Paris & Berlin – The tale of two cities (Part 1: The facts you can’t ignore)(rudebaguette.com)
rudebaguette.com
Paris & Berlin – The tale of two cities (Part 1: The facts you can’t ignore)
http://www.rudebaguette.com/2012/05/15/paris-v-berlin-the-facts/?utm_source=hackernews&utm_medium=hackernews&utm_campaign=hackernews
56 comments
> bureaucracy is ten years behind Finland. You still need to visit an office to get anything done instead of doing things over the browser
I found this to be the case when moving to Finland; the amount of bureaucracy needed to get started as a foreigner, even one from the EU, is insane (from a British perspective).
- register with tax office
- register with KELA (you'd think registering as a taxpayer would be sufficent; but no)
- register with the Maistratti (um...)
- register with police station (hey, I've just given my address details to the tax office, KELA, and Maistratti, but let's waste another half a day in a police station in middle of nowhere, Espoo).
But whatever, glad to be doing my part to support the National Bureaucrat Jobs Program.
I found this to be the case when moving to Finland; the amount of bureaucracy needed to get started as a foreigner, even one from the EU, is insane (from a British perspective).
- register with tax office
- register with KELA (you'd think registering as a taxpayer would be sufficent; but no)
- register with the Maistratti (um...)
- register with police station (hey, I've just given my address details to the tax office, KELA, and Maistratti, but let's waste another half a day in a police station in middle of nowhere, Espoo).
But whatever, glad to be doing my part to support the National Bureaucrat Jobs Program.
Getting started as an EU foreigner in UK:
- HMRC
- Council tax
- NI number
- Local doctor
- Voter registration
Never mind that even doing all that, most companies still don't think you exist because you don't appear on credit checks. Granted, most of these can be done via mail (someone should really introduce the British public service to the interwebs one of these days), the bureaucracy in Berlin is hardly uniquely bad from a British perspective :)
- HMRC
- Council tax
- NI number
- Local doctor
- Voter registration
Never mind that even doing all that, most companies still don't think you exist because you don't appear on credit checks. Granted, most of these can be done via mail (someone should really introduce the British public service to the interwebs one of these days), the bureaucracy in Berlin is hardly uniquely bad from a British perspective :)
All good points - from a foreigner's perspective in either country.
I think the key here is not web/non-web but the government in question having an intelligent, joined-up registration system.
In the case of Finland, once I'd registered with the tax office my address and other details should have been registered in the system. KELA would be notified - along with all my income details - and the magistrate and police would have up-to-date records. Done, one visit to one office.
I think the key here is not web/non-web but the government in question having an intelligent, joined-up registration system.
In the case of Finland, once I'd registered with the tax office my address and other details should have been registered in the system. KELA would be notified - along with all my income details - and the magistrate and police would have up-to-date records. Done, one visit to one office.
You can also spend too much time optimising a relatively rare use case. Each of those steps require that you fill out a form and mail it off. The exception is registering for an NI number where you actually have to book and show up for an interview. That's it. You'll be prompted to do each when necessary, there's no benefit/penalty for doing each too early/too late.
In contrast to Finland, where each of the cases above require me turning up in person. Had I just needed to mail off a form, it wouldn't be so much an issue.
There's a very frustrating mix of "concern for privacy" vs "being effective".
All these different agencies have their own databases (with slightly different fields making transfer of data between them a bit tricky) and they're not allowed to communicate apart from a few limited examples.
To get anything done I need to fill out a form, on paper. That same information needs to be filled out across many different forms, to different agencies. It's so bad that sometimes one form asks for the same information (address, date of birth) twice.
I'm not sure how governments could kludge all that data into one big database and protect people from hideous privacy violations that result.
All these different agencies have their own databases (with slightly different fields making transfer of data between them a bit tricky) and they're not allowed to communicate apart from a few limited examples.
To get anything done I need to fill out a form, on paper. That same information needs to be filled out across many different forms, to different agencies. It's so bad that sometimes one form asks for the same information (address, date of birth) twice.
I'm not sure how governments could kludge all that data into one big database and protect people from hideous privacy violations that result.
I 'love' the British voter registration process.
"You can do it online!" say the commercials.
Yes, you can fill in a form online, you're then presented with a PDF that you have to print off, sign, and post back to the local council office. Huh?
"You can do it online!" say the commercials.
Yes, you can fill in a form online, you're then presented with a PDF that you have to print off, sign, and post back to the local council office. Huh?
Yeah, and getting hold of the HRMC or any of these bodies over the phone can be very difficult. Apologies for that. I once got hit by a HMRC error and it was impossible for me to reach them to correct it while they fined me. Of course, they didn't admit that it was their error and that I took too long to get back to them...
C-base (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-base) and co-up (http://co-up.de/) would probably be good starting points for a visiting hacker.
I've also heard a lot of start-up people hang out in Sankt Oberholz (http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en), but I have no personal experience on that one.
I've also heard a lot of start-up people hang out in Sankt Oberholz (http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en), but I have no personal experience on that one.
>I've also heard a lot of start-up people hang out in Sankt Oberholz (http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en), but I have no personal experience on that one.
Coming from Tallinn to see Berlinale in February, I had a misfortune of not having a desk in my hotel room during my stay there. Thankfully, St. Oberholz was just around the corner. I spent most most of the days working there and met many great people from artists and art curators to programmers and entrepreneurs, and it seemed that about third of visitors came from Denmark/Sweden/Iceland and the US/Canada. As much I could gather, Oberholz was the place were tech people could work when they didn't have a office space for themselves or wanted some rest from their primary offices. The place is overcrowded most of the time so you don't have a luxury for your own private table, and more often than not, you'll have to ask for a place at someones table. They also provided almost decent wifi, which really isn't really the norm for the majority of places in Berlin.
On the broader perspective, Berlin is a great city with a good vibe attached to it, and I have been thinking of moving there for a while now.
Coming from Tallinn to see Berlinale in February, I had a misfortune of not having a desk in my hotel room during my stay there. Thankfully, St. Oberholz was just around the corner. I spent most most of the days working there and met many great people from artists and art curators to programmers and entrepreneurs, and it seemed that about third of visitors came from Denmark/Sweden/Iceland and the US/Canada. As much I could gather, Oberholz was the place were tech people could work when they didn't have a office space for themselves or wanted some rest from their primary offices. The place is overcrowded most of the time so you don't have a luxury for your own private table, and more often than not, you'll have to ask for a place at someones table. They also provided almost decent wifi, which really isn't really the norm for the majority of places in Berlin.
On the broader perspective, Berlin is a great city with a good vibe attached to it, and I have been thinking of moving there for a while now.
There are also a number of other hacker-spaces and the Chaos Computer Club. There is one hacker space devoted entirely to the intersection between Textiles and Electronics. Just a warning, Berlin is not the valley. It is it's own unique and awesome thing. A huge proportion of the hacking community couldn't care less about start ups. But it is a large community, and I can't speak for everyone.
Do you have any links for the other hacker spaces in Berlin? I'll be travelling there in the very near future, and will likely need a space to work while I'm there.
I'll be there for a month, and don't mind paying a membership fee. I already checked out c-base, co.up, and Sankt Oberholz, linked above. They look promising, but more information can only help.
I'll be there for a month, and don't mind paying a membership fee. I already checked out c-base, co.up, and Sankt Oberholz, linked above. They look promising, but more information can only help.
Another popular coworking café in Kreuzberg is The Nest, http://cafenest.de.
Thanks. Would be great if anyone else has anything to add. Have been looking into this for a while and this has been very useful.
I moved to Berlin also from Helsinki last autumn to work in a start-up.
What I should add to your list is the open-mindedness of the people: it is one of the most liberal places I've ever been. People are nice, the police won't arrest you so easily for spending a splendid day in a local park and of course the nightlife.
When I visited Berkeley and New York this spring, it was really a joy to be back home.
What I should add to your list is the open-mindedness of the people: it is one of the most liberal places I've ever been. People are nice, the police won't arrest you so easily for spending a splendid day in a local park and of course the nightlife.
When I visited Berkeley and New York this spring, it was really a joy to be back home.
Why would the police arrest you for spending a day in the park?
If you like to drink beer or smoke cigarettes in a public park, for example. Or smoke weed.
so basically doing things that are against the local laws
It's not illegal to drink beer in public places (like the subways, parks, streets) and it's also legal to smoke tobacco in many places.
Weed is not legal, but it's tolerated and discriminated.
Weed is not legal, but it's tolerated and discriminated.
Only they are not legal in NYC given the scenario described. NYC has open container laws (no open alchoholic containers in public), public smoking laws (particularly in public Parks) and weed is illegal under Federal law in th US.
> Since moving inside Europe is really simple, I'd urge anybody curious to take a shot and stay here for a while.
Not everywhere in the EU, I moved to Denmark almost two years ago, and I am completely sure that the Danish system was designed to keep people out of their border. Simple tasks like open a bank account are a troublesome for even EU citizens
Not everywhere in the EU, I moved to Denmark almost two years ago, and I am completely sure that the Danish system was designed to keep people out of their border. Simple tasks like open a bank account are a troublesome for even EU citizens
To open bank account in Germany you must be a resident or have a work/student visa. The Czech Republic will let anyone open a bank account however, but double check. Just some things I learnt last time I was in Europe on a tourist visa.
As a Dane, I can confirm that most of the policies here are created to keep foreigners out.
Until recently the government needed the support from a small nationalistic party and those laws and regulations were the price.
Until recently the government needed the support from a small nationalistic party and those laws and regulations were the price.
> Simple tasks like open a bank account are a troublesome for even EU citizens
Could you give some details of that?
Could you give some details of that?
So, there are EU regulations in place that are supposed to make money laundering harder. This raises the bar everywhere.
I suppose he's not referring directly to a bank account, but to our lovely home grown credit-masking-as-debit-card "Dankort" without which you might as well not have a bank account. Since they are in fact credit cards, banks are reluctant handing these out to people they might never see again.
I suppose he's not referring directly to a bank account, but to our lovely home grown credit-masking-as-debit-card "Dankort" without which you might as well not have a bank account. Since they are in fact credit cards, banks are reluctant handing these out to people they might never see again.
I'm a foreigner with a bank account and no Dankort, and I haven't really found it a huge hassle. While it's hard to get a Dankort, it's easy to get a Visa Elektron, which most places accept without fees (unlike foreign credit/debit cards). And the only things I've found really necessary about a Danish bank account are: 1) having an account to designate as a NemKonto; and 2) being able to use the betalingsservice through netbanking, e.g. to pay my rent, utilities, and TV license fee. For smaller things, I haven't found just using cash to be problematic, even if most Danes don't pay in cash.
Fair enough. I'm happy Electron is gaining ground. Not too many years ago, an Electron basically limited you to withdraw cash (for a fee) from other bank's ATMs and pay in a few places - not including most supermarkets.
Even Parisians often flee Paris because of red tape and taxes, so if you add a foreign accent, or poor to no French, into the mix you are likely going to be going at a snail's pace. Berlin is cheaper, friendlier to business, friendlier to English and just friendlier in general on the street. The cheapness translates as a factor for employees (their home), and the international orientation of the city allows you to draw on a much broader potential labour force as tons more people from around Europe would consider a move to Berlin than to Paris.
I'd be fairly surprised if there was even a single metric on which Paris beats Berlin for anything business related, so unless you have a product specific to the French market or have a significant other in Paris who can't move it's Berlin every time. Even if you have a product specific to the French market it's probably be best to be outside France unless you need to be there in person to stroke the egos of bureaucrats who might regulate you out of existence.
I'd be fairly surprised if there was even a single metric on which Paris beats Berlin for anything business related, so unless you have a product specific to the French market or have a significant other in Paris who can't move it's Berlin every time. Even if you have a product specific to the French market it's probably be best to be outside France unless you need to be there in person to stroke the egos of bureaucrats who might regulate you out of existence.
I'd be fairly surprised if there was even a single metric on which Paris beats Berlin for anything business related
Like Paris having the biggest business center in Europe?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_D%C3%A9fense
Like Paris having the biggest business center in Europe?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_D%C3%A9fense
La Defense is important (though not "technically" in Paris, but it's Paris Area)
Let me add (compared to Berlin):
Good connectivity to: London, Brussels (train) and other cities (CDG one of the biggest air hubs)
Major companies are there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Paris#Fortune_Global...
(Most of the big companies are there: fashion, banks, defense/big contractors (some), etc)
Let me add (compared to Berlin):
Good connectivity to: London, Brussels (train) and other cities (CDG one of the biggest air hubs)
Major companies are there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Paris#Fortune_Global...
(Most of the big companies are there: fashion, banks, defense/big contractors (some), etc)
the connectivity argument isn't real.
just monday, I spent 4 wonderful hours to go from CDG into town because public transport in Paris is simply broken. Berlin isn't 100% but it's 100% better.
just monday, I spent 4 wonderful hours to go from CDG into town because public transport in Paris is simply broken. Berlin isn't 100% but it's 100% better.
I'm not talking about connectivity inside the town. But yes, there are some problems (eventually)
Or you could just take a cab from CDG to Paris.
But Paris has the Eurostar and Thales this means 1h15 from Paris (city center) to Brussels (city center) and +/- 2h20 to London (St Pancras station). Without having to go to a far-away airport and get there 1h before the flight.
Berlin sure has lots of flights but it's not an Intl hub like LHR or CDG
Or you could just take a cab from CDG to Paris.
But Paris has the Eurostar and Thales this means 1h15 from Paris (city center) to Brussels (city center) and +/- 2h20 to London (St Pancras station). Without having to go to a far-away airport and get there 1h before the flight.
Berlin sure has lots of flights but it's not an Intl hub like LHR or CDG
I had the displeasure of doing this the other way around (Paris to Airport). I got on a 14 hour flight with a minute to spare.
Or Paris having cheaper and faster home internet connections compared to Berlin..
That's an interesting read. I'd never heard of La Défense before, but the wiki page makes me wonder whether it's the largest business center in Europe because of some set of favorables or if it is because there are so many historic areas in Paris that businesses are relegated to that area.
La Defense is, and has been in the past, home to some of the largest European companies. In fashion, you have L'Oreal, LVMH (the company that owns Louis Vutton, among other notables), as well as some of France's more classic tech companies: Bull, SFR, Orange, Capgemini, etc.
In light of the significant advantages of Berlin are you going to be leaving Paris?
I was in Berlin in December, with my fiance, to check it out as I was considering it as a potential place to work for a few a year or two.
It didn't resonate with me. But everyone has their own experiences. Below are some of the good and bad from my experiences:
1. Transportation is amazing. Not having a car is a non-issue. The most I waited for a train was 10 minutes.
Drinking and smoking are allowed in the underground stations. Personal freedom often trumped collective consciousness.
2. Rent is cheap. But I found the city rather ugly. When I asked a resident why they have so much "bad graffiti" she commented that it was to make it ugly. Further questioning and reasoning was that ugly correlates to cheaper rent.
3. So much dog shit. Perhaps because there are a lot of dogs. They are very well behaved. But the poo was everywhere.
4. We stayed in Kreuzburg. It's trendy. Which means that it's mostly occupied by unemployed artists. :P
5. I speak very poor German, but Berliners are incredibly friendly and mostly patient.
6. It doesn't really feel like a big city.
7. They had some nice galleries and museums. Architecturally I don't think I saw anything significant, or that sticks out in my mind.
It didn't resonate with me. But everyone has their own experiences. Below are some of the good and bad from my experiences:
1. Transportation is amazing. Not having a car is a non-issue. The most I waited for a train was 10 minutes.
Drinking and smoking are allowed in the underground stations. Personal freedom often trumped collective consciousness.
2. Rent is cheap. But I found the city rather ugly. When I asked a resident why they have so much "bad graffiti" she commented that it was to make it ugly. Further questioning and reasoning was that ugly correlates to cheaper rent.
3. So much dog shit. Perhaps because there are a lot of dogs. They are very well behaved. But the poo was everywhere.
4. We stayed in Kreuzburg. It's trendy. Which means that it's mostly occupied by unemployed artists. :P
5. I speak very poor German, but Berliners are incredibly friendly and mostly patient.
6. It doesn't really feel like a big city.
7. They had some nice galleries and museums. Architecturally I don't think I saw anything significant, or that sticks out in my mind.
I really enjoy the graffiti in Berlin. It's because I've done so many underground rave parties and I'm fond of old factories, warehouses etc.
If you don't like that, I would then prefer Paris over Berlin.
If you don't like that, I would then prefer Paris over Berlin.
Drinking and smoking are allowed in the underground stations.
I smoked once on the S-bahn station (wouldn't imagine it can be allowed on U-bahn), and the security politely informed me with a smile that it's not allowed. In my homecountry I'm not used to any form of security being polite.
Not only beer, you forgot gluhwein :)
Not only beer, you forgot gluhwein :)
December, and generally winter without snow, makes Berlin (or Kreuzberg, specifically) look ugly. Try spring, it's much better.
This isn't a very well written article. Comparing Berlin to Paris isn't a fair comparison. Paris for example, is subject to some of the most startup-hostile laws in the EU. The adage of hire slowly and fire quickly just doesn't work there, yet somehow this doesn't make the article.
It seems like the crux of the article is based on Berlin being cheaper than Paris. Well, to be honest most of Europe is cheaper than most of central Paris. You could just as easily claim that Athens is cheaper than Paris, but I hardly see Athens as a startup hub for years to come.
The point about Berlin's geographical location given the ease of transport within the EU for EU member state citizens is laughable. What about the talent in Germany? There are some great universities in Germany that are overlooked in favour of what? Poland? If one of Berlin's best points is it's proximity to Poland, then Berlin is in serious trouble as a startup hub. I imagine that a lot of (but not all) Poles might not see Germany as a natural startup destination anymore than Russia. Besides, there's a heck of a lot of smart Polish people who work all around the world as well as shock in Poland.
Is Berlin better than Paris to launch a startup? Almost certainly. Almost anywhere outside of France is better than France to launch a startup right now (considering the red tape, taxis and uncertainty under Hollande) but it has a long way to go to displace London and for Germany the UK in general.
In conclusion, in the EU if you want cheap, go to Bucharest. If you want good, go to London.
It seems like the crux of the article is based on Berlin being cheaper than Paris. Well, to be honest most of Europe is cheaper than most of central Paris. You could just as easily claim that Athens is cheaper than Paris, but I hardly see Athens as a startup hub for years to come.
The point about Berlin's geographical location given the ease of transport within the EU for EU member state citizens is laughable. What about the talent in Germany? There are some great universities in Germany that are overlooked in favour of what? Poland? If one of Berlin's best points is it's proximity to Poland, then Berlin is in serious trouble as a startup hub. I imagine that a lot of (but not all) Poles might not see Germany as a natural startup destination anymore than Russia. Besides, there's a heck of a lot of smart Polish people who work all around the world as well as shock in Poland.
Is Berlin better than Paris to launch a startup? Almost certainly. Almost anywhere outside of France is better than France to launch a startup right now (considering the red tape, taxis and uncertainty under Hollande) but it has a long way to go to displace London and for Germany the UK in general.
In conclusion, in the EU if you want cheap, go to Bucharest. If you want good, go to London.
I'm not sure about Berlin, but I am visiting Paris for a few months and I found that it is just riddled with bureaucracy.
For example, there was an article recently about why there are so many 49-employee people companies in France: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3953145
I would imagine things like this get in the way of actually developing product and providing value to your customers.
For example, there was an article recently about why there are so many 49-employee people companies in France: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3953145
I would imagine things like this get in the way of actually developing product and providing value to your customers.
As someone living in London i can see Berlin to become the seedstage city of Europe fairly quickly.
This might result into becoming the startup hub #1 on the long run. But for now London holds the crown with an better uplink to the US and in general to international media and investors.
Your thoughts on this?
Could berlin be the Seedstage City of Europe ? Basically the Garage of this continent.
Could berlin be the Seedstage City of Europe ? Basically the Garage of this continent.
[deleted]
What is the VC culture like in Berlin? Are there many VCs, and what kind of companies do they typically invest in?
To me, this is the difference between a good town for bootstrapping and a good town for creating a startup. As it stands, this article seems more like an argument for why Berlin is a great place to bootstrap a company. Which is also great, but different.
To me, this is the difference between a good town for bootstrapping and a good town for creating a startup. As it stands, this article seems more like an argument for why Berlin is a great place to bootstrap a company. Which is also great, but different.
I'm sure Berlin is not very different to Paris in this regard, but being from Barcelona, Spain; my main concern regarding Berlin is the weather. I guess you can't have everything.
Odd that the article completely sidesteps bureaucracy.
Great article, can't wait to read the part 2, to know if i should move or not from Paris to Berlin !
tomdtpink(1)
There are several things that I've been positively surprised about:
* Cost of living is really cheap. Now when I travel to France or Finland I feel everything is expensive there
* Berlin is very well connected with rest of Europe (trains, flights)
* The hacker scene here is great (huge meetups, etc)
On the slightly negative side:
* bureaucracy is ten years behind Finland. You still need to visit an office to get anything done instead of doing things over the browser
* Rental agencies really try to fleece you
Since moving inside Europe is really simple, I'd urge anybody curious to take a shot and stay here for a while. For example a month in some co-working space.