AMD Expected to Become TSMC's Second Largest Customer(tomshardware.com)
tomshardware.com
AMD Expected to Become TSMC's Second Largest Customer
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-tsmc-second-largest-customer
8 comments
> Will everyone just have to switch to TSMC?
Did you read the article ? AMD is going up as a % because a lot of customers are switching to Samsung (and Huawei sanctions)
Did you read the article ? AMD is going up as a % because a lot of customers are switching to Samsung (and Huawei sanctions)
The fact that AMD had the best-performing CPU by a 2x factor for the past 4 years probably plays a role too.
That seems at least a bit hyperbolic - AMD has pushed intel a lot in the past four years but it wasn't until the past year or so that they have potentially started outperforming Intel (depending on workload) in what is likely to be a 'who has released more recently' kind of competition for a while.
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/cpu-hierarchy,4312.html
Latest benches have AMD and Intel winning in about the same number of tests.
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/cpu-hierarchy,4312.html
Latest benches have AMD and Intel winning in about the same number of tests.
The first graph in this article doesn't include Ryzen 5000 series processors.
By their own tests later AMD has top 4 positions for both single-threaded and multi-threaded workloads. Intel came out with their Rocket lake line of CPUs after Ryzen 5000 and Rocket lake can't match up.
Even before Ryzen 5000, anything that wasn't single-threaded Intel could never beat; and had way worse performance per watt.
By their own tests later AMD has top 4 positions for both single-threaded and multi-threaded workloads. Intel came out with their Rocket lake line of CPUs after Ryzen 5000 and Rocket lake can't match up.
Even before Ryzen 5000, anything that wasn't single-threaded Intel could never beat; and had way worse performance per watt.
Weird, it definitely includes them for me, in all six images and it's exactly like the parent said (some Intel, some AMD).
Maybe you are confused because Threadripper is at the top in some above the 5000 series?
AMD is killing it with the 5000 series, but it's just barely edging out Intel in these benchmarks. The whole 2x figure was a little absurd.
Maybe you are confused because Threadripper is at the top in some above the 5000 series?
AMD is killing it with the 5000 series, but it's just barely edging out Intel in these benchmarks. The whole 2x figure was a little absurd.
It’s been true before that the losing architecture can juice their numbers by making big hot chips that use tons of power. Intel is so far behind that this is strategy is hard to continue. They can keep in the conversation by giving you more cores for less dollars, but those are dire straits for the company.
Its hard to continue but they have just posted great financials so only need to scrape through to 10 or 7 nm then they will probably go back to stomping AMD. AMD's documentation is poor, software is poor, marketing is also not great (My next computer will be an AMD but I wouldn't bet on them having a run anything like Intel's over the last decade)
AMD most definitely started outperforming Intel in performance per dollar in the last year forcing Intel to implement huge price cuts to remain competitive.
The original Zen architecture released in 2017 was not the best performing CPU on the market by any metric. It wasn't until Zen 2 and Zen 3 that AMD fully caught up.
If $/perf on multithreaded workloads is your metric then it did beat Intel from what I remember.
I believe it took until Zen 2 for the AMD high end to beat the Intel high end in multithreaded perf, and until Zen 3 for AMD to take the single threaded perf crown across the board too.
I believe it took until Zen 2 for the AMD high end to beat the Intel high end in multithreaded perf, and until Zen 3 for AMD to take the single threaded perf crown across the board too.
It occurs to me now that AMD probably would have taken the multithreaded crown from Intel with Zen 1 if Intel hadn't upped their (consumer socket) high end from 4 to 6 cores in the same year.
Although it's hard to say whether that was a direct response to the threat from AMD or not.
Although it's hard to say whether that was a direct response to the threat from AMD or not.
Doesn't that correspond to the globalfoundries contracts?
I’m out of the loop. How does Huawei (PRC) sanctions end up negatively affecting TSMC (ROC) sales?
TSMC's second largest customer _was_ Huawei. The US sanctions led to TSMC no longer selling to Huawaei.
Huawei end up having to use SMIC, so less business for TSMC.
SMIC barelly can do 28nm chips, so Huawei is actually out of consumer mobile business for quite a while. No one that counts will produce chips for them, no one will sell the technology. With SMIC they gonna have to expand a line of products demanding less computation power in order to survive.
28nm is perfectly fine for networking gear, which is arguably still a bigger business for Huawei.
>how long will it be before Intel is forced to use them for all their performance chips?
One year? https://www.trendforce.com/presscenter/news/20210113-10651.h...
One year? https://www.trendforce.com/presscenter/news/20210113-10651.h...
New Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger To Host Webcast [1] About Intel’s Future On March 23rd. We will see if we have more details then. But Pat seems to be committed to the IDM model.
>for TSMC to get sloppy like Intel did, and everything stagnate again.
I dont see that happening any time soon. Not in this decade. Not with the current and upcoming management of TSMC. Even assuming the worst of a culture change within TSMC it will still take time to rotten to its core and time for it to manifest. Intel loses out has nothing to do with technology, but the combination of pathetic management and record making profits at the same time for years.
[1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/16560/intel-ceo-pat-gelsinger...
>for TSMC to get sloppy like Intel did, and everything stagnate again.
I dont see that happening any time soon. Not in this decade. Not with the current and upcoming management of TSMC. Even assuming the worst of a culture change within TSMC it will still take time to rotten to its core and time for it to manifest. Intel loses out has nothing to do with technology, but the combination of pathetic management and record making profits at the same time for years.
[1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/16560/intel-ceo-pat-gelsinger...
TSMC will probably have a second largest customer even if their process development stagnates.
The sloppyness isn't an issue. Lack of competition that can keep up is. Especially in a geopolitically charged environment.
AMD's success is great for the industry.
x86 and GPU competition is much needed with complete dominance from Intel and Nvidia.
x86 and GPU competition is much needed with complete dominance from Intel and Nvidia.
Why we can't build chip factories in the west ? It seems we are bound to have our capacity limited by a few factories that can build all electronics we need. Nobody see the lack of availability of chips around ? I guess Asia is indeed the new axis of world power.
We have lots and lots of chip factories in the West. A very important one just lost thousands and thousands of wafers because the Texas power grid went tits up, and it set the companies using it back by months. There's foundries being built all over the world. TSMC just happens to be the first to have an extremely expensive, extremely difficult process down to a reliable production setup, so all the orders that absolutely have to be on that process are going to them. They also happen to employ most of the world's expertise in leading-edge lithography tech. But if you look beyond the absolute pinnacle of production processes, and into the >100nm range, there are literally hundreds of foundries around the world, many of them in the US and Germany for example, churning out what was top-of-the-line a decade ago.
US and Germany specifically even have what was leading edge just a few years ago. AMD's Zen 1 was made at a GloFo fab in New York.
Asia has been the primary axis for semiconductors since the mid-1990s when Silicon Valley ceased to be about any silicon. That's when the entire industrial ebbed out of the USA.
Were you not paying attention as all the jobs were lost?? Did you not notice the changes?
It used to be that 90% of all semiconductor companies were based in Silicon Valley, hence the same. Driving around the Valley was a near-religious experience as you saw EVERY company name you ever heard of and there was their building.
That no longer exists. And even social media companies are remotely as plentiful today. There's no comparison.
The only hope now is:
* TSMC is building a fab in Phoenix * Samsung is building a fab in one of three areas: Phoenix, Austin or Malta - they haven't decided yet * GF is building another fab in Malta
NONE of this will EVER be in California ever again let alone Silicon Valley, however. It's no longer economically viable there.
Were you not paying attention as all the jobs were lost?? Did you not notice the changes?
It used to be that 90% of all semiconductor companies were based in Silicon Valley, hence the same. Driving around the Valley was a near-religious experience as you saw EVERY company name you ever heard of and there was their building.
That no longer exists. And even social media companies are remotely as plentiful today. There's no comparison.
The only hope now is:
* TSMC is building a fab in Phoenix * Samsung is building a fab in one of three areas: Phoenix, Austin or Malta - they haven't decided yet * GF is building another fab in Malta
NONE of this will EVER be in California ever again let alone Silicon Valley, however. It's no longer economically viable there.
Samsung already said Austin, not far from their other fab in Austin: https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/3/22311825/samsung-texas-aus...
Yep. When I was growing up I lived across the street from a superfund site in San Jose. And there's still an active superfund site in the middle of Palo Alto.
> Why we can't build chip factories in the west ?
We have tons of them. TSMC is just extremely prominent right now because Intel stumbled on their 10nm upgrade and is stuck a generation behind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_si...
Intel foundries are also less prominent because they don't sell capacity to others... AMD, Apple, Samsung, etc., would never have their processors created at an Intel fab. TSMC is neutral.
GlobalFoundries (formerly AMD) balked at the expense of getting 7nm fabrication going only to have to compete (on price) with TSMC and decided to stay at 12 nm (and larger) for a couple years. But sooner or later they will have to move forward, and perhaps find themselves ahead of TSMC for a while.
We have tons of them. TSMC is just extremely prominent right now because Intel stumbled on their 10nm upgrade and is stuck a generation behind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_si...
Intel foundries are also less prominent because they don't sell capacity to others... AMD, Apple, Samsung, etc., would never have their processors created at an Intel fab. TSMC is neutral.
GlobalFoundries (formerly AMD) balked at the expense of getting 7nm fabrication going only to have to compete (on price) with TSMC and decided to stay at 12 nm (and larger) for a couple years. But sooner or later they will have to move forward, and perhaps find themselves ahead of TSMC for a while.
Semiconductor manufacturing is pretty dirty. Lots of toxic chemicals.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-06-15/american-...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-06-15/american-...
We can and do make chip fabs in the US. Intel choose a different process for its 10nm than TSMC 7nm. It hasn’t worked and instead of switching to a similar process the other foundries use they doubled down repeatedly. It’s the perfect example of sunk cost fallacy.
>We can and do make chip fabs in the US.
But just barely, and not state of the art...
But just barely, and not state of the art...
There is one planned to be built in US https://www.anandtech.com/show/15803/tsmc-build-5nm-fab-in-a...
Also GloFo has fabs "in the west" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlobalFoundries#Fabrication_fa...
Also GloFo has fabs "in the west" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlobalFoundries#Fabrication_fa...
GloFo has more or less given up on cutting edge node design, if I recall.
Fortunately EU is finally putting money on the table :
"EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology " https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25602950
"EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology " https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25602950
This is tax payer money that people had to forcibly part with to use to fund private businesses that will not share their profits with those people. Is that correct?
Why people cannot directly buy shares in European semiconductor companies and then profit like other shareholders do, but it has to go through bureaucratic channels (and bureaucrats also take their cut for facilitating this bureaucracy)?
> Why people cannot directly buy shares in European semiconductor companies
Because this way the companies can be directed towards a specific desired outcome that benefits society instead of the shareholders.
Because this way the companies can be directed towards a specific desired outcome that benefits society instead of the shareholders.
Historically, Silicon Valley was created from government contracts and subsidies.
Because the European innovation ecosystem is terribly broken and our politicians think regulation is the solution to all problems.
The problem are high taxes (for employees) which means it is expensive to retain talent plus mountains of bureaucracy and more taxes.
You’re saying that China doesn’t have bureaucracy or taxes? Their income tax seems to go up to 45% so it seems unlikely that nobody else in the world can match it. South Korea is 42%, so how does Samsung manage?
In China at least, you make sure you have the right party members on your board and all that pesky paperwork and taxes mostly disappears. Not sure about Korea.
West was or even is sleeping on Asia
Ask average IT person about big IT companies and nobody says anything about Asia, which is scary as fuck.
Ask average IT person about big IT companies and nobody says anything about Asia, which is scary as fuck.
Missing the word "leading Edge" in the first sentence.
And it wasn't long ago US had GF and Intel.
And it wasn't long ago US had GF and Intel.
We can, TSMC opening a fab in arizona and Samsung opening a fab in Austin.
75% of Intel's production in US based, no?
Some. Not that much as in the 1980s. Notice that most of the floorspace is Arizona, Oregon or overseas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_si...
Back in the day I worked at Fab 2 but that's ancient history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_si...
Back in the day I worked at Fab 2 but that's ancient history.
Interesting that their current 3DXPoint/3DNand fab is in China and a 10nm fab is in Israel.
The US just gives away secrets now?
The US just gives away secrets now?
Intel is a private, global company, not a US secret.
And SMIC is just another competitor. Right?
Huh, I'm surprised this wasn't the case already. Apparently HiSilicon was the second largest before.
Guess I underestimated how much mobile chips there are, and overestimated how many Zen 2/3 chiplets + GPUs + consoles there are.
Guess I underestimated how much mobile chips there are, and overestimated how many Zen 2/3 chiplets + GPUs + consoles there are.
Apple and Huawei were typically TSMC’s biggest customers and both those companies have been on the bleeding edge driving process technology (typically adopting the new node 1 year before everyone else). With the Huawei ban, it’s unclear if their absence as a TSMC customer will affect 3nm.
I don’t see AMD having a broad enough portfolio or deep enough pockets to chase the leading edge nodes in the same as Apple and Huawei.
I don’t see AMD having a broad enough portfolio or deep enough pockets to chase the leading edge nodes in the same as Apple and Huawei.
[deleted]
Interesting fight between TSMC and Samsung as foundry of choice for semiconductors.
Global Foundries have skipped a step.
Global Foundries have skipped a step.
TLDR: AMD is becoming a bigger customer to TSMC because others are rightly hedging their bets with manufacturing at Samsung.
AMD is (rumored to be) as well https://www.gizmochina.com/2021/02/02/amd-outsource-gpu-apu-...
And if that happens, how long will it be, with much less competition, for TSMC to get sloppy like Intel did, and everything stagnate again.