Harvard morgue theft ring stole body parts, sold brains, flesh->leather (2023)(nbcnews.com)
nbcnews.com
Harvard morgue theft ring stole body parts, sold brains, flesh->leather (2023)
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/4-charged-stealing-selling-human-body-parts-harvard-medical-school-mor-rcna89357
11 comments
This is terrible - it is such a gift that these individuals donate their remains to students - and for the manager to take advantage of that is just terrible.
Yup. Before my mom was in hospice care, she arranged to donate to the regional medical school. I thought this was really cool and intend to do the same. One thing that was really surprising was how much easier it made the arrangements just after the terminal event, which turned out also be a nice gift.
But this kind of ghoulishness for petty profit is extremely discouraging. I'm happy to contribute to the next generation of learning and science. But if my parts are going to wind up traded & sold by a bunch of scumbags, I'd literally prefer to just get placed in the remote woods for animals to eat - go straight back to the natural cycle.
So, it seems that before donating, we now must ask what controls are in place. Ugh.
But this kind of ghoulishness for petty profit is extremely discouraging. I'm happy to contribute to the next generation of learning and science. But if my parts are going to wind up traded & sold by a bunch of scumbags, I'd literally prefer to just get placed in the remote woods for animals to eat - go straight back to the natural cycle.
So, it seems that before donating, we now must ask what controls are in place. Ugh.
Pretty much any ecological method like this is illegal in the USA due to lobbying from the mortuary industry. They really want to get their dollar. You have to be embalmed before you can be cremated which seems like a huge waste.
But letting your body rot in the woods doesn’t really scale. Yeah a sky burial works for a small mountain village, but you would have to dedicate huge swathes of land and sustain a large carrion bird population to do that for a city without it turning into a biohazard.
There is a reason most cultures prefer to bury or burn their dead.
But letting your body rot in the woods doesn’t really scale. Yeah a sky burial works for a small mountain village, but you would have to dedicate huge swathes of land and sustain a large carrion bird population to do that for a city without it turning into a biohazard.
There is a reason most cultures prefer to bury or burn their dead.
Enbalming is not necessary and not mandatory, and it's a myth that it is. Yes, funeral homes will try really hard to sell it, and it's one of those routine things that happens lickety-split before you can stop it, but NO, it is not required!
I've spent a long time thinking about dying when I should have been living. Whatever happens in the end, I hope that your life was lived to the best that you can, because that's the important part. Everything that comes after, well, it can suck, but the magic was in the now and what you did whilst alive.
Wishing you a very long, very healthy, very happy, very peaceful life. May we all rest in peace eventually.
Wishing you a very long, very healthy, very happy, very peaceful life. May we all rest in peace eventually.
Would your opinion change if the parts were taken after the students used them? These parts were already "dissected," if they still needed to be used presumably the professors would notice they were missing.
Yes??? Unless the person in question agreed for you to sell their remains for personal gain, it's pretty messed up to do so.
If one of my loved ones decided to donate their body to science, and their skull ended up being sold to some creep who got off on having a human skull, I'd be pretty irate.
If one of my loved ones decided to donate their body to science, and their skull ended up being sold to some creep who got off on having a human skull, I'd be pretty irate.
[deleted]
yes-with-three-questions isn't a very confident answer. if you're confident, why put a question mark after your words? Is that like the internet-comments-section Bat Symbol to summon others from your tribe to back up your less-than-confident position?
As a fully fluent English speaker, I read those extra question marks as astonishment that you'd even need to ask such a question and that the answer is seemingly obvious. And I'd agree with the commenter's sentiment. There's no question in their reply.
Lol my opinion would not change. The donors consented to body donation for science (often to a specific institution with certain conditions) which is a huge kindness because medical students doing dissections is not the dream for many of us. It is completely different to have your organs etc shipped off to god knows where without your consent.
Why are people buying human remains?
Initially I was thinking this was a organ transplant ring or something, but these are bones and teeth, etc.
Do people really just collect human remains as art? I thought taxidermy of animals was strange, but this seems even stranger.
Initially I was thinking this was a organ transplant ring or something, but these are bones and teeth, etc.
Do people really just collect human remains as art? I thought taxidermy of animals was strange, but this seems even stranger.
TFA mentions that he had a tanner make leather from human skin which (to me) implies it was mostly used to make counterfeits. There are a lot of valuable artifacts ranging from weapons and pendants made from bone to books bound with leather from human skin. Often times their macabre nature alone is enough to inflate the price.
There are nondestructive low cost tests to easily verify human remains that unscrupulous collectors can use but determining how old those remains are is much harder, more expensive, and generally opens up the collector to outside scrutiny. That makes scamming such collectors a lot easier as long as you've got a reliable source of human remains.
There are nondestructive low cost tests to easily verify human remains that unscrupulous collectors can use but determining how old those remains are is much harder, more expensive, and generally opens up the collector to outside scrutiny. That makes scamming such collectors a lot easier as long as you've got a reliable source of human remains.
(just a complete guess)
to feel like they have power over others. they know the decedent did not authorize their skull to be (say) mounted on a cane next to their throne, or their teeth to be made into (say) a necklace. I can see how there could be a market for products that say "look how badass I am, that I have human remains over my doorway", just like some people do with their (egregiously) lifted trucks, or other status symbols.
to feel like they have power over others. they know the decedent did not authorize their skull to be (say) mounted on a cane next to their throne, or their teeth to be made into (say) a necklace. I can see how there could be a market for products that say "look how badass I am, that I have human remains over my doorway", just like some people do with their (egregiously) lifted trucks, or other status symbols.
https://www.google.com/search?q=human+teeth+for+sale
https://www.skullsunlimited.com/collections/humans/Real-Skul...
Why? I don't know
https://www.skullsunlimited.com/collections/humans/Real-Skul...
Why? I don't know
The shop's Instagram account says it specializes in "creepy dolls, oddities, and bone art," with posts including a real human skull and a case of 11 human vertebrae. The caption of one of the posts says, "If you're in the market for human bones hit me up."
https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/fbi-search-kats-creepy-c...
https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/fbi-search-kats-creepy-c...
To show them. To their friends or enemies. The main purpose is probably intimidation, or pretending to be more dangerous, sick or cool that you really are.
Mental issues and stupid rituals should be very marginal cases.
Mental issues and stupid rituals should be very marginal cases.
There was a case a few years ago of the military buying bodies donated to science to perform blast testing.
I imagine there are also some people with tastes, culinary or sexual, that others would find abhorrent.
I imagine there are also some people with tastes, culinary or sexual, that others would find abhorrent.
This post comes to mind:
What happens when you donate your body to science – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33206364
What happens when you donate your body to science – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33206364
I always thought it would be fun to leave behind my skull for my descendents - something to put on the bookshelf. And then, if I attained infinite wealth someday, I'd create some elaborate, expensive treasure hunt that kicks off when someone fines the micro sd card cunningly embedded in it.
But it turns out that it's illegal to remove parts from a human body in the US. So you'd either have to make a backroom deal or arrange to transport your remains to another country and then ship them back. Lame.
But it turns out that it's illegal to remove parts from a human body in the US. So you'd either have to make a backroom deal or arrange to transport your remains to another country and then ship them back. Lame.
I would suggest that the body of a deceased person should not be treated like personal property. Your family and those descendants who come after you will want to venerate your remains and visit them wherever they may be interred. Placing a skull on a bookshelf is not conducive to this public veneration.
This is why it is customary to inter bodily remains in public places such as cemeteries, where they are open and may be visited by anyone with an interest, or indeed any stranger who wishes to pay respects and keep your memory alive.
Case in point: my godfather/uncle passed away a few years ago, and I missed his funeral because I was unable to travel. The word is that he was cremated, and those remains are kept in the home of my estranged cousin. Therefore, even if I were to travel there, I cannot rightly invite myself to her home to visit the remains of my uncle. It is unjust that they are more or less "held hostage" and that she claims "ownership" of his body, thereby withholding rights of visitation and veneration from the rest of the family, or at least unjustly gatekeeping those rights.
This is why it is customary to inter bodily remains in public places such as cemeteries, where they are open and may be visited by anyone with an interest, or indeed any stranger who wishes to pay respects and keep your memory alive.
Case in point: my godfather/uncle passed away a few years ago, and I missed his funeral because I was unable to travel. The word is that he was cremated, and those remains are kept in the home of my estranged cousin. Therefore, even if I were to travel there, I cannot rightly invite myself to her home to visit the remains of my uncle. It is unjust that they are more or less "held hostage" and that she claims "ownership" of his body, thereby withholding rights of visitation and veneration from the rest of the family, or at least unjustly gatekeeping those rights.
> Placing a skull on a bookshelf is not conducive to this public veneration.
Veneration is enormously culturally subjective. There are many, many, many cultures that would have seen placing the skull of an ancestor in a prominent place as a very, very, very obvious sign of respect and power.
But, my people don't engage in ancestor worship. I come from sad stock and I'd rather be forgotten after I die.
Veneration is enormously culturally subjective. There are many, many, many cultures that would have seen placing the skull of an ancestor in a prominent place as a very, very, very obvious sign of respect and power.
But, my people don't engage in ancestor worship. I come from sad stock and I'd rather be forgotten after I die.
Indeed, I am a member of such a culture.
But the context of this thread involves rather obscure and private locales, such as a bookshelf in Chad's garage, or an incel's 1BR apartment. The foot traffic and availability would be near-zero.
I'm not sure how you leapt from that context to "a prominent place".
Compare this to the custom of churches holding relics for public veneration, such as embedding them in an altar, displaying them at a shrine, or in a reliquary held by a priest for people to line up and kiss. Or the standard custom of cemeteries and mausoleums which are open to the public at all times of the year, which offer sacred consecrated ground, and religious/spiritual context for those who venerate the remains.
But the context of this thread involves rather obscure and private locales, such as a bookshelf in Chad's garage, or an incel's 1BR apartment. The foot traffic and availability would be near-zero.
I'm not sure how you leapt from that context to "a prominent place".
Compare this to the custom of churches holding relics for public veneration, such as embedding them in an altar, displaying them at a shrine, or in a reliquary held by a priest for people to line up and kiss. Or the standard custom of cemeteries and mausoleums which are open to the public at all times of the year, which offer sacred consecrated ground, and religious/spiritual context for those who venerate the remains.
I think it should be a personal decision. As a skull on a bookshelf I feel my remains would have far more impact than if I only had a plot somewhere that was infrequently visited. It's also more of a conversation starter. Also, there is nothing to say you can't have both - the body could be in a plot, the skull left in a creepy library in the ancient mahogany library I left my children. You know, the usual.
Having your remains transported out of the US and back seems like it would be pretty easy to do in a hypothetical scenario where you've already "attained infinite wealth"
> But it turns out that it's illegal to remove parts from a human body in the US.
This is not true, it's just a highly regulated market. Look up tissue banks.
This is not true, it's just a highly regulated market. Look up tissue banks.
Jon Oliver did a piece on body donation[0]. Many people probably wouldn't expect their loved ones body to be used for entertainment in a hotel, sold piece by piece for profit or used to test explosives.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn7egDQ9lPg
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn7egDQ9lPg
I have not seen that John Oliver segment before, but I have had personal experience with this.
I handled the final affairs for a family member who wished to be donated to science. This family member died unexpectedly and many decades before you’d expect people to make advance and specific arrangements for anatomical donation.
So we got to work. We engaged with what we learned was an outfit based in California that was not up front that they would part out your deceased loved one to researchers who require specific organs for research.
Our second attempt was a university that runs a “body farm” which was actually the specific wish of the deceased, and so we were able to make that happen in short order, which we didn’t expect.
It taught me to only trust universities with this sort of thing.
I handled the final affairs for a family member who wished to be donated to science. This family member died unexpectedly and many decades before you’d expect people to make advance and specific arrangements for anatomical donation.
So we got to work. We engaged with what we learned was an outfit based in California that was not up front that they would part out your deceased loved one to researchers who require specific organs for research.
Our second attempt was a university that runs a “body farm” which was actually the specific wish of the deceased, and so we were able to make that happen in short order, which we didn’t expect.
It taught me to only trust universities with this sort of thing.
> It taught me to only trust universities with this sort of thing
What do you make of TFA in this case? Does it erode that trust or would you go the same route again?
What do you make of TFA in this case? Does it erode that trust or would you go the same route again?
The case discussed in TFA is an outlier. And in some places (including the state university we worked with) these programs are regulated, licensed, and inspected, with varying efficacy.
The university we worked with is a known pioneer in a particular field of decomposition study with a small number of donors per year. For this institute specifically there just isn’t room for shenanigans.
Generally though, the difference in process, licensing paperwork (for the specific donation), the nature of the conversations you have with the employees involved, was all very different between the universities and profit based anatomical donation outfits. The ones that weren’t affiliated with a university felt extremely transactional and not really concerned with your concerns.
Edit: typo
The university we worked with is a known pioneer in a particular field of decomposition study with a small number of donors per year. For this institute specifically there just isn’t room for shenanigans.
Generally though, the difference in process, licensing paperwork (for the specific donation), the nature of the conversations you have with the employees involved, was all very different between the universities and profit based anatomical donation outfits. The ones that weren’t affiliated with a university felt extremely transactional and not really concerned with your concerns.
Edit: typo
White sugar, from sugar beet, comes about from processing with bone char as a filtering agent.
It's not always animal bone . . .
It's not always animal bone . . .
Using dozens of contemporary written accounts in Belgian, German and French archives, three researchers including our Archaeological Director Professor Tony Pollard have come to the conclusion that bones of the Waterloo dead were plundered from 1834 onwards, and used in the process of refining sugar in Belgian sugar mills.
Aaaaannnd that's another what's-everything-that-could-possibly-go-wrong hypothetical, confirmed as actually happening in the wild.
IMHO, the fact that this bizarre failure of integrity can happen, around cadavers donated to students/research, at one of the most prestigious institutions.... makes me wonder about the related opt-in of being an organ donor.
(Example: If I'm recovering nicely in the hospital, then someone crashes their Lamborghini, and they urgently need a replacement vital organ, does being a conveniently-located registered organ donor, with healthy low-vice giblets... mean that I have to be concerned about hospital administrators with syringes.)
IMHO, the fact that this bizarre failure of integrity can happen, around cadavers donated to students/research, at one of the most prestigious institutions.... makes me wonder about the related opt-in of being an organ donor.
(Example: If I'm recovering nicely in the hospital, then someone crashes their Lamborghini, and they urgently need a replacement vital organ, does being a conveniently-located registered organ donor, with healthy low-vice giblets... mean that I have to be concerned about hospital administrators with syringes.)
I would think the obvious difference is that people are paying less attention to cadavers in the morgue, and more attention to patients who are "recovering well" - not that it would be impossible, but if those administrators did underhanded things repeatedly it would be hard to conceal for long.
That particular tongue-in-cheek scenario, you could detect by excessive donations of new hospital wings.
Sounds like an episode of the Frankenstein chronicles...
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