Six reasons the EU should force the iPhone to use USB-C(thenextweb.com)
thenextweb.com
Six reasons the EU should force the iPhone to use USB-C
https://thenextweb.com/news/usb-c-on-iphone
13 comments
Legislation like this might make sense now but in the long run silly laws like this cause more harm than good. Do we really want to lock in the charging form factor for the next who knows how long?
The proposed legislation doesn't forbid the usage of whatever port Apple wants to use, they simply need to provide an USB-C option as well.
Apple's misinformation: "We remain concerned that strict regulation mandating just one type of connector stifles innovation rather than encouraging it, which in turn will harm consumers in Europe and around the world."
Reality: "Breton said manufacturers, including Apple, could choose to offer two charging ports on their devices if they wanted to keep a non-USB-C connector"
It's ironic. Many people hailing Jobs as a visionary said that placing design restrictions on Apple products forced designers to think out of the box and produce a superior product. Well now, here's a design restriction for you.
Apple's misinformation: "We remain concerned that strict regulation mandating just one type of connector stifles innovation rather than encouraging it, which in turn will harm consumers in Europe and around the world."
Reality: "Breton said manufacturers, including Apple, could choose to offer two charging ports on their devices if they wanted to keep a non-USB-C connector"
It's ironic. Many people hailing Jobs as a visionary said that placing design restrictions on Apple products forced designers to think out of the box and produce a superior product. Well now, here's a design restriction for you.
Legislation like this already allows all people in the EU to reuse standardized chargers.
This is one of the (now) small things I appreciate every single day since I only have to manage ~2 usb connector types instead of 10+ proprietory ones.
This is one of the (now) small things I appreciate every single day since I only have to manage ~2 usb connector types instead of 10+ proprietory ones.
I still have 4/5. While I appreciate electric razors/toothbrushes that use USB they all still seem to have proprietary cables and connectors for no very good reason.
I dont care about apple but id love to be able to charge all electronic devices with the same cables.
I dont care about apple but id love to be able to charge all electronic devices with the same cables.
> no very good reason.
This is the thing that gets me … surely the cheapest solution for the manufacture of the cheap electronics is a usb mini connector. But instead they slap a usb wall brick with a random connector from the pets bin to plug into the device.
Why!?
This is the thing that gets me … surely the cheapest solution for the manufacture of the cheap electronics is a usb mini connector. But instead they slap a usb wall brick with a random connector from the pets bin to plug into the device.
Why!?
Yeh, the problem is that to force iPhones to use usb-c, they need to force everything to use usb-c, for the forseeable future, regardless of what other standards there are to be invented.
It seems that alot of these articles tend to forget that devices exist, and will be created, beyond iphones.
It seems that alot of these articles tend to forget that devices exist, and will be created, beyond iphones.
I don't see why they wouldn't allow changing the standard in a 5-10 years like it did with micro-usb to usb-c.
So in say 5-10 years there would be 2 dominant connectors in the market for phones?? How would that be unlike the last 5-10 years?
The past 5-10 years saw 2 dominant connectors from phones thanks to this EU initiative. If EU didn't actually make good on their promise to punish those companies that didn't conform then you'd start seeing the industry diverge again and we'd have 10+ connectors again in 10 years. So it seems like you'd be in favor of pushing Apple to USB-C here, since you liked the standardization.
You can't just say "Apple can do whatever they want, but every other company has to fall in line!". If you don't want other companies to do whatever they want then you wont let Apple to do it either.
You can't just say "Apple can do whatever they want, but every other company has to fall in line!". If you don't want other companies to do whatever they want then you wont let Apple to do it either.
In the UK at least, the apple connector is the dominant one, with >50% of the share. The 'odd ones out' are the non apple phone makers. Perhaps they should be forced to use lighting connectors.
Absolutely would love to see apple on usb-c, I honestly dont know why they have not, unless they are waiting for a mini usb-c or just trying to keep the current product cycle going a little longer.
This EU initiative is fantastic, it worked, it continues to work. For all the abuse the EU gets for its bright ideas, this was an actual issue back in the day and they have had a material impact in this space.
Absolutely would love to see apple on usb-c, I honestly dont know why they have not, unless they are waiting for a mini usb-c or just trying to keep the current product cycle going a little longer.
This EU initiative is fantastic, it worked, it continues to work. For all the abuse the EU gets for its bright ideas, this was an actual issue back in the day and they have had a material impact in this space.
It's would still be one or two less. And the older one would anyway have old cables left.
Realistically there are 3 unique connectors at the moment. Prior to USB-C (briefly at least) there were 2. I would love to just have one connector, but without going all liberterian, it hardly seems sensible to legislate which exact piece of technology that is.
The problem of 100 different phone chargers was resolved 10 years ago. There are actual problems in the world, that there are 2 types of bits of metal you shove in the back of your phone doesnt even rank on the list.
The problem of 100 different phone chargers was resolved 10 years ago. There are actual problems in the world, that there are 2 types of bits of metal you shove in the back of your phone doesnt even rank on the list.
I don't believe that time forced micro-usb specifically, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing usb-c or lightning right now.
But who will invest in the new connector. Will they have to work with the EU first to get it approved?
It's easy enough to let the law expire in five or ten years.
> five or ten years
thats a pretty wide range. What is the basis for these numbers?
thats a pretty wide range. What is the basis for these numbers?
It's a wide range because the exact number doesn't matter.
USB-C is replacing ports that existed for 7 and 25 years, depending on which end you look at. It's not going to change again any time soon.
USB-C is replacing ports that existed for 7 and 25 years, depending on which end you look at. It's not going to change again any time soon.
It’s the sixth iteration of device-side USB connector in around 25 years. What’s the basis to think this is the last one for a long time when we’ve seen new ones introduced about every five years so far?
Original, mini, micro... micro again if you really want to stretch it, C. How do you get 6? Are you counting type A 3.0 and micro 3.0 as "separate iterations"? A device that was on micro had zero need to swap back to a full-size connector and then back again to micro.
> What’s the basis to think this is the last one for a long time when we’ve seen new ones introduced about every five years so far?
A big part is that this is also replacing type A plugs. Also it's been continuously upgraded without any changes needed, after being heavily designed around that concept, with us currently 7 years in with no hint of wanting to replace it.
> What’s the basis to think this is the last one for a long time when we’ve seen new ones introduced about every five years so far?
A big part is that this is also replacing type A plugs. Also it's been continuously upgraded without any changes needed, after being heavily designed around that concept, with us currently 7 years in with no hint of wanting to replace it.
It was a simplistic method, but I think sufficient: I counted the different device-side cable ends in my box o’ USB cables.
Giant B, mini B, micro B, the giant B with the extra dormer on top of it, the micro B with the extra bit next to it, and USB-C.
Literally all six of them are within reach from my desk (my monitor takes a dormer version, an external HD housing takes the extra-wide version, Arduino clones take a giant original and mini, and most devices take a micro-B or -C.)
> Are you counting type A 3.0 and micro 3.0 as "separate iterations"?
I counted only device-side differences (as the point of the EU law is to reduce e-waste by reducing device-side variation). I didn’t make any distinction on variations in the host (A) side of the cable.
Giant B, mini B, micro B, the giant B with the extra dormer on top of it, the micro B with the extra bit next to it, and USB-C.
Literally all six of them are within reach from my desk (my monitor takes a dormer version, an external HD housing takes the extra-wide version, Arduino clones take a giant original and mini, and most devices take a micro-B or -C.)
> Are you counting type A 3.0 and micro 3.0 as "separate iterations"?
I counted only device-side differences (as the point of the EU law is to reduce e-waste by reducing device-side variation). I didn’t make any distinction on variations in the host (A) side of the cable.
> It was a simplistic method, but I think sufficient: I counted the different device-side cable ends in my box o’ USB cables.
When you're trying to make a point about how often they change things, it doesn't make sense to list two variants that came out at the same time.
Also micro and micro 3.0 came out a year and a half apart, so that's even less reason to count them as different iterations.
When you're trying to make a point about how often they change things, it doesn't make sense to list two variants that came out at the same time.
Also micro and micro 3.0 came out a year and a half apart, so that's even less reason to count them as different iterations.
If the teams who created those variations had no valid reason to create them, I agree they should be excluded from the count and treated as errors in technical and/or business judgment. I don’t see evidence to support that conclusion and instead default to thinking they were created for a reason that appeared valid to the smart people working on the problem and approving them in the USB standards process (and the proliferation is obviously contributing to eWaste).
Perhaps the USB-C teams finally got a forever connector designed on the N+1th spin, but my experience suggests that while they learned and made it better, we’re nowhere near done evolving in electronics and cable connectivity yet.
https://xkcd.com/927/
Perhaps the USB-C teams finally got a forever connector designed on the N+1th spin, but my experience suggests that while they learned and made it better, we’re nowhere near done evolving in electronics and cable connectivity yet.
https://xkcd.com/927/
Those variants were valid but there is a limit to how much they should add to the count of iterations. Variants and iterations are not the same, when multiple variants can come out at the same time.
Also the 3.0 variants don't matter for charging.
USB-C finally manages to have high speed pins and be small at the same time, and they gave it extra expandability too. There's no reason it needs to be updated any time soon. And they already have done some major updates but they've kept the same plug.
And that xkcd, eh. USB isn't exactly competing with USB, and I fully expect old versions of B to die out like mini did.
Also the 3.0 variants don't matter for charging.
USB-C finally manages to have high speed pins and be small at the same time, and they gave it extra expandability too. There's no reason it needs to be updated any time soon. And they already have done some major updates but they've kept the same plug.
And that xkcd, eh. USB isn't exactly competing with USB, and I fully expect old versions of B to die out like mini did.
OK, if the contention/confusion is over a word, please consider my post upthread to indicate that the USB standards body approved 6 prior non-interchangeable variants which contributed to e-waste rather than approving 6 prior iterations which contributed to e-waste.
They most certainly do matter for charging when you can't plug the larger plug into the smaller hole on a device.
They most certainly do matter for charging when you can't plug the larger plug into the smaller hole on a device.
I see. I thought you were worried about them changing it soon and making existing cables obsolete. If you're instead upset about waste caused by having too many kinds of cable, sure I guess. For the USB cables I've personally retired, it's almost all because they wore out, so I'm not notably worried about that kind of waste personally. I'm just worried about how long I can keep using the cables I have. And changes like the 3.0 expanded ports don't bother me for yet another reason, because the old cables always worked fine for charging new devices.
Maybe, these things have a tendency to get political and hard to change. The more people involved the harder it is to change. The US is still not using the metric system because it's too big. Legislation like this can get stuck. I'm not sure it will but there is a high risk.
To be clear, I'm not saying to repeal it after five or ten years, I'm saying to make the original law only last that long. Nothing's going to get stuck or need to be changed that way. And this is a law that doesn't need employees, so you won't have that kind of pressure.
Oh actually that does fix most of my issues with the law. If it had an expiration date.
My current bet is they go portless rather than switching to USB C, and that would be the day I move from iPhone. Hopefully these open (and privacy) oriented android/linux phones get mature in the meantime.
Wireless charging is a huge waste of energy and doesn't really go well with the environmental moves Apple has been making (if that was their real motivation).
I do understand the convenience of wireless charging in situations like driving, but like 90%+ of charging is at home during the night where there is no excuse for just plugging it in. And I want my damn cable for data transfer (but this is just me).
Wireless charging is a huge waste of energy and doesn't really go well with the environmental moves Apple has been making (if that was their real motivation).
I do understand the convenience of wireless charging in situations like driving, but like 90%+ of charging is at home during the night where there is no excuse for just plugging it in. And I want my damn cable for data transfer (but this is just me).
The intention is clearly that the consumer be able to charge any phone using a generic usb-c charger. Apple's proprietary wireless charging would fail that criteria.
"Going portless" wouldn't save Apple they still have to use a generic technology between the wall socket and the phone.
I imagine that if Apple made their technology an industry standard, that a) others could implement, and b) Apple were themselves governed by, then the EU would consider it in addition to usb-c.
But really, why bother, it's so inefficient ... and it might get rejected by the regulators on the basis of energy wastage alone ...
"Going portless" wouldn't save Apple they still have to use a generic technology between the wall socket and the phone.
I imagine that if Apple made their technology an industry standard, that a) others could implement, and b) Apple were themselves governed by, then the EU would consider it in addition to usb-c.
But really, why bother, it's so inefficient ... and it might get rejected by the regulators on the basis of energy wastage alone ...
We recently moved to wireless charging to reduce the number of cables that break and have to be replaced.
I don’t need the port to be removed, but I doubt I would regularly use USB-C. It is more difficult to plug in than lightning, and will still suffer from the same cable issues.
I don’t need the port to be removed, but I doubt I would regularly use USB-C. It is more difficult to plug in than lightning, and will still suffer from the same cable issues.
Wireless charging isn't immune to failures either. A recent example of this is Google's Pixel 4 device, introduced in Oct. 2019. Apparently if the phone chassis expands over time, the rear antennas (including wireless charging and NFC) get disconnected and stop working. People experiencing this issue, including myself, are not able to reliably use wireless charging, and using NFC (e.g. for Google Pay) requires us to put pressure on the rear of the phone.
Granted, Apple seems to have much better hardware quality control than most vendors and iPhones might not ever have this issue.
Granted, Apple seems to have much better hardware quality control than most vendors and iPhones might not ever have this issue.
I agree portless move feels inevitable but I think we're quite some way away from that for the reasons you mentioned.
There seems to be little benefit in the jump right now; the phones are already waterproof, they already make money from the accessories, they will only anger a lot of people who still use the cable. It feels like right now portless doesn't bring that much positives over the negatives for them.
As for USB-C, I found it weird in their presentation how much they talked it up for their iPad mini, but don't want to use it on the iPhone. If EU push them into a corner they may just pay the fines year after year instead of changing, they can afford it.
There seems to be little benefit in the jump right now; the phones are already waterproof, they already make money from the accessories, they will only anger a lot of people who still use the cable. It feels like right now portless doesn't bring that much positives over the negatives for them.
As for USB-C, I found it weird in their presentation how much they talked it up for their iPad mini, but don't want to use it on the iPhone. If EU push them into a corner they may just pay the fines year after year instead of changing, they can afford it.
The only technical reason I can thing off is that the inside space needed for the usb C port is (considerably) bigger and they don't like it. But this is just a guess...
I would expect same as you that the move to only wireless would not happen soon, but this regulation could push them to do it a lot sooner. There is a 2yrs transition period mentioned in the regulation IIRC, so that sets the stage for iPhone 15/16 to be wireless, and they just stop selling others in EU.
what is that you don't like about portless, that was acceptable with the lightning cable?
- Efficiency of wireless charging first of all, and I consider this to be a pretty firm reason against when there is no real benefit from wireless (nightly charging). I do recognize the added benefit from wireless charging in certain not so common situations, but not enough to justify making it the only option.
- I have been involved in project that included wireless chargers for phones used by automotive OEMs, and those can be pretty hard to qualify. On one design we had the type and level of radiation that is considered potentially harmful for pacemakers. And having in mind a lot of people would be buying these chargers from unknown and uncertified sources (cheapest one from Wish for e.g.) it makes me dislike them even more. Yes wired dodgy chargers can be bad, but the scope of failures is smaller.
- 3rd reason as I noted is a personal one, I just don't trust wireless as I do wires when it comes to data transfer (physical robustness), and I prefer to use the wired way when it's a reasonable option. This is rooted in the ethernet vs WiFi choice. But this is debatable. Also current speed difference in transfer.
- I have been involved in project that included wireless chargers for phones used by automotive OEMs, and those can be pretty hard to qualify. On one design we had the type and level of radiation that is considered potentially harmful for pacemakers. And having in mind a lot of people would be buying these chargers from unknown and uncertified sources (cheapest one from Wish for e.g.) it makes me dislike them even more. Yes wired dodgy chargers can be bad, but the scope of failures is smaller.
- 3rd reason as I noted is a personal one, I just don't trust wireless as I do wires when it comes to data transfer (physical robustness), and I prefer to use the wired way when it's a reasonable option. This is rooted in the ethernet vs WiFi choice. But this is debatable. Also current speed difference in transfer.
It's slow. Apple especially is far far far behind everyone else when it comes to charging speeds. Tbf Apple wired charging speeds are still very slow compared to competition, but wireless is just abysmal.
And then of course a daily occurence - I lie down in bed, about 5% battery left, want to watch some youtube or whatever - now I can just plug in a cable and continue using my phone. With portless, how exactly am I supposed to do that? With the funny magsafe dongle that you need to be super careful not to detach as you hold the phone and which doesn't really stick on unless you use one of the approved cases? No thanks.
And then of course a daily occurence - I lie down in bed, about 5% battery left, want to watch some youtube or whatever - now I can just plug in a cable and continue using my phone. With portless, how exactly am I supposed to do that? With the funny magsafe dongle that you need to be super careful not to detach as you hold the phone and which doesn't really stick on unless you use one of the approved cases? No thanks.
Charging efficiency, speed, and reliability will get better. Wireless debugging will get better and we will forget it was ever buggy.
We will have plates attached to a cable we can attach (magnetic) when we need to charge a drained battery and watch tv.
These are all solvable issues. Wireless makes the most sense moving forward. That is what the EU should be pushing for. The charging/data cable is a backup and not the primary way to charge
We will have plates attached to a cable we can attach (magnetic) when we need to charge a drained battery and watch tv.
These are all solvable issues. Wireless makes the most sense moving forward. That is what the EU should be pushing for. The charging/data cable is a backup and not the primary way to charge
FWIW, the EU proposal says they don't want to regulate wireless because there is still a lot of room for innovation and no established shared good solutions.
I think they're doing the right thing there.
I think they're doing the right thing there.
I think they are doing the right near term but not long term. For the very reason wireless charging is in its infancy they should get in front of it. They will be back at square one doing the same thing with wireless chargers in 5 years unless industry leaders agree upon a standard before them.
Sounds to me like someone at the EU saw this as low hanging fruit quick win and yeah sounds good but it’s short sighted.
Sounds to me like someone at the EU saw this as low hanging fruit quick win and yeah sounds good but it’s short sighted.
I develop apps for iOS and Apples wireless debugging tools are extremely unreliable and slow
> and that would be the day I move from iPhone.
Which is why iPhone S Pro(2024) has a USB-C port. Starting at $2699 for 16GB models.
Which is why iPhone S Pro(2024) has a USB-C port. Starting at $2699 for 16GB models.
They will do portless just to give a giant middle finger to the EU. Apple's attitude has gotten so bad recently, it's like they are now just choosing whatever is the worst decision in all cases.
My next laptop will be from frame.work.
My next laptop will be from frame.work.
Seven reasons: Expose everyone to USB exploits.
http://mg.lol/blog/badusb-cables/
http://mg.lol/blog/badusb-cables/
I fail to understand how is this worse than the current situation?
These exploits usually target the PC side. If anything this makes it harder to target iPhones, since you have harder time at making sure your malicious cable would be used on an iPhone, while with USB-Lightning you are sure of it.
If exploits were universal to all platforms than your remark would make sense.
These exploits usually target the PC side. If anything this makes it harder to target iPhones, since you have harder time at making sure your malicious cable would be used on an iPhone, while with USB-Lightning you are sure of it.
If exploits were universal to all platforms than your remark would make sense.
There is a variant of this attack for Apple Lightning USB cables. It is featured in the article you linked.
It is gross negligence to standardize on anything that conflates a data bus with a power socket.
A user should have the expectation that charging a device does not compromise the safety.
A user should have the expectation that charging a device does not compromise the safety.
Contra:
> This is a profoundly stupid way to approach product design and standardisation. What happens in 5 years when someone wants to use a better connector? What if they’d picked USB 3 five years ago?
* https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1441009296540676096
> But Apple has also argued that if the European Union had imposed a common charger in 2009, it would have restricted innovation that led to USB-C and Lightning connectors. In a statement, Apple said that although it welcomed the European Commission’s commitment to protecting the environment, it favored a solution that left the device side of the charging interface open for innovation.
* https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/23/business/european-union-a...
In 2009 we would have been stuck with micro-USB:
> These E.U. meddlers have indeed been clamoring for this legislation since 2009 — Apple didn’t pick that date out of the air. At the time, iPhones used 30-pin iPod USB 1 adapters and most other phones used adapters like Micro-USB and (gag) Mini-USB. You don’t have to be a computer engineer to look back at your lifetime and realize that computer plugs and adapters keep getting smaller and better. Do they really think no one is going to come up with an adapter better than USB-C? Ever?
* https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/09/23/eu-usbc-mandate
> This is a profoundly stupid way to approach product design and standardisation. What happens in 5 years when someone wants to use a better connector? What if they’d picked USB 3 five years ago?
* https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1441009296540676096
> But Apple has also argued that if the European Union had imposed a common charger in 2009, it would have restricted innovation that led to USB-C and Lightning connectors. In a statement, Apple said that although it welcomed the European Commission’s commitment to protecting the environment, it favored a solution that left the device side of the charging interface open for innovation.
* https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/23/business/european-union-a...
In 2009 we would have been stuck with micro-USB:
> These E.U. meddlers have indeed been clamoring for this legislation since 2009 — Apple didn’t pick that date out of the air. At the time, iPhones used 30-pin iPod USB 1 adapters and most other phones used adapters like Micro-USB and (gag) Mini-USB. You don’t have to be a computer engineer to look back at your lifetime and realize that computer plugs and adapters keep getting smaller and better. Do they really think no one is going to come up with an adapter better than USB-C? Ever?
* https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/09/23/eu-usbc-mandate
The argument that the device-side should be left alone doesn't hold much water. All my laptops and phones use USB-C. All of them. Even the Apple laptops in the house. The only thing that requires a whole second set of chargers and cables is the iPhone.
Laptop chargers tend to not have the other end of the cable datachable.
And let's be real, here. This is Apple's fault. Apple alone has been creating this problem, and has been VERY aware than the EU has been pissed, for like a decade.
Apple, what did you think was going to happen?
If Apple hadn't been an asshole here, and tossed out the lightning port 5 years ago, then none of this would have happened.
The EU is forced to legislate because Apple refused to cooperate. And the EU for YEARS told Apple "if you don't cooperate you're forcing us to legislate".
You're also not wrong. This is a big shit sandwidch, and we're all gonna have to take a big bite. But this is VERY much Apple's fault that we're in this mess, and will switch to a different mess due to this legislation.
It's an improvement by miles. Fuck you Apple for holding this back for so long. Literally everyone else did the right thing before the force of law.
Laptop chargers tend to not have the other end of the cable datachable.
And let's be real, here. This is Apple's fault. Apple alone has been creating this problem, and has been VERY aware than the EU has been pissed, for like a decade.
Apple, what did you think was going to happen?
If Apple hadn't been an asshole here, and tossed out the lightning port 5 years ago, then none of this would have happened.
The EU is forced to legislate because Apple refused to cooperate. And the EU for YEARS told Apple "if you don't cooperate you're forcing us to legislate".
You're also not wrong. This is a big shit sandwidch, and we're all gonna have to take a big bite. But this is VERY much Apple's fault that we're in this mess, and will switch to a different mess due to this legislation.
It's an improvement by miles. Fuck you Apple for holding this back for so long. Literally everyone else did the right thing before the force of law.
EU legislators are well-aware that legislating a technical solution is a bad idea, this whole time they tried to get this done through a simple memorandum of understanding where the manufacturers would do it voluntarily and that would let the industry evolve naturally as they pleased, as long as they moved somewhat in lock-step. But Apple refused to adopt what the rest of the industry did and now they're moving to legislate it. Apple brought this upon themselves by being arrogant and selfish.
> What happens in 5 years when someone wants to use a better connector?
Laws change to adapt to the industry's demands. Although, I wonder what this person means by "better connected". USB-C is good enough for computers; is it not good enough for phones?
> it favored a solution that left the device side of the charging interface open for innovation
Apple is lying, of course, so it's good to verify their claims. The proposed legislation doesn't forbid the use of Lightning ports or whatever Apple wants to use. They just need to allow USB-C charging as well. So the field is still open for innovation.
> These E.U. meddlers
Sorry, but if you want to sell your phones in the EU, then you'll have to learn to play by the rules set by the EU citizens. Nobody's forcing you to sell here, and don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Laws change to adapt to the industry's demands. Although, I wonder what this person means by "better connected". USB-C is good enough for computers; is it not good enough for phones?
> it favored a solution that left the device side of the charging interface open for innovation
Apple is lying, of course, so it's good to verify their claims. The proposed legislation doesn't forbid the use of Lightning ports or whatever Apple wants to use. They just need to allow USB-C charging as well. So the field is still open for innovation.
> These E.U. meddlers
Sorry, but if you want to sell your phones in the EU, then you'll have to learn to play by the rules set by the EU citizens. Nobody's forcing you to sell here, and don't let the door hit you on your way out.
> Although, I wonder what this person means by "better connected". USB-C is good enough for computers; is it not good enough for phones?
USB-C is at least the fifth (might be sixth or more) iteration of device-side USB connector. The concern is this legislation will significantly slow the pace of improvement. If the EU passed this in 1997, would we have a DC barrel jack or a USB-B connector on our phones? Is that an improvement for consumers?
USB-C is at least the fifth (might be sixth or more) iteration of device-side USB connector. The concern is this legislation will significantly slow the pace of improvement. If the EU passed this in 1997, would we have a DC barrel jack or a USB-B connector on our phones? Is that an improvement for consumers?
At some point there is more value in standardization than innovation though. EU decided that the point is now for this kind of cable. "What if they did it with cable X" isn't a good argument against it.
> EU decided that the point is now for this kind of cable.
And if they're wrong? How do we get a better option if no one is incentivized to experiment because of legal mandates? How can someone even add a new, perhaps better, option if it's illegal to do so?
And if they're wrong? How do we get a better option if no one is incentivized to experiment because of legal mandates? How can someone even add a new, perhaps better, option if it's illegal to do so?
I was under the impression that the EU did force a change in 2009, and that is part of the reason micro-usb -> usb-A became the defacto standard for Android, and that Apple was forced to ship it's phone chargers with detachable leads for this reason.
That's something that Apple users would have benefitted from, when apple changed to their newer proprietary cable, since they'd only need to swap the cable. Plus the general benefit of the market interoperability that provides lots of cheap 3rd party USB chargers for cars and such like.
edit: looks like they got a voluntary agreement, not an actual law, and Apple was one of the signatories, and it was in place up until in 2014 in various guises:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply
That's something that Apple users would have benefitted from, when apple changed to their newer proprietary cable, since they'd only need to swap the cable. Plus the general benefit of the market interoperability that provides lots of cheap 3rd party USB chargers for cars and such like.
edit: looks like they got a voluntary agreement, not an actual law, and Apple was one of the signatories, and it was in place up until in 2014 in various guises:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply
BS it would hinder innovation. how hard is it to adapt any innovative connector to work with the usb-c format?
Maybe they should apply a little more innovation and make lighnting work with the usb-c format
Maybe they should apply a little more innovation and make lighnting work with the usb-c format
What exactly do you mean by “work with the USB-C format?”. USB-C defines the physical connector.
Would a C-to-Lightning cable count? Because those do exist, and are now what you get in the box with newer iPhones.
Would a C-to-Lightning cable count? Because those do exist, and are now what you get in the box with newer iPhones.
now, integrate that cable into the phone. even make it part of a SoC. that's innovation
For anyone saying "we shouldn't force companies on a specific connector": This legislation started over 10 years ago. Back then Apple said "we need a bit of time to figure out a good way forward. Could you please give it?" and then EU said "Yeah, okay. We trust you will use it wisely." 10 years fast forward: Nothing happened.
Maybe this is a good lesson for industries to not try to play games with legislators if you cannot live with the consequences.
Maybe this is a good lesson for industries to not try to play games with legislators if you cannot live with the consequences.
Apple may have played games and not kept their word but that's not a good argument against."we shouldn't force companies on a specific connector"
Removing and patents around proprietary connectors would make sense. Forcing companies to publish the specifications of their connectors might help. Picking the most popular and locking it in for who knows how long, not such a good idea..
Removing and patents around proprietary connectors would make sense. Forcing companies to publish the specifications of their connectors might help. Picking the most popular and locking it in for who knows how long, not such a good idea..
Standardization is a good thing whether it's an electrical socket, car charger, phone charger, fuel pump nozzle, audio jacks, video jacks, garden hose, or any interface really.
The fact Apple has gotten away with this for so long is impressive. There would be an Unholy shitstorm rained upon Sony if they made their TVs and Play stations have proprietary connectors that required additional adapters to use with non-Sony products
The fact Apple has gotten away with this for so long is impressive. There would be an Unholy shitstorm rained upon Sony if they made their TVs and Play stations have proprietary connectors that required additional adapters to use with non-Sony products
> not such a good idea
Why not? Would you like it if every brand of electrical appliance came with its own proprietary type of wall plug?
Why not? Would you like it if every brand of electrical appliance came with its own proprietary type of wall plug?
Had it been successful 10 years ago, what connector would we have today? Mini USB?
Micro USB was pretty well established 10 years ago. USB 3.0 micro B was just out (2010) and probably would have been a strong contender, since the socket could also accept a USB2 micro B plug.
Yeah, but it was still an absolute bag of crap, utterly horrible to use in every conceivable way.
To be honest so is USB-C. When the connector is not designed for hundreds of matings it will fail sooner than expected. USB-A connector was designed for 12 matings. For USB-C i could not find anything on DDG.
USB-C is rated for 10,000 insertion cycles
I agree, I'm not a huge fan of USB-C either. I used to have the butterfly keyboard MBP that everyone rightly hated and the USB-C sockets, within a month, were all loose enough for the cables to just fall out regularly. Never had that problem with Lightning.
Dumb alternative: what if Apple was forced to give out converters and adapters for free?
ah yes that would solve the environmental issue
My usb-c charging cable is always occupied. phone/oculus/headphones etc. i expect that public spaces will offer usb-c charging cables so you won't even need to carry a cable.
Using someone else's charging cable makes me cringe as much as using someone else's toothbrush.
Anybody who cares AT ALL about privacy or security is horrified by this idea.
Anybody who cares AT ALL about privacy or security is horrified by this idea.
I also care about someone else's shitty power brick frying my device.
thats a legitimate concern, maybe there's a way to verify charging-only ports ? maybe some pins not required for charging can be visibly missing in charge-only cables
There are shops that have so many USB-C cables that they are even selling them. Maybe you should try to get a second one there.
that's not what i m saying (i have spares, thank you). What i mean is that usbc ubiquity is a very good and convenient thing
Not against this but worth remembering that South Koreans were stuck with Internet Explorer because of legislation. https://www.businessinsider.com/south-korea-internet-explore...
The market already handles this fine.
If the lack of a USB-C charging port bothers you that much, you have thousands of other options or ways around this problem.
You don't need government threatening businesses because one company made and stands by a decision you don't like.
If the lack of a USB-C charging port bothers you that much, you have thousands of other options or ways around this problem.
You don't need government threatening businesses because one company made and stands by a decision you don't like.
Thousands of other options is the problem. It's why people have baskets full of different chargers, creating all the e-waste.
No, they don't. Because all chargers today are either USB or USB-C, including the ones Apple sells. In the future they will all be USB-C. They will be that, because it is the only thing that can fast charge.
Apple use lighting connectors on their phones, but the ones they ship now connects to USB-c. Apple does not change ports easily (on their phones), but when they do it is a huge deal that people remember.
Also Apple has been on a modern port since before USB-C existed, which was likely why they created lighting.
Apple use lighting connectors on their phones, but the ones they ship now connects to USB-c. Apple does not change ports easily (on their phones), but when they do it is a huge deal that people remember.
Also Apple has been on a modern port since before USB-C existed, which was likely why they created lighting.
They should drop the cable all together and just do wireless charging? Yes, a lot of wireless plate chargers will need to be put in place but I think it will be a better future rather than cables.
The approach taken doesn’t make sense.
A more reasonable approach that supports innovation, and helps to reduce e-waste, is a multi-part plan:
- Require public disclosure of all technical aspects of physical connectors, whether it is a plug-in port or a magnetic/induction or wireless interface. Require licensing on an FRAND basis, but only for a very limited time period, say 5 years. This gets rid of the lock-in, but helps finance adoption, testing, etc., and also creates public disclosure to support right-to-repair, etc.
- Mandate which types of physical connectors must be supported by different device categories for all EU and member state purchasing regimes, which types of connectors will be provided for in public accommodations, etc., and create strict processes for any granted exceptions. This will help subsidize consolidation, penalize the experience of products that choose to not comply, etc., but it still allows for innovation and change without actually specifying product design choices.
- Lastly, require companies that sell electronics to pay into an e-waste fund on a per-unit manufactured basis. Charge the companies something that reflects the externalities of their choices and make them accommodate and evaluate cradle-to-grave impact of their innovative designs before they can enter the marketplace.
USB-C isn’t the perfect dream world of device interfaces, and Apple’s approach of “no ports” experimentation is neither proven, nor an actual solution to the problems the EU is concerned about.
A more reasonable approach that supports innovation, and helps to reduce e-waste, is a multi-part plan:
- Require public disclosure of all technical aspects of physical connectors, whether it is a plug-in port or a magnetic/induction or wireless interface. Require licensing on an FRAND basis, but only for a very limited time period, say 5 years. This gets rid of the lock-in, but helps finance adoption, testing, etc., and also creates public disclosure to support right-to-repair, etc.
- Mandate which types of physical connectors must be supported by different device categories for all EU and member state purchasing regimes, which types of connectors will be provided for in public accommodations, etc., and create strict processes for any granted exceptions. This will help subsidize consolidation, penalize the experience of products that choose to not comply, etc., but it still allows for innovation and change without actually specifying product design choices.
- Lastly, require companies that sell electronics to pay into an e-waste fund on a per-unit manufactured basis. Charge the companies something that reflects the externalities of their choices and make them accommodate and evaluate cradle-to-grave impact of their innovative designs before they can enter the marketplace.
USB-C isn’t the perfect dream world of device interfaces, and Apple’s approach of “no ports” experimentation is neither proven, nor an actual solution to the problems the EU is concerned about.
it makes a lot of sense. so many (most?) devices already implement it without problems. Phones are not a novel thing anymore, the format of the connector doesnt seem to change a lot in size from mini/micro-usb to lightning to usb-c. It's reasonable to standardize the charging pins now and let future iterations improvise over it. Apple is singularly a source of waste here, which is disproportional given their minor market share in europe. What you re proposing would require a new generation of e-waste, while usbc is already here and working
Exactly this, solve the problem without creating a new one.
But it means the regulators will have to do their job rather than claim some pyrrhic victory over Apple. It was 9 years ago when Apple switched from the 30 pin connector to the Lightning connector. There was an uproar. I recall Apple promising they would keep Lightning for at least 10 years. Guess what? Next year is the 10 year mark.
Meanwhile, what has changed in the market? Lightning inspired USB-C. Apple has adopted USB-C on their MacBook and iPad devices. Guess what next year's iPhone, released on the 10th anniversary of adopting Lightning, is likely to have? A USB-C port.
This is really much ado over nothing. The regulators haven't actually done anything but they'll pawn it off that they took the fight to Apple and won. This is what passes for leadership these days.
Meanwhile, what has changed in the market? Lightning inspired USB-C. Apple has adopted USB-C on their MacBook and iPad devices. Guess what next year's iPhone, released on the 10th anniversary of adopting Lightning, is likely to have? A USB-C port.
This is really much ado over nothing. The regulators haven't actually done anything but they'll pawn it off that they took the fight to Apple and won. This is what passes for leadership these days.
Now if only USB connectors were actually as durable as the lightning plug. MicroUSB was/is a disaster with regards to durability, and USB C has so far not done much to convince me.
My 10 year old lightning cable next to my bed still charges my phone every night. it has seen 3000+ plug in/out cycles, and still works as well as when it was new.
Any phone i've had plugged in has never had any issues with loose connectors.
My work HP laptop on the other hand has a USB C plug for charging/display/etc, and despite being less than a year old, it already has the dreaded "wobble" in the USB C connector.
My 10 year old lightning cable next to my bed still charges my phone every night. it has seen 3000+ plug in/out cycles, and still works as well as when it was new.
Any phone i've had plugged in has never had any issues with loose connectors.
My work HP laptop on the other hand has a USB C plug for charging/display/etc, and despite being less than a year old, it already has the dreaded "wobble" in the USB C connector.
This exactly. The lightning port is superior. I was sad to see the old magsafe connector go away when they adopted USB C on laptops and I'll be really sad to lose the lightning connector.
The USB C connector is a marginal improvement over micro-usb but that's about all.
The USB C connector is a marginal improvement over micro-usb but that's about all.
You mention a 10 year old (!) Lightning connector. How is the charring/arcing on the contact pads?
It had some charring on the 3rd pin a few years ago, but since all the connectors are actually visible, I simply cleaned it with a rough piece of cloth, and it’s back to normal.
All USB plugs have their connectors on the inside, making it impossible to clean them.
All USB plugs have their connectors on the inside, making it impossible to clean them.