Ask HN: How to talk to my parents and older family members about fake news?
7 comments
I don’t have a great solution.
However, IMO people address fake news the wrong way: they focus too much on intellectual content and not emotional reasons people have their beliefs.
People like fake news because they want to believe it. It confirms an underpinning assumption, threat, emotion they feel. It’s more productive IMO to understand how people feel about something. A simple example is desperately wanting to go back to “normal” during Covid, or feeling their status or livelihood under threat (working class in the US and elsewhere)
People reach for scapegoats and facts to fit the narrative they have. They have a strong feeling or grievance, and desperately want it validated.
If the goal is to influence someone’s beliefs, when we fact check them, we can be seen as invalidating their underlying emotion or feelings.
Instead it seems more productive to get the underlying issue out in the light of day and put less shame around it.
As a society and individuals I have no idea how we do that. But I just know fact checking people often has the opposite effect and just makes people madder.
However, IMO people address fake news the wrong way: they focus too much on intellectual content and not emotional reasons people have their beliefs.
People like fake news because they want to believe it. It confirms an underpinning assumption, threat, emotion they feel. It’s more productive IMO to understand how people feel about something. A simple example is desperately wanting to go back to “normal” during Covid, or feeling their status or livelihood under threat (working class in the US and elsewhere)
People reach for scapegoats and facts to fit the narrative they have. They have a strong feeling or grievance, and desperately want it validated.
If the goal is to influence someone’s beliefs, when we fact check them, we can be seen as invalidating their underlying emotion or feelings.
Instead it seems more productive to get the underlying issue out in the light of day and put less shame around it.
As a society and individuals I have no idea how we do that. But I just know fact checking people often has the opposite effect and just makes people madder.
I have the exactly same issue with my mom.
I've been trying to avoid to discuss the facts (f.e. about hydroxychloroquine) itself (unlike my siblings), but instead elucidate that spreading misinformation is way easily than before. The important thing is that she doesn't see me as "the other side".
What (I think) worked for me was showing fake news about flat earth 'theory' and compare with what she was reading/sharing.
I've been trying to avoid to discuss the facts (f.e. about hydroxychloroquine) itself (unlike my siblings), but instead elucidate that spreading misinformation is way easily than before. The important thing is that she doesn't see me as "the other side".
What (I think) worked for me was showing fake news about flat earth 'theory' and compare with what she was reading/sharing.
Ask them if it makes them happier, their days better if they spend time on these things. Tell them you don't, and you don't want them to be unhappy and stressed.
I live in the USA, I DEFINITELY have this problem. Unfortunately I have no advice :(
First a disclaimer: I think combating dis/misinformation has been a Herculean task in the last two years. I am not an expert on this by any means, and the scope and social context of Brazil need to be taken into consideration. As I'm not from Brazil, I cannot help you with this.
With that out of the way, the best book I read regarding conflict and resolution has been "Conscious Business" by Fred Kofman. While his strategies relate largely to the business world, they are applicable in a very general sense. I bring this up because these strategies will help you in framing and explaining why this matters to you.
The main takeaway from the book is that you need to approach these problems from a place of infinite empathy. Remember, your final goal is not to "win the conversation" or have the last word, it's to come to an agreement of shared values and collectively (that means, you and your parents) build a strategy in combating the underlying problem.
To build that strategy, I recommend taking a page out of the Less Wrong sequences, and _Hold Off On Proposing Solutions_ [1]. Somewhat ironic given what I am currently doing, so I suppose I have already failed. Anyways, on this note, recall I said that the goal was an "agreement of shared values." Start here. Begin by listing your values and frame these in the context of the conversation.
As for the exact solution, it may very well be a matter of how you form beliefs vs. how your parents form beliefs. Being able to describe your epistemology and how it differs from their own is a valuable tool. However, it can often be difficult to carry a heavy conversation for long enough to get to the root of this. I point back at Fred Kofman, and having a well of infinite empathy. You have to be willing to commit a lot of time.
And to that last point (committing a lot of time), there are some stories out there of people being converted both to and from dis/misinformation. I've been thinking about this quite a bit over the last couple years. Fortunately, there are people who are better at this than I am. Jane Lytvynenko [2] is a wonderful disinformation reporter, and she puts out a lot of resources for how to spot fake news, how to look at evidence critically, how to critically examine online content, etc. She doesn't quite get to using Bayes' theorem, but dismissing fake news and contrived stories doesn't often rise to the level of needing Bayesian reasoning (although it does help!).
With that said, I'm sorry that you're encountering this with your parents. While few have commented, I think more than a fair share of people are running into this issue more and more. The most important part is the empathy, and remembering your goal. After that, the best you can hope for is enough time and energy to help drive the point.
[1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/uHYYA32CKgKT3FagE/hold-off-o... [2] https://twitter.com/JaneLytv
With that out of the way, the best book I read regarding conflict and resolution has been "Conscious Business" by Fred Kofman. While his strategies relate largely to the business world, they are applicable in a very general sense. I bring this up because these strategies will help you in framing and explaining why this matters to you.
The main takeaway from the book is that you need to approach these problems from a place of infinite empathy. Remember, your final goal is not to "win the conversation" or have the last word, it's to come to an agreement of shared values and collectively (that means, you and your parents) build a strategy in combating the underlying problem.
To build that strategy, I recommend taking a page out of the Less Wrong sequences, and _Hold Off On Proposing Solutions_ [1]. Somewhat ironic given what I am currently doing, so I suppose I have already failed. Anyways, on this note, recall I said that the goal was an "agreement of shared values." Start here. Begin by listing your values and frame these in the context of the conversation.
As for the exact solution, it may very well be a matter of how you form beliefs vs. how your parents form beliefs. Being able to describe your epistemology and how it differs from their own is a valuable tool. However, it can often be difficult to carry a heavy conversation for long enough to get to the root of this. I point back at Fred Kofman, and having a well of infinite empathy. You have to be willing to commit a lot of time.
And to that last point (committing a lot of time), there are some stories out there of people being converted both to and from dis/misinformation. I've been thinking about this quite a bit over the last couple years. Fortunately, there are people who are better at this than I am. Jane Lytvynenko [2] is a wonderful disinformation reporter, and she puts out a lot of resources for how to spot fake news, how to look at evidence critically, how to critically examine online content, etc. She doesn't quite get to using Bayes' theorem, but dismissing fake news and contrived stories doesn't often rise to the level of needing Bayesian reasoning (although it does help!).
With that said, I'm sorry that you're encountering this with your parents. While few have commented, I think more than a fair share of people are running into this issue more and more. The most important part is the empathy, and remembering your goal. After that, the best you can hope for is enough time and energy to help drive the point.
[1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/uHYYA32CKgKT3FagE/hold-off-o... [2] https://twitter.com/JaneLytv
I'll add to this really good post that additionally you may wish to approach this from a 'meta' discussion, less about a particular topic and more about the methods used to evaluate an argument or a presentation of evidence. Perhaps you can agree on methods for assessing evidence as a starting point, and then jointly apply them to a particular issue, once the collaborative atmosphere has been established. FWIW I've had more luck doing this in email rather than in a text client or on twitter. The communication medium has to allow for a longer-form discussion, both to establish common ground, with minimized emotion, and to enable the nuance to be worked through.
Introduce them to snopes?
Even when presented with truth, they will not believe it. Said Nazi propaganda minister. It was true then, it’s true now.
With so much indoctrination by the alternative lueggenpresse, there is no quick fix.
1. Avoid talking about it
2. Pretend to agree and adjust their behavior. Think of them as psychiatric patients
3. Install a firewall. Put a script in the router that drops fake news sites
4. Be busy working or pretend to be busy. Deadlines, cant talk now. Everything will be solved eventually
Fake news is not going away and with the bastardization of media it’s not going to get better. Random schlo mo makes the news now and bots, no qualifications needed.
Lack of critical thinking skills combined with their alternative luegenpresse is a dangerous mix, probably why many states crack down on media.
In the west there’s often claims of “free press”, but why censor only wikileak and not fake news that caused storming of capital hill, riots etc?
Freedom cannot exist without oppression and the media is to free
With so much indoctrination by the alternative lueggenpresse, there is no quick fix.
1. Avoid talking about it
2. Pretend to agree and adjust their behavior. Think of them as psychiatric patients
3. Install a firewall. Put a script in the router that drops fake news sites
4. Be busy working or pretend to be busy. Deadlines, cant talk now. Everything will be solved eventually
Fake news is not going away and with the bastardization of media it’s not going to get better. Random schlo mo makes the news now and bots, no qualifications needed.
Lack of critical thinking skills combined with their alternative luegenpresse is a dangerous mix, probably why many states crack down on media.
In the west there’s often claims of “free press”, but why censor only wikileak and not fake news that caused storming of capital hill, riots etc?
Freedom cannot exist without oppression and the media is to free
I really like this website. This is my favorite place on the internet. I learn a lot from the material and comments people post. Hence, I would like to ask for your help.
Since 2013/2014, my parents and close family members started to use WhatsApp. They have been using the internet for a long time but smart mobile phones and Whatsapp are more of a recent phenomenon.
Their behavior concerning WhatsApp use seems to be a general trend in Brazil regarding people from the Baby Boomer generation [1945-1965]. Unfortunately, there is a lot of fake news being shared on WhatsApp groups.
Currently, it is hard for me to discuss ambiguous and politically sensitive things with them. Actually, everything seems to be more politically sensitive than it used to be 10 years ago which only makes things worse.
My parents and older family members are too naive about the things they receive on WhatsApp. To make things worse, they receive suspicious material from friends and family members who are from the same generation and also tend to be less critical about what is going in their groups.
I have a very good relationship with my parents and we have similar ideological beliefs. However, their behavior and beliefs are becoming more extreme and less reasonable year after year. When I present some official information, e.g. evidence about Hydroxychloroquine, they always have some link or video from an unknown and unreliable source to refute my point and endorse their own.
In the background, the "Journalism Crisis" just makes things worse. They are really suspicious about what the main media says. Paradoxically, they are friendly about what the alternative media on their WhatsApp says.
I do not know how to handle this. Do you guys have pragmatic advice? Do you have similar problems? How do you guys handle it?
I do not want to give up on my parents. I do not want to talk to them only about amenities.