Auto dealer Napleton fined $10M for illegal fees and discrimination(ftc.gov)
ftc.gov
Auto dealer Napleton fined $10M for illegal fees and discrimination
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/04/ftc-takes-action-against-multistate-auto-dealer-napleton-sneaking-illegal-junk-fees-bills
7 comments
You will want to contact the FTC Consumer Response Center (877-382-4357) to receive information for applying for restitution as part of this action.
Thanks for the heads-up!
The $10M fine is going directly to their victims. Maybe you can get part of it.
I'm sorry you had that experience. I've helped dozens of people buy cars from them and they are notorious for this. It's a shame, most dealers do this crap. It's ridiculous.
+1 they literally did the exact same thing to me a few months back. I'm still trying to get my money back from them.
What's sad is their Better Business Bureau rating is A+.
The customer review rating however is 1.22 out of 5.
https://www.bbb.org/us/il/oakbrook-terrace/profile/new-car-d...
The customer review rating however is 1.22 out of 5.
https://www.bbb.org/us/il/oakbrook-terrace/profile/new-car-d...
Serious question: Was the BBB always a joke? I remember 30 years ago it was generally regarded as a trusted and neutral entity. Much like Consumer Reports still is. (Yeah, people have their quibbles with CR’s methodologies and verdicts, but I don't see anyone question their integrity)
But now I wonder if we (or just I?) were all just too unsophisticated to see that BBB had been captured by the businesses they purport to review.
But now I wonder if we (or just I?) were all just too unsophisticated to see that BBB had been captured by the businesses they purport to review.
They've always been the OG Yelp protection racket.
The BBB is a for profit company who's customers are businesses not consumers so I'm not surprised by this rating.
>According to the complaint, the dealerships would often wait until the end of the hours-long negotiation process to sneak junk fees for add-on products and services into consumers’ purchase contracts, which often run as long as 60 pages. These junk fees were often added despite consumers specifically declining the add-ons or having confirmed prices that did not include the add-ons. In other cases, the consumers were falsely told the add-ons were free or were a requirement to purchase or finance their vehicle.
The F&I office at a car dealership is just such a terrible place. Even if they're not outright trying to cheat you like this, they flood the zone with fast talk about options and numbers, with a healthy dollop of scare tactics to get you to buy "protection plans" you don't need. It's this bizarre mix of complimenting you and insulting your intelligence -- "you seem like a smart guy so I'm sure you're looking at the extended protection plan!"
Everything else aside, buying a Tesla was refreshing because I was able to buy a new car on the internet like I'd buy a new blender on Amazon. No "the price is this if you finance and that if you don't," no push for warranties or prepaid service plans, and no obfuscation around finance rates and payments, etc. I ordered and paid for the car online, went to the store to unlock it with my phone, and drove off.
The F&I office at a car dealership is just such a terrible place. Even if they're not outright trying to cheat you like this, they flood the zone with fast talk about options and numbers, with a healthy dollop of scare tactics to get you to buy "protection plans" you don't need. It's this bizarre mix of complimenting you and insulting your intelligence -- "you seem like a smart guy so I'm sure you're looking at the extended protection plan!"
Everything else aside, buying a Tesla was refreshing because I was able to buy a new car on the internet like I'd buy a new blender on Amazon. No "the price is this if you finance and that if you don't," no push for warranties or prepaid service plans, and no obfuscation around finance rates and payments, etc. I ordered and paid for the car online, went to the store to unlock it with my phone, and drove off.
>The F&I office at a car dealership is just such a terrible place. Even if they're not outright trying to cheat you like this,
Yeah, my reaction to that rap sheet was, "wait, that's illegal and actually enforced"? Um FTC, you've got a realllllly long list ahead of you. (Not that it's a bad thing to actually enforce this stuff.)
Yeah, my reaction to that rap sheet was, "wait, that's illegal and actually enforced"? Um FTC, you've got a realllllly long list ahead of you. (Not that it's a bad thing to actually enforce this stuff.)
Yeah generally people don't buy a car frequently enough to navigate the bullshit, plus you kinda get emotionally invested during the 3 hours they make you hang around, softening you up.
I have had pretty good luck laying on my don't give a shit demeanor extra thick.
Out of 7 car purchases in 10 years I have had one instance where I should have walked out because the extended warranty BS was insulting (Honda) and once I threatened to walk if they didn't Due Bill a replacement second key - he didn't like that at all... (BMW).
I have had pretty good luck laying on my don't give a shit demeanor extra thick.
Out of 7 car purchases in 10 years I have had one instance where I should have walked out because the extended warranty BS was insulting (Honda) and once I threatened to walk if they didn't Due Bill a replacement second key - he didn't like that at all... (BMW).
These ads for AutoTrader are so funny though because it's "we don't add hidden fees" instead it's "we bought Kelly Blue book so now our prices seem to be fair but are probably the same $2k higher anyways".
Glass prison or dirty prison? I suppose it depends on one's confidence in wading through the scammers but getting a better deal. Find cars that have been on the lot almost 30 days - they need to dump them before the dealer has to pay the bank.
Glass prison or dirty prison? I suppose it depends on one's confidence in wading through the scammers but getting a better deal. Find cars that have been on the lot almost 30 days - they need to dump them before the dealer has to pay the bank.
> F&I office
NGL I actually laughed at the last one. It wasn't intentional, just as they made a specific comment about part of the drivetrain, I couldn't take them seriously anymore.
They didn't really know what to do about that, which helped things out.
> Everything else aside, buying a Tesla was refreshing because I was able to buy a new car on the internet like I'd buy a new blender on Amazon.
Saturn did this. I think Scion did too, but could be wrong on that. My first 2 car purchase experience were at Saturn dealerships and TBF it left me ill-prepared for the 'typical' dealership experience.
I will say that Truecar was pretty helpful in purchasing one of my cars; at the time I wound up getting invoice on a custom order without a bit of haggling about price. They did do the F&I bit but honestly it was fairly low pressure, (helped it was late in the day and the end of the month so they wanted it on the books.)
My last purchase, I was referred by a friend, the salesfolks were up front and didn't upcharge. Yeah they did the F&I thing but were otherwise as close to the Saturn experience as I ever could have wanted.
> with a healthy dollop of scare tactics to get you to buy "protection plans" you don't need.
Some of them are kinda useful, but case dependent.
- My WRX, I opted for the special windshield coat due to my work route at the time being -terrible- for windshields (I went through 2 in one year on my previous car...) And sure enough that crap worked. Between coating applications you could see the dimples. I also opted for Rim protection on that car. In my case it paid for itself, because #PureMichigan
- I've -never- opted for an enhanced warranty. I typically take the cost of replacing the most expensive component that could fail within 5 years (and/or the mileage I'd expect to drive in that time) and not be covered within the provided warranties, and compare to what they want for an extended plan. It's almost never worth doing.
> "the price is this if you finance and that if you don't,"
Finance/incentives are weird on the surface, but If you think about 'X$ cash back OR Y% APR through <financing arm>' (where Y is better-ish than common rate,) It's really just buying off the extra interest, like points on a mortgage. Depending on where your credit is at, that financing-arm option may be a better one than others anyway (always shop around though.)
NGL I actually laughed at the last one. It wasn't intentional, just as they made a specific comment about part of the drivetrain, I couldn't take them seriously anymore.
They didn't really know what to do about that, which helped things out.
> Everything else aside, buying a Tesla was refreshing because I was able to buy a new car on the internet like I'd buy a new blender on Amazon.
Saturn did this. I think Scion did too, but could be wrong on that. My first 2 car purchase experience were at Saturn dealerships and TBF it left me ill-prepared for the 'typical' dealership experience.
I will say that Truecar was pretty helpful in purchasing one of my cars; at the time I wound up getting invoice on a custom order without a bit of haggling about price. They did do the F&I bit but honestly it was fairly low pressure, (helped it was late in the day and the end of the month so they wanted it on the books.)
My last purchase, I was referred by a friend, the salesfolks were up front and didn't upcharge. Yeah they did the F&I thing but were otherwise as close to the Saturn experience as I ever could have wanted.
> with a healthy dollop of scare tactics to get you to buy "protection plans" you don't need.
Some of them are kinda useful, but case dependent.
- My WRX, I opted for the special windshield coat due to my work route at the time being -terrible- for windshields (I went through 2 in one year on my previous car...) And sure enough that crap worked. Between coating applications you could see the dimples. I also opted for Rim protection on that car. In my case it paid for itself, because #PureMichigan
- I've -never- opted for an enhanced warranty. I typically take the cost of replacing the most expensive component that could fail within 5 years (and/or the mileage I'd expect to drive in that time) and not be covered within the provided warranties, and compare to what they want for an extended plan. It's almost never worth doing.
> "the price is this if you finance and that if you don't,"
Finance/incentives are weird on the surface, but If you think about 'X$ cash back OR Y% APR through <financing arm>' (where Y is better-ish than common rate,) It's really just buying off the extra interest, like points on a mortgage. Depending on where your credit is at, that financing-arm option may be a better one than others anyway (always shop around though.)
>I think Scion did too, but could be wrong on that.
Incidentally my first new car was a Scion and the sales process wasn’t nearly as smooth as they’d like you to think it was.
The extent of the ”Pure Pricing” system was that a dealership posted a menu of the vehicle and service prices, and that was the price you paid. It wasn’t a nationally set price — the dealer could price the car as they wished, and everyone who walks in pays that price.
All that really changed about the dealership experience was that once I picked a car on the lot, there was no price negotiation to do, so they handed me right off to the Toyota dealership’s F&I guy and it was the standard slimy F&I experience from there.
It certainly was not an experience where I was able to go to Scion Dot Com, choose the car, arrange financing and trade-in online, and the delivery appointment is a quick thing where you drop your trade and go. That was the experience with Tesla; I spent all of 15 minutes physically at the store on delivery day and 10 of it was just me adjusting the seats/mirrors and logging into Spotify.
Incidentally my first new car was a Scion and the sales process wasn’t nearly as smooth as they’d like you to think it was.
The extent of the ”Pure Pricing” system was that a dealership posted a menu of the vehicle and service prices, and that was the price you paid. It wasn’t a nationally set price — the dealer could price the car as they wished, and everyone who walks in pays that price.
All that really changed about the dealership experience was that once I picked a car on the lot, there was no price negotiation to do, so they handed me right off to the Toyota dealership’s F&I guy and it was the standard slimy F&I experience from there.
It certainly was not an experience where I was able to go to Scion Dot Com, choose the car, arrange financing and trade-in online, and the delivery appointment is a quick thing where you drop your trade and go. That was the experience with Tesla; I spent all of 15 minutes physically at the store on delivery day and 10 of it was just me adjusting the seats/mirrors and logging into Spotify.
I wonder how this is not a felony charge?
Exactly. Their revenues are approximately half a billion dollars. The 10 million-dollar fine will do nothing. A few days in jail for the senior people would have a much bigger effect.
Civil enforcement action by federal agencies does not preclude criminal prosecution, which often takes longer when both occur for similar conduct.
But, especially in cases where civil enforcement is on behalf of and recovers money for harmed individuals, it's often higher priority as well as being faster because their is a lower barrier to initiation.
But, especially in cases where civil enforcement is on behalf of and recovers money for harmed individuals, it's often higher priority as well as being faster because their is a lower barrier to initiation.
It is a civil violation not a criminal violation.
Fraud is criminal. They should have filed criminal charges.
My original comment was misinformed. I did not realize the full scope of civil law.
According to 815 ILCS 505 there are only three defined instances that warrant a felony charge and this is only if there is a previous conviction(misdemeanor).
I'll leave it to you to show me where in the U.S.C. there is an opportunity to charge them with a felony.
According to 815 ILCS 505 there are only three defined instances that warrant a felony charge and this is only if there is a previous conviction(misdemeanor).
I'll leave it to you to show me where in the U.S.C. there is an opportunity to charge them with a felony.
18 USC 1001, plus others. Mail fraud would be one vehicle. Also conspiracy.
Does the FTC accuse them of lying to federal authorities? That's what 18 USC 1001 is about. (It's Ken White's archetypical example of a bullshit statute, for what it's worth).
My error. I should have said 18 USC 1001 and the following entries all under Chapter 47. There's quite a few examples there. There are also a bunch under Chapter 63.
It's about rich people and C levels.
Those people are nearly immune from criminal wrongdoings.
Those people are nearly immune from criminal wrongdoings.
As long as they're screwing over regular folks. Mess with other rich people and all bets are off. E.g. Elizabeth Holmes.
OP here: I run a popular youtube channel helping people get fair car deals (search YAA). We are building a crowdsourced database of reviews to find dealers who are doing this type of stuff: https://joinyaa.com/car-dealer-reviews/results/
Thank you OP. Wish I had found you earlier this year before buying a car from them!
Good to see action that actually protects the interests of the little guy. Seems like a rarity these days - to the extent that I almost find the good news suspect - but I'll take the W and move on.
Buy a Tesla. Its the only way to put a stop to this.
Buy a bicycle. It puts a stop to this and doesn’t pollute.
The number one cause of micro plastics near waterways comes from car tires.
The number one cause of micro plastics near waterways comes from car tires.
Or from any number of "no haggle" dealers. There are plenty.
No it’s not, and I’d actively encourage not buying a Tesla
Then continue the fever dream nightmare that is the car dealership.
I bought my last car (an Audi) at Carmax. Got within spitting distance of the price I wanted from their list price. A week later, they listed the same car in a higher trim. Carmax swapped the cars; I just paid the difference. It was like buying a TV at Best Buy. But with a better return policy.
I don't think you have to buy a Muskmobile to avoid rapacious dealers.
I don't think you have to buy a Muskmobile to avoid rapacious dealers.
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Walk into a dealer and say "I will pay that price on the window, but on the condition you won't even try to upsell me in F&I." Aside from a minority of shady dealers, most regular car dealers will smile sweetly and tell you where to sign and who to make out the check to.
Tesla just formalizes this by forbidding negotiation. Some people like that. But historically people like to negotiate on big purchases. It's a game, how close to invoice can you get, etc. Can't really have it both ways.
And frankly, most people like to pick from inventory, too, and have options. Tesla doesn't carry inventory nor do they really have much in the way of options. They're catering to a niche. People who are okay with a limited selection and are willing to wait.
Tesla just formalizes this by forbidding negotiation. Some people like that. But historically people like to negotiate on big purchases. It's a game, how close to invoice can you get, etc. Can't really have it both ways.
And frankly, most people like to pick from inventory, too, and have options. Tesla doesn't carry inventory nor do they really have much in the way of options. They're catering to a niche. People who are okay with a limited selection and are willing to wait.
That is such a naive take. If you promise to pay MSRP they’re going to do everything possible to take you as a mark. No honor amongst thieves.
Buy a Tesla.
Buy a Tesla.
LOL. I work with dealers as part of my job. They're just going to sell you what you want. The easiest marks are the folks who think they know how to negotiate. If you are straightforward and you follow through, they aren't going to screw around trying to get another few bucks, they're going to take the sale.
Don't just go make Elon richer.
Don't just go make Elon richer.
>Walk into a dealer and say "I will pay that price on the window, but on the condition you won't even try to upsell me in F&I." Aside from a minority of shady dealers, most regular car dealers will smile sweetly and tell you where to sign and who to make out the check to.
Every dealership I've been to will nod their head then precede to upsell you in F&I. They'll make sure you don't actually get to F&I until you've been their for 5 hours where you're so tired, hungry, and agitated you just want to gtfo with your car. That's not to mention todays market where every dealer acts like and prices like its a privilege to be able to pay them $50,000+ for a vehicle.
Every dealership I've been to will nod their head then precede to upsell you in F&I. They'll make sure you don't actually get to F&I until you've been their for 5 hours where you're so tired, hungry, and agitated you just want to gtfo with your car. That's not to mention todays market where every dealer acts like and prices like its a privilege to be able to pay them $50,000+ for a vehicle.
I find that if you play no games and you are completely honest about your intentions, they'll just do what you want. If they start to act a little shady, just get up and head for the door. You'd be surprised how quickly the sales guy (or F&I, same difference) gets the picture. You don't let a sticker price customer walk over some missed upsells. Source: I work for a company that writes software for dealers, I pick up a lot of insider knowledge along the way, including strategy. And I've bought like 30 cars over my life. These days I just get a price by email and then walk in to grab the keys. I rarely have to stand up and walk towards the door, because I know who the shitty dealers are in the area and I avoid them. Most of the major manufacturer dealers aren't particularly shady.
where are you people buying your cars?
(setting aside the pandemic)
you always want to do your research before ever going to a dealer, any dealer. after that you go and see the car + test drive it.
after that you talk $$$. if you drag this process for more than 30-40 min or try stupid stuff, as a customer I will get up and walk. Also for my last car the dealer had a guy that was assigned specifically for internet sales and I actually saw the car in person + worked out all the details through email.
again, as a customer (minus the pandemic shiftshow which will eventually die down) you have the power to decide what is and what is not acceptable.
(setting aside the pandemic)
you always want to do your research before ever going to a dealer, any dealer. after that you go and see the car + test drive it.
after that you talk $$$. if you drag this process for more than 30-40 min or try stupid stuff, as a customer I will get up and walk. Also for my last car the dealer had a guy that was assigned specifically for internet sales and I actually saw the car in person + worked out all the details through email.
again, as a customer (minus the pandemic shiftshow which will eventually die down) you have the power to decide what is and what is not acceptable.
Start a stopwatch when you sit down. Tell them they have 15 minutes to complete the sale or you walk. They can save time by discarding the upsells you're going to decline.
> Start a stopwatch when you sit down
In this car market they’d be crazy to give up a car without upselling, given manufacturers’ prohibitions on raising prices.
In this car market they’d be crazy to give up a car without upselling, given manufacturers’ prohibitions on raising prices.
That's a fallacy. It's kinda like thinking a real estate agent is always going to get you the best price. No, he's going to get whatever results in a guaranteed sale right now. Dealers are no different. Sure, they'll sell the car to someone else if you walk. But you're right there, paying the price they asked for. They're not going to quibble over F&I.
You know you don't have to finance a car with a dealer loan, right?
Just walk away.
Lmao
I’m happy to see this.