Not enough foreigners applied for H1B visas this year, govt ran a second lottery(theregister.com)
theregister.com
Not enough foreigners applied for H1B visas this year, govt ran a second lottery
https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/14/h1b_second_lottery/
120 comments
Totally agree. USA was the default option in the 2000s but in 2020 there are a lot of competitive options for high skilled employment (including staying back in India). There seems to be lot more awareness in India about H1B issues and the impossibility of getting PR in the USA for indians.
> I mean it makes sense to me.
All the reasons you citied for why it makes sense were true in april of 2020 too when H1B was oversubscribed by multiple factors.
So how does it make sense to you?
Its not like indians were getting Green cards in 2 yrs in april.
Correct explanation imo is drop in outsourcing contracts due to pandemic. TCS, Wipro don't need h1b anymore.
https://infotechlead.com/bpo/infosys-reveals-some-clients-se...
All the reasons you citied for why it makes sense were true in april of 2020 too when H1B was oversubscribed by multiple factors.
So how does it make sense to you?
Its not like indians were getting Green cards in 2 yrs in april.
Correct explanation imo is drop in outsourcing contracts due to pandemic. TCS, Wipro don't need h1b anymore.
https://infotechlead.com/bpo/infosys-reveals-some-clients-se...
The vast majority of those H1Bs are obtained by outsourcing firms in India. Since it's a lottery, they file a massive pool of applications and send the ones who get picked.
Now since a H1B visa can't be issued if you're outside the USA (executive order), all those picked applications will be abandoned.
This is on top of another trend where EU and Canada are competing for high skilled immigrants and making it easier to move there.
Now since a H1B visa can't be issued if you're outside the USA (executive order), all those picked applications will be abandoned.
This is on top of another trend where EU and Canada are competing for high skilled immigrants and making it easier to move there.
I hope you do know that the Indian WITCH companies hire a lot of people from US on h1b. From what I heard, most of the companies such as Infosys stopped bringing people from India 1.5 to 2 years ago. One team I know has been hiring only US MS H1Bs at least since 2010. Its actually easier for them to hire foreign MS students straight out of US colleges, because they are desperate for h1b, than bringing someone from India. The MS graduate can be placed in projects right away, while it will take several months to bring someone from India. Many of these students will accept whatever salary they are offered if they are running out of OPT or whatever its called. So when you are seeing Infosys got x visas, that doesn't mean they are bringing x people from India. Probably half or more of them were h1bs hired in US - either students or h1bs who are changing jobs while in US.
Most of H-1Bs are indeed from AOS or COS process, however there are still 15% of consular processing applications according to the USCIS [1]. It's rational to assume that 15% of selected in the lottery were also consular processing and as they dropped out it would create ~13000 vacant spots (15% of 65K+20K total cap).
1. https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/reports/U...
1. https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/reports/U...
Agreed, I was speaking more to the general trend. The sharp fall off is probably some combination of reaction to the executive order and the pandemic itself making travel impossible. Though I think lesser people will immigrate in the future also, especially if remote work is embraced to a greater degree.
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This is clearly the main cause this year, but the lottery success rate has been climbing for several years due primarily to fewer applicants. I think this is probably a reaction to the political environment, along with the trump administration being actively hostile toward approving the visas that do make it through the lottery to the point they had to be sued over it.
> lottery success rate has been climbing for several years due primarily to fewer applicants.
Is this actually true? I found this on google
https://redbus2us.com/h1b-visa-cap-reach-dates-history-graph...
Looks like it actually skyrocketed after trump took office. Its the highest under his administration than any point in history.
Are you just trolling? If so, why?
Is this actually true? I found this on google
https://redbus2us.com/h1b-visa-cap-reach-dates-history-graph...
Looks like it actually skyrocketed after trump took office. Its the highest under his administration than any point in history.
Are you just trolling? If so, why?
Pretty much all our H1B employees from India are looking to move to Canada but our Canadian offices have run out of space. Ireland may be a good suggestion as well.
Add in visa free travel to all of Europe and it’s probably a great experience.
Add in visa free travel to all of Europe and it’s probably a great experience.
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The article says there was a record high number of applicants. But of those selected, too may abandoned their applications.
Bailing on a move to the US because of an unchecked pandemic certainly makes sense. I don't think this really fuels the American decline narrative any more than the unchecked pandemic itself does.
Bailing on a move to the US because of an unchecked pandemic certainly makes sense. I don't think this really fuels the American decline narrative any more than the unchecked pandemic itself does.
And I am guessing quite a few jobs were lost during this time period. So the companies might not have completed the application after being selected in the lottery.
Nothing could paint a clearer picture than this: America is no longer a place that smart people want to move to. Quite the opposite, in fact. I think that, regardless of how the election shapes up this year, next year will see an enormous uptick in the number of Americans emigrating to a country less burdened with problems of its own making.
Universities pay better in China, South Korea and Canada for professors to do research. I personally know people who moved out of United States after getting PhD and postdoc to those countries.
I am surprised to see Canada there. Jobs in tech in Canada pay lte half of the comps in US.
Between SK and China, SK's per capita income is not far off from US but China's is. I am surprised China is able to compete better than US purely on financial might.
Between SK and China, SK's per capita income is not far off from US but China's is. I am surprised China is able to compete better than US purely on financial might.
For Canada, its not always about comp. If you're Indian there is a 100+ year (projected) waitlist for US permanent residency. Chinese have a 5 year waitlist and every other nationality has no waitlist.
This means for the whole waiting period you need to be employed (in a job that's related to your degree) or you lose legal status.
Compare this to Canada where you arrive with permanent residency, have good healthcare and don't have to worry about losing your residence. Easier to put down roots.
The best deal is for those who earn their stock grants in the US and make a mid-career move to Canada. They start with a good asset base.
This means for the whole waiting period you need to be employed (in a job that's related to your degree) or you lose legal status.
Compare this to Canada where you arrive with permanent residency, have good healthcare and don't have to worry about losing your residence. Easier to put down roots.
The best deal is for those who earn their stock grants in the US and make a mid-career move to Canada. They start with a good asset base.
That is very specific to Indians. What percentage of them make up the people in unis/research? From your comment it seems like rest aren't that affected by this.
The stock grants in US ones definitely are better off, a lot of Europeans also use this and go back.
The stock grants in US ones definitely are better off, a lot of Europeans also use this and go back.
Majority of STEM grad students in the US are either from India or China. They are also the biggest pool of potential immigrants (2B+ combined population).
For Chinese, it's becoming more and more attractive to just stay back (current geopolitical tensions aren't helping).
If you're a EU citizen, grad school in the US is not that attractive comparitively unless you're specifically targeting a lab. Over there you have flexible options like doing a PhD through research projects at work (some govts even give you a subsidy for this). Full time grad students have decent benefits too.
For Chinese, it's becoming more and more attractive to just stay back (current geopolitical tensions aren't helping).
If you're a EU citizen, grad school in the US is not that attractive comparitively unless you're specifically targeting a lab. Over there you have flexible options like doing a PhD through research projects at work (some govts even give you a subsidy for this). Full time grad students have decent benefits too.
As far as I understand most of the Indian STEM(specially CS) students treat higher studies in US as a pathway to a job in US. I was asking as to how many eventually go into academia professionally.
For Chinese, I think there are a lot of other strong reasons to stay back. As I understand from the amount of research coming out of their unis in mainland, they seem to have improved a lot there. Also, R&D in some industries reaching on par to Western counterparts, with jobs paying quite well in big cities, so little reason for them to move away from their homeland.
For Chinese, I think there are a lot of other strong reasons to stay back. As I understand from the amount of research coming out of their unis in mainland, they seem to have improved a lot there. Also, R&D in some industries reaching on par to Western counterparts, with jobs paying quite well in big cities, so little reason for them to move away from their homeland.
It's definitely not all about compensation, and it's not just an industrial move away from the US. I personally chose to do my CS PhD studies in Canada rather than at (better funded, higher-status) American options, after leaving a US undergrad. Those other options would've been strongly preferable had it not been for my experience with US culture during undergrad; as it was, US culture made clear to me that staying there was out of the question.
More than a dozen of my friends who graduated at the same time did similarly, both those who went on to grad school and those who went into industry. This wasn't because there weren't options for us in the US — we all had choices. The honest truth is that, among those bright people I knew in undergrad, the large majority (Americans and international alike) were wholly disgusted by the US in recent years, and being unable to effect any change, they left the country.
More than a dozen of my friends who graduated at the same time did similarly, both those who went on to grad school and those who went into industry. This wasn't because there weren't options for us in the US — we all had choices. The honest truth is that, among those bright people I knew in undergrad, the large majority (Americans and international alike) were wholly disgusted by the US in recent years, and being unable to effect any change, they left the country.
Not everyone goes to be a professor at MIT or Harvard. State Universities actually don't pay good and it's hard to get tenure (literally have to wait for someone to get retired or die ...)
Just an anecdote, but within my friends, only those who work in tech are eager to move to US. My physics and math friends from college focused on research moved or like to move to other countries. The ones who I know that moved either have family in there, or are working in technician positions and are not really regarded as "the brightest" on our circle.
As for myself, I have avoided any position that requires me to move in the US. I take a substantial cut because of COL adjustments, but I'm not that interested FU money.
As for myself, I have avoided any position that requires me to move in the US. I take a substantial cut because of COL adjustments, but I'm not that interested FU money.
Yeah, I think the appeal for tech in US has been either on money/cutting edge stuff.
I think the cutting edge stuff is getting less pronounced now because of either global offices/remote or ease of access of resources anywhere.
I think the cutting edge stuff is getting less pronounced now because of either global offices/remote or ease of access of resources anywhere.
There is the uncertainty and high cost of living in the USA as well, so having a high salary isn't the big factor people always make it out to be.
If you make 1000000 but all of that does down the drain because the country you earn it in doesn't have common facilities available you end up with a pretty bad bottom line.
If you make 1000000 but all of that does down the drain because the country you earn it in doesn't have common facilities available you end up with a pretty bad bottom line.
> America is no longer a place that smart people want to move to.
It still is. you theory is that it suddenly stopped being that country suddenly from April of this year? Totally absurd logic. Check back how many ppl apply for h1b next year when pandemic is over.
It still is. you theory is that it suddenly stopped being that country suddenly from April of this year? Totally absurd logic. Check back how many ppl apply for h1b next year when pandemic is over.
Obviously this is a sample of size one, but growing up my dream was to move to the US. Now I wouldn't move there no matter what. Maybe for some absolutely stupid amount of money, but that's true of literally anywhere.
Edit: actually, it's a bit more than one - I have friends who work for SV companies in their London offices and they all rejected real offers to move to US(with an increase in pay) citing issues plaguing the country. My cousin had a transfer visa already arranged and ready and changed his mind for the same reason - US is just not an attractive country to move to. Or at least in my mind it's equal to Russia as a place to live in - I'd consider it for good money but it's not normally on my list because it seems like the systematic issues of the country are off putting.
Edit: actually, it's a bit more than one - I have friends who work for SV companies in their London offices and they all rejected real offers to move to US(with an increase in pay) citing issues plaguing the country. My cousin had a transfer visa already arranged and ready and changed his mind for the same reason - US is just not an attractive country to move to. Or at least in my mind it's equal to Russia as a place to live in - I'd consider it for good money but it's not normally on my list because it seems like the systematic issues of the country are off putting.
I think you're exaggerating a bit. The US has some drawbacks (like healthcare and a tendency to social conflict) but americans seem to be welcoming people and if you're in a high paid field, definitely the US offers way higher salaries.
If I was offered a good contract I won't lie, I would think about it, but it's still pretty attractive compared to anywhere else.
I don't see any reason to "not move no matter what". It's definitely in the top list of desirability. I'm pretty sure that I would have an easier time making friends and a life for myself in the US than in Germany or most northern-european countries, and if you're qualified enough you'll make decent money.
Now imagine you're a top IT guy in some poor country. Do you really think that it would be that difficult decision? It's easy to say "meh" when you live in Europe.
If I was offered a good contract I won't lie, I would think about it, but it's still pretty attractive compared to anywhere else.
I don't see any reason to "not move no matter what". It's definitely in the top list of desirability. I'm pretty sure that I would have an easier time making friends and a life for myself in the US than in Germany or most northern-european countries, and if you're qualified enough you'll make decent money.
Now imagine you're a top IT guy in some poor country. Do you really think that it would be that difficult decision? It's easy to say "meh" when you live in Europe.
The pros and cons vary significantly based in the nationality and skin color of the applicant.
>>It's easy to say "meh" when you live in Europe.
Well yes, obviously this was spoken from a perspective of a European so moving to US is not exactly appealing. But if you're from somewhere else then I can see how US would be at or near the top of your list.
Well yes, obviously this was spoken from a perspective of a European so moving to US is not exactly appealing. But if you're from somewhere else then I can see how US would be at or near the top of your list.
US is just not an attractive country to move to. Or at least in my mind it's equal to Russia as a place to live in
Come on. Really. Equal to Russia.
We're reaching levels of antiUS kneejerking that shouldn't be possible. On the upside, salaries here will grow, which is nice.
Come on. Really. Equal to Russia.
We're reaching levels of antiUS kneejerking that shouldn't be possible. On the upside, salaries here will grow, which is nice.
The key part that you have missed is "in my mind". I'm personally equally likely to move to either US or Russia, if I was offered enough money. And reasons why I wouldn't want to move to either are pretty similar - that's not me saying that the countries are the same.
I'm personally equally likely to move to either US or Russia
You've established a hierarchy and placed both countries at the same level, thus making them the same.
You've established a hierarchy and placed both countries at the same level, thus making them the same.
> Now I wouldn't move there no matter what. Maybe for some absolutely stupid amount of money.
:)
stupid amount of money , what would this be for you, compared to current amount of money you make?
> with an increase in pay
Maybe they were low balled. I will bet my house that they will move to SV in a heartbeat if they were paid what SV engineers get paid. Just wait till pandemic is over.
:)
stupid amount of money , what would this be for you, compared to current amount of money you make?
> with an increase in pay
Maybe they were low balled. I will bet my house that they will move to SV in a heartbeat if they were paid what SV engineers get paid. Just wait till pandemic is over.
I don't even know, I have everything I need, I honestly don't see or have a need to change a job for more money. If someone offered me 500k I'd obviously give it a serious consideration because that's "stupid amount of money", but even then I'd do it for a year or two and come back(I could get several houses for that amount of money here lol). But like I said, that's true of anywhere - offer me 500k and I'll work in North Korea for a bit.
>>. I will bet my house that they will move to SV in a heartbeat if they were paid what SV engineers get paid
I don't know, I have a friend who moved from a £50k/year job in UK to a $250k/year job in the US(SV) and he's currently planning to move back, he massively dislikes everything about working and living in the US. Money isn't everything. But of course, these are anecdotes.
>>. I will bet my house that they will move to SV in a heartbeat if they were paid what SV engineers get paid
I don't know, I have a friend who moved from a £50k/year job in UK to a $250k/year job in the US(SV) and he's currently planning to move back, he massively dislikes everything about working and living in the US. Money isn't everything. But of course, these are anecdotes.
> he's currently planning to move back
Tell me when he actually moves back :), i guarantee you that he is BS-ing.
All my indian friends always talk about "moving back" but we never do. Everyone knows that its BS but we let it slide.
remember all the celebreties that vowed to renounce their citizenship if trump is elected. Yep, they are still here. every one of them.
Tell me when he actually moves back :), i guarantee you that he is BS-ing.
All my indian friends always talk about "moving back" but we never do. Everyone knows that its BS but we let it slide.
remember all the celebreties that vowed to renounce their citizenship if trump is elected. Yep, they are still here. every one of them.
You seem to be actively discounting other people's opinions. Why not just accept that the US is no longer aligned with the interests of some (not all) skilled foreign workers. OP does seem to be open to discussions of increased compensation which seems to be one way to address the additional risk foreign workers have to manage in the US.
Heck I wouldn’t move to SV for any realistic amount of money I could make and I live in the southeast US.
Once you have “enough” you don’t have to make choices based on making more.
Once you have “enough” you don’t have to make choices based on making more.
so you are willing to work 20 yrs of your life in southeast of US vs working 10yrs in SV and retiring to wherever you want?
Have you heard the story of the Mexican fisherman?
You mean if I were hypothetically 27 years old, with a 3100 square foot house in the burbs where I am paying $2200/month mortgage, married with 2.1 kids, both my wife and I working and we are able to put one spouses entire salary toward long term goals, I could move to SV, work 10 years and move somewhere cheaper to buy the big house in the burbs so I could enjoy the nice laid back life that I already enjoy?
I was a lot older when that decision became a realistic possibility for me to pursue. But I made the same calculation. In hindsight, I’m glad I did. I chose to go down a road that allowed me to work remotely for BigTech. But I had no idea that I would fall into this position. I thought I would be working for a local consulting company at best when my youngest graduated.
You mean if I were hypothetically 27 years old, with a 3100 square foot house in the burbs where I am paying $2200/month mortgage, married with 2.1 kids, both my wife and I working and we are able to put one spouses entire salary toward long term goals, I could move to SV, work 10 years and move somewhere cheaper to buy the big house in the burbs so I could enjoy the nice laid back life that I already enjoy?
I was a lot older when that decision became a realistic possibility for me to pursue. But I made the same calculation. In hindsight, I’m glad I did. I chose to go down a road that allowed me to work remotely for BigTech. But I had no idea that I would fall into this position. I thought I would be working for a local consulting company at best when my youngest graduated.
Bingo. I have a house, two brand new cars, can afford holidays few times a year(and actually have the holiday allowance to go on them), growing savings, growing pension fund.....so why would I move to US and deal with all the BS of American life? To achieve exactly the same thing, but maybe with a slightly bigger house and a fancier car? I'll pass thanks.
> To achieve exactly the same thing,
Maybe you already live in a rich country. My savings went from ~20k to ~150k / yr (not counting investment market growth). I actually have a better lifestyle and vacations here, eg: I spent 2 weeks skiing this year in mid Jan in brekenridge, CO, something I couldn't even dream of in my home country.
So, yea if you are already from a rich country where a software dev can afford 2 brand new cars then it doesn't make sense. correct. "BS of American life" is a matter of perspective, to me america is heaven on earth.
Maybe you already live in a rich country. My savings went from ~20k to ~150k / yr (not counting investment market growth). I actually have a better lifestyle and vacations here, eg: I spent 2 weeks skiing this year in mid Jan in brekenridge, CO, something I couldn't even dream of in my home country.
So, yea if you are already from a rich country where a software dev can afford 2 brand new cars then it doesn't make sense. correct. "BS of American life" is a matter of perspective, to me america is heaven on earth.
We have two cars that sit in the garage now most of the time because we don’t go anywhere (Post Covid). We don’t buy lunch out, we don’t eat out, no gym memberships etc.
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Depends on the elections outcome, I guess.
> Nothing could paint a clearer picture than this: America is no longer a place that smart people want to move to
Poppycock.
That runs counter to the article's statement there were a record number of applications.
Something happened between the application deadline in early April & now, and that something is quite obviously COVID-19.
Poppycock.
That runs counter to the article's statement there were a record number of applications.
Something happened between the application deadline in early April & now, and that something is quite obviously COVID-19.
You don't think it had anything to do with the fact that there's a pandemic on?
If anything the pandemic is an even better indicator of US decline.
I don't think the decline narrative makes sense here. Most of the H1B applicants would have been from India, where the pandemic isn't any better controlled.
Well, there's no way that me, a white guy, would go to work for FAANG in Silicon Valley. An office abroad, sure, but not there.
so how would I go and apply for a visa then beyond the green card lottery? seems a great moment to get there. the situation will solve itself sooner or later and at that point you'd be in ahead of the frontline
First half of 2020 also a 6X increase in the number of Americans giving up their citizenship compared to the prior year.
heard the same thing in 2015
http://www.allgov.com/news/us-and-the-world/record-number-of...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-07/americans...
another one from 2017
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/10...
> compared to the prior year
why only compare it to previous year? Previous year was the lowest. ~450 compared to ~3500 in 2014.
Alternate headline from last year:
CNN: Record number of americans not giving up citizenship .A fall of 600% compared to Obama presidency.
http://www.allgov.com/news/us-and-the-world/record-number-of...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-07/americans...
another one from 2017
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/10...
> compared to the prior year
why only compare it to previous year? Previous year was the lowest. ~450 compared to ~3500 in 2014.
Alternate headline from last year:
CNN: Record number of americans not giving up citizenship .A fall of 600% compared to Obama presidency.
1. H1-B is time bound , 3yrs with 3 yr renewal
2. I may be wrong, but if you get H1 completely approved the clock starts ticking even if you are unable to travel to US
3. Looks like students\ppl already here picked up, and those coming from outside did not because in spite of having sponsor (a consulting company), they have to find job in pandemic job market and of course travel restrictions.
America is still the place smart people want to come.
edit: i would appreciate feedback while you downvote me, what the disagreement is.
2. I may be wrong, but if you get H1 completely approved the clock starts ticking even if you are unable to travel to US
3. Looks like students\ppl already here picked up, and those coming from outside did not because in spite of having sponsor (a consulting company), they have to find job in pandemic job market and of course travel restrictions.
America is still the place smart people want to come.
edit: i would appreciate feedback while you downvote me, what the disagreement is.
The title is slightly inaccurate. "Foreigners" do not submit H-1B petitions. Their sponsoring employers do. The fact that the numerical limit was not reached does not mean workers don't want to come to the US. It means that, in light of COVID, their employers no longer want them and so did not pursue the H-1B petition after it was selected.
I am an Indian who worked in US for 6+ years. Got frustrated with the h1b process and the way my employer treated me and left everything behind without even a job lined up in India. The last 1 year consisted of my GC application first stage getting denied, 3 months appeal, get i140, file h1b extension, get RFEd, cannot renew license for 3 months until I get the h1b again. Finally after an year of uncertainty, got my h1b for 3 more years, packed up and left the next month.
Even though I didn't have a job in India (didn't even look for one), I was completely in peace, no unending emotional pain with tears in my eyes, no stress, anxiety, no suicidal thoughts. Then one day my previous employer called me back, and I came back, because I cared for the project.
3 months later, homeland security (ICE) raided the office. Showed up suddenly, ordered us to stop everything we are doing, took all of us into a conference room. Wouldn't allow to even go for a bathroom break without them accompanying us. Questioned everyone. They were asking questions like 'are we paid enough, do we have any relatives in the office, am I staying alone or with other colleagues' and so on - the kind of things I see in twitter and other places where the anti h1b folks talk about us - that we all stay together because we don't get paid enough or nepotism and so on. The funny thing is even when I came back, I had no intention of staying in US for more than 3 years. I told the officers we are having a baby due in 2 months, and they are in India, hoping they would understand that I am there only for work, and has no intention to settle down. We didn't want the baby to be born in US and become a US citizen.
I look forward to an India were we won't have to rely on foreigners any more.
Even though I didn't have a job in India (didn't even look for one), I was completely in peace, no unending emotional pain with tears in my eyes, no stress, anxiety, no suicidal thoughts. Then one day my previous employer called me back, and I came back, because I cared for the project.
3 months later, homeland security (ICE) raided the office. Showed up suddenly, ordered us to stop everything we are doing, took all of us into a conference room. Wouldn't allow to even go for a bathroom break without them accompanying us. Questioned everyone. They were asking questions like 'are we paid enough, do we have any relatives in the office, am I staying alone or with other colleagues' and so on - the kind of things I see in twitter and other places where the anti h1b folks talk about us - that we all stay together because we don't get paid enough or nepotism and so on. The funny thing is even when I came back, I had no intention of staying in US for more than 3 years. I told the officers we are having a baby due in 2 months, and they are in India, hoping they would understand that I am there only for work, and has no intention to settle down. We didn't want the baby to be born in US and become a US citizen.
I look forward to an India were we won't have to rely on foreigners any more.
The amount of hatred towards America in this circle is astonishing, and the schadenfreude just feels like a drug. I honestly don't understand, I keep trying to imagine how it would feel if people were like that towards my country.
In the Netherlands we have a saying 'high trees catch a lot of wind'
It's the best known country in the world. It's the most famous one. As a result chances are for a lot of people on this planet the people they admire the most and the people they despise the most will contain a lot of Americans.
I'm from the Netherlands. When we elect an idiot he falls of a skateboard and says something stupid. When Americans elect an idiot a country gets bombed or the world economy almost collapses.
It's too easy for the rest of the west to put all blame on the US. On the other hand: to be the leader of the free world was the ambition of the US for a long time. That does come with more responsibility.
If they dont want to carry all that responsibility by themselves one of the things that has got to go too is the American Exceptionalism. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The position came with both responsibilities and privileges.
And maybe it would be nice to a formal letter of resignation in that case.
It's the best known country in the world. It's the most famous one. As a result chances are for a lot of people on this planet the people they admire the most and the people they despise the most will contain a lot of Americans.
I'm from the Netherlands. When we elect an idiot he falls of a skateboard and says something stupid. When Americans elect an idiot a country gets bombed or the world economy almost collapses.
It's too easy for the rest of the west to put all blame on the US. On the other hand: to be the leader of the free world was the ambition of the US for a long time. That does come with more responsibility.
If they dont want to carry all that responsibility by themselves one of the things that has got to go too is the American Exceptionalism. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The position came with both responsibilities and privileges.
And maybe it would be nice to a formal letter of resignation in that case.
As an American who previously lived outside the US for several years, I cannot emphasize enough how deeply ingrained American Exceptionalism is throughout every aspect of American life and politics, yet how oblivious most Americans are to it.
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It's not hatred, it's exasperation and incredulity. People didn't expect the USA to basically give up on a pandemic response because it was too inconvenient.
Americans got the government they wanted. They didn't vote for competence, they voted for malice and dysfunction.
Give up? Did Sweden give up on a pandemic response as well?
Even if taking the loss is a right choice, I think it's fair to characterize it as giving up, as compared to the alternative of fighting to contain the disease at all costs which some countries are still trying.
Part of it is that US immigration policy of late has deliberately been to make the US less appealing so fewer people immigrate. A natural consequence of that is people start saying "Wow, the US is less appealing."
Classifying it as "hatred" seems too extreme. If you quit a job, does that mean you hate that employer? Or do you just not want to work there anymore?
Classifying it as "hatred" seems too extreme. If you quit a job, does that mean you hate that employer? Or do you just not want to work there anymore?
I think much of the hatred you're seeing comes from Americans, who are frustrated and lashing out because the country won't implement the pandemic control policies they'd like. Most non-Americans I know understand it's cruel and unhelpful to say "hah, you guys have a deadly disease spreading! what idiots!"
To be honest, I don't think americans know what they have. I totally understand wanting to get even better and fixing all the stuff that's broken in american society! But the self hatred and continuous bashing is almost annoying at this point. I mean it's crazy to see in this thread some who actually believe H1Bs are down because people don't want to live in the US anymore. It's completely detached from the reality where hundreds of millions, or even billions would do a lot to have the opportunity to move to the US. It really comes from a position of privilege in my opinion.
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I was born and raised in the US. I see the same type of dog whistle politics coming from politicians toward immigrants that you saw toward my race (Black), going back to the “Willie Horton” ads and before that, “you didn’t get the job because a minority took it”. Even before that the “Southern Strategy”. Why would anyone want to come here when there are other countries that are more welcoming and that have a functional government and health care system?
If you think toxic race politics or major parties hating on immigrants are unique to the US, you're not getting a complete picture of life in other countries.
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Oikophobia describes this phenomena perfectly
The parable of the fox and the grapes?
dominotw(1)
Other people in this thread have mentioned the pandemic, but I'd argue the highly publicised Black Lives Matter protests are having a big effect in pushing away foreigners as well.
H1B is screwing generations of US tech workers, and dampening STEM initiatives which is really going to hurt the economy later when we need skilled labor and innovation at another scale.
We need to hire and train US. Anyone can learn the skills, why are we rewarding education in other countries? Why are we drowning a hot job market and neutering the innovation industry?
We need to hire and train US. Anyone can learn the skills, why are we rewarding education in other countries? Why are we drowning a hot job market and neutering the innovation industry?
Agree 100%. The reason is that the big tech contractors hire legions of H1-B visa holders (and lobbyists to protect the H1-B program). These workers are paid less than Americans and are tightly bound to their employer-- they risking losing their US status and will eventually be deported if they lose their jobs. Its another way corporate America uses the political system to abuse American workers, create a compliant workforce that can't easily get hired away. It limits opportunity here.
That's a nice fantasy, but the intended usage of H1-B is still in effect: there are plenty of americans that simply do not have the skill for the job, or that do not want to do the job.
Of course the system gets abused, that's par for the course in the united states with all the lobbying. But that doesn't mean that a company is going to suddenly use non-existent local workforce to do the job. At the same time, if it really was just displacing locals for profit, that same could probably be done by just moving an entire department out of the country.
There is only one real way to resolve it effectively: be the better option.
If you are trying to apply some weird protectionism construction instead of simply being the best option, it just ends up hurting everyone.
Of course the system gets abused, that's par for the course in the united states with all the lobbying. But that doesn't mean that a company is going to suddenly use non-existent local workforce to do the job. At the same time, if it really was just displacing locals for profit, that same could probably be done by just moving an entire department out of the country.
There is only one real way to resolve it effectively: be the better option.
If you are trying to apply some weird protectionism construction instead of simply being the best option, it just ends up hurting everyone.
They will want to do the job if it pays better. Others will want to go to school to earn the skills. It's just supply and demand. It strikes me as silly that it's next to impossible for an average STEM grad in the US to actually pass the interview process at most of our largest tech companies. Why are they here then, other than to drive up the cost of SV real estate.
Why would offshoring the department hurt everyone though? Does "everyone" only count US residents?
Why would offshoring the department hurt everyone though? Does "everyone" only count US residents?
> if it pays better
That's just trying to compare skilled people to unskilled labour workers. That's not how it works (unless you count counter-productive enterprise setups).
If you were to make such a comparison you'd have to take all of the non-technical parameters in to account:
- communication
- culture
- values
- productivity
- intrinsic motivation
- team fit
Those would pretty much remove most of the 'canned workers' people seem to point to from the conversation, as well as most of the enterprise 'consultants' and the like (i.e. Deloitte)
If you want to include them, you would have to set the bar much lower, but then you also should make sure that the provisioning that government program for visas explicitly mentions that. At the same time, the 'interview process' is just bad as far as I've heard and experienced. 90% of the people you interact with and the activities you attend have nothing to do with the actual work or work context. At the same time, those kids that did some school work and now think they instantly get a job that happens to use the same words in their postings as the words they used to label their classes simply have a disconnect between theory and reality. But that's more of a general American thing than purely college-to-job flows being bad.
If you were to make such a comparison you'd have to take all of the non-technical parameters in to account:
- communication
- culture
- values
- productivity
- intrinsic motivation
- team fit
Those would pretty much remove most of the 'canned workers' people seem to point to from the conversation, as well as most of the enterprise 'consultants' and the like (i.e. Deloitte)
If you want to include them, you would have to set the bar much lower, but then you also should make sure that the provisioning that government program for visas explicitly mentions that. At the same time, the 'interview process' is just bad as far as I've heard and experienced. 90% of the people you interact with and the activities you attend have nothing to do with the actual work or work context. At the same time, those kids that did some school work and now think they instantly get a job that happens to use the same words in their postings as the words they used to label their classes simply have a disconnect between theory and reality. But that's more of a general American thing than purely college-to-job flows being bad.
I teach at a University. Our grads in CS and engineering certainly do flow directly to jobs. But not FAANG except a few. Either way though, and despite what college-dropout CEO's may think, our universities actually do teach our students what they need to know for their job description. If you are curious how well they know the topic, check their grades. We tested them thoroughally already. Normal human interviews consist of chats with the candidate to discuss projects they worked on and their interests.
In the defense industry they can't hire internationals. Not coincidentally, this how interviews at those companies mostly go. And they plan for a lot of training of new hires to boot. Needing a hire to be productive their first day is a necessity for startups, not massive companies like Apple/Amazon/Intel/etc. They're just being cheap.
In the defense industry they can't hire internationals. Not coincidentally, this how interviews at those companies mostly go. And they plan for a lot of training of new hires to boot. Needing a hire to be productive their first day is a necessity for startups, not massive companies like Apple/Amazon/Intel/etc. They're just being cheap.
And that's why the silly methods for the FAANGS don't work (I think I described those, not the more normal organisations -- but that's not what the visas target or are being lobbied for AFAIK). Or perhaps they do work, but simply not as an entrance for students. The FAANG postings are still worded similar to the more 'normal' jobs, but are very different.
Replying to myself: maybe that is working as intended for them, keep new people out and filter for those who can withstand meaningless grind during their work?
> be the better option
When I say jump you say how high!
When I say jump you say how high!
Agreed. Facing layoffs at my current employer, have found it tough to land a new job. There is no "skills shortage", just a desire for cheap labor.
It shows you have no clue about the system. In my medium-size company, good luck finding an American to be a system support engineer or be on the call late night when things go wrong. The company will go bankrupt. America relies on cheap foreign workers in every aspect of society.
Why do I care about the welfare of a company that wouldn't pay me enough to be a support engineer?
That's a great point. I agree. But it's an unfortunate reality.
I'd be willing to be on call late at night, and/or be a systems support engineer, but the pay needs to be commensurate
What are the chances that your company doesn’t pay enough to make it worth it? I know that the major cloud providers pay Technical Account Managers or the equivalent enough to get Americans to be at an enterprise’s beckon call day or night.
You can’t tell me that you couldn’t get a qualified Americans for 70% of what the major cloud providers pay.
You can’t tell me that you couldn’t get a qualified Americans for 70% of what the major cloud providers pay.
Agree. H1B goes to some sketchy companies and for jobs that replace Americans. The lottery is the culprit here. Companies that face skills shortage don't get enough H1Bs.
Many H1Bs like myself were educated at taxpayer expense in their native countries. US essentially gets them for free to help fuel silicon valley and other tech hubs.
Skills shortage is real. If you are in a position to hire people, you would understand. You can't train people to perform at a silicon valley interview level no matter how much money you pour into training courses. Proper education from a university is needed to clear the high bar for most people. Free college education like in government run colleges in India would solve some of the skills shortage.
Many H1Bs like myself were educated at taxpayer expense in their native countries. US essentially gets them for free to help fuel silicon valley and other tech hubs.
Skills shortage is real. If you are in a position to hire people, you would understand. You can't train people to perform at a silicon valley interview level no matter how much money you pour into training courses. Proper education from a university is needed to clear the high bar for most people. Free college education like in government run colleges in India would solve some of the skills shortage.
Talent shortage is real, but it's not because people can pass the SV interviews. Blind is full of stories of people who go on to work at a FAANG after a few months of LC. Proper education has nothing to do with it - the way hiring is done by them has been cracked years ago (there are even books about it). It's because most companies don't like to train and they want to pay pennies to new engineers.
I am an immigrant myself, but I don't think the US gets anything for free when it gets an educated H1B. It's a trade off, you get more opportunities than any other country can give you. It's up to you to be able to identify them.
H1B fraud is pervasive at this point and it needs a major reform. I have friends who work in immigration and it's obvious that some schools in India (JNTU for instance) are diploma mills that teaches nothing and ends up with people who should never have a degree to begin with. They exist just to ship people to the US through networking. Then there is the fraud where people from different countries come do their masters at Maharishi International University (or similar) and, once again,study nothing and get a degree. Finally the cherry on top is a lot of the people who were in H1Bs become rich by creating staffing companies bringing more H1Bs and paying them pennies. The government only does a bit of enforcement really. One of the few good things Trump did was to enforce the rules more.
Most H1Bs need a lot of training to be productive. I have worked with many. The H1B program - when it comes to STEM - was created to bring very educated people (think top universities with good grades, IIT and similar). Unfortunately, the many who should not have gotten one in the first place, create the problems for the ones who should truly qualify to get an H1B.
I am an immigrant myself, but I don't think the US gets anything for free when it gets an educated H1B. It's a trade off, you get more opportunities than any other country can give you. It's up to you to be able to identify them.
H1B fraud is pervasive at this point and it needs a major reform. I have friends who work in immigration and it's obvious that some schools in India (JNTU for instance) are diploma mills that teaches nothing and ends up with people who should never have a degree to begin with. They exist just to ship people to the US through networking. Then there is the fraud where people from different countries come do their masters at Maharishi International University (or similar) and, once again,study nothing and get a degree. Finally the cherry on top is a lot of the people who were in H1Bs become rich by creating staffing companies bringing more H1Bs and paying them pennies. The government only does a bit of enforcement really. One of the few good things Trump did was to enforce the rules more.
Most H1Bs need a lot of training to be productive. I have worked with many. The H1B program - when it comes to STEM - was created to bring very educated people (think top universities with good grades, IIT and similar). Unfortunately, the many who should not have gotten one in the first place, create the problems for the ones who should truly qualify to get an H1B.
There’s no skills shortage. Just an unwillingness to take a risk on someone outside the normal profile.
I’ve done interviews where we passed on a candidate who’d be educated and onboarded within 1.5 years. Except nobody wanted to take that risk as we’d rather hire the person who can start today.
If there was no h1b program, we’d of hired that American and trained them.
I’ve done interviews where we passed on a candidate who’d be educated and onboarded within 1.5 years. Except nobody wanted to take that risk as we’d rather hire the person who can start today.
If there was no h1b program, we’d of hired that American and trained them.
And as soon as that person got trained, they would jump ship.
What skills shortage have you witnessed?
I am an immigrant and I work in tech, if you are an American who can do what I do then based on my interview experiences, you ll have no trouble finding jobs in the tech industry. No advanced degrees required. Immigrants on my team work hand in hand with Americans to do great work and we believe in the value an individual provides not where they come from.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the USA, but your towns and cities are full of rule-followers doing herd-passive-aggressive self-enforcement, and live-and-let-live is a rare feeling. The article is right, it's probably corona and other issues causing the shortfall, but having watched your guy bringing that undercurrent of nastiness out into the open, is anyone actually surprised by this?
I moved from Nicaragua to Mexico before Corona, and I'm waiting it out here: I was so surprised by this place (and by Nica before it).
There surely is a lot of asylum woe on the border, but I can't really believe anyone would want to leave here and go there, and nor can any of the other delightful cultured sweet kind and wonderful "bad hombres" who live here.
I moved from Nicaragua to Mexico before Corona, and I'm waiting it out here: I was so surprised by this place (and by Nica before it).
There surely is a lot of asylum woe on the border, but I can't really believe anyone would want to leave here and go there, and nor can any of the other delightful cultured sweet kind and wonderful "bad hombres" who live here.
> your towns and cities are full of rule-followers doing herd-passive-aggressive self-enforcement, and live-and-let-live is a rare feeling
Can you give examples of what you mean by that? I've been living in the US (Seattle area) for over 7 years and haven't felt that at all.
Can you give examples of what you mean by that? I've been living in the US (Seattle area) for over 7 years and haven't felt that at all.
OK, seattle; Washington State is one of my favorite places. I'm african, I didn't think twice: I mistakenly walked out of the bar with my beer in my hand, to fetch something from the car.
The ten minute fiasco that followed, during which I was not permitted to re-enter the bar with my beer, but not permitted to put my beer in the trash can, nor permitted to "finish it" and throw the can away, I had to "pass it over the line" with outstreched arms, as though it was radioactive.
(edit: mis-remembered. I actually had to pass it over the wall that surrounded the entrance, not over the entranceway itself. Maybe that's part of the rules).
There were no cops on the scene, but I FELT we were on the verge of someone calling nine-fucking-one-one.
In order to re-enter the pub (closest to my airbnb), I had to "ask forgiveness", and I was "lucky enough" to have it bestowed on me.
Honestly I felt like a forty year old child.
The ten minute fiasco that followed, during which I was not permitted to re-enter the bar with my beer, but not permitted to put my beer in the trash can, nor permitted to "finish it" and throw the can away, I had to "pass it over the line" with outstreched arms, as though it was radioactive.
(edit: mis-remembered. I actually had to pass it over the wall that surrounded the entrance, not over the entranceway itself. Maybe that's part of the rules).
There were no cops on the scene, but I FELT we were on the verge of someone calling nine-fucking-one-one.
In order to re-enter the pub (closest to my airbnb), I had to "ask forgiveness", and I was "lucky enough" to have it bestowed on me.
Honestly I felt like a forty year old child.
The thing I confabulated this with, was a memory of a TSA agent and I, exchanging a "forbidden" item. That was also really weird, though I kind of get why the overreaction exists; surely someone in an airport somewhere's died of a keychain-pocket-knife before.
San-Francisco. My group's eating a (fairly pricy) pizza. I step outside for a smoke. I'm respectful; I roll small cigs from sweet tobacco, and I stand downwind and apart.
A woman (passerby) approaches me, and asks if I could please step into the street with "that thing".
I do so. She walks on.
A woman (passerby) approaches me, and asks if I could please step into the street with "that thing".
I do so. She walks on.
(Looks like your comments were being rate limited. Sorry! That's based on past abuses by other users, not you. I've marked your account legit to fix this.)
Downtown Redmond restaurant/bar: a chap stands a the entrance, right foot outside, left foot inside. Smoke in his right hand, beer in his left. Sticks his head out the door for a puff, sticks his head in the door for a sip.
The smoke blowing back into the restaurant was terrible (and I'm a smoker). But the rule-lady didn't mind: as long as the beer is here, and the smoke is there.
The smoke blowing back into the restaurant was terrible (and I'm a smoker). But the rule-lady didn't mind: as long as the beer is here, and the smoke is there.
I don't see how this one fits. Were you the busy-body who wanted rules enforced in this story?
Generally cities are a hassle everywhere, with some exceptions. Have you been to New Orleans? Generally in the US, people who want to be left alone don't go downtown.
Generally cities are a hassle everywhere, with some exceptions. Have you been to New Orleans? Generally in the US, people who want to be left alone don't go downtown.
Does the US have a points based visa system?
US permanent visa (green card) system is primarily family oriented (immediate relatives of US citizens). US hands out a million green cards a year but only ~140K is for employment. Even that slice doesn't have any kind of points based prioritization.
It does not. In general, visa holders can't be sure they'll get one until it's in their hand.
No. One was drafted in 2013 by Obama but it never made it to a vote in Congress.
It was passed by the Senate with 68 votes (a filibuster proof majority). Republican xenophobia in the House led to it never being allowed a vote. It would’ve passed the House without question had it been allowed a vote.
Why was it shot down? In practice it should limit immigration and the people that make it should generally be the kind of people you want to attract: highly educated, skilled, etc.
If you meant akin to Japan, Australia. No.
Did they legally have to "reach the numerical allocations"?
Or is it that H1B employers have enough of a powerful lobby that USCIS had no choice?
(since I assume current administration would've been content with under-utilization this year).
Or is it that H1B employers have enough of a powerful lobby that USCIS had no choice?
(since I assume current administration would've been content with under-utilization this year).
Yeah. This has been done before.
The law actually requires that visa applications be denied once the numerical limit is reached.
So, no, USCIS cannot legally start denying visa applications (on grounds of the limit being reached) until the numerical limit has been reached.
It’s actually an absurd and cruel thing that there is even such a ridiculous numerical limit, and one that is extremely small in per capita terms.
Most developed countries don’t have such limits. Both Canada and Australia granted more visa applications than the US.
The numerical limit (along with other restrictions) has resulted in a lottery, which in turn led to many people who studied in the US getting effectively deported (as they had no way to stay without a work visa). People with a PhD from Harvard and MIT with a $250k+ jobs (or job offers) have gotten deported because of the absurd numerical limit on H-1B visas.
Your idiotic opinions on immigration come across as grossly xenophobic. Since Trump got elected people have been getting denied for absurd joke reasons. I myself was denied a $200k+ job and had to leave / got effectively deported from the US. And I am someone who has spent over 10 years in the US on visas. I’m sure you’ll celebrate my suffering.
So, no, USCIS cannot legally start denying visa applications (on grounds of the limit being reached) until the numerical limit has been reached.
It’s actually an absurd and cruel thing that there is even such a ridiculous numerical limit, and one that is extremely small in per capita terms.
Most developed countries don’t have such limits. Both Canada and Australia granted more visa applications than the US.
The numerical limit (along with other restrictions) has resulted in a lottery, which in turn led to many people who studied in the US getting effectively deported (as they had no way to stay without a work visa). People with a PhD from Harvard and MIT with a $250k+ jobs (or job offers) have gotten deported because of the absurd numerical limit on H-1B visas.
Your idiotic opinions on immigration come across as grossly xenophobic. Since Trump got elected people have been getting denied for absurd joke reasons. I myself was denied a $200k+ job and had to leave / got effectively deported from the US. And I am someone who has spent over 10 years in the US on visas. I’m sure you’ll celebrate my suffering.
A lot of my friends who did their masters in the US are trying to move out as well due to the visa process. You can't live forever on a H1B. Canada seems to be the country of choice for those moving out. Money can only go so far, you need peace of mind. You can't build your life on a temporary foundation.
Also one other recent phenomenon is that you can make boatload of money staying in India and working for a startup. So the incentive to go to the US is lesser atleast for the cream of the talent from the top universities.