NTSB says Boeing is withholding key details about door plug on Alaska 737 MAX 9(npr.org)
npr.org
NTSB says Boeing is withholding key details about door plug on Alaska 737 MAX 9
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/06/1236277058/boeing-737-max-9-alaska-airlines-door-plug-removed-ntsb-commerce-cantwell-cruz
319 comments
Seems like Boeing might not have the documentation the NTSB is requesting[1], even though they say they do keep that documentation. I wonder if Boeing doesn't want to admit that for some legal reason, maybe they don't have a lot of documentation they say they should have.
[1] https://twitter.com/David_Slotnick/status/176545419893241038...
[1] https://twitter.com/David_Slotnick/status/176545419893241038...
So at first NTSB asked "do you know who did it?", and Boeing said "no we don't". Then NTSB asked if they at least could get the list of the employee team who would have been responsible for performing that task and that's where the disagreement is, whether the names were provided or not.
> Investigators have also been seeking the names of the 25 Boeing employees who are part of the team that opens and closes door plugs. But so far, Homendy says the plane-maker has not provided those names.
> "Early in the investigation, we provided the NTSB with names of Boeing employees, including door specialists, who we believed would have relevant information. We have now provided the full list of individuals on the 737 door team, in response to a recent request," Greenwood said.
I wonder if NTSB is seeking to at least interview the whole team to see what they say. Would they even remember that long ago who did what? Or I guess they are after more evidence that this kind of stuff just happens routinely. Though I think it's seems quite clear it is.
> Investigators have also been seeking the names of the 25 Boeing employees who are part of the team that opens and closes door plugs. But so far, Homendy says the plane-maker has not provided those names.
> "Early in the investigation, we provided the NTSB with names of Boeing employees, including door specialists, who we believed would have relevant information. We have now provided the full list of individuals on the 737 door team, in response to a recent request," Greenwood said.
I wonder if NTSB is seeking to at least interview the whole team to see what they say. Would they even remember that long ago who did what? Or I guess they are after more evidence that this kind of stuff just happens routinely. Though I think it's seems quite clear it is.
There was a deferred prosecution agreement with Boeing that expired shortly after the door blow out.
I saw a news item that said the DoJ was investigating whether Boeing's subsequent behavior violated the agreement.
It takes a bit of arrogance to stonewall the NTSB in light of such an agreement.
I saw a news item that said the DoJ was investigating whether Boeing's subsequent behavior violated the agreement.
It takes a bit of arrogance to stonewall the NTSB in light of such an agreement.
Boeing, Apple and few other companies are losing their way. They do not care about customers anymore and for few extra cents they do everything within their power, including endangering customer lives.
So they don't have process records for work on an airframe. Yikes. That is worse than I expected.
Then they need to do the one thing that will get Boeing's attention: ground the fleet.
So where are the severe consequences here?
Surely when lives are at stake there must be consequences for companies breaking the law...
Surely when lives are at stake there must be consequences for companies breaking the law...
Easy solution here is for every traveler to refuse to buy seats on a Boeing plane. If we honestly believe the company was at fault and has been negligent in their safety protocols, it seems like an easy answer to just not support their business.
Wait I'm confused... From the preliminary report we know that the door plug was removed by spirit to fix their damaged rivets, and it sounds like the NTSB had documentation to support that as of when they were writing the preliminary report. Quoting from that report:
> Records show the rivets were replaced per engineering requirements on Non-Conformance (NC) Order 145-8987-RSHK-1296-002NC completed on September 19, 2023, by Spirit AeroSystems personnel.
So why is the NTSB looking for Boeing personnel?
> Records show the rivets were replaced per engineering requirements on Non-Conformance (NC) Order 145-8987-RSHK-1296-002NC completed on September 19, 2023, by Spirit AeroSystems personnel.
So why is the NTSB looking for Boeing personnel?
It's about a matter of time Boeing disappears, forcefully by the sole aspect of having every other country stop buying Boeing and buy Airbus only. American companies need to start learning that profit seeking has its limits when it comes to using a single sensor to recalibrate your plane or not installing bolts that make your plan doors fall off mid-flight.
In fact, I find it pretty crazy, at all, that the 737 Max, turned out to be just a 737 that had been rehashed to support a much stronger engine via some incredibly complex mechanism of balancing their plane, as if mechanical systems never failed before. Planes are hard enough as they are, let alone cheapening out on designing a new airframe because you think you can get away with this sensor garbage.
In fact, I find it pretty crazy, at all, that the 737 Max, turned out to be just a 737 that had been rehashed to support a much stronger engine via some incredibly complex mechanism of balancing their plane, as if mechanical systems never failed before. Planes are hard enough as they are, let alone cheapening out on designing a new airframe because you think you can get away with this sensor garbage.
The schtick about blah blah blah "raises serious questions about quality and safety at Boeing" is downright ridiculous at this point. Almost condescending in that Boeing management literally has everyone by the balls.
We are far beyond the profound insight that something is deadly wrong at Boeing, and as a matter of national security upper management needs purged. Whoever is selecting CEOs has to go. Total house cleaning.
We are far beyond the profound insight that something is deadly wrong at Boeing, and as a matter of national security upper management needs purged. Whoever is selecting CEOs has to go. Total house cleaning.
Philip Morris. Exxon(Mobile). Boeing.
Profits above all, and internal awareness of the greater unpaid costs... buried.
I know my list is incomplete, but you get the idea.
Profits above all, and internal awareness of the greater unpaid costs... buried.
I know my list is incomplete, but you get the idea.
I guess the question for Boeing is simple: is it better to be incompetent or negligent?
Boeing might believe that they have hit rock bottom...or their PR firm might believe that. There are miles more to go before they hit bottom.
I mean, if they can't produce complete records for any airplanes what happens?
And really, who are they protecting at this point? Their insurance won't cover negligence...but their customers won't accept incompetence.
Boeing might believe that they have hit rock bottom...or their PR firm might believe that. There are miles more to go before they hit bottom.
I mean, if they can't produce complete records for any airplanes what happens?
And really, who are they protecting at this point? Their insurance won't cover negligence...but their customers won't accept incompetence.
John Oliver absolutely roasted Boeing, in this week's main story: (Link won't be available until tomorrow).
Boeing seems to think dealing with the NTSB is like dealing with the FAA. Would love to be a fly on the wall in their lobbyist's offices rn.
Well, I’ll never fly with 737 MAX, that’s for sure.
its giving obstruction of justice vibes
>A Boeing spokesman disputed Homendy's account in an emailed statement to NPR. "Since the first moments following the Alaska Airlines Flight 1282 accident, we have worked proactively and transparently to fully support the NTSB's investigation," said Boeing's Connor Greenwood
By 'proactively and transparently' I assume Boeing means telling NTSB 'we don't know anything so we can't answer your questions lalala.'
>"Early in the investigation, we provided the NTSB with names of Boeing employees, including door specialists, who we believed would have relevant information. We have now provided the full list of individuals on the 737 door team, in response to a recent request," Greenwood said.
Boeing throwing its employees under the bus- 'no we don't have any record of the work. Why don't you bother our plant crew instead. They would know everything because someone does, and it's not us Boeing.'
By 'proactively and transparently' I assume Boeing means telling NTSB 'we don't know anything so we can't answer your questions lalala.'
>"Early in the investigation, we provided the NTSB with names of Boeing employees, including door specialists, who we believed would have relevant information. We have now provided the full list of individuals on the 737 door team, in response to a recent request," Greenwood said.
Boeing throwing its employees under the bus- 'no we don't have any record of the work. Why don't you bother our plant crew instead. They would know everything because someone does, and it's not us Boeing.'
It appears some here aren't fluent in WeaselSpeak.
NTSB wanted the names of the specific people who had removed the door plug.
Boeing then gave then the names of employees who may or may have not something to do with doors, for example, accounting, the chef and the janitor.
NTSB then said that no, they did not want that, they want the names of the specific employees who had removed/installed that specific door plug on that specific airplane.
And then Boeing replied: "Sure, here are the names of our 170.000 employees."
The End.
NTSB wanted the names of the specific people who had removed the door plug.
Boeing then gave then the names of employees who may or may have not something to do with doors, for example, accounting, the chef and the janitor.
NTSB then said that no, they did not want that, they want the names of the specific employees who had removed/installed that specific door plug on that specific airplane.
And then Boeing replied: "Sure, here are the names of our 170.000 employees."
The End.
Why wouldn't they? It is a business secret that helps them to reduce cost and be competitive.
Per that whistleblower account, the door plug removal was not documented in the official records system ("CMES") but the required work was discussed in an unofficial system ("SAT") including whether or not an official record should be made. Boeing concluded the work could be done without an official record in CMES. Per the discussion on SAT, the official "removal" record was not needed if the operation was treated as an "opening" instead, despite the safety-critical bolts being removed in either case.
The FAA obviously will have problems with the entire system that lets factory workers do safety-critical work without official documentation, standards, or oversight. So they will want to talk to enough people to understand how that system is understood in practice on the factory floor and how it came to be.
Boeing it seems has tried to limit them to talking to people directly involved with the Alaska Air incident work. Hence the current heated pushback feom the FAA.
It may also be that Boeing is playing coy about the relevant discussion in SAT, or about the existence or nonexistence of policy distinguishing between door plug "opening" and "removal". In any case the FAA wants everything and Boeing has been trying to get away with less.
[1] https://leehamnews.com/2024/01/15/unplanned-removal-installa...