Very ... smart.
/edit: Oh, their privacy disclaimer states that they will also pull your friends' data into their DB.
I don't think the main goal is to help people. Lulu get personal datas from girls (mobile app, onlulu) and from guys (luludude) with this system and probably make money with it. Helping ladies and guys is a "secondary" activity.
Interesting to see a startup with a business model that is entirely based in toeing the line of libel. I wouldn't bet on its sustainability...but certainly interesting to watch nonetheless.
I don't know if the link was about the app or the ridiculous "left" and "right" buttons that completely interfered with my reading the article.
I used to be unhappy about this app until I found an SQL injection vulnerability that allowed me to log in and access the accounts of my previous dates by only needing to know their email addresses. This meant I was able to manipulate the ratings and comments people had made about me. Now I like the app :)
Thanks Lulu!
Thanks Lulu!
As the former CTO of that company, I really doubt this. When I was there, the app was built on Django, and I left some pretty competent people behind, so I'm quite sure they wouldn't have made a mistake so rudimentary.
However, I don't know what happened after I left, so there might have been some dubious decisions.
However, I don't know what happened after I left, so there might have been some dubious decisions.
Facebook and Google have to do a lot of penetration tests to keep their security in tip-top shape, sure, they have a much larger attack vector in terms of code but my point is there:
Where there is public facing code, there is vulnerability.
Regardless of if you are built on Django, CodeIgniter, Rails or super-secret-obfuscated-language-mark-two, no application is bullet proof and it would be trivial for any highly skilled security tester to interface this way with your database.
Where there is public facing code, there is vulnerability.
Regardless of if you are built on Django, CodeIgniter, Rails or super-secret-obfuscated-language-mark-two, no application is bullet proof and it would be trivial for any highly skilled security tester to interface this way with your database.
> trivial for any highly skilled security tester to interface this way with your database.
It's not if you're not doing dumb stuff.
It's not if you're not doing dumb stuff.
I suppose so, but this heavily relies on no one in your operation having made a mistake, or that mistake having been caught before it was pushed live.
You have to be lucky every time, an attacker only needs to be lucky once.
You have to be lucky every time, an attacker only needs to be lucky once.
Above you are essentially saying every application has SQL injection vulnerabilities and any good security guy will find them. This is a very specific and dubious conclusion to draw from the more general principle that there will be some vulnerability, somewhere. SQL injection specifically is quite easy to avoid. With some frameworks it would actually be rather laborious to introduce an SQL injection vulnerability. This is what Alexander is alluding to. This does not imply that applications are easily secured, just that this attack vector isn't what it used to be.
Well, statistics of pentests does show that, if tested, the vast majority of good quality, generally securely built applications have some vulnerabilities, and average applications have a huge multitude of vulnerabilities.
SQL injections are just one class of many. There are ways to vastly reduce SQL injection risks but that still leaves many other venues of attack.
SQL injections are just one class of many. There are ways to vastly reduce SQL injection risks but that still leaves many other venues of attack.
No, I never have to be lucky at all. I literally can not put an SQL injection vulnerability into production unless I do so deliberately, my code wouldn't compile. Not everyone uses terrible rails style "lets automagically do shit behind your back so security holes are hidden from you" frameworks.
You're being too harsh. You seem to be talking about Haskell, so saying "not everyone" is a weird way to put it. You really mean a tiny fraction of people use Haskell to be safe in advanced ways. Well, Haskell is ahead of its time. Of course not that many people use it.
Even Haskell is not a silver bullet against every kind of security problem. Didn't Snap have a directory traversal bug a while back?
Even Haskell is not a silver bullet against every kind of security problem. Didn't Snap have a directory traversal bug a while back?
I don't understand what you are trying to convey. It appears like a deliberate red herring to try to distract from what I actually said. I personally use haskell, but you do not need to do so to get a complete guarantee against SQL injection. Nobody said anything about silver bullets or protecting against every security problem. I very clearly said SQL injection is a solved problem, in reply to someone claiming every single web app has SQL injection vulnerabilities in it and that any security researcher can easily sit down and exploit them, and the only way to deal with SQL injection is to be lucky over and over.
You are being too harsh (again). Whatever problems you deal with, whatever mistakes you make in your professional work, are also solved problems, using some technology that is unacceptable to you (probably for very good reasons).
You could have been informative and made your original point tactfully. Instead, you badmouthed a certain technology without even naming the stuff that was supposedly better. I'm a Haskell evangelist and agree with you 100%, and you came off like a jerk even to me.
You could have been informative and made your original point tactfully. Instead, you badmouthed a certain technology without even naming the stuff that was supposedly better. I'm a Haskell evangelist and agree with you 100%, and you came off like a jerk even to me.
I think perhaps we are operating with very different definitions of harsh. If your response is simply intended to be a poor attempt at criticizing my tone, you did not make that clear. Obviously such vacuous nonsense would not warrant a response.
Your assertion that whatever problems I deal with are solved problems is absolutely insane. Please, tell me how problems like interpreting customers requirements are "solved" and what technology I can use to ensure that all the code I write will 100% always match the users mental picture of what they wanted.
Criticizing the choice to deliberately create security holes for convenience is not "badmouthing", and "I'm offended" is not a productive response. It literally conveys no useful information at all.
Your assertion that whatever problems I deal with are solved problems is absolutely insane. Please, tell me how problems like interpreting customers requirements are "solved" and what technology I can use to ensure that all the code I write will 100% always match the users mental picture of what they wanted.
Criticizing the choice to deliberately create security holes for convenience is not "badmouthing", and "I'm offended" is not a productive response. It literally conveys no useful information at all.
I was talking about SQL injections specifically, not all vulnerabilities.
Unless you built it on you know... a language that barely anyone uses and has been reviewed and patched over the past 70 years. Like Fortran.
It was a joke BTW ;)
A failed attempt.
Oops, thought I clicked on HN... How'd I end up on Reddit?
The fact that this wasn't about the latest Javascript light framework didn't tip you off?
Ah, so apparently guys are still good enough to hire. Interesting. Care to share your experiences on what it was like to work there?
While I was there, we were building a social network for women, something between Path and Facebook where they could share their day-to-day with their closest friends. The rating thing was sort of an afterthought, I guess they pivoted.
There wasn't really a guy-hating culture, in fact, most of the employees there were men. I don't know how it's changed since.
There wasn't really a guy-hating culture, in fact, most of the employees there were men. I don't know how it's changed since.
Hopefully we still have a few good men on the inside.
> so apparently guys are still good enough to hire. Interesting.
I re-read the parent, and nowhere does it say nor imply that the CTO nor the people he hired were male. For all that we know, the site might be built by bimbos scratching one of their own itches.
I wouldn't bet on it, of course, but I'm amazed to see that prejudices are so deeply ingrained that:
* you read what was absolutely not written;
* nobody noticed.
I re-read the parent, and nowhere does it say nor imply that the CTO nor the people he hired were male. For all that we know, the site might be built by bimbos scratching one of their own itches.
I wouldn't bet on it, of course, but I'm amazed to see that prejudices are so deeply ingrained that:
* you read what was absolutely not written;
* nobody noticed.
His username is "StavrosK", and his full name, Stavros Korokithakis is in his profile. If you weren't familiar with the name Stavros and didn't know the gender, you could google it and the first link would take you to his website which shows his photo.
I don't see the 'deeply ingrained prejudice' here.
I don't see the 'deeply ingrained prejudice' here.
The parent is StavrosK, in their profile it says "I'm Stavros Korokithakis.", Stavros being a mans name.
Of course, it could not be true, but I can't see why anyone would bother.
Of course, it could not be true, but I can't see why anyone would bother.
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If there's one thing the internet has taught me, there is no such thing as ironclad code. OpenBSD still has security vulnerabilities, and I highly doubt Lulu's security chops are as good.
That said, I'm not trying to doubt the skill of Lulu's employees. Just warning that vulnerabilities are always a possibility.
That said, I'm not trying to doubt the skill of Lulu's employees. Just warning that vulnerabilities are always a possibility.
Oh, sure. I'm just saying that, as far as I know, nobody ever wrote inline SQL, so the specific vulnerability would be unlikely.
Why did you leave ?
I was working remotely and they wanted to concentrate the team, but I didn't want to move away.
Be careful with your trivial SQL injection, if the US police find out, that's 60 years behind bars, no access to a computer and daily "fun" in the shower.
But, no sexist gossip.
You're not thinking like an entrepreneur. That just means that prison rape victims are an untapped* market.
*badoom, pish!
*badoom, pish!
I find it absolutely despicable to make light of violent abuse, including sexual abuse, in prison. We should be doing all we can to make our prisons safer for everyone.
The fact that many people think it is OK to make and laugh at prison rape jokes sickens me. What would you think if I made rape jokes about your 90 year old grandma? Or your ten year old son? Or your wife? If that is not ok, neither is prison rape of adult men.
I am appalled to realize many people think prison rape is part and parcel of the "prison experience". Should rape be used as a deterrent to unwanted behavior? Where do we stop? Will you be ok with teachers turning a blind eye on students raping other students in detention for not doing their homework or for misbehaving in the classroom? Answer me.
The fact that many people think it is OK to make and laugh at prison rape jokes sickens me. What would you think if I made rape jokes about your 90 year old grandma? Or your ten year old son? Or your wife? If that is not ok, neither is prison rape of adult men.
I am appalled to realize many people think prison rape is part and parcel of the "prison experience". Should rape be used as a deterrent to unwanted behavior? Where do we stop? Will you be ok with teachers turning a blind eye on students raping other students in detention for not doing their homework or for misbehaving in the classroom? Answer me.
I don't think that this is a very reasonable response - making a joke and caring about something are not mutually exclusive.
Comedians regularly make jokes about some of the most abhorrent things that happen in the world. Racism, pedophilia, murder. Do you think that these comics therefore agree with racism, pedophilia and murder? No, of course not. They're making jokes.
It may not have been funny, and it may not have been appropriate (we're not in a comedy club after all), but it doesn't mean esquilax will be OK with "teachers turning a blind eye on students raping other students in detention for not doing their homework".
Basically, calm down, he made a bad joke, it's not the end of the world.
Comedians regularly make jokes about some of the most abhorrent things that happen in the world. Racism, pedophilia, murder. Do you think that these comics therefore agree with racism, pedophilia and murder? No, of course not. They're making jokes.
It may not have been funny, and it may not have been appropriate (we're not in a comedy club after all), but it doesn't mean esquilax will be OK with "teachers turning a blind eye on students raping other students in detention for not doing their homework".
Basically, calm down, he made a bad joke, it's not the end of the world.
>Comedians regularly make jokes about some of the most abhorrent things that happen in the world.
Comedians who joke about raping women generally get booed and chastised and otherwise shunned. Comedians who joke about prison rape generally don't. Regardless of which you think is the appropriate response, it would be nice to see a little consistency.
Comedians who joke about raping women generally get booed and chastised and otherwise shunned. Comedians who joke about prison rape generally don't. Regardless of which you think is the appropriate response, it would be nice to see a little consistency.
This being said, I would like to point out that I also made light of violent, sexual abuse in prison in the grandparent post - I deserve the downvotes too.
I don't think prison rape is OK. But my jokes aren't going to change that. Your sanctimonious bullcrap isn't either.
I apologize for my rudeness. It was uncalled for and I really didn't mean it that way. I didn't mean to target you or put you on the spot. I understand that reforming people's views takes time. (I visited a freshman class in a South Asian university. If I was from there I presume I'd most likely think that cat calling women as they entered the classroom was normal and acceptable behavior.
I think we have a similar problem here. We've grown up with these jokes and lived with them for so long that it just doesn't bother us. I am glad you agree that prison rape is not OK. I am not trying to be sanctimonious (I actually had to look up that word). I just feel so helpless about this situation.
I think we have a similar problem here. We've grown up with these jokes and lived with them for so long that it just doesn't bother us. I am glad you agree that prison rape is not OK. I am not trying to be sanctimonious (I actually had to look up that word). I just feel so helpless about this situation.
You can certainly feel the way you want to, but sticks and stones. Jokes make light of plenty of despicable things. That's the point of a joke: to make light of something.
A joke is a joke. Specifically naming someone is not a joke. It is personal and implies a thinly veiled threat. It's not apples to apples at all unless you are the personification of the concept of prison rape.
A joke is a joke. Specifically naming someone is not a joke. It is personal and implies a thinly veiled threat. It's not apples to apples at all unless you are the personification of the concept of prison rape.
IMO prisons should be about taking away peoples freedom, not about treating them like animals. But many people seem to be more concerned about their utility or lack thereof, for example if having a death sentence for death convicts costs more than life in prison or vice versa. Or the idea of having them work as effectively slave labour.
Do you live in the real world? Prisons aren't safe because they are full of violent offenders! It's pretty obvious that when you densely pack the bottom tier of society into small spaces that the outcome will be a whole load of violence - of all forms, rape (which is about power and control), gangs (which is core to the human species), fights and murder.
Sorry, I have never been to prison so I don't really know. The statistics I read boggles my mind.
What can we do to help deter prisoner abuse?
What can we do to help deter prisoner abuse?
>What can we do to help deter prisoner abuse?
#1 on the list would be to stop sending so many people to prison, one way or another. Then you can afford to spend more resources per capita to better rehabilitate/reform/etc. the smaller number of inmates that remain.
#1 on the list would be to stop sending so many people to prison, one way or another. Then you can afford to spend more resources per capita to better rehabilitate/reform/etc. the smaller number of inmates that remain.
It sounds like something that's going to divide people on the moral compass but in the end you don't need to ask someone's permission before you can have an opinion of them and share it with other people.
Technology changes the scale, though. Gossiping with your friend about your ex is different from sharing your opinion of said ex with thousands of people.
How on earth could this app get funding? If it were a male->female app there would have been an outrage about it.
Moral issues aside, I can see a lot of libel lawsuits (at least in the UK) springing up because of this app. There are enough rumours in the world as it is, we do not need apps that profit from people rating the opposite sex and spreading rumours about them.
Moral issues aside, I can see a lot of libel lawsuits (at least in the UK) springing up because of this app. There are enough rumours in the world as it is, we do not need apps that profit from people rating the opposite sex and spreading rumours about them.
> How on earth could this app get funding?
You sound like you expect investors to somehow be more guided by ethics than other people. Ever consider that it might be the other way around?
You sound like you expect investors to somehow be more guided by ethics than other people. Ever consider that it might be the other way around?
How on earth could this app get funding?
The investors expect it to make more money than they put in.
The investors expect it to make more money than they put in.
outrage = interets = traction = eyeballs, basically
The connected nature of the internet and mobile devices reduces the cost of disseminating information. It doesn't discriminate about what information is made easier to share. Expecting app stores to play gate keepers sets a dangerous precedent. Imagine if the internet was an AOL app store and Steve Case had the final opinion on everything that would be made available to their users.
You just have to roll with the punches and adjust. It's fine to be appalled at stuff like this, it goes over the top whenever you want someone to have authority to bring a stop to it for you. Adjusting your expectations and dealing with your objections are a better option than giving someone you can't really trust such long lasting power just to temporarily please your ego.
In two days you're going to forget about this app, but then you'll probably have found something else on HN to be outraged about. Maybe it will be the app store gate keeper shutting down an app you liked.
You just have to roll with the punches and adjust. It's fine to be appalled at stuff like this, it goes over the top whenever you want someone to have authority to bring a stop to it for you. Adjusting your expectations and dealing with your objections are a better option than giving someone you can't really trust such long lasting power just to temporarily please your ego.
In two days you're going to forget about this app, but then you'll probably have found something else on HN to be outraged about. Maybe it will be the app store gate keeper shutting down an app you liked.
Tried signing up for it with a fake Facebook account with gender set to female, and it did not work. I still think this is really effed up - but honestly was genuinely curious to see what is on this thing! Kind of to see what girls I know that would even use this.
I can't wait to see this buried beneath older stories with fewer points and comments, the way every story on sexism gets buried here.
Oh wait this is about how awful women are to men. Never mind.
Oh wait this is about how awful women are to men. Never mind.
Are... are you serious? Or is it just trolling? I'm not an obsessive HN reader but I see sexism stories show up at the top of the HN list all the time. To the point that I've taken it as one of the odd HN cultural quirks, that you all like to discuss it obsessively. Claiming they get "buried" is contrary to all evidence I've seen, though I guess if you have statistics I'm willing to be proven wrong.
What are you talking about? I see at least a few stories per week on sexism in the top 10. Given that this place is more technology/startup-related than "let's talk about society", that's a pretty good frequency for just one of many valid social causes.
Next time you see a story about sexism against women (redundant but needs the clarification here anyway), watch its movement. Yeah, it may get up in the top for a bit, but you can watch stories that are older with fewer points and comments move up above it. Happens every time.
I've seen this effect in other "heated" discussions, and I wonder if it's the effect of moderation. Primarily, what happens to a thread as the percentage of moderated messages increases? Is that metric involved in the positioning? I could see a topic like sexism (or emacs v. vi) getting an inordinate amount of moderation, and thus might be flagged more often, moving it down the list. Maybe that has nothing to do with it, but I've seen this effect before.
Why would any sexism story not get buried? This is Hacker News, not Tumblr or SRS.
This is bad.
I don't see how it would prevent a man to create the fake account of a woman and post advantageous stuff about him (like the mentioned "big feet").
Who cares? Would you want to date a girl who uses a gossip app anyway? No. Hell no.
If this helps steer the superficial airheads in another direction, I'd only have one thing to say to Chong: "Thanks!" Saves us the trouble of finding out the hard way, at least.
If this helps steer the superficial airheads in another direction, I'd only have one thing to say to Chong: "Thanks!" Saves us the trouble of finding out the hard way, at least.
> If this helps steer the superficial airheads in another direction
That's only true if you don't have what gossip girls like; but attraction is definitely not a symmetrical relationship.
That's only true if you don't have what gossip girls like; but attraction is definitely not a symmetrical relationship.
What about a girl who is acquaintances with a gossip girl who uses the app and searches for guy's they're dating, and lets them know about whatever is mentioned on there?
I don't get why everyone is so paranoid about this. What are people trying to hide?
Among many other good reasons, it's an app whose nature is determined by the same kind of dynamics that govern many restaurant and product reviews.
Most of the time, satisfied customers don't bother to review the product or service because a certain psychological barrier first needs to be overcome (i.e. "writing this review is worth my time because it's SO good/bad"). Middle-of-the-road reviews rarely make it through, and when they do, they are typically short and uninsightful. Reviews that draw the most attention are those at the extremes.
Human beings are generally more prone to extreme dissatisfaction than extreme satisfaction. It's in our nature. When is the last time you thought, "Man, that person drives SO well!" or "My bill is SO low this month!"?
In the case of Lulu, the comments will heavily skew to the negative since "satisfied customers" will likely still be dating the guy (and thus not posting reviews) and dissatisfied ones will have every incentive to write vindictive comments in a last attempt to "get even". And those who are initially angry with the guy but later change their minds are likely to write a review during the angry phase and forget about it later, when their opinion of him has moderated. The end result is that most of the guys on the site will be portrayed in a much more negative light than is actually merited.
In terms of its user base, it's really just catering to the female equivalent of guys who engage in "slut shaming". But it's more socially acceptable because the app targets men instead of women, and men are expected to be more psychologically durable.
Most of the time, satisfied customers don't bother to review the product or service because a certain psychological barrier first needs to be overcome (i.e. "writing this review is worth my time because it's SO good/bad"). Middle-of-the-road reviews rarely make it through, and when they do, they are typically short and uninsightful. Reviews that draw the most attention are those at the extremes.
Human beings are generally more prone to extreme dissatisfaction than extreme satisfaction. It's in our nature. When is the last time you thought, "Man, that person drives SO well!" or "My bill is SO low this month!"?
In the case of Lulu, the comments will heavily skew to the negative since "satisfied customers" will likely still be dating the guy (and thus not posting reviews) and dissatisfied ones will have every incentive to write vindictive comments in a last attempt to "get even". And those who are initially angry with the guy but later change their minds are likely to write a review during the angry phase and forget about it later, when their opinion of him has moderated. The end result is that most of the guys on the site will be portrayed in a much more negative light than is actually merited.
In terms of its user base, it's really just catering to the female equivalent of guys who engage in "slut shaming". But it's more socially acceptable because the app targets men instead of women, and men are expected to be more psychologically durable.
It has nothing about hiding anything, it has to do with people lying or telling "half-truths" (being dishonest) / stories skewed by anger, etc.. Many people are very sensitive and influenced people are by small / short stories whether they are even slightly negative or positive in nature.
Why not? It make sense as a strategy to select a good partner.
Where are all the feminists now?
This is the perfect example of double-standards implied by women. Imagine an alternative scenario where men could rate their female counterparts on the basis of their 'assets' as defined by some vague methodology. Imagine how much fire under men would be, with ALL men being broadly labelled as sexists because this app was targeted at men.
I am seriously asking - Where are all the feminists now? And their blind-folded feminism?? Especially the ones who know this app..
This is the perfect example of double-standards implied by women. Imagine an alternative scenario where men could rate their female counterparts on the basis of their 'assets' as defined by some vague methodology. Imagine how much fire under men would be, with ALL men being broadly labelled as sexists because this app was targeted at men.
I am seriously asking - Where are all the feminists now? And their blind-folded feminism?? Especially the ones who know this app..
They're here:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/02/07/lulu_app_for...
and here:
http://jezebel.com/5982867/the-creepy-new-yelp-for-boys-and-...
Do you not know how to use google?
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/02/07/lulu_app_for...
and here:
http://jezebel.com/5982867/the-creepy-new-yelp-for-boys-and-...
Do you not know how to use google?
Nope, a couple of unpopular blog posts is not something I wanted to see. I could have googled those myself. I was expecting a 'rage' unleashed - with just one question - 'How dare they do this!?' "How dare they do this to Gender 'x'" The same rage you saw previously when this happened to women.
Haha, Slate and Jezebel are unpopular. Nice trolling.
(Oh crap, now I'm feeding the troll now, aren't I?)
(Oh crap, now I'm feeding the troll now, aren't I?)
Maybe I shouldn't feed you?
Now, I am a troll because I oppose your narrow views suggesting 'Feminists are always right. Men are wrong'
Because you posted two links in response to my argument that feminists don't commit to drama when it's the other side that's being hurt. But you paste just two blog posts that never got popular (I stand by this) trying to justify the fact that feminists did create an issue out of this.
My question is "Where's the drama?"
I think to understand the popularity I'm talking about, you need to go back and read out about some recent incidents where a company was brought under fire and posts were written by dozens and dozens of blogs and authors about an incident where a woman got offended because she over-heard a private conversation and about another incident where a company was under fire because they had hired PROFESSIONAL models to promote their hard disks. Now that is immense popularity, not just two blog posts that never got as much attention as described above. My point is, don't favor one gender over the other.
Also, I said unpopular blog posts and not just unpopular blogs. I hope you take some English lessons part-time.
I generally keep track of such tech issues. I never got to read those posts you linked above. If it were really popular as you claim, then I would have seen some twitter hash tags and some re-posts of the article by prominent media organizations.
Now, I am a troll because I oppose your narrow views suggesting 'Feminists are always right. Men are wrong'
Because you posted two links in response to my argument that feminists don't commit to drama when it's the other side that's being hurt. But you paste just two blog posts that never got popular (I stand by this) trying to justify the fact that feminists did create an issue out of this.
My question is "Where's the drama?"
I think to understand the popularity I'm talking about, you need to go back and read out about some recent incidents where a company was brought under fire and posts were written by dozens and dozens of blogs and authors about an incident where a woman got offended because she over-heard a private conversation and about another incident where a company was under fire because they had hired PROFESSIONAL models to promote their hard disks. Now that is immense popularity, not just two blog posts that never got as much attention as described above. My point is, don't favor one gender over the other.
Also, I said unpopular blog posts and not just unpopular blogs. I hope you take some English lessons part-time.
I generally keep track of such tech issues. I never got to read those posts you linked above. If it were really popular as you claim, then I would have seen some twitter hash tags and some re-posts of the article by prominent media organizations.
No, you're the troll because you don't appear to know any feminists, or what feminists read.
Jezebel and Slate's XX Factor are definitely prominent within the feminist blogosphere (if there is such a thing).
You're also trolling by comparing a startup to the clusterfuck that was the Pycon incident. They are just simply not similar events. There have been creepy dating or hookup apps which have come up on Hacker News in the past. And this conversation (your trolling aside) very much resembled them.
So, please, tell us more about what you think feminists should be doing in detail. What should I as a feminist (someone who believes in equality more generally) have done?
Jezebel and Slate's XX Factor are definitely prominent within the feminist blogosphere (if there is such a thing).
You're also trolling by comparing a startup to the clusterfuck that was the Pycon incident. They are just simply not similar events. There have been creepy dating or hookup apps which have come up on Hacker News in the past. And this conversation (your trolling aside) very much resembled them.
So, please, tell us more about what you think feminists should be doing in detail. What should I as a feminist (someone who believes in equality more generally) have done?
>Jezebel and Slate's XX Factor are definitely prominent within the feminist blogosphere (if there is such a thing).
You just didn't understand what I said, did you? Re-read my comment above.
You just didn't understand what I said, did you? Re-read my comment above.
Why bother? you're still wrong.
http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1c4e1o/as_a...
http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1c4e1o/as_a...
I can't speak for anybody else, but all Gawker sites are in my killfile. Does a feminist _tabloid_ count? I don't know.
I think the OP is asking where the "shitstorm" is.
Why would there be a shitstorm? That only happens when the self-proclaimed defenders of the male gender feels threatened by someone challenging their world view.
Exactly. Where's the twitter hashhtags and the feminism organizations[1] jumping around with 'yaay! we gotta chance to make this a shitstorm!'[2]?
[1] http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/2013/01/ces-booth-babes...
[2] http://venturebeat.com/2013/03/20/playhaven-developer-fired-...
[1] http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/2013/01/ces-booth-babes...
[2] http://venturebeat.com/2013/03/20/playhaven-developer-fired-...
Did you read that jezebel article? I'm not sure how you think "lol reddit r misogyny" is an example of feminists standing up for equal rights for men as they so often claim they do.
Right here. Pissed off that this app exists. But recognizing that it's a lower priority than a heck of a lot of other things in our society. (I've got a top level post going into this in more detail.) Opposing this type of service looks to me like a classic part of feminism, no question.
If you have specific evidence that "the feminists" do not oppose this sort of thing, now would be a great time to share.
If you have specific evidence that "the feminists" do not oppose this sort of thing, now would be a great time to share.
First of all, there is no such thing as feminists in the way you imply: it is category, not a strict set of beliefs. Some types of feminism endorse this sort of thing, because they are sex positive - they would be ok with any app that allows the ranking of people in sex terms, some would have a problem with this app because it doesn't include women rankings. Some would have a problem with a men ranking women app but not this one, because when you go down to the local bar (in most places) you can hear men loudly talking about what women are sluts and which are sweet girls, and if how to get them, but women having those conversations are loudly labeled snobby or bitches - so it evens out the labeling.
Basically I'm saying, you're trying to set fire to a strawman.
Basically I'm saying, you're trying to set fire to a strawman.
>I am seriously asking - Where are all the feminists now? Especially the ones who know this app..
Don't worry, they are certainly ready with the argument that it is the "patriarchy" that makes this app acceptable but not the reverse.
Don't worry, they are certainly ready with the argument that it is the "patriarchy" that makes this app acceptable but not the reverse.
As I said to the previous poster, if you have a shred of evidence that "the feminists" consider this app to be acceptable (not just "less bad"), you should share it now.
If you don't, then you might want to pause for a few minutes and seriously ask yourself why you said what you did. Because from my experience, opposing a service like this is a core value of feminism. (It may not be seen as a top priority, but that's a radically different statement.)
If you don't, then you might want to pause for a few minutes and seriously ask yourself why you said what you did. Because from my experience, opposing a service like this is a core value of feminism. (It may not be seen as a top priority, but that's a radically different statement.)
I think you and duaneb have misunderstood my comment. I do not mean that they will say that it is acceptable to them because of the patriarchy, they will say that it is acceptable to society because of the patriarchy. In other words, they will blame the existence and acceptance of this app on the patriarchy and not the individuals who created it and accept it.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. (I'm not sure that I understand your point, but at least it's not the basic misunderstanding of feminism that I thought it was.)
(This is a reflection of the social influences that feminism labels "the patriarchy", right? Even though it's individual people making choices that implement those social trends. I've never considered the two to be mutually exclusive.)
(This is a reflection of the social influences that feminism labels "the patriarchy", right? Even though it's individual people making choices that implement those social trends. I've never considered the two to be mutually exclusive.)
Men created and promoted this app, and curious people it is targeted to are going to try it. What is your point?
Most (all?) women I know who identify as feminist activists would not support this app, and I highly doubt anyone who would is really a feminist. This is equally harmful to women.
I thought this was amazing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80
"A woman is rude and abusive? PATRIRACHY!"
"A woman is rude and abusive? PATRIRACHY!"
I'm a feminist. I'm not outraged. If I was outraged because destructive things exist, I would be a bundle of rage 24 hours a day and never get anything done. What enrages me is sensible people supporting sexism, and no one I respect supports this.
I also am not driven by blind principle, I focus on practicality. As a futurist, I don't see this catching on, let alone abuse of if becoming a big problem. Why would I put energy into solving a vaguely possible future violence when there is documented violence happening right now?
If this app were supporting and accelerating an existing tragedy of men being unable to control their reputations, this might be worth getting angry about.
I also am not driven by blind principle, I focus on practicality. As a futurist, I don't see this catching on, let alone abuse of if becoming a big problem. Why would I put energy into solving a vaguely possible future violence when there is documented violence happening right now?
If this app were supporting and accelerating an existing tragedy of men being unable to control their reputations, this might be worth getting angry about.
Some of your points are valid.
With all due respect, you should be outraged too, no? Because a LOT of feminists were outraged when similar things happened to women. My question is exactly addressed to you: Why are you outraged when it happens to gender X and why do you dismiss it when it happens to gender Y, saying things like "it's not a big problem", "we have many other things to worry about in the society" (as another commenter posted, etc.)
Assuming that gender X can withstand all this but not gender Y is sexism by itself. I appreciate your positive look on life, in general, but you are not being fair here.
>As a futurist, I don't see this catching on, let alone abuse of if becoming a big problem.
This is exactly the kind of mentality we hate. Supporting something based on the drama around it is the worst thing a feminist like you can do. Does this mean isolated incidents with no drama can be safely ignored? I think it's a poor methodology.
This is not about violence. It's about the identities of people who never opted for something. So, you're saying something along the lines of
"I don't care because it's not a serious issue (yet). And you have to deal with it."
Which is unfair. How would you like to see your face on a pornographic site uploaded without your consent? Wouldn't you and other feminists be outraged? That's exactly the feeling we've got right now, because it's our identity at stake. And you can't just ask us to live with it, just because there's no drama around it.
As a feminist, if this is the mindset with which you and your friends are working towards sexism, then, I think you would be contributing more to sexism than eradicating it. And this is disgusting. Someone should probably write a blog post about this mindset, so people like you can stop calling yourselves feminists, representing other genuine feminists in the wrong way.
With all due respect, you should be outraged too, no? Because a LOT of feminists were outraged when similar things happened to women. My question is exactly addressed to you: Why are you outraged when it happens to gender X and why do you dismiss it when it happens to gender Y, saying things like "it's not a big problem", "we have many other things to worry about in the society" (as another commenter posted, etc.)
Assuming that gender X can withstand all this but not gender Y is sexism by itself. I appreciate your positive look on life, in general, but you are not being fair here.
>As a futurist, I don't see this catching on, let alone abuse of if becoming a big problem.
This is exactly the kind of mentality we hate. Supporting something based on the drama around it is the worst thing a feminist like you can do. Does this mean isolated incidents with no drama can be safely ignored? I think it's a poor methodology.
This is not about violence. It's about the identities of people who never opted for something. So, you're saying something along the lines of
"I don't care because it's not a serious issue (yet). And you have to deal with it."
Which is unfair. How would you like to see your face on a pornographic site uploaded without your consent? Wouldn't you and other feminists be outraged? That's exactly the feeling we've got right now, because it's our identity at stake. And you can't just ask us to live with it, just because there's no drama around it.
As a feminist, if this is the mindset with which you and your friends are working towards sexism, then, I think you would be contributing more to sexism than eradicating it. And this is disgusting. Someone should probably write a blog post about this mindset, so people like you can stop calling yourselves feminists, representing other genuine feminists in the wrong way.
The effects of male and female versions of this application would not be the same. Different subjects, in various senses of the word.
And you don't have to imagine that alternative scenario. It's how men generally treat women.
And you don't have to imagine that alternative scenario. It's how men generally treat women.
>It's how men generally treat women.
Congratulations, you've now been promoted to sexism level - infinity.
What you said above is sexism by itself. You are labeling an entire gender of species for what a percentage of species is accused of doing.
I'm disgusted by people like you who favor one gender over the other and my comment exactly addresses people like you!
Congratulations, you've now been promoted to sexism level - infinity.
What you said above is sexism by itself. You are labeling an entire gender of species for what a percentage of species is accused of doing.
I'm disgusted by people like you who favor one gender over the other and my comment exactly addresses people like you!
It's how men generally treat women.
Do you have anything to back this up?
Do you have anything to back this up?
You are looking for feminists to be outraged on Hacker News? Yes, a place known to attract many female users. Especially women that would encounter Lulu.
Or not. I don't think this is something that my friends or I would ever encounter outside reading Jezebel, which legitimately is a popular site for women. It seems like a gross app to me, one that objectifies men and has the potential to be abused by women with a grudge.
Or not. I don't think this is something that my friends or I would ever encounter outside reading Jezebel, which legitimately is a popular site for women. It seems like a gross app to me, one that objectifies men and has the potential to be abused by women with a grudge.
Here.
And I find all this hilarious.
And I find all this hilarious.
This app is disturbing. It also wants storage, location, network, contacts, phone call permissions hence I highly doubt it is as private as its creators portray it as.
The real tragedy is that it will drive mate selection further towards those qualities that are most fleeting -- looks and wealth.
I will now indulge myself with a chuckle as I think of all those women who will wake up one day years into the future and realize that #Big.Feet = #Cheater and #FatBankroll = #AlwaysAwayOnBusiness.
Looks decline for women, but men start to look "distinguished".
It depends a LOT on what the opposite sexes look for in a partner - men want something young and pretty to impress their friends and not say something too stupid, women want a dominant man who pays for stuff and makes decisions.
It depends a LOT on what the opposite sexes look for in a partner - men want something young and pretty to impress their friends and not say something too stupid, women want a dominant man who pays for stuff and makes decisions.
Millennia of imbalance towards men having the upper hand in just about all societies is a plain fact.
However, progress and equality is not the reversal of an imbalance - it's the leveling of a playing field and accepting that to achieve real meaningful change, the notion of retribution must be taken off the table.
Either it's ok for both genders to have a service like this, or it is not ok for either gender to have a service like this. End of story.
Personally I'd find any site like this reprehensible for either gender (or any other biologically or socially discernable metric, for that matter).
However, progress and equality is not the reversal of an imbalance - it's the leveling of a playing field and accepting that to achieve real meaningful change, the notion of retribution must be taken off the table.
Either it's ok for both genders to have a service like this, or it is not ok for either gender to have a service like this. End of story.
Personally I'd find any site like this reprehensible for either gender (or any other biologically or socially discernable metric, for that matter).
Meh, whatever. It seems like a lot of social media - an online, permanent record of an evening in the bar.
I get the impression that this is a "terrible thing" because it will actively hinder the dating chances of some people without redress or knowledge. (Which is exactly like an evening in the bar)
Like privacy, our reputations are taking a digital battering. But just as people watch reality tv and boo at the evil ones, they also learn that they are booing five minutes edited conversation from 24 hours of life - lulu will carry on and so will gossip and bitchiness, but we will learn to adjust to the new levels of transparency - it may be a rough time, but it will happen.
Nb I you can use SQL injection to get a hot date, and don't live up to the injected criteria, trust me, that story will not need lulu to spread
I get the impression that this is a "terrible thing" because it will actively hinder the dating chances of some people without redress or knowledge. (Which is exactly like an evening in the bar)
Like privacy, our reputations are taking a digital battering. But just as people watch reality tv and boo at the evil ones, they also learn that they are booing five minutes edited conversation from 24 hours of life - lulu will carry on and so will gossip and bitchiness, but we will learn to adjust to the new levels of transparency - it may be a rough time, but it will happen.
Nb I you can use SQL injection to get a hot date, and don't live up to the injected criteria, trust me, that story will not need lulu to spread
I thought they were talking about the self publishing company at first...
Oddly, I don't mind this. I'd like a version for guys as well though, mostly to see the rage that would come up from the extreme feminists.
What kind of "extreme feminists" are you talking about, and why would you be glad to "see the rage"? It sounds like you'd like to verify your opinion on feminism by considering the arguments of a fringe minority.
This is good. I wouldn't care to date or even consider someone who would resort to such shallow methods to figure out if I was "worth it". That is, assuming something negative about me would be said. I can't really see how this would be anything but negative towards the men. He would be an ex for a reason. Jgrahamc said it well- if you are using this app, you deserve who you get.
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I have two reactions to this, and I think most people who care about sexism in our society would agree with both:
1. From the sound of it, this is a horribly sexist product that dehumanizes men and reinforces traditional gender roles. I hope to one day see a world where an app like this couldn't exist because there would be no demand (and because everyone would be disgusted by the basic concept).
2. Actively opposing this product is a lower priority than many other issues in our society. While this app does harm the men it targets, that harm occurs against a social backdrop that does not in general emphasize treating men this way. (That is, such attitudes exist, but they are rarely the primary lens through which men are viewed.) In contrast, a similar app targeting women would reinforce negative social norms that are often the primary way in which women are viewed. (Consider how often articles about women in politics comment on their appearance and clothing choices, as compared to how often articles about men do so.)
In short, every feminist that I know would be unhappy about this system, but there's no hypocrisy in those same people being less upset about it than about similar treatment of women. Yes, both men and women suffer unfair treatment because of how our society deals with gender. But women have much farther to go.
1. From the sound of it, this is a horribly sexist product that dehumanizes men and reinforces traditional gender roles. I hope to one day see a world where an app like this couldn't exist because there would be no demand (and because everyone would be disgusted by the basic concept).
2. Actively opposing this product is a lower priority than many other issues in our society. While this app does harm the men it targets, that harm occurs against a social backdrop that does not in general emphasize treating men this way. (That is, such attitudes exist, but they are rarely the primary lens through which men are viewed.) In contrast, a similar app targeting women would reinforce negative social norms that are often the primary way in which women are viewed. (Consider how often articles about women in politics comment on their appearance and clothing choices, as compared to how often articles about men do so.)
In short, every feminist that I know would be unhappy about this system, but there's no hypocrisy in those same people being less upset about it than about similar treatment of women. Yes, both men and women suffer unfair treatment because of how our society deals with gender. But women have much farther to go.
...but there's no hypocrisy in those same people being less upset about it than about similar treatment of women.
You clearly believe this, but that's what it is, your belief. I disagree; women may have "much farther to go," but that doesn't mean this is somehow intrinsically less important to people who really do support equality.
There is nothing wrong with establishing your own priorities. Calling this a lower one with the justification that you are more concerned about women's issues, instead of issues of sexual equality as a whole, would have been more honest. Less benevolent, but then nobody's perfect: Better to be clearly flawed, like the rest of us, than to fabricate some sort of intrinsic dominance where a true egalitarian would find none.
You clearly believe this, but that's what it is, your belief. I disagree; women may have "much farther to go," but that doesn't mean this is somehow intrinsically less important to people who really do support equality.
There is nothing wrong with establishing your own priorities. Calling this a lower one with the justification that you are more concerned about women's issues, instead of issues of sexual equality as a whole, would have been more honest. Less benevolent, but then nobody's perfect: Better to be clearly flawed, like the rest of us, than to fabricate some sort of intrinsic dominance where a true egalitarian would find none.
I may be misunderstanding you here, so I'd appreciate a bit of clarification. The way I'm reading your argument, it sounds to me like your claim is something like, "Context doesn't matter: similar forms of harm necessarily carry similar moral weight." Thus, this app is intrinsically just as serious of an issue as a similar app rating women would be.
But that reasoning doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see how you couldn't apply the same argument to say "Regardless of context, it's always equally bad to violently shove someone," ignoring the difference between shoving someone standing on flat ground and shoving someone standing at the edge of a cliff. Of course I would be more upset about shoving in some contexts than in others.
So my claim is that the same reasoning applies here. This app absolutely does harm men, but the position of men in society is such that the resulting harm is fairly contained: this service is notable precisely because it's unusual. On the other hand, a similar app for rating women would be yet another contribution to a vast complex of social attitudes and institutions that combine to have a powerful oppressive effect. My sense is that network effects would reinforce and magnify the harm that such an app would do to women.
So yes, when evaluating my desire for sexual equality as a whole, I find myself more pressingly concerned about women's issues. But from my perspective, that's not an arbitrary preference but a rational choice.
But that reasoning doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see how you couldn't apply the same argument to say "Regardless of context, it's always equally bad to violently shove someone," ignoring the difference between shoving someone standing on flat ground and shoving someone standing at the edge of a cliff. Of course I would be more upset about shoving in some contexts than in others.
So my claim is that the same reasoning applies here. This app absolutely does harm men, but the position of men in society is such that the resulting harm is fairly contained: this service is notable precisely because it's unusual. On the other hand, a similar app for rating women would be yet another contribution to a vast complex of social attitudes and institutions that combine to have a powerful oppressive effect. My sense is that network effects would reinforce and magnify the harm that such an app would do to women.
So yes, when evaluating my desire for sexual equality as a whole, I find myself more pressingly concerned about women's issues. But from my perspective, that's not an arbitrary preference but a rational choice.
The problem I have with your reasoning is that we are not talking about an act that would have dramatically worse results were it directed toward women. In fact, because there is a much more vehement reaction to anything oppressive to women, a similar "shove" would actually result in more pro-feminine reaction than this one will pro-masculine, so in my opinion, you're ignoring the realities of activism, which will turn that shove on its head.
Like I said... I don't find your view "wrong" in any absolute sense. I find it mildly objectionable that it's arbitrary (which is fine) while hiding behind claimed rationality (not as fine).
Like I said... I don't find your view "wrong" in any absolute sense. I find it mildly objectionable that it's arbitrary (which is fine) while hiding behind claimed rationality (not as fine).
Yeah, lets blame the males, those horrible, horrible people who oppress women by being in prison, homeless or committing suicide (or, in the past, dying on the battlefields on Europe by the millions).
Try to read a little more about how genders really work before you claim that men are the only oppressors: the top of society is mostly men, but so is the bottom.
The survival rate of third-class female passengers on the Titanic were higher than the survival rate of first-class male passengers: does that sound like oppression for you?
Try to read a little more about how genders really work before you claim that men are the only oppressors: the top of society is mostly men, but so is the bottom.
The survival rate of third-class female passengers on the Titanic were higher than the survival rate of first-class male passengers: does that sound like oppression for you?
I did not say "Men are oppressors" or "Blame men". I said, in a nutshell, "Blame our social structures that tend to favor men." There's a very real difference there in terms of the moral claims being made.
And yes, feminism is also concerned about the ways in which this social structure hurts men, very much so. It's just that the consensus is that it hurts women more, so today there are larger and more immediate gains to be made by spending more energy fixing those harms to women.
And yes, feminism is also concerned about the ways in which this social structure hurts men, very much so. It's just that the consensus is that it hurts women more, so today there are larger and more immediate gains to be made by spending more energy fixing those harms to women.
You're wrong about the consensus thing, from the perspective of people who use words like 'patriarchy' in a off-hand no-explanation-required fashion.
An appeal to consensus - never mind being logical, consistent or mindful of context - would be an improvement over where these debates with patriarcy-theory indoctrinated feminists always end up, which is 'you're wrong by definition'. That is, sexism can only hurt women because that's what the word has been defined to mean. It's utterly ludicrous and intellectually bankrupt approach to dialogue of course.
An appeal to consensus - never mind being logical, consistent or mindful of context - would be an improvement over where these debates with patriarcy-theory indoctrinated feminists always end up, which is 'you're wrong by definition'. That is, sexism can only hurt women because that's what the word has been defined to mean. It's utterly ludicrous and intellectually bankrupt approach to dialogue of course.
And I just showed you that they don't tend to favor men -- how was men favored by WWI? 16 million men died -- I doubt a thousand women did.
At first I was: Well, that is sexist.
But then I was: I just need a few fake reviews ...
But then I was: I just need a few fake reviews ...
And you get idiot airheads as your partner? My only thought allow for a others to check if someone uses Lulu or not.
That's a great filter, right there.
That's a great filter, right there.
As a notorious womanizer, this app enrages me. I will have no choice now but to become a caring, sensitive, one-woman man. Damn you Lulu!!!
I'm amazed at the kinds of apps which exist and get exposure. This is stuff which might have been fun in high school, but there are actual adults using this.
Not to mention the insane double standard. I'd love to see a man make a similar app for rating women this way. I'm sure there would be news reports and tons of angry feminists flooding the airwaves.
Not to mention the insane double standard. I'd love to see a man make a similar app for rating women this way. I'm sure there would be news reports and tons of angry feminists flooding the airwaves.
Try being a woman on the Internet — anywhere on the Internet, not this one idiot site — and then talk about insane double-standards.
When every other online interaction involves at least a few men commenting on your fuckability or how much of a 'bitch' you are, or going digging through all of your previous posts or even tracking down your Facebook account so that they can publicly share your body with all of the other men reading, and you have no recourse lest you be labelled an 'angry feminist', you will find that one single Web site where women treat men in a similar fashion does not inspire the same level of passion that it is doing here.
It is a terrible Web site, obviously, but i am envious of the social position that leads to such a complete lack of irony and self-reflection as seen in these comments.
When every other online interaction involves at least a few men commenting on your fuckability or how much of a 'bitch' you are, or going digging through all of your previous posts or even tracking down your Facebook account so that they can publicly share your body with all of the other men reading, and you have no recourse lest you be labelled an 'angry feminist', you will find that one single Web site where women treat men in a similar fashion does not inspire the same level of passion that it is doing here.
It is a terrible Web site, obviously, but i am envious of the social position that leads to such a complete lack of irony and self-reflection as seen in these comments.
The fact that other double standards exist in other parts of the internet isn't what I was debating. I won't argue with you that there is an inherit double standard among both sexes, but seeing as this thread is about the website in question -- that's the one I was addressing.
Also, in no way should double standards and sexism lead to more double standards and sexism.
Also, in no way should double standards and sexism lead to more double standards and sexism.
If you had simply decried the site's 'sexism' i would not have taken issue with your post. What you'd said was that it was an 'insane double standard'.
The definition of a double-standard is 'the application of different sets of principles for similar situations, or two different people in the same situation'.
Your use of the term 'insane double standard' (not to mention the other comments here using similar language) therefore suggests that the existence of one single Web site dedicated to women objectifying men is a 'similar situation' to living every single day in a culture where only the OPPOSITE is actually a real problem.
And as much as i can identify with the distaste over this Web site, i find that that implication is laughable and the emotional outrage over it is therefore severely misplaced.
The definition of a double-standard is 'the application of different sets of principles for similar situations, or two different people in the same situation'.
Your use of the term 'insane double standard' (not to mention the other comments here using similar language) therefore suggests that the existence of one single Web site dedicated to women objectifying men is a 'similar situation' to living every single day in a culture where only the OPPOSITE is actually a real problem.
And as much as i can identify with the distaste over this Web site, i find that that implication is laughable and the emotional outrage over it is therefore severely misplaced.
You've managed to say what I was thinking.
I understand why people dislike websites like this, or the Diet Coke ads (men stripping their shirts off while women ogle) and I'd join in the criticism. But the ranting sometimes feels so overblown.
I understand why people dislike websites like this, or the Diet Coke ads (men stripping their shirts off while women ogle) and I'd join in the criticism. But the ranting sometimes feels so overblown.
I guess I've misused the term then, I apologize. Instead, I should have said that the website is sexist, immature and a waste of bytes.
Thanks for correcting me.
Thanks for correcting me.
The older I get, the more I realize that a large percentage of the population never actually graduates from high school.
I bet it's just a matter of time before they piss off the wrong person, get hacked or DDoSed out of existence. And I sincerely hope that the bitch who owns the company never succeeds at another product again.
Too much vitriol.
Playing to the base instincts of the hoi polloi is rarely a bad business strategy.
But it is self-debasing.
She should grow up. So should you.
Interesting: "hoi polloi" autocorrects to "hot pollo". And now I'm hungry.
Playing to the base instincts of the hoi polloi is rarely a bad business strategy.
But it is self-debasing.
She should grow up. So should you.
Interesting: "hoi polloi" autocorrects to "hot pollo". And now I'm hungry.
Kind of like when Mark Zuckerberg made Facemash to rank female undergrads, and then never succeeded at anything after that?
This app would be illegal in France. It's illegal to have a database of people without letting these people see, modify and destroy their profiles.
Doesn't any such law exist in the US?
Doesn't any such law exist in the US?
Weird that /r/MensRights made it to the front page this morning.
Some good points made, but in this instance I think voice and perspective matter, and I'd greatly prefer to see a piece like this written by a woman. A man's voice just does nothing for me in this instance.
We could have the "words vs. words+voice" debate, but let's just skip it because voice matters.
We could have the "words vs. words+voice" debate, but let's just skip it because voice matters.
They have the ability to remove a Facebook account from their system permanently. Email them asking to be removed and they will add you to the blocked list so that no one can rate/review you and you do not appear on the network in any way.
How do they prevent men from creating fake female accounts and see what's told about them?
Do they take steps to anonymize the evaluators? Even if they do, timing the changes in the evaluations will allow to guess who said what, except for the most frantic womanizers.
I can foresee a Lulu user being busted, bad things happening to her, and Lulu being sued.
Finally, for those who talk about DDoSing the site: it's smarter and funnier to build a Lulu whistleblowing bot, which makes stuff more public than intended.
Do they take steps to anonymize the evaluators? Even if they do, timing the changes in the evaluations will allow to guess who said what, except for the most frantic womanizers.
I can foresee a Lulu user being busted, bad things happening to her, and Lulu being sued.
Finally, for those who talk about DDoSing the site: it's smarter and funnier to build a Lulu whistleblowing bot, which makes stuff more public than intended.
Wow - Blair Warner was doing this 25 years ago!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toeIzZZxEkw
The more things change....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toeIzZZxEkw
The more things change....
"Lulu’s Term of Service disingenuously shifts the responsibility of notifying men of their unwitting participation to Lulu's users, which I’m inclined to believe has never happened."
WHAT?! You mean the Lulu app users might not be strictly adhering to the site's Terms of Service?! Well, notify the FBI about that! There's a law created in 1984 https://www.eff.org/issues/cfaa for JUST such criminals as these, and it makes the users guilty of committing a felony offense (a perfectly reasonable use of the law in this case)! Never mind the EFF's Week-Of-Action for reforming the CFAA this week https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/04/help-us-remember-aaron... . Lulu's users are clearly a threat to society and deserve felony convictions for their awful behavior here.
WHAT?! You mean the Lulu app users might not be strictly adhering to the site's Terms of Service?! Well, notify the FBI about that! There's a law created in 1984 https://www.eff.org/issues/cfaa for JUST such criminals as these, and it makes the users guilty of committing a felony offense (a perfectly reasonable use of the law in this case)! Never mind the EFF's Week-Of-Action for reforming the CFAA this week https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/04/help-us-remember-aaron... . Lulu's users are clearly a threat to society and deserve felony convictions for their awful behavior here.
The MRAs are out in force.
Does anyone really care? Maybe the young insecure men who have grown up with hash tags and their online persona having some kind of meaning. But anyone with an ounce of confidence wouldn't care less. Women have always gossiped and always will. It's not about the men, it's a way for women to bond over common experiences and shared empathy.
Wait, Hacker News is OK talking about gender now? Because I thought that stuff got flagged because it wasn't "relevant"- evidently the community has had quite the change of heart recently.
Either that, or it's OK because it's about men and not women. One of the two.
Either that, or it's OK because it's about men and not women. One of the two.
Are you new here? Every time there's a story in any way relating to sexism, the community jumps on it like it's somehow a worthwhile conversation, when really everyone just wants to put their two cents in. Like me for example.
They really don't, though. A number of people jump on, then the thread gets flagged to death. Only when it's about women, though:
http://tumbling.alastair.is/post/42050321362/why-are-posts-a...
http://tumbling.alastair.is/post/42050321362/why-are-posts-a...
Women are more often the victims, hence more stories about them, hence more discussion. I haven't seen a story yet about a guy who was a victim of sexism in this industry, but I also can't say the stories don't exist just because I haven't seen them.
What I have seen is public acknowledgement from pg that they delete stories that get voted up just because they feel like it. So the community doesn't necessarily get a say.
What I have seen is public acknowledgement from pg that they delete stories that get voted up just because they feel like it. So the community doesn't necessarily get a say.
There have been many more stories about sexism targeted at females than the reverse.
The comments here are absolutely disgusting. Sure, this service is shallow, and absolutely disrespectful of privacy, etc...
But the amount of faux outrage you're all whipping yourselves into a froth over is really over the top. So much hate and resentment. :(
Oh, and those of you claiming there would be some sort of anti-man frenzy if there was a site targeting similar gossip by men?
It's been done. No outrage. The most prominent example? Facebook.
But the amount of faux outrage you're all whipping yourselves into a froth over is really over the top. So much hate and resentment. :(
Oh, and those of you claiming there would be some sort of anti-man frenzy if there was a site targeting similar gossip by men?
It's been done. No outrage. The most prominent example? Facebook.
With all the commentary here you'd think all feminists are the kind that want to "overthrow" men and it's women's fault a company primarily consisting of men were funded, and have developed and marketed this app.
There are far creepier and more intrusive apps and services out there. Instead of blindly blaming feminists (without actually understanding what most feminists actually stand for) for them being on the marketplace, blame the developers and encourage the ecosystems they're a part of to stop allowing apps whose primary intentions are to shame or label unknowing persons. Your rage is Streisand-effecting this thing and propelling it further than it would have gone otherwise.
What were the totals in those gender polls yesterday? The current numbers are sitting at Male - 1201 / Female - 72 / Other - 30. And it shows (particularly because a lot of women specifically signed up yesterday just to participate in it and will probably go back to lurking for good reason).
I think many forget this place is actually less diverse than Reddit in demographics, frequented mostly by the 18-24 male, we just pretend that there's higher expectations in how one speaks and treats the upvote/downvote system even though that seemingly goes out the window when discussing topics like these, where opposing viewpoints are downvoted as quickly as they're posted and the women-blaming posts are upvoted.
When we have threads about revenge-porn sites, where are these same angry posters? Instead we get slut-shaming in the form of, "Well maybe you shouldn't be sending those types of photos if you don't want them to end up in the wrong hands." They act as though photos of naked males are passed around as quickly and have the same effect on the victim as they do females.
Do you remember the threads about /r/creepshots and how many here were defending the right to post these photos even if they contained personally-identifying information (location, scars, tattoos, etc.) because "freedom of speech" and "let Reddit be Reddit" and the always rational "well she was in public so she doesn't have any say in who can take a picture of her, regardless of how depraved it is". But oh no, some woman on some app nobody is going to use is going to call me a creep and it's going to ruin my life - the privilege!
The idea that "I don't experience privilege and I know this because I am not to blame for anything that happened before my existence," is trying to argue a point that only extremist feminists are making; no one's blaming the current crop of men for past problems that exist today (not most of them, anyway). That doesn't negate the fact that these values and expectations have already permeated through our society and are affecting everyone in ways many do not notice in their day-to-day.
It's a shame that this was the first post I am commenting on today, after seeing the existing dialogue here and the sibling comment to my post (albeit [dead]), I'm sure there will be some fun responses. But I needed to get things done today anyway.
TL;DR We have things to work on on both sides, but blaming women for a product not even created by women is really unnecessary and unproductive, particularly when similar apps for men are already on the market and have been linked in this thread.
There are far creepier and more intrusive apps and services out there. Instead of blindly blaming feminists (without actually understanding what most feminists actually stand for) for them being on the marketplace, blame the developers and encourage the ecosystems they're a part of to stop allowing apps whose primary intentions are to shame or label unknowing persons. Your rage is Streisand-effecting this thing and propelling it further than it would have gone otherwise.
What were the totals in those gender polls yesterday? The current numbers are sitting at Male - 1201 / Female - 72 / Other - 30. And it shows (particularly because a lot of women specifically signed up yesterday just to participate in it and will probably go back to lurking for good reason).
I think many forget this place is actually less diverse than Reddit in demographics, frequented mostly by the 18-24 male, we just pretend that there's higher expectations in how one speaks and treats the upvote/downvote system even though that seemingly goes out the window when discussing topics like these, where opposing viewpoints are downvoted as quickly as they're posted and the women-blaming posts are upvoted.
When we have threads about revenge-porn sites, where are these same angry posters? Instead we get slut-shaming in the form of, "Well maybe you shouldn't be sending those types of photos if you don't want them to end up in the wrong hands." They act as though photos of naked males are passed around as quickly and have the same effect on the victim as they do females.
Do you remember the threads about /r/creepshots and how many here were defending the right to post these photos even if they contained personally-identifying information (location, scars, tattoos, etc.) because "freedom of speech" and "let Reddit be Reddit" and the always rational "well she was in public so she doesn't have any say in who can take a picture of her, regardless of how depraved it is". But oh no, some woman on some app nobody is going to use is going to call me a creep and it's going to ruin my life - the privilege!
The idea that "I don't experience privilege and I know this because I am not to blame for anything that happened before my existence," is trying to argue a point that only extremist feminists are making; no one's blaming the current crop of men for past problems that exist today (not most of them, anyway). That doesn't negate the fact that these values and expectations have already permeated through our society and are affecting everyone in ways many do not notice in their day-to-day.
It's a shame that this was the first post I am commenting on today, after seeing the existing dialogue here and the sibling comment to my post (albeit [dead]), I'm sure there will be some fun responses. But I needed to get things done today anyway.
TL;DR We have things to work on on both sides, but blaming women for a product not even created by women is really unnecessary and unproductive, particularly when similar apps for men are already on the market and have been linked in this thread.
> The idea that "I don't experience privilege and I know this because I am not to blame for anything that happened before my existence,"
This has come up so much in this thread its almost baffling. Newsflash: If you are apart of the majority demographic on this website (18-35, upper middle class educated white male) you live the privilege EVERYDAY. Of course you arent conscious of it because it exists in your favor.
This has come up so much in this thread its almost baffling. Newsflash: If you are apart of the majority demographic on this website (18-35, upper middle class educated white male) you live the privilege EVERYDAY. Of course you arent conscious of it because it exists in your favor.
>Instead of blindly blaming feminists (without actually understanding what most feminists actually stand for) for them being on the marketplace
Why do discussions like this always get such ridiculous strawman arguments tossed around? Nobody is blaming feminists. People are pointing out that the vocal, hateful group of internet "feminists" constantly claim they are against sexism in all forms, and thus men's rights advocacy should not exist and those people should just be feminists. But in reality, when obvious sexism like this happens, those same "feminists" do not speak out against it.
Why do discussions like this always get such ridiculous strawman arguments tossed around? Nobody is blaming feminists. People are pointing out that the vocal, hateful group of internet "feminists" constantly claim they are against sexism in all forms, and thus men's rights advocacy should not exist and those people should just be feminists. But in reality, when obvious sexism like this happens, those same "feminists" do not speak out against it.
"Feminist" found count - 41. "Feminism" found count - 13. "WHERE ARE THE FEMINISTS NOW?!" was one of the top comments when this post was on the front page a few hours ago and helped set the stage for the continuing commentary.
The uproar in this thread is over placing inappropriate blame on people that neither asked for nor made this app. As Stavros said above, the company is primarily male and this aspect of the app was a last-minute pivot he hadn't heard of before he left the company.
Now look at how HN handled the same type of app for men -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5087859. Seems to be a lot less gender-blaming/misplaced fear going around there.
A better way to handle something like this is to shut down the very notion of it and do what was necessary to tell developers and distributors that this is not acceptable, like the thread linked above did. Instead, it turned into a hateful, woman-bashing array of bruised egos and hurt butts over what women you'd probably be smart enough not to date in the first place had to say about you.
The uproar in this thread is over placing inappropriate blame on people that neither asked for nor made this app. As Stavros said above, the company is primarily male and this aspect of the app was a last-minute pivot he hadn't heard of before he left the company.
Now look at how HN handled the same type of app for men -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5087859. Seems to be a lot less gender-blaming/misplaced fear going around there.
A better way to handle something like this is to shut down the very notion of it and do what was necessary to tell developers and distributors that this is not acceptable, like the thread linked above did. Instead, it turned into a hateful, woman-bashing array of bruised egos and hurt butts over what women you'd probably be smart enough not to date in the first place had to say about you.
>"Feminist" found count - 41. "Feminism" found count - 13. "WHERE ARE THE FEMINISTS NOW?!" was one of the top comments
I'm not sure how you could misunderstand my post as it was quite clear. I know people mentioned feminists. Yes, they say things like "WHERE ARE THE FEMINISTS NOW?!" just like I said. That is not blaming feminists for the creation of the app, which is what you claimed, and what I very clearly and explicitly responded to.
>The uproar in this thread is over placing inappropriate blame on people that neither asked for nor made this app
No it is not. Asking why feminists aren't speaking out against something is not blaming them for the creation of that thing.
I'm not sure how you could misunderstand my post as it was quite clear. I know people mentioned feminists. Yes, they say things like "WHERE ARE THE FEMINISTS NOW?!" just like I said. That is not blaming feminists for the creation of the app, which is what you claimed, and what I very clearly and explicitly responded to.
>The uproar in this thread is over placing inappropriate blame on people that neither asked for nor made this app
No it is not. Asking why feminists aren't speaking out against something is not blaming them for the creation of that thing.
Are you a feminist? Are you voicing your opinion? Then yes, feminists are speaking out. I don't know what this place expects; a story comes out and within hours members of this community decide that not a group isn't "doing their job" because they're personally not seeing enough outrage to satisfy them and prove the group is worthy of their support. As linked in other comments, plenty are.
Yet many of people come into these threads with the intent to argue with those whom they inherently believe will approve of an app like this because their misguided thought-process has them thinking the majority of feminists would praise it. They're quick to get mad at women, not at the developers or the mindset that this is okay. They're quick to complain at a movement for not doing enough in 24 hours, when we're all a part of it.
Not only that, but the current top comments here are complaining about how women abuse their "privilege" by calling men they deem unworthy of their time "creepy" and have decided to pile on needlessly to the idea that everyday interactions are going to land them with such a title. Again, there are very few women on HN alone, no less those willing to engage with people who honestly think that this is standardized practice for +/- 50% of the population, thus leaving dissenting opinions in the dust and piling on one-off anecdotes as some sort of social proof that they're right. How is that benefitting anyone?
This is not the first women's-issue thread in which I've seen you (and others here) personally go out of your way to talk without actually having anything to say. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to prove here, but it isn't conveying anything other than you are arguing to argue.
Yet many of people come into these threads with the intent to argue with those whom they inherently believe will approve of an app like this because their misguided thought-process has them thinking the majority of feminists would praise it. They're quick to get mad at women, not at the developers or the mindset that this is okay. They're quick to complain at a movement for not doing enough in 24 hours, when we're all a part of it.
Not only that, but the current top comments here are complaining about how women abuse their "privilege" by calling men they deem unworthy of their time "creepy" and have decided to pile on needlessly to the idea that everyday interactions are going to land them with such a title. Again, there are very few women on HN alone, no less those willing to engage with people who honestly think that this is standardized practice for +/- 50% of the population, thus leaving dissenting opinions in the dust and piling on one-off anecdotes as some sort of social proof that they're right. How is that benefitting anyone?
This is not the first women's-issue thread in which I've seen you (and others here) personally go out of your way to talk without actually having anything to say. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to prove here, but it isn't conveying anything other than you are arguing to argue.
>I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to prove here
That is clear from the content of your post. The question is, why are you so unsure. It is very simple, and I made it very clear. Twice in fact. You said that people here are blaming feminists for the creation of the app. I said that is false. That's it. That is the whole thing. I do not see how you can have such a hard time understanding such a very simple statement.
That is clear from the content of your post. The question is, why are you so unsure. It is very simple, and I made it very clear. Twice in fact. You said that people here are blaming feminists for the creation of the app. I said that is false. That's it. That is the whole thing. I do not see how you can have such a hard time understanding such a very simple statement.
Men's rights advocacy is, as a movement, pretty much the same thing as the whole "war on Christmas" crap that comes up on right wing TV every year.
It has no legitimacy because it's not legitimate.
Instead it is largely the same old prejudices, finding renewed strength under a thin mask of collective victimhood, desperately clung to.
It has no legitimacy because it's not legitimate.
Instead it is largely the same old prejudices, finding renewed strength under a thin mask of collective victimhood, desperately clung to.
Did you reply to the wrong post by accident or something? I was asking about the motivation behind strawman arguments, not requesting /b/ tier trolling.
Just because you have no response to something doesn't make it trolling.
The men's rights movement as it is should not exist. Not because male inequality is covered by feminist ideals, though it is, but because the "men's rights" movement is largely nothing more than a pretext for men to openly and self-righteously flaunt their anti-woman beliefs.
The men's rights movement as it is should not exist. Not because male inequality is covered by feminist ideals, though it is, but because the "men's rights" movement is largely nothing more than a pretext for men to openly and self-righteously flaunt their anti-woman beliefs.
>Just because you have no response to something doesn't make it trolling.
Certainly not. Posting deliberately inflammatory nonsense is however. Especially when posting it as a complete non-sequitur reply to an entirely unrelated post. Doubly so when you then proceed to act like a response is warranted, and double down on the random nonsense.
Certainly not. Posting deliberately inflammatory nonsense is however. Especially when posting it as a complete non-sequitur reply to an entirely unrelated post. Doubly so when you then proceed to act like a response is warranted, and double down on the random nonsense.
The post I replied to was, in part, a (poorly worded) justification of the need for "men's rights advocates," and that is the part I chose to reply to.
If you're angered by my disagreement, it's not because I'm being inflammatory. I have not engaged in the name-calling you have, nor have I tried to undermine your posts by pretending to be unable to understand them. I have simply stated my honest opinion.
Perhaps you really do have trouble understanding what I'm communicating; if so, my condolences.
But it's more likely that you're simply unprepared for direct challenges, so you avoid the topics at hand and try to score points via misdirection.
If you're angered by my disagreement, it's not because I'm being inflammatory. I have not engaged in the name-calling you have, nor have I tried to undermine your posts by pretending to be unable to understand them. I have simply stated my honest opinion.
Perhaps you really do have trouble understanding what I'm communicating; if so, my condolences.
But it's more likely that you're simply unprepared for direct challenges, so you avoid the topics at hand and try to score points via misdirection.
>The post I replied to was, in part, a (poorly worded) justification of the need for "men's rights advocates
No, it was not. I said nothing about men's rights, you simply assume that I must be an MRA because I disagreed with something you perceive as feminist. Just like MRAs assume I am a feminist when I disagree with something they say.
>If you're angered by my disagreement
Why do you think I am angered? And you have not expressed disagreement, your post literally had nothing to do with anything I said. You posted a complete non-sequitur, which you know is deliberately inflammatory, under the assumption that I am someone who will be offended by it. That is the very definition of trolling, even if your assumption is incorrect.
No, it was not. I said nothing about men's rights, you simply assume that I must be an MRA because I disagreed with something you perceive as feminist. Just like MRAs assume I am a feminist when I disagree with something they say.
>If you're angered by my disagreement
Why do you think I am angered? And you have not expressed disagreement, your post literally had nothing to do with anything I said. You posted a complete non-sequitur, which you know is deliberately inflammatory, under the assumption that I am someone who will be offended by it. That is the very definition of trolling, even if your assumption is incorrect.
Don't be disingenuous. Your comment introduced a group opposed to MRA's existence, then argued that they were wrong in doing so.
As for the rest, I have no interest in labeling people into petty little tribal buckets. I don't care what you call yourself.
That said, the amount of effort you are expending trying to undermine my opinion by personal attacks and misdirection strongly suggests you find my beliefs threatening, but lack either the evidence or the intellectual capabilities to produce a counterargument.
Finally, of course you are angered. On what other basis can you label my comments "inflammatory"?
As for the rest, I have no interest in labeling people into petty little tribal buckets. I don't care what you call yourself.
That said, the amount of effort you are expending trying to undermine my opinion by personal attacks and misdirection strongly suggests you find my beliefs threatening, but lack either the evidence or the intellectual capabilities to produce a counterargument.
Finally, of course you are angered. On what other basis can you label my comments "inflammatory"?
> the amount of effort you are expending trying to undermine my opinion by personal attacks and misdirection strongly suggests you find my beliefs threatening, but lack either the evidence or the intellectual capabilities to produce a counterargument.
Exactly why I couldn't continue responding to him. Everything he says is just some empty non-statement coupled with how I'm "wrong" or "not getting it" when there's nothing even there to get. Keep fighting the good fight.
Exactly why I couldn't continue responding to him. Everything he says is just some empty non-statement coupled with how I'm "wrong" or "not getting it" when there's nothing even there to get. Keep fighting the good fight.
>Don't be disingenuous
The hypocrisy of that statement is overwhelming.
>Your comment introduced a group opposed to MRA's existence, then argued that they were wrong in doing so.
I did neither of those things, perhaps you should try reading it again.
>That said, the amount of effort you are expending trying to undermine my opinion
I have said absolutely nothing about your opinion in any of my posts, other than that it was entirely unrelated to anything I have said.
>Finally, of course you are angered. On what other basis can you label my comments "inflammatory"?
I possess basic literacy and adult level reading comprehension. If you said "gay rights is largely the same old prejudices, finding renewed strength under a thin mask of collective victimhood, desperately clung to" it would also be obviously intended to be inflammatory. Even if I am not gay, and even if your comment does not make me angry, I am still capable of grasping the obvious inflammatory nature of the statement.
The hypocrisy of that statement is overwhelming.
>Your comment introduced a group opposed to MRA's existence, then argued that they were wrong in doing so.
I did neither of those things, perhaps you should try reading it again.
>That said, the amount of effort you are expending trying to undermine my opinion
I have said absolutely nothing about your opinion in any of my posts, other than that it was entirely unrelated to anything I have said.
>Finally, of course you are angered. On what other basis can you label my comments "inflammatory"?
I possess basic literacy and adult level reading comprehension. If you said "gay rights is largely the same old prejudices, finding renewed strength under a thin mask of collective victimhood, desperately clung to" it would also be obviously intended to be inflammatory. Even if I am not gay, and even if your comment does not make me angry, I am still capable of grasping the obvious inflammatory nature of the statement.
Are you a dunce, or just too cowardly to stand behind your own words?
Introduction of a group opposed to MRA: "the vocal, hateful group of internet 'feminists' constantly claim they are against sexism in all forms, and thus men's rights advocacy should not exist ..."
Your counter of said group's supposed reason for believing MRA to be superfluous: "But in reality, when obvious sexism like this happens, those same 'feminists' do not speak out against it."
> I have said absolutely nothing about your opinion
Exactly. Yet you are strenuously trying to dismiss it nonetheless -- but doing so by attacking the messenger and other weasel tactics, rather than by honest disagreement.
Introduction of a group opposed to MRA: "the vocal, hateful group of internet 'feminists' constantly claim they are against sexism in all forms, and thus men's rights advocacy should not exist ..."
Your counter of said group's supposed reason for believing MRA to be superfluous: "But in reality, when obvious sexism like this happens, those same 'feminists' do not speak out against it."
> I have said absolutely nothing about your opinion
Exactly. Yet you are strenuously trying to dismiss it nonetheless -- but doing so by attacking the messenger and other weasel tactics, rather than by honest disagreement.
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Hmm, now I kinda want to use the app to see if/when anything gets posted about me. But I don't want to help this become more of a thing. And I sure as hell don't want to give it access to my Facebook account.
Edit: saw the “no boys allowed” clause. Great. So I guess using it would require a fake Facebook account?
Edit: saw the “no boys allowed” clause. Great. So I guess using it would require a fake Facebook account?
This is fantastic. Any girl who uses something like this is someone to stay away from anyway and now it just gets easier. Keep up the good work.
I am so happy that I'm steering well clear of mainstream dating these days. This is the worst of mainstream dating culture, distilled and ready to use. If nothing else, you could make awareness/usage of this app a dealbreaker and use it as a filter for girls you would definitely not want as a partner.
If you're a single straight guy who has any kind of web following and you fear Lulu will be detrimental to your dating you can probably apply the following counter-strategy: ask your followers to register fake Lulu accounts and give you bizarre, negative reviews. Once the number and the severity and absurdity of the reviews cross a certain threshold it will be clear that those are not all to be taken seriously. This will drown out any real negative reviews of you with noise and, should many people start doing it, bring the overall credibility of the site down.
Disclaimer: I'm not advocating that you do so.
Disclaimer: I'm not advocating that you do so.
How much outrage is there over The Playbook app, which lets men share and rate pictures of their "romantic encounters"? Seemingly less than there is over LuLu, unless I missed it.
http://theplaybookapp.com/
http://theplaybookapp.com/
IIRC that hit HN a few months to a year ago. Everyone said it was slimy and disgusting and that the creators should feel bad for being assholes.
So there's that.
--edit-- Here is is - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5087859
It wasn't as as popular as this topic, and there are one or two "how will you monetise this" posts, but in general it got slammed.
So there's that.
--edit-- Here is is - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5087859
It wasn't as as popular as this topic, and there are one or two "how will you monetise this" posts, but in general it got slammed.
The free market is good at giving people what they want.
But sometimes, people getting what they want is a horrible thing.
But sometimes, people getting what they want is a horrible thing.
Honestly, I don't think that this is particularly sexist at all. My only issue is the massive double standard in the media and culture that takes a pass on this but would raise hell if someone released the same exact app with the genders reversed.
Am I the only one tempted to make an app called Ulul..?
Surprised they even tried to launch in the UK and had it running without getting sued or prosecuted.