Ask HN: I don't want to do this depression cycle anymore
14 comments
First off, you are not alone. I know that probably seems glib. I’ve been through depression multiple times and somehow the only people who have gotten through to me are those who have been through it. It’s not that others don’t try to help, it’s just that only certain messages seem to click. (I found reading “The Recovery Letters” to be a life preserver.)
Do you have benefits with your job? There may be short-term disability benefits you can use for a couple months while you heal. It sounds like you just need rest — not necessarily institutionalization or sleep, rather time away from work to let you do healthy things like reconnecting with nature, exercising, frequent trips for therapy (weekly vs. monthly), etc.
Also, please remember mental health matters fall under ADA (which accounts for mental health among temporary or permanent disabilities) and Family Medical Leave (which would be unpaid unless your state requires the employer to accommodate paid leave). These are federal laws which protect you; your employer must provide reasonable accommodate or permit leave for a health condition without penalty. Talk to your doctor about this; he/she would likely provide documentation which your company would have to comply with. Then, maybe, you will feel more at ease about approaching work?
In the short term, if you need access to therapy but cannot find someone to talk to, ask about your company’s EAP which may be able to get you access to a therapist/counselor more quickly than if you investigated private practices on your own.
I really hope you are able to find a solution which helps you heal. They are out there. Don’t give up hope. Keep trying to find the one that works for you. Be patient and kind to yourself in the meantime.
Do you have benefits with your job? There may be short-term disability benefits you can use for a couple months while you heal. It sounds like you just need rest — not necessarily institutionalization or sleep, rather time away from work to let you do healthy things like reconnecting with nature, exercising, frequent trips for therapy (weekly vs. monthly), etc.
Also, please remember mental health matters fall under ADA (which accounts for mental health among temporary or permanent disabilities) and Family Medical Leave (which would be unpaid unless your state requires the employer to accommodate paid leave). These are federal laws which protect you; your employer must provide reasonable accommodate or permit leave for a health condition without penalty. Talk to your doctor about this; he/she would likely provide documentation which your company would have to comply with. Then, maybe, you will feel more at ease about approaching work?
In the short term, if you need access to therapy but cannot find someone to talk to, ask about your company’s EAP which may be able to get you access to a therapist/counselor more quickly than if you investigated private practices on your own.
I really hope you are able to find a solution which helps you heal. They are out there. Don’t give up hope. Keep trying to find the one that works for you. Be patient and kind to yourself in the meantime.
Bipolar maybe (old name was manic-depressive)? Check some youtube videos and consult a specialist, sounds typical. Disclaimer: Not a psyschiatrist.
IANAD, but I am bipolar 1. OP's story sounds like textbook bipolar 2 disorder.
I'm not sure what kind of medications they're on, but normal antidepressants typically don't work for folks with these kinds of mood disorders.
OP, I'd recommend that you talk to your doctor about this. In my experience, psychiatry is a lot of trial and error. It's possible for you to suffer for years until one day, you find a diagnosis that describes your experience, and you start treatment.
Whether or not you want to adopt another label from the DSM, there are great support groups out there to help people going through moods issues [1] [2]. Does anyone know about any tech oriented communities?
[1] https://www.dbsalliance.org/ [2] https://www.nami.org/Home
I'm not sure what kind of medications they're on, but normal antidepressants typically don't work for folks with these kinds of mood disorders.
OP, I'd recommend that you talk to your doctor about this. In my experience, psychiatry is a lot of trial and error. It's possible for you to suffer for years until one day, you find a diagnosis that describes your experience, and you start treatment.
Whether or not you want to adopt another label from the DSM, there are great support groups out there to help people going through moods issues [1] [2]. Does anyone know about any tech oriented communities?
[1] https://www.dbsalliance.org/ [2] https://www.nami.org/Home
Read up on borderline personality disorder. This vicious cycle sounds like a hallmark of BPD -- excitement/interesting -> boredom -> Emptiness -> depression/hell.
Yes, I think that in order to avoid this vicious cycle it's important to establish some good structure in life to avoid said ups and downs.
Limit the amount of work you do, work with clear and simple short-term objectives. Avoid dopamine feeds like refreshing HN or social networks. That hacks your reward pathways and makes you much more prone to BPD if you are already susceptible.
Sleep at very strict schedules. Waking up very early is a great antidepressant, especially if you go out to get some sun first thing in the morning. Besides, exercise in the nature regularly.
Lastly, many gut bacteria are known to produce nasty metabolites that have a direct influence on neural pathways. There's a lot of research lately in Nature & Science about the gut-brain axis. Making sure you have a good supply of short-chain fatty acids and real food is a decent starting point to avoid this.
Limit the amount of work you do, work with clear and simple short-term objectives. Avoid dopamine feeds like refreshing HN or social networks. That hacks your reward pathways and makes you much more prone to BPD if you are already susceptible.
Sleep at very strict schedules. Waking up very early is a great antidepressant, especially if you go out to get some sun first thing in the morning. Besides, exercise in the nature regularly.
Lastly, many gut bacteria are known to produce nasty metabolites that have a direct influence on neural pathways. There's a lot of research lately in Nature & Science about the gut-brain axis. Making sure you have a good supply of short-chain fatty acids and real food is a decent starting point to avoid this.
Or bi-polar disorder.
Regardless, ifend (probably), and definitely myself are not psychologists. Please go see a psychologist. This is not a "drugs will make everything better" but more like you should talk to a professional. Maybe this is all a life perspective thing, maybe it's past trauma, whatever.
They can help. And if you hate them...then you probably have BPD :)
Regardless, ifend (probably), and definitely myself are not psychologists. Please go see a psychologist. This is not a "drugs will make everything better" but more like you should talk to a professional. Maybe this is all a life perspective thing, maybe it's past trauma, whatever.
They can help. And if you hate them...then you probably have BPD :)
Get yourself a dog and regularly take walks, particularly through greenery (parks perhaps).
https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/finding-new-home/201...
Magnesium may help. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16542786/
Magnesium may help. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16542786/
+ 1 for dog - man's best friend :))
I hear you, and I go through the same cycle myself, albeit seemingly not quite as extreme from your explanations. It still sucks.
I spread myself too thin. I noticed you essentially said “I do well at work, then do well at personal projects, then I’m burnt out.”
Have you tried cutting out the side projects and just minimizing your self expectations of output, temporarily even?
Usually when I find myself in this vicious cycle, it is because I have spread myself too thin, and I’m feeling stressed to perform well with everything I have my hand in. I’ve learned that, if I allow myself to fall into that hole, that I end up outputting less than I would if I just took the extra X months or whatever and didn’t trying to cram everything into the same window of time.
After being a startup founder for 3 years and incurring quite a mental and financial toll, I decided to become a salaried worker again and let everything else fall to the side for the next X years.
Sure, I’m not on the track of founding my own business right now. But you know what, that’s ok, I’m really enjoying life and the journey along the way!
Again, there is probably more specifics and situational details to your predicament, but I hope this may give you some more food for thought. Best wishes to you my friend.
I spread myself too thin. I noticed you essentially said “I do well at work, then do well at personal projects, then I’m burnt out.”
Have you tried cutting out the side projects and just minimizing your self expectations of output, temporarily even?
Usually when I find myself in this vicious cycle, it is because I have spread myself too thin, and I’m feeling stressed to perform well with everything I have my hand in. I’ve learned that, if I allow myself to fall into that hole, that I end up outputting less than I would if I just took the extra X months or whatever and didn’t trying to cram everything into the same window of time.
After being a startup founder for 3 years and incurring quite a mental and financial toll, I decided to become a salaried worker again and let everything else fall to the side for the next X years.
Sure, I’m not on the track of founding my own business right now. But you know what, that’s ok, I’m really enjoying life and the journey along the way!
Again, there is probably more specifics and situational details to your predicament, but I hope this may give you some more food for thought. Best wishes to you my friend.
I'm sorry you're struggling. There's a process that has worked for me and might work for you, but it takes some patience and effort. Would you be willing to try an experiment that requires 30-45 minutes every day for, say, a month, just to see if it works? If so, the process is described in a free book called "The Path to Nibbana" by David Johnson.
It may seem religious, and that might turn you off, but if you prefer, it makes perfect sense to think of the process as just a psychological training technique, something like CBT.
What I've found is that my basic happiness level (not dependent on any life circumstances) keeps increasing. The vicissitudes of life keep bothering me less and less. My mind is full of kindness, to myself and everyone. This kindness makes it easier and easier to genuinely love life. Whatever you do, I hope you feel better.
It may seem religious, and that might turn you off, but if you prefer, it makes perfect sense to think of the process as just a psychological training technique, something like CBT.
What I've found is that my basic happiness level (not dependent on any life circumstances) keeps increasing. The vicissitudes of life keep bothering me less and less. My mind is full of kindness, to myself and everyone. This kindness makes it easier and easier to genuinely love life. Whatever you do, I hope you feel better.
> I started a new job towards the end of 2020. It's in a part of software engineering that I love. I'm very lucky to be able to work with incredibly smart people, and improve myself and my skills. But I'm not happy.
Work doesn't contribute that much towards the feeling of happiness. You also need good and honest relations with other people (preferably outside work), play, laughter, being outside, good food, sex and intimacy, sense of belonging etc. Most people who are very focused at work at the exclusion of other things are simply never happy, they just learn to how to deal with being miserable all the time.
Work doesn't contribute that much towards the feeling of happiness. You also need good and honest relations with other people (preferably outside work), play, laughter, being outside, good food, sex and intimacy, sense of belonging etc. Most people who are very focused at work at the exclusion of other things are simply never happy, they just learn to how to deal with being miserable all the time.
Sorry you feel this way, if you want someone to talk to over text/call you can send me an email (in profile). No expectations/shame/whatever. Sometimes it helps just to vent and talk it through with someone (from personal experience)
One element being a soft eng that I struggle with is the extended periods of physical inactivity ('productivity'), which also lead to poor diet choices. Initially addressing these makes things worse but it's a commitment worth making, one I'm on the wrong side of at the minute and desperately need to resolve. I'm unsure if it'll help you, but I suppose it's worth reading my experience just in case!
Stop pitying yourself and go for a nice bike ride or a run. Take a little melatonin and go to bed at 930. Take a shroom microdose and go for a walk. Have a coffee. Meditate. Change your scenery.
Do all of these simple things and you’ll feel fresh. You’re caught too deep in your fake perceptions of your life and the world.
Do all of these simple things and you’ll feel fresh. You’re caught too deep in your fake perceptions of your life and the world.
I know you think you are helping but you are not. There is nothing worse than someone, who has no understanding of anothers mental health issues, just telling them to 'shake it off' or 'get over it'.
One day maybe, you'll find find yourself suicidal and then you'll understand it's not something you can just get over by 'going for a walk'.
One day maybe, you'll find find yourself suicidal and then you'll understand it's not something you can just get over by 'going for a walk'.
Melatonin has contraindications with many psychiatric drugs, due to it being a serotonin precursor. Hallucinogens can also trigger people with mental health issues into mental breakdowns or crisis. I think sleeping well and biking is great advice, but be careful when recommending drug usage to people already on psychiatric drugs, or just in general.
Not a magic cure, but get on a bike and ride it. Fresh air, a little exercise to increase your heart rate and get your blood pumping. If you were down here in Sydney I'd say come past and we'll go for any easy cruise around the suburbs.
A long walk helps but I find I bored with the more slowly changing scenery.
i recently listened to the bruce springsteen audiobook, 'born to run' -- it was great.
he talks a lot about his depression and how he finally got out of his deep rut, after 40 years of on/off again depression, sometimes severe
said he 'had it all' and still almost 'ended it all', so he totally gets it
i've never had it that bad, but i get it too, as much as anyone can who hasn't faced it directly
think he ended up just trying some particular drug mix that fixed him -- or, fixed him enough
so i do think there can be rewards to sticking it out as much as possible
and continuing to read about anyone who has ever talked about 'the black dog', like winston churchill.
i do wonder about the lifestyle stuff, tho
i always think back to that bored rat vs. playpen rat and water vs. cocaine experiment
if you are already getting at least 15 min of high intensity exercise (even a stationary bike, or the 'force fitmill sunny $400' --> recommend)
and you're eating right-ish
then those are both great
but i also wonder what, if anything, changing your job might do.
even if you try to switch to a 4-day/32-hour work week to start
take the salary cut if you need to
then look for other, more people-centric work? or physical labor-oriented?
or even start picking up small IT projects on Upwork or by pinging local businesses, etc.? to mix it up?
maybe try to change roles even within the same company? flip to qa, tech support, pre-sales, etc.? or a diff company?
just some ideas.
...one thing i heard back in the day, not sure i ever followed it myself - think i tried once - something like, "Do more of the things you like to do, and less of the things you don't like to do." seems reasonable.
he talks a lot about his depression and how he finally got out of his deep rut, after 40 years of on/off again depression, sometimes severe
said he 'had it all' and still almost 'ended it all', so he totally gets it
i've never had it that bad, but i get it too, as much as anyone can who hasn't faced it directly
think he ended up just trying some particular drug mix that fixed him -- or, fixed him enough
so i do think there can be rewards to sticking it out as much as possible
and continuing to read about anyone who has ever talked about 'the black dog', like winston churchill.
i do wonder about the lifestyle stuff, tho
i always think back to that bored rat vs. playpen rat and water vs. cocaine experiment
if you are already getting at least 15 min of high intensity exercise (even a stationary bike, or the 'force fitmill sunny $400' --> recommend)
and you're eating right-ish
then those are both great
but i also wonder what, if anything, changing your job might do.
even if you try to switch to a 4-day/32-hour work week to start
take the salary cut if you need to
then look for other, more people-centric work? or physical labor-oriented?
or even start picking up small IT projects on Upwork or by pinging local businesses, etc.? to mix it up?
maybe try to change roles even within the same company? flip to qa, tech support, pre-sales, etc.? or a diff company?
just some ideas.
...one thing i heard back in the day, not sure i ever followed it myself - think i tried once - something like, "Do more of the things you like to do, and less of the things you don't like to do." seems reasonable.
Get a rucksack. Put 30 kg of stones in the bag. Put your alarm on Monday that you have to start squatting for a half hour. Wednesday & Friday another 30 min Balboa set and you will be 2x.
I strongly suggest doing some research on psilocybin therapy. There seems to be a lot of promise in helping treatment-resistant depression.
Links? I’ve found psilocybin to be useful after the depressive period. I have never taken mushrooms during that time, and watching others in a bad mental state has cemented the avoidance.
I’m also not taking therapeutic doses but rather recreational so that may have a part to play
I’m also not taking therapeutic doses but rather recreational so that may have a part to play
I'm not sure why I'm being downvoted without replies. Here are the studies.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=psilocybin+and+depress...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=psilocybin+and+depress...
I've noticed that I go through a cycle of being hyperproductive, being able to hammer out high-quality things at work, and then turning around and doing the same in personal projects, only to "crash" months later into suicidal depression, where it feels like the antidepressants and other psych meds are doing nothing. When I'm "up" I love my personal and professional work, I can easily spend weeks hammering out code non-stop, and so on. But when I'm "down," I can barely get out of bed before noon.
At this point, I'm stuck really far down inside of the suicidal-depresson stage, and I don't know how to pull myself out. Since I'm in America, I can't just go get committed for a while, because I've done that it before and it was one of the most traumatic things I've ever gone through. I plan to call my doctor ASAP to get my meds adjusted and see if I can make any other changes to improve things. But it all feels so hopeless.
I feel incredibly guilty, because this is affecting my output at work. I can't keep staying in bed hopelessly until past noon, and I need the job to be able to keep myself and my partner afloat. I have some savings, but not enough to take a year to myself. I don't know how it'll go over if I ask for a month or so off at work, so I'm hesitant to ask.
What do I do? How do I help myself?