Orson Scott Card's Amazon Review of Ender's Game(amazon.com)
amazon.com
Orson Scott Card's Amazon Review of Ender's Game
http://www.amazon.com/review/R3SKPG9XEJYASE/ref=cm_cr_pr_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0812589041&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=
10 comments
I had the same experience with Watership Down: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watership_Down
I was set to read it when I was 14 or 15 in English. What 14 or 15 yo boy wants to read a book about a rabbit? I was wrong, and loved it, then went and read every other book Richard Adams wrote.
So I guess it's not impossible, but at the same time I was probably broad minded enough to change my mind. Many people won't.
I was set to read it when I was 14 or 15 in English. What 14 or 15 yo boy wants to read a book about a rabbit? I was wrong, and loved it, then went and read every other book Richard Adams wrote.
So I guess it's not impossible, but at the same time I was probably broad minded enough to change my mind. Many people won't.
I don't think the claim is that no book can survive any hostile reading, but that you can always approach a book with enough hostility to ruin it.
That's not how I interpret him. Here's the quotation with more context:
"Of course, those who approached Ender's Game skeptically or because they were 'forced' to read it can hardly imagine their response is valid for those who read it as volunteers or with belief: No book, however good, can survive a hostile reading."
"Of course, those who approached Ender's Game skeptically or because they were 'forced' to read it can hardly imagine their response is valid for those who read it as volunteers or with belief: No book, however good, can survive a hostile reading."
Maybe Card's definition of a hostile reading is different from yours.
I'm understanding the term "hostile reading" as Card defines it in the above quotation. A hostile reader is one who approaches a book skeptically or is forced to read it (in the sense of being required to read it to complete a class). A hostile reading is what he does.
Wait... So if someone reads it voluntarily but skeptically it is somehow a hostile reading by the definition you cite? It seems to me you are selectively ignoring the part where he explicitly declares voluntary reading not hostile.
No, Card does not explicitly declare that in the quotation I posted. (Did you mean elsewhere in his review?) He's saying: It's a hostile reading if it's skeptical rather than "with belief". It's also a hostile reading if it's forced rather than voluntary.
You probe his definition by asking, If someone reads it skeptically but voluntarily, does that count as hostile? That's a good question. I don't think we have enough information to answer it, because Card does not state how to weigh skepticism and forcedness against each other.
You probe his definition by asking, If someone reads it skeptically but voluntarily, does that count as hostile? That's a good question. I don't think we have enough information to answer it, because Card does not state how to weigh skepticism and forcedness against each other.
I was actually a hostile reader the first time I read Ender's Game. I was totally turned off by the horrible cover and not very interested in reading it, but it was assigned for school, so I read it and it became one of my favorite books.
The original Ender's Game series covers are some of the best science fiction art I've ever seen, by an amazing artist named John Harris (examples below). Did your edition have a different cover?
Ender's Game: http://www.igorstshirts.com/blog/conceptships/2009/j_harris_... Speaker for the Dead: http://www.igorstshirts.com/blog/conceptships/2009/j_harris_... Children of the Mind: http://www.igorstshirts.com/blog/conceptships/2009/j_harris_...
More art by John Harris here (not my blog): http://colorcubic.com/2010/09/07/the-science-fiction-art-of-...
Ender's Game: http://www.igorstshirts.com/blog/conceptships/2009/j_harris_... Speaker for the Dead: http://www.igorstshirts.com/blog/conceptships/2009/j_harris_... Children of the Mind: http://www.igorstshirts.com/blog/conceptships/2009/j_harris_...
More art by John Harris here (not my blog): http://colorcubic.com/2010/09/07/the-science-fiction-art-of-...
Unfortunately does nothing to change my view that authors should probably keep away from their own reviews. If he'd had some brilliant new insight that would be one thing, but instead he just comes off as slightly more defensive than anyone who has sold tens of millions of books should.
I guess it was 1999 when this was written, though, so the norms for online reviews had not yet been established.
I guess it was 1999 when this was written, though, so the norms for online reviews had not yet been established.
Keep in mind also that Orson has written several books for writers and does a ton of workshops etc. For sci-fi he's a pretty prolific (and good imo) writing teacher. In his response he was specifically targeting literary concepts that he teaches and has written about while trying to dilute some of the ad-homonim attacks that were apparently exploding for the book at the time.
These days Amazon has a place where writers can comment on their books. It may not have existed in 1999.
It's one thing to fake a review, but there's nothing wrong with using that spot to talk to your readers.
It's one thing to fake a review, but there's nothing wrong with using that spot to talk to your readers.
I agree that authors should avoid responding to reviews. However, this is the most gracious response to a review I have ever read from an author. From everything I have read from authors, it does not matter how many books they sell, bad reviews still hurt.
<grin>
I felt similarly. “Why not write a blog post?” I thought.
A blog post in 1999 is asking a little much.
But then again, Ender's Game included the general idea of blogs as a plot point... (Not sure what else you would classify Peter/Valentine's self-published online essays as.)
Aren't they explicitly described as forum postings?
Yes. And, sadly, USENET still has a lot of ways it was superior to current web-based forums, blogs, etc.
Yeah, it's described as something more akin to Usenet than anything else from what I remember.
Yeah, they were using some use-net like technology to post, since the web wasn't really around when the book was written.
I'd argue they carried the same social role as blogs. To me, the key vision is that online, self-published essays could be widely read and influential.
-edit- Actually referencing the book, they do eventually become part of "newsnets", being paid for their work and gaining a wider audience.
It also describes them using temporary anonymous accounts, injecting deliberately inflammatory comments into discussions to provoke a response. >_>
I'd argue they carried the same social role as blogs. To me, the key vision is that online, self-published essays could be widely read and influential.
-edit- Actually referencing the book, they do eventually become part of "newsnets", being paid for their work and gaining a wider audience.
It also describes them using temporary anonymous accounts, injecting deliberately inflammatory comments into discussions to provoke a response. >_>
I find it hard to resist posting the obvious XKCD reference (http://xkcd.com/635/).
On a more salient point, I always find it interesting to compare the idea of anonymity in the Ender world compared to what we have now. I'd be curious in seeing Card's take on it; despite how prescient the idea of a blog was, I don't think he ever conceived of how massively outweighed the signal could be compared to the amount of noise.
On a more salient point, I always find it interesting to compare the idea of anonymity in the Ender world compared to what we have now. I'd be curious in seeing Card's take on it; despite how prescient the idea of a blog was, I don't think he ever conceived of how massively outweighed the signal could be compared to the amount of noise.
IIRC Orson Scott Card had his own area on AOL in the mid 90s, and possibly earlier. Not sure when he moved to the big-boy Internet but the name is the same, "Hatrack River".
It wasn't a 'blog' per se, more of a forum, I think ... I only dropped in once or twice and my recollection was that the discussion was (at the time) more about his religion than about his writing.
But if he'd just wanted to speak to fans he's certainly had an outlet to do so for a long time, and had it at the time the review was written. Presumably he chose to write the response in the form of an Amazon review consciously, and not for want of some other venue.
It wasn't a 'blog' per se, more of a forum, I think ... I only dropped in once or twice and my recollection was that the discussion was (at the time) more about his religion than about his writing.
But if he'd just wanted to speak to fans he's certainly had an outlet to do so for a long time, and had it at the time the review was written. Presumably he chose to write the response in the form of an Amazon review consciously, and not for want of some other venue.
I always thought of Ender's Game of something like a child's book. Something like Harry Potter to LoTRs. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, I mean, Harry Potter got a whole bunch of people reading. But seeing this explanation helps me better understand why I feel like that, and what it means.
I'd call this an analysis more than a review. Whatever you think it is, I found it a pretty honest and open piece coming from someone who has such a personal stake in the book.
I'd call this an analysis more than a review. Whatever you think it is, I found it a pretty honest and open piece coming from someone who has such a personal stake in the book.
The short story was much better.
There is speculation that the full length novel was ghost written. Essentially somebody asked Card a bunch of questions about it, and he didn't know the answers to any of his questions...
see also: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/5/28/22428/7034
NB: I'm not claiming it's true, just pointing out that a claim has been made
There is speculation that the full length novel was ghost written. Essentially somebody asked Card a bunch of questions about it, and he didn't know the answers to any of his questions...
see also: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/5/28/22428/7034
NB: I'm not claiming it's true, just pointing out that a claim has been made
I call BS on premise of that link, and on the original essay (which is now online: http://peachfront.diaryland.com/enderhitlte.html)
Claims like this fail the Occam's Razor test:
I've seen Elaine's notes and heard Card on the phone, and there is no doubt in my mind that the Hitler Hypothesis is correct; it is simply impossible that Ender's Game and Speaker were written by someone who did not have a very detailed knowledge of Adolph Hitler's life. There are very exact parallels in there that you wouldn't even notice unless you read the footnotes to the most detailed Hitler biographies. I also tend to believe that Card does not have that level of knowledge about Hitler.
It would be simpler to assume that a story where a person causes the extinction of a species would have some similarities with a war in which genocide occurred.
I've read Card's books and I have reasonable knowledge of Hitler and I didn't notice any particular parallel. I suspect that the claim that he doesn't know his own books comes more from a reluctance to engage in a telephone debate rather than the idea that he didn't write them
I say that as someone who really liked Ender's Game, but thought Speaker for the Dead was crap. I had always assumed that Speaker for the Dead had some kind of Mormon message, but I think these accusations go way too far and are unsupported by the evidence.
Claims like this fail the Occam's Razor test:
I've seen Elaine's notes and heard Card on the phone, and there is no doubt in my mind that the Hitler Hypothesis is correct; it is simply impossible that Ender's Game and Speaker were written by someone who did not have a very detailed knowledge of Adolph Hitler's life. There are very exact parallels in there that you wouldn't even notice unless you read the footnotes to the most detailed Hitler biographies. I also tend to believe that Card does not have that level of knowledge about Hitler.
It would be simpler to assume that a story where a person causes the extinction of a species would have some similarities with a war in which genocide occurred.
I've read Card's books and I have reasonable knowledge of Hitler and I didn't notice any particular parallel. I suspect that the claim that he doesn't know his own books comes more from a reluctance to engage in a telephone debate rather than the idea that he didn't write them
I say that as someone who really liked Ender's Game, but thought Speaker for the Dead was crap. I had always assumed that Speaker for the Dead had some kind of Mormon message, but I think these accusations go way too far and are unsupported by the evidence.
To be fair, having read all of the books in the...currently 9? 10? Enderverse-related series, Ender's Game does come off as extremely low-level. The later Ender books go oddly metaphysically-shaped towards the end, and not always enjoyably so. The Shadow series, on the other hand, was (to me) rather more interesting.
I'll just point out that the thing I didn't like about enders game was that the book felt too monotone. It has a great twist at the end, but everything leading up to it is linear, predictable, and while initially exciting, quickly becomes uninteresting.
I've read through Ender's Game more times than I can count, and have worn through two paperback copies. It is a powerful book with plenty of great object lessons. Quality is, of course, in the eye of the beholder.
I really don't think people should be down-voted for writing a dissenting, non-inflammatory opinion. I really liked Ender's Game (it is on my top 10 list, in fact), but I would absolutely hate living in a world where everybody loved it (even worse would be a world that people felt they couldn't express their dislike for fear of upsetting others).
I think that Ender's Game is one of those books whose appeal is largely independent of its literary merits. The people who love it really love it because they identify with it, it speaks to them, and if you don't identify with it then it's just some random okay sort of sci-fi story about space battles.
I never really identified with it, but maybe if I'd read it at twelve instead of 24 then I would have. (Though I'm kinda glad I didn't.)
I say this not to disparage the book. A fairly well-written book that speaks to a lot of people is much better than a very well-crafted book that speaks to nobody (I'm looking at you, Mr Joyce). And I'm sure there are relatively crappy works of art that I like just because I identify with 'em. But Ender's Game is just one of those love-it-or-go-meh-at-it books.
I never really identified with it, but maybe if I'd read it at twelve instead of 24 then I would have. (Though I'm kinda glad I didn't.)
I say this not to disparage the book. A fairly well-written book that speaks to a lot of people is much better than a very well-crafted book that speaks to nobody (I'm looking at you, Mr Joyce). And I'm sure there are relatively crappy works of art that I like just because I identify with 'em. But Ender's Game is just one of those love-it-or-go-meh-at-it books.
Which is likely due to the style choice as OSC mentions in his self-book-review.
Personally, having read it at an early age, I found the science part of the sci-fi to be very captivating and philosophy to be interesting.
From a sci-fi historiology perspective, you can see parts of the Bradbury style space-as-wild-west, while also some of the Gibson-esqe interconnected computing. I also found that the philosophy of the ansible to be related to some of Philip K Dick's warped sense of reality books.
Personally, having read it at an early age, I found the science part of the sci-fi to be very captivating and philosophy to be interesting.
From a sci-fi historiology perspective, you can see parts of the Bradbury style space-as-wild-west, while also some of the Gibson-esqe interconnected computing. I also found that the philosophy of the ansible to be related to some of Philip K Dick's warped sense of reality books.
That happens with short stories that become novels. If the short story was good enough to be worth converting to a novel, it already has everything it needs to be great. What more can you add?
I found that the less I put on the stage, the more the audience would imagine a much more compelling set than I could ever build
Analogous to Card's statement, lately I've come to realize that I like movies better when they don't explicitly tell you everything. I think a good formula for writing is to lay all the facts out, then remove one or two of them from the script.
Analogous to Card's statement, lately I've come to realize that I like movies better when they don't explicitly tell you everything. I think a good formula for writing is to lay all the facts out, then remove one or two of them from the script.
I'd almost agree with you, but as you describe it, the result would just be deus ex machina. It's not fair to just pull a resolution out of your butt, that couldn't possibly have been predicted.
Better to have all the facts there, but not in your face. Commonly, a film with focus on a key point, or dwell on an image, to ensure that the viewer gets it, and I think that's a mistake. A good example of a movie that gets it right is Silence of the Lambs, in which all the information is there, but the viewer needs to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Better to have all the facts there, but not in your face. Commonly, a film with focus on a key point, or dwell on an image, to ensure that the viewer gets it, and I think that's a mistake. A good example of a movie that gets it right is Silence of the Lambs, in which all the information is there, but the viewer needs to separate the wheat from the chaff.
I didn't mean deux ex machina. You can provide the information and let the audience infer the result, or you can explicitly show the result. As you build the storyline and subplots, judiciously allowing the audience to interpret what happened at intermediate points in the story or at the end can make it more interesting than simply laying it all out.
It's always a balancing act. Chances are any specific level of detail will belabor the point for some readers/watchers, while simultaneously leaving others in the dark.
It's hard to see an author so defensive about their work. There will always be naysayers. Ender's game has persisted for so long in a way that so many of it's peers hasn't.
We have to remember that negative experiences effect our users more, and complaints will in general outnumber the praise, even if the the number of users who are unhappy are outnumbered by happy users by orders of magnitude.
Alternatively, haters gonna hate.
We have to remember that negative experiences effect our users more, and complaints will in general outnumber the praise, even if the the number of users who are unhappy are outnumbered by happy users by orders of magnitude.
Alternatively, haters gonna hate.
I don't find it challenging or difficult or upsetting at all to see an artist vigorously defend his work. What I find "hard" is someone poo-pooing another person's passionate defense of something they care about.
You don't have to put quotation marks around hard; one of its definitions is an adjective meaning painful or difficult to endure.
GP used quotation marks because it was a quote.
The problem with Scott Card is that he substitutes proper character development with "let's make all the characters naive children who eventually realize all the adults are manipulative". Its a total copout, and he doesn't just do it wth the ender books.
Oh yeah, that and his crazy is often showing...
Oh yeah, that and his crazy is often showing...
If you thought that was the point of any of Card's books, then you must not have read them very carefully.
The point of Ender's Game was to explore the notion of the ideal human. Ender's shadow also addressed that topic. The adults merely represent forces beyond the protagonists' control, as most adults are in books featuring child characters.
The process of character development is one in which the children discover their own nature and the natures of those around them. The reader is intended to ask him/herself which nature is "best" and to thus view a difficult and opaque moral question with the clarity of comparing a group of friends. Quite ingenious, especially when you consider that this is a children's book. I challenge you to find a more insightful novel of ideas with equivalent appeal to the same young demographic.
The point of Ender's Game was to explore the notion of the ideal human. Ender's shadow also addressed that topic. The adults merely represent forces beyond the protagonists' control, as most adults are in books featuring child characters.
The process of character development is one in which the children discover their own nature and the natures of those around them. The reader is intended to ask him/herself which nature is "best" and to thus view a difficult and opaque moral question with the clarity of comparing a group of friends. Quite ingenious, especially when you consider that this is a children's book. I challenge you to find a more insightful novel of ideas with equivalent appeal to the same young demographic.
> "let's make all the characters naive children who eventually realize all the adults are manipulative".
I can't agree. Speaker for the Dead (and sequels) characters have a lot of complexity in their arcs – perhaps because they're mostly not children. I'd say the Speaker series is a perfect example of how to create characters with nuance, depth and multiple motivations.
I can't agree. Speaker for the Dead (and sequels) characters have a lot of complexity in their arcs – perhaps because they're mostly not children. I'd say the Speaker series is a perfect example of how to create characters with nuance, depth and multiple motivations.
Check out 'A Memory of Earth'.
(Or better yet, don't. It, enders game, and enders shadow all did it. Three strikes and you're out imho, certainly when one of them is the book the author is known for)
(Or better yet, don't. It, enders game, and enders shadow all did it. Three strikes and you're out imho, certainly when one of them is the book the author is known for)
Three books out of thirty.
And two of those books are the same story told from the perspective of different characters. And although that is part of the plot of those books, I don't see how you can say that's all there is to those characters. The pivotal moments in Ender's life are his acts of violence, not the adults' manipulation.
And the other isn't really about naive children realizing adults are manipulative, either — the characters just happen to be young. Volemak (the main adult in the story) actually is a good man, and the children who oppose him are the antagonists.
Seriously, I have a laundry list of complaints about Card's writing (the Homecoming series in particular), but your complaints seem pretty shallow and sound like you're levying heavy criticism without ever giving them a chance.
And two of those books are the same story told from the perspective of different characters. And although that is part of the plot of those books, I don't see how you can say that's all there is to those characters. The pivotal moments in Ender's life are his acts of violence, not the adults' manipulation.
And the other isn't really about naive children realizing adults are manipulative, either — the characters just happen to be young. Volemak (the main adult in the story) actually is a good man, and the children who oppose him are the antagonists.
Seriously, I have a laundry list of complaints about Card's writing (the Homecoming series in particular), but your complaints seem pretty shallow and sound like you're levying heavy criticism without ever giving them a chance.
This particular complaint of mine is purely technical. I think that, based on three of his three book that I have read, he demonstrates a significant lack of skill when it comes to character development. Trust me, if I was going to get into nontechnical complaints, I would undoubtably be downvoted simply for creating an unreasonably long post alone.
Anyway, my time is worth too much to be scientifically rigorous. I gave him the benefit of the doubt twice already, and am not willing to do it again. And to be honest, I would suggest that anyone who thinks I somehow "missed something" in his works is giving the man far to much credit.
Anyway, my time is worth too much to be scientifically rigorous. I gave him the benefit of the doubt twice already, and am not willing to do it again. And to be honest, I would suggest that anyone who thinks I somehow "missed something" in his works is giving the man far to much credit.
It is a little funny to see Ender's Game on HN today. Tomorrow I'm going on a fishing trip with my 10 year old son. As our evening entertainment, he wanted me to read him Ender's Game. I've got the book already packed in my bag.
Very classy. Plus gives a little insight into how a writer approaches it as a craft. Love to read things like this.
I love Ender's Game and all of OSC's other books, but it seems like he might be a terrible guy... more on that in this very interesting interview: http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2000/02/03/card
The author misunderstands what Card is trying to say in response to her questions. Also, she evidently misunderstood Ender's Game quite a bit as well.
Ender was suited to be a brilliant military commander precisely because he hated killing so much. A more bloodthirsty commander would have fallen for certain traps, committed certain errors of judgment that Ender was immune to. The nuance here is that Ender's strategic advantage came from a tremendous empathy with his adversary.
In the end, Ender had to be fooled into destroying the Buggers precisely because of this empathy. He never would have been able to commit a genocide if he thought it was actually a genocide, but he could do it in the context of a video game.
And, for what it's worth, the childhood bullying delivered by Ender's brother was also a function of Ender's love for his brother. We see very soon that Ender is capable of tremendous violence, but he tolerates mistreatment from Peter because he loves him so much.
It is this victimhood which endears Ender to any reader who has felt victimized, by showing that in some cases there is great physical and moral power beneath the surface.
The author of this strange hit piece is clearly trying to rile up various reactive political groups against Card. Sure, card is a Mormon and appears somewhat socially conservative in his personal beliefs. He is clearly not homophobic and became defensive when he sensed that the author was trying to broach the subject which had probably caused him much pain.
Sure some people believe that anyone who doesn't advocate same sex marriage qualifies as homophobic... The author of the Salon piece clearly thinks that state recognition of same sex marriage is hugely important.
I'd argue that through his books Card has done far more good (by enlightening people about important moral issues) than any harm caused by his traditional view (restricting the word "marriage" but not the state sanctioned bond between two people).
The remarks about Card yapping and flirting suggest a very immature person wrote the article. Clearly at a certain point Card was trying to be polite and let the interview finish without incident... something that was framed as "shutting down"... Bizarre stuff.
Ender was suited to be a brilliant military commander precisely because he hated killing so much. A more bloodthirsty commander would have fallen for certain traps, committed certain errors of judgment that Ender was immune to. The nuance here is that Ender's strategic advantage came from a tremendous empathy with his adversary.
In the end, Ender had to be fooled into destroying the Buggers precisely because of this empathy. He never would have been able to commit a genocide if he thought it was actually a genocide, but he could do it in the context of a video game.
And, for what it's worth, the childhood bullying delivered by Ender's brother was also a function of Ender's love for his brother. We see very soon that Ender is capable of tremendous violence, but he tolerates mistreatment from Peter because he loves him so much.
It is this victimhood which endears Ender to any reader who has felt victimized, by showing that in some cases there is great physical and moral power beneath the surface.
The author of this strange hit piece is clearly trying to rile up various reactive political groups against Card. Sure, card is a Mormon and appears somewhat socially conservative in his personal beliefs. He is clearly not homophobic and became defensive when he sensed that the author was trying to broach the subject which had probably caused him much pain.
Sure some people believe that anyone who doesn't advocate same sex marriage qualifies as homophobic... The author of the Salon piece clearly thinks that state recognition of same sex marriage is hugely important.
I'd argue that through his books Card has done far more good (by enlightening people about important moral issues) than any harm caused by his traditional view (restricting the word "marriage" but not the state sanctioned bond between two people).
The remarks about Card yapping and flirting suggest a very immature person wrote the article. Clearly at a certain point Card was trying to be polite and let the interview finish without incident... something that was framed as "shutting down"... Bizarre stuff.
I would take issue with your view that Card isn't homophobic.
From "The Hypocrites of Homosexuality" by Orson Scott Card:
"Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message to those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society."
So the man actively opposes it gay marriage. He supports laws that make homosexual acts illegal. He doesn't think that gays should be protected from getting fired because of their sexuality. How is that not homophobic?
From "The Hypocrites of Homosexuality" by Orson Scott Card:
"Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message to those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society."
So the man actively opposes it gay marriage. He supports laws that make homosexual acts illegal. He doesn't think that gays should be protected from getting fired because of their sexuality. How is that not homophobic?
"Homophobic" gets bandied about to the point of losing its meaning. "Unreasoning fear/antipathy towards homosexuals/homosexuality" is what the dictionary spat out, and I suspect Card would say 1) it's not "unreasoning" 2)"antipathy towards homosexuality" != "evil."
I agree that the application of the word "homophobe" does not fit with its etymology. Are these people actually afraid of homosexuals, like a person with aracnophobia is afraid of spiders, or do they just disagree with some social positions, like the appropriate context and meaning of state endorsement and support for a relationship? It seems that anyone who doesn't take the envelope the gay rights people are pushing is suddenly an illogical homophobe, afraid that buttsex is going to bite and poison them.
Even an argument that homosexuality altogether is immoral and should not be socially acceptable behavior is not the same thing as being afraid of persons that perform homosexual acts; it's merely ostracizing the behavior, as one may ostracize a person for meth use, though it'd be silly to call one that supports meth prohibition a dopephobe just because he doesn't think meth use should become a social norm.
You can dislike a behavior without fearing it, and you can have rational reasons for that dislike. The term "homophobe" is applied to try and stop people from criticizing the gay rights agenda by labeling them as irrational bigots if any protest is raised.
Even an argument that homosexuality altogether is immoral and should not be socially acceptable behavior is not the same thing as being afraid of persons that perform homosexual acts; it's merely ostracizing the behavior, as one may ostracize a person for meth use, though it'd be silly to call one that supports meth prohibition a dopephobe just because he doesn't think meth use should become a social norm.
You can dislike a behavior without fearing it, and you can have rational reasons for that dislike. The term "homophobe" is applied to try and stop people from criticizing the gay rights agenda by labeling them as irrational bigots if any protest is raised.
I'm pretty sure a reasonable person would consider it antipathy towards homosexuality.
You're absolutely right. My comment probably implied that I didn't think Card is homophobic. Rather, I meant to get across that I don't think he minds.
I'd need to read the whole article before knowing for sure how to react to that paragraph, as it appears to be part of a reductio ad absurdum -- that one would have to claim that society ought to have no laws whatsoever limiting sexual behavior in order to refute his point. This might explain his emphasis on laws, which usually boils down to an argument lauding the democratic process that got us those laws, while taking a more skeptical view on the laws themselves.
I think the issue of employment discrimination is a bit of a straw man. If an employee isn't working out he/she will be fired eventually for some reason. If a firm's corporate culture is homophobic, chances are there will be some technicality that allows for the firing of an individual in spite of any laws restricting hiring/firing reasons. I think this applies to all such laws "protecting" any group.
I think the issue of employment discrimination is a bit of a straw man. If an employee isn't working out he/she will be fired eventually for some reason. If a firm's corporate culture is homophobic, chances are there will be some technicality that allows for the firing of an individual in spite of any laws restricting hiring/firing reasons. I think this applies to all such laws "protecting" any group.
It is no way a straw man argument. A straw man argument is when you invent or restate the other person original argument.
In the interview he specifically stated that he supported laws that protected people from being fired based on race but NOT homosexuality.
There are certainly legitimate reasons to not support laws protecting people from discrimination. If Card had been against them in GENERAL and I had cherry-picked his opposition to those laws protecting sexual orientation, THEN it may have construed a straw man argument. But I did no such thing. I did not misinterpret his position; he was not opposed to such laws in general, but ONLY those regarding sexual orientation.
In the interview he specifically stated that he supported laws that protected people from being fired based on race but NOT homosexuality.
There are certainly legitimate reasons to not support laws protecting people from discrimination. If Card had been against them in GENERAL and I had cherry-picked his opposition to those laws protecting sexual orientation, THEN it may have construed a straw man argument. But I did no such thing. I did not misinterpret his position; he was not opposed to such laws in general, but ONLY those regarding sexual orientation.
> You say, "He is clearly not homophobic."
In the interview, Card says "I find the comparison between civil rights based on race and supposed new rights being granted for what amounts to deviant behavior to be really kind of ridiculous. There is no comparison. A black as a person does not by being black harm anyone. Gay rights is a collective delusion that's being attempted" (emphasis mine).
Calling homosexuality "deviant behavior" upsets me, but the really revealing part, I think is the bit I emphasized. The implication certainly appears to be that (by parity of reasoning) "A homosexual does harm someone simply by being homosexual".
If that's not homophobic, I don't know what is.
In the interview, Card says "I find the comparison between civil rights based on race and supposed new rights being granted for what amounts to deviant behavior to be really kind of ridiculous. There is no comparison. A black as a person does not by being black harm anyone. Gay rights is a collective delusion that's being attempted" (emphasis mine).
Calling homosexuality "deviant behavior" upsets me, but the really revealing part, I think is the bit I emphasized. The implication certainly appears to be that (by parity of reasoning) "A homosexual does harm someone simply by being homosexual".
If that's not homophobic, I don't know what is.
I think that a relatively sane viewpoint would cover the idea that being black is not something the person chooses to become, while engaging in homosexual behavior is very clearly a lifestyle choice; given that there is genetic coding for whether you are black or not, but no coding for homosexuality.
While there are many choices that all people make in the sphere of sexuality, choosing who lights your fire is not one of them. I can no more choose to find men sexually attractive than I can choose to not find sugar sweet.
I have no way to answer that without resorting to anecdotal evidence, as you are yourself doing. I could answer with quotes from the "ex-gay" movement ... but those are anecdotal as well.
I don't think there is a way to gather hard evidence without engaging in unethical conduct (that is, any psych experiment that would give data might irreparably harm people and thus would be wrong).
I don't think there is a way to gather hard evidence without engaging in unethical conduct (that is, any psych experiment that would give data might irreparably harm people and thus would be wrong).
«Sure, card is a Mormon and appears somewhat socially conservative in his personal beliefs.»
Not just «somewhat», he believes that armed insurrection is justified as a response to gay marriage:
«Because when government is the enemy of marriage, then the people who are actually creating successful marriages have no choice but to change governments, by whatever means is made possible or necessary.»
see http://www.mormontimes.com/article/10233/State-job-is-not-to...
Not just «somewhat», he believes that armed insurrection is justified as a response to gay marriage:
«Because when government is the enemy of marriage, then the people who are actually creating successful marriages have no choice but to change governments, by whatever means is made possible or necessary.»
see http://www.mormontimes.com/article/10233/State-job-is-not-to...
This is plainly a opinion piece written to support the Mormon's role in defeating proposition 8 (gay marriage) in California in 2008 (note the date of the article). That role was controversial, see [1], and Card is supporting it here.
We don't need to stoop to the level of playing dirty politics by taking things out of context in HN.
Card's attitudes to homosexuality is enough without accusing him of things it's pretty clear he's not trying to say.
[1] http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/06/18/prop-8-documentary/
We don't need to stoop to the level of playing dirty politics by taking things out of context in HN.
Card's attitudes to homosexuality is enough without accusing him of things it's pretty clear he's not trying to say.
[1] http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/06/18/prop-8-documentary/
Why the downvotes?
This is a textbook terrible HN comment.
It sources what may be the single worst literary interview ever conducted (the author interviews herself snickering at her subject) to illuminate the worst-kept secret in all sci-fi fandom (that Orson Scott Card is a devout socially conservative Mormon), all in service of the conclusion that social conservatives are "terrible" people.
NOTHING GOOD CAN CONCEIVABLY COME OF THE ENSUING DISCUSSION.
I've read a bunch of your comments. You are way better than this one.
Please don't write stuff like this on HN.
It sources what may be the single worst literary interview ever conducted (the author interviews herself snickering at her subject) to illuminate the worst-kept secret in all sci-fi fandom (that Orson Scott Card is a devout socially conservative Mormon), all in service of the conclusion that social conservatives are "terrible" people.
NOTHING GOOD CAN CONCEIVABLY COME OF THE ENSUING DISCUSSION.
I've read a bunch of your comments. You are way better than this one.
Please don't write stuff like this on HN.
Well said, tptacek, well said.
As soon as I saw Orson Scott Card's name come up, I knew the conversation would devolve into his (wacky) political views.
There's now 59 comments on this thread, and while I haven't bothered to count it seems that at least 45 of 'em are in this rather dull political argument about gay rights. And since nobody has actually showed up with the anti-gay-rights position, we're stuck discussing precisely which nasty names we should call someone who doesn't share our mutual opinion. Even this rather narrow corner of debate space has apparently got some people rather heated.
And yet, there I am too, throwing my weight in on this boring topic. And this is why politics is something one must actively avoid talking about.
As soon as I saw Orson Scott Card's name come up, I knew the conversation would devolve into his (wacky) political views.
There's now 59 comments on this thread, and while I haven't bothered to count it seems that at least 45 of 'em are in this rather dull political argument about gay rights. And since nobody has actually showed up with the anti-gay-rights position, we're stuck discussing precisely which nasty names we should call someone who doesn't share our mutual opinion. Even this rather narrow corner of debate space has apparently got some people rather heated.
And yet, there I am too, throwing my weight in on this boring topic. And this is why politics is something one must actively avoid talking about.
Indeed. I wish I could collapse down a subthread a la reddit.
Ah, but you can. :) https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/bbkfcamiocfccgmcjn...
Thanks. I normally use Firefox but I might end up using Chrome just for HN.
I found myself disliking the slanted editorializing of the interviewer more than OSC. She's seems unhealthily intent on wallowing in victimhood, and delights in the power she has - "I prefer to get my digs in when I write the piece up, like this. It's a way of fighting back without ever having to face my tormentor head-on." - when whomever she's beating up can't fight back. She has become the bully herself.
Is he actually a terrible person, or merely one who happens to have unpopular opinions?
Hear, hear. I didn't find anything in this interview that identifies him as a "terrible person". Yes, things he says are unpopular on the internet, given the internet's demographics - young, liberal, etc. But I think someone who calls him a "terrible person" based only on views he expressed hasn't met many terrible people in their lifetime.
And before I get accused of being his fanboy, I can't stand Ender's Game. I think it's the most overrated piece of garbage in history of sci-fi.. sometimes it reads like a work of a 12 year old. Terrible writing, worse, incredibly naive plot, I have no idea how it can be considered a "classic" and works by far better sci-fi authors like Clifford Simak, Robert Sheckley, Henry Kuttner, Alfred Bester, etc are unfairly forgotten.
Having said that, I think the Card's masterpiece is the insults he wrote for Monkey Island game... now that's a great piece of writing!
And before I get accused of being his fanboy, I can't stand Ender's Game. I think it's the most overrated piece of garbage in history of sci-fi.. sometimes it reads like a work of a 12 year old. Terrible writing, worse, incredibly naive plot, I have no idea how it can be considered a "classic" and works by far better sci-fi authors like Clifford Simak, Robert Sheckley, Henry Kuttner, Alfred Bester, etc are unfairly forgotten.
Having said that, I think the Card's masterpiece is the insults he wrote for Monkey Island game... now that's a great piece of writing!
In my humble opinion, it is not unreasonable to judge a person by their publicly stated opinions.
But where do you draw the line between "Opinions with which I disagree" and "Opinions which make you a bad person if you hold them"?
I tend to classify really silly opinions as "loopy" rather than "evil", as long as they don't actually advocate violence or similar. OSC has loopy opinions, not immoral ones.
I tend to classify really silly opinions as "loopy" rather than "evil", as long as they don't actually advocate violence or similar. OSC has loopy opinions, not immoral ones.
Hateful and discriminatory seems like a decent line to me, but hey, its a judgement call. Decide for yourself.
Hateful and discriminatory seems like a decent line to me
To me, you sound like the thought police.
In my moral code, we're entitled to think what we want, and nobody has any business condemning us based on our thoughts. The line is our actions: if we do something to someone as a result of our thoughts, that crosses the line.
I've said to a few gay friends that I personally think that homosexuality is gross; but I also think that broccoli is gross. The fact that I feel that way doesn't have anything to do with the way I view them as people, and certainly not how I treat them -- not any more than my distaste for broccoli affects my relationship with eaters of broccoli. And everyone I've talked about this attitude with seems to think it's a perfectly reasonable one to hold.
To me, you sound like the thought police.
In my moral code, we're entitled to think what we want, and nobody has any business condemning us based on our thoughts. The line is our actions: if we do something to someone as a result of our thoughts, that crosses the line.
I've said to a few gay friends that I personally think that homosexuality is gross; but I also think that broccoli is gross. The fact that I feel that way doesn't have anything to do with the way I view them as people, and certainly not how I treat them -- not any more than my distaste for broccoli affects my relationship with eaters of broccoli. And everyone I've talked about this attitude with seems to think it's a perfectly reasonable one to hold.
You and Scott Card are both entitled to your own opinions and moral beliefs. And I am entitled to call people who spout anti-homosexual hate speech homophobes on the internet.
Furthermore: if Scott Card's stated opinions on homosexuality were as.. mellow.. as yours, then you wouldn't see me caring quite so much. I'm not sure why you're defending yourself when I'm talking about Scott Card...
Furthermore: if Scott Card's stated opinions on homosexuality were as.. mellow.. as yours, then you wouldn't see me caring quite so much. I'm not sure why you're defending yourself when I'm talking about Scott Card...
You don't want this recursion to apply to you too. Saying a person who says someone is terrible is terrible puts you next in line. Fortunately for both of us I don't think you're terrible, just a little too excited to dislike someone.
You know what? I think I'm actually alright with someone thinking that I am terrible because I think that outspoken homophobes are terrible.
Yeah, I am pretty sure that doesn't concern me in the slightest.
Edit: fixed stupid corrective spelling thing...
Yeah, I am pretty sure that doesn't concern me in the slightest.
Edit: fixed stupid corrective spelling thing...
Okay, then follow the recursion back the other way. You should expect them to care as little about what you think as you care about what I think.
It seems either you believe your opposites have a more open mind than you do (so you can convince them despite your unconcern about being perceived as being like them), or you are writing opinions you hope your intended audience will like so they will like you. Perhaps you are writing for a judging God or people you consider to be your social superiors (people who can upvote.) You might reply that you write your opinions only for yourself, but because you wrote them here instead of a desktop text editor I think you want some other benefit.
It seems either you believe your opposites have a more open mind than you do (so you can convince them despite your unconcern about being perceived as being like them), or you are writing opinions you hope your intended audience will like so they will like you. Perhaps you are writing for a judging God or people you consider to be your social superiors (people who can upvote.) You might reply that you write your opinions only for yourself, but because you wrote them here instead of a desktop text editor I think you want some other benefit.
I am not "open minded" towards homophobia, nor do I want to be, or believe anybody should be. I similarly don't think people should be open minded towards racism or genocide.
If this is close mindedness, then your statement "you believe your opposites have a more open mind than you do" does not concern me in the slightest. This is exactly the sentiment I was expressing earlier.
If this is close mindedness, then your statement "you believe your opposites have a more open mind than you do" does not concern me in the slightest. This is exactly the sentiment I was expressing earlier.
Is that because you are willing to fight it out? Or because you think you've got the people with the "wrong" opinions well out-numbered?
Use your imagination and consider circumstances where people with the "right" opinions are outnumbered, and considered dangerous. I _hope_ that I'd be saying the right things in Berlin 1935, or Richmond 1855, or Birmingham 1958, or Moscow 1920 - 1985. But I'm damn sure I'd be _concerned_ about the reaction to those remarks.
Use your imagination and consider circumstances where people with the "right" opinions are outnumbered, and considered dangerous. I _hope_ that I'd be saying the right things in Berlin 1935, or Richmond 1855, or Birmingham 1958, or Moscow 1920 - 1985. But I'm damn sure I'd be _concerned_ about the reaction to those remarks.
I mean I am not going to lose sleep over people thinking less of me for disliking homophobes. I won't be persuaded to modify my opinions by warnings that the people I dislike (homophobes) will dislike me in return.
And you've already dismissed the possibility that they actually have reasons for their opinions, or you wouldn't refer to them with a pejorative. So it looks like nothing could persuade to change your mind.
The problem with these "homophobes" is their closed minds, right?
The problem with these "homophobes" is their closed minds, right?
I don't care what their reasons are, nor have I ever doubted that they have them. Racists have reasons too, simply having a reason is worthless.
[deleted]
I generally agree, so long as you remember that talk is cheap. If you shouldn't respect someone too much for talking about the great things they'll do, you shouldn't hold it too hard against someone for talking about terrible positions.
Expressing hateful ideas about others and bragging about oneself are hardly opposite concepts. Slightly tangential, but generally both negative.
If however, someone expresses and endorses kind and progressive social statements, I certainly do use that when judging their character.
If however, someone expresses and endorses kind and progressive social statements, I certainly do use that when judging their character.
Sure it's reasonable. But do I judge Steve Jobs by what toppings he likes on his pizza or what kind of rap he listens to? No. I may agree or disagree with him, but his opinions on those matters have no bearing whatsoever on my primary relationship with him, which is as a purchaser of the hardware and software he designs.
Similarly with Card, I am a reader of his fiction and so I don't care what color socks he wears, how often he showers, or whether he has a framed picture of Ronald McDonald on his wall.
Similarly with Card, I am a reader of his fiction and so I don't care what color socks he wears, how often he showers, or whether he has a framed picture of Ronald McDonald on his wall.
Preferred pizza toppings are in no way comparable to homophobic statements.
Perhaps a better comparison would be with Bobby Fischer.
Fischer idolized Hitler, denied the Holocaust, was antisemitic and wrote fanmail to Osama bin Laden[1].
But the same Bobby Fischer played beautiful chess that it's impossible not to admire.
I don't have a good philosophical framework to process how I can admire the beauty of Fischer's play (and Card's writing) and yet disagree incredibly strongly with their other views. None the less, it is possible.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer#Life_as_an_.C3.A9...
Fischer idolized Hitler, denied the Holocaust, was antisemitic and wrote fanmail to Osama bin Laden[1].
But the same Bobby Fischer played beautiful chess that it's impossible not to admire.
I don't have a good philosophical framework to process how I can admire the beauty of Fischer's play (and Card's writing) and yet disagree incredibly strongly with their other views. None the less, it is possible.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer#Life_as_an_.C3.A9...
Excellent point. I chose Jobs and bland opinions b/c I give equally low weight to someone's non-expert opinions no matter what domain they are in.
Do I want to ask Jobs or Card or Fischer for voting advice? No thanks. For advice on what sexual partner to pick? No thanks. It's the premise that we should somehow look to these achievers for wisdom outside their domains that is absurd.
Do I want to ask Jobs or Card or Fischer for voting advice? No thanks. For advice on what sexual partner to pick? No thanks. It's the premise that we should somehow look to these achievers for wisdom outside their domains that is absurd.
He does not want to give you advice on which sexual partner to pick. He thinks that it should be forbidden by law to be homosexual. There is nothing about this in "Ender's Game", to get back to the topic. So, while I think it is right to criticize Card for his views on sexuality, I don't think it should color one's reading of the book too much.
I don't believe its all that hard to respect Bobby Fischer's chess (while despising everything else about him), while at the same time failing to respect Scott Card in general.
Unlike chessplayers, authors play an important role in society by creating literature for that society to consume. They therefore, in my opinion, should be examined with more scrutiny.^ The fact that people hold up Ender's Game as a work with particular ethical/moral significance only strengthens my belief that we must hold Scott Card to a higher level.
But hey, this is just how I operate. For each their own I suppose.
^particularly when they start using their talent to spread their hate, and start letting it seep into their other 'manstream' work.
Unlike chessplayers, authors play an important role in society by creating literature for that society to consume. They therefore, in my opinion, should be examined with more scrutiny.^ The fact that people hold up Ender's Game as a work with particular ethical/moral significance only strengthens my belief that we must hold Scott Card to a higher level.
But hey, this is just how I operate. For each their own I suppose.
^particularly when they start using their talent to spread their hate, and start letting it seep into their other 'manstream' work.
Many would say the same about athletes... What professions do you think play such an important role that they should be judged for their personal political views rather than for the biproduct of their professional work?
While I agree that Card's views on homosexuality are disturbing, stupid, and quite shocking considering the considerable depth with which he appears (from his fiction writing) to understand difficult moral issues around demonizing members of a group, I think this is a dangerous precedent to set. Sure it'd be nice, but I think the consequence is inevitably that we are disillusioned b/c of some skeleton that is revealed (Tiger woods) or we prop up untalented hacks who happen to express all the right views (like Stephen Colbert, whose comedy is at best a crude sort of clowning).
While I agree that Card's views on homosexuality are disturbing, stupid, and quite shocking considering the considerable depth with which he appears (from his fiction writing) to understand difficult moral issues around demonizing members of a group, I think this is a dangerous precedent to set. Sure it'd be nice, but I think the consequence is inevitably that we are disillusioned b/c of some skeleton that is revealed (Tiger woods) or we prop up untalented hacks who happen to express all the right views (like Stephen Colbert, whose comedy is at best a crude sort of clowning).
We don't look towards athletes for their intellectual output. We do with authors.
I think we agree, although I don't find your point about authors needing more scrutiny convincing. I think any public person creates an example for their society, and that can be just as damaging.
However, my feelings regarding Card are more nuanced than just "respect/disrespect". For example, he has a blog where he gives information to aspiring writers. If I was an author should I ignore that useful information because I don't respect his moral views?
My current feeling is that information on it's own doesn't have a moral stance, and so I can respect his advice in one area but not in others. Yes, I agree this is a slippery slope, but I don't know what the solution is. Should I reject Fischer's advice on chess? Card's on writing? PG's on startups (because I don't agree that Lisp is a silver bullet? :))
particularly when they start using their talent to spread their hate, and start letting it seep into their other 'manstream' [sic] work.
I don't think Ender's Game showed any particular homophobia. There is some moral ambiguity in the book (which is kind of the point), but I didn't see anything very hateful in it.
However, my feelings regarding Card are more nuanced than just "respect/disrespect". For example, he has a blog where he gives information to aspiring writers. If I was an author should I ignore that useful information because I don't respect his moral views?
My current feeling is that information on it's own doesn't have a moral stance, and so I can respect his advice in one area but not in others. Yes, I agree this is a slippery slope, but I don't know what the solution is. Should I reject Fischer's advice on chess? Card's on writing? PG's on startups (because I don't agree that Lisp is a silver bullet? :))
particularly when they start using their talent to spread their hate, and start letting it seep into their other 'manstream' [sic] work.
I don't think Ender's Game showed any particular homophobia. There is some moral ambiguity in the book (which is kind of the point), but I didn't see anything very hateful in it.
Enders Game is not the book I had in mind with that statement, but his "Homecoming Series" are definitely... 'getting fringe', to put it kindly.
"'manstream' [sic]"
Ah, the perils of tiny keyboards. :/
"'manstream' [sic]"
Ah, the perils of tiny keyboards. :/
I think they are equivalent b/c both are simply aesthetic preferences. Neither is trying to persuade others to adopt his aesthetic preference. Neither is an expert on the topic being opined about.
At best one might claim that such a statement is ignorant. I think we start to get into trouble when we assume that an expert in one narrow area (such as fiction writing) should be/act non-ignorant in other areas of life. That is wishful thinking. It also suggests that we ought to expect "more" from someone with a narrow talent. Should a NFL player have perfect spelling? Should an olympic pole vaulter have a nuanced understanding of morality?
Human aptitude is very narrow and we should appreciate it where we find it and not look to put anyone on a broad pedestal.
At best one might claim that such a statement is ignorant. I think we start to get into trouble when we assume that an expert in one narrow area (such as fiction writing) should be/act non-ignorant in other areas of life. That is wishful thinking. It also suggests that we ought to expect "more" from someone with a narrow talent. Should a NFL player have perfect spelling? Should an olympic pole vaulter have a nuanced understanding of morality?
Human aptitude is very narrow and we should appreciate it where we find it and not look to put anyone on a broad pedestal.
Neither is trying to persuade others to adopt his aesthetic preference. He wishes to make it illegal how is that not pushing his views on others?
Citation?
Can't we make distinctions between the guy's philosophy and his writing? I for one do not feel the book (or any book) is diminished by my perception of the author as a person.
Personally, I can't: The book may not be diminished by itself, but my enjoyment of it certainly is, because I keep searching for evidence of the author's personal beliefs and/or agenda in the text, disrupting immersion.
We're talking about someone who writes stuff like this:
"The argument by the hypocrites of homosexuality that homosexual tendencies are genetically ingrained in some individuals is almost laughably irrelevant. We are all genetically predisposed toward some sin or another; we are all expected to control those genetic predispositions when it is possible.
[...]
Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those whoflagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society."
(Source: http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html)
And there's a lot of similar-level, oddly familiar sounding looneyness in his writings on various other political topics as well. It's perhaps most disturbing - or fascinating - that a writer as articulate would be content to be such a cliché. At times I wonder if it's all an act.
We're talking about someone who writes stuff like this:
"The argument by the hypocrites of homosexuality that homosexual tendencies are genetically ingrained in some individuals is almost laughably irrelevant. We are all genetically predisposed toward some sin or another; we are all expected to control those genetic predispositions when it is possible.
[...]
Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those whoflagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society."
(Source: http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html)
And there's a lot of similar-level, oddly familiar sounding looneyness in his writings on various other political topics as well. It's perhaps most disturbing - or fascinating - that a writer as articulate would be content to be such a cliché. At times I wonder if it's all an act.
I find it interesting that the first passage offends you so much. I support gay rights and would really like to see gender taken out of the law altogether, but Card's philosophy there seems unarguably true. People have lots of natural impulses that society expects them to control, so whether homosexuality is natural or not doesn't matter. Homosexuality would be no less acceptable in my eyes if it were a choice.
The difference between my outlook and Card's is in how we define "acceptable." I say, homosexuality is not harmful, so it should be allowed. Card uses a different measuring stick for his morality. That's all.
The difference between my outlook and Card's is in how we define "acceptable." I say, homosexuality is not harmful, so it should be allowed. Card uses a different measuring stick for his morality. That's all.
I actually don't find it offensive (though I obviously disagree with it) as much as I find it oddly recognizable: What he's trying to do throughout the entire linked text is proliferate the notion that homosexuality is in fact a choice, in that homosexuals can supposedly chose to control their sinful desires at no greater personal cost (but possibly even personal gain), whether those desires be genetically predisposed or not.
He does not cite any scientific knowledge to support this position, but he does take the time to point out that science can't prove him wrong yet (via a, quote, "science has barely scratched the surface" statement).
Of course he's also not giving any explanation for exactly why homosexuality is supposed to be sinful in the first place.
That entire angle is tired, old, trite, familiar. It's also stopping short of thinking things through fully, in the service of his personal agenda: If science has only scratched the surface so far, then it follows that what he takes for granted in his own text has to be called into question as well. Yet there is no uncertainty about his position in his text; he is very sure of himself.
And that's the part that really makes me wonder. This guy seems too intelligent to buy into half-assed argumentation of this kind - so what makes him write it?
Admittedly this does run the danger of opening up the pandora's box of the entire religion topic. I just can't for the life of me understand how someone rationally thinking could be satisfied with non-explanations like "To act otherwise is to give more respect to the opinions of men than to the judgments of God." (also from the text).
Beyond that I agree with your post, i.e. the genetic question not actually being relevant to me when it comes to whether homosexuality is acceptable.
He does not cite any scientific knowledge to support this position, but he does take the time to point out that science can't prove him wrong yet (via a, quote, "science has barely scratched the surface" statement).
Of course he's also not giving any explanation for exactly why homosexuality is supposed to be sinful in the first place.
That entire angle is tired, old, trite, familiar. It's also stopping short of thinking things through fully, in the service of his personal agenda: If science has only scratched the surface so far, then it follows that what he takes for granted in his own text has to be called into question as well. Yet there is no uncertainty about his position in his text; he is very sure of himself.
And that's the part that really makes me wonder. This guy seems too intelligent to buy into half-assed argumentation of this kind - so what makes him write it?
Admittedly this does run the danger of opening up the pandora's box of the entire religion topic. I just can't for the life of me understand how someone rationally thinking could be satisfied with non-explanations like "To act otherwise is to give more respect to the opinions of men than to the judgments of God." (also from the text).
Beyond that I agree with your post, i.e. the genetic question not actually being relevant to me when it comes to whether homosexuality is acceptable.
proliferate the notion that homosexuality is in fact a choice, in that homosexuals can supposedly chose to control their sinful desires
There are certainly a lot of behaviors that we're (as a species if not as an individual) predisposed to, that are viewed as socially unacceptable. For example, the benefits in a Darwinian framework of extramarital affairs are quite well established. It's to a males genetic advantage to have as many sexual partners as possible, and generally men do have such latent desires. Yet society condemns those who act on those desires, even though they're perfectly natural. Why can't we say that homosexuality is similar: something that an individual may be predisposed to for whatever reason, but if he wants to avoid society's scarlet letter, he must repress those desires? [1]
Of course he's also not giving any explanation for exactly why homosexuality is supposed to be sinful in the first place.
I'm not going to dig up citations for this because I'm not interested in proving it. Suffice it to say that there is sufficient text in the Christian Bible that someone who builds his moral codes from what he, personally, reads in its pages can reasonably come to the conclusion that homosexuality is a sin. [2]
[1] Not that I believe that a homosexual should have to repress those desires; I'm merely arguing that this is an internally consistent moral system.
[2] I also acknowledge that there are places in the Bible that might contradict that, or at least temper its severity. My point is that a reasonable person, weighing many passages in the Bible, might come to that conclusion.
There are certainly a lot of behaviors that we're (as a species if not as an individual) predisposed to, that are viewed as socially unacceptable. For example, the benefits in a Darwinian framework of extramarital affairs are quite well established. It's to a males genetic advantage to have as many sexual partners as possible, and generally men do have such latent desires. Yet society condemns those who act on those desires, even though they're perfectly natural. Why can't we say that homosexuality is similar: something that an individual may be predisposed to for whatever reason, but if he wants to avoid society's scarlet letter, he must repress those desires? [1]
Of course he's also not giving any explanation for exactly why homosexuality is supposed to be sinful in the first place.
I'm not going to dig up citations for this because I'm not interested in proving it. Suffice it to say that there is sufficient text in the Christian Bible that someone who builds his moral codes from what he, personally, reads in its pages can reasonably come to the conclusion that homosexuality is a sin. [2]
[1] Not that I believe that a homosexual should have to repress those desires; I'm merely arguing that this is an internally consistent moral system.
[2] I also acknowledge that there are places in the Bible that might contradict that, or at least temper its severity. My point is that a reasonable person, weighing many passages in the Bible, might come to that conclusion.
Besides the Biblical argument (which is indeed iffy), Card is a Mormon. The Mormon prophets have been very clear in their condemnation of homosexuality.
"This guy seems too intelligent to buy into half-assed argumentation of this kind - so what makes him write it?"
He's a Mormon! Two of the core dogmas of that religion are that (1) procreation is a duty, and (2) raising children well in a family is a duty. What you have to understand is that Mormons have remarkably low hypocrisy and cynicism. They give a lot of public lip service to procreation and family values, and then they go home, when nobody is looking, and make lots of babies and raise big families.
So they take it rather personally when a fringe political group (the tiny but loud homosexual lobby) tries to indoctrinate kindergartners that "it's my body and I can do whatever feels good", or hands out fisting kits in high schools. Mormons don't object to this because they are so fearful that their minds are diseased (phobic), but rather out of the belief that those activities do not make a strong basis for a society. (And they have a point. San Francisco's inverted population pyramid has even the secular authorities alarmed. If SF wasn't fascinating enough to attract enough a flood of immigrants, it would be Detroit with queers.)
Mormons are also very big on conscious self control of all appetites and lusts in the service of long-term goals. They don't just say "smoking is bad, mmmkay", they don't smoke. (The tobacco lobby does not diagnose this as the disease of tobaccophobia and hold My Lungs, My Choice rallies.) I suspect that this is the actual reason the Mormons and queers are so allergic to each other: the Mormons tend toward a very low time preference (long planning horizon) and the queers a high time preference (live in the moment). It is almost a law of nature that someone with high time preference will throw a hissy fit when lectured on moral choice by someone with low time preference.
He's a Mormon! Two of the core dogmas of that religion are that (1) procreation is a duty, and (2) raising children well in a family is a duty. What you have to understand is that Mormons have remarkably low hypocrisy and cynicism. They give a lot of public lip service to procreation and family values, and then they go home, when nobody is looking, and make lots of babies and raise big families.
So they take it rather personally when a fringe political group (the tiny but loud homosexual lobby) tries to indoctrinate kindergartners that "it's my body and I can do whatever feels good", or hands out fisting kits in high schools. Mormons don't object to this because they are so fearful that their minds are diseased (phobic), but rather out of the belief that those activities do not make a strong basis for a society. (And they have a point. San Francisco's inverted population pyramid has even the secular authorities alarmed. If SF wasn't fascinating enough to attract enough a flood of immigrants, it would be Detroit with queers.)
Mormons are also very big on conscious self control of all appetites and lusts in the service of long-term goals. They don't just say "smoking is bad, mmmkay", they don't smoke. (The tobacco lobby does not diagnose this as the disease of tobaccophobia and hold My Lungs, My Choice rallies.) I suspect that this is the actual reason the Mormons and queers are so allergic to each other: the Mormons tend toward a very low time preference (long planning horizon) and the queers a high time preference (live in the moment). It is almost a law of nature that someone with high time preference will throw a hissy fit when lectured on moral choice by someone with low time preference.
When an author's writing consistently expresses their personal philosophy as "The Right Thing", it is hard to draw a line between the two. I don't find it to be true of Card as much as say Heinlein but his politics are clearly visible in his work.
Maybe, maybe not. I do believe that fiction is not just a story, but also a peak into the author's mind. If her writing is trying to paint a picture that is obviously conflicting to what I know the author's beliefs on a topic actually are, it feels like I'm being lied to.
That doesn't mean an author can't experiment with their beliefs, though, and that is where it gets very subjective: do I feel like I'm being lied to or not?
I don't generally spend a lot of time learning about authors I read, though. They tend to exist in a similar space as their characters do in my mind: a place stitched together and colored by the words they have written.
That doesn't mean an author can't experiment with their beliefs, though, and that is where it gets very subjective: do I feel like I'm being lied to or not?
I don't generally spend a lot of time learning about authors I read, though. They tend to exist in a similar space as their characters do in my mind: a place stitched together and colored by the words they have written.
I could only get through half the interview because the interviewer was horrible and obviously quite biased in the beginning trying really hard (too hard) to portray Card in a certain light.
Thanks for the link, however the writer seems rather smugly superior over the (discovered to be) troglodyte she is interviewing.
Is that really true? The first Orwell book I read (Homage to Catalonia) was required for a history class -- a class that had previously assigned some truly awful literature. So I was pessimistic and I read it grudgingly at first. But halfway through the book, I realized I loved it.