Why O'Reilly Media doesn't use DRM(forbes.com)
forbes.com
Why O'Reilly Media doesn't use DRM
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2011/0411/focus-tim-oreilly-media-e-book-antipiracy-steal-this.html
17 comments
The ebook revenue is nearly 100% profit; the marginal cost of selling ebooks has got to be near zero. So if more people buy ebook "upgrades" by falsely claiming they bought the book, that's better for O'Reilly than making them prove it.
Are you kidding? Once more ppl get to know about the $5 books, OR will have to start verifying ownership or take a huge hit on sales.
No DRM? What are they talking about. As a "Safari Books Online by O'Reilly" subscriber I'm constantly confounded by annoying "features" that seem to have almost no purpose but to prevent you from copying anything from the online versions (like code sections). While it's not technically blocked or prohibited, these features sure don't seem to be there to enhance online reading.
No DRM on ebooks, that is.
I agree that Safari's usefulness is severely hampered by the copy-protection methods (I used to use it as a free service through my university library). Unfortunately, as a subscription service O'Reilly has stronger incentives to use DRM because if it was easy to copy content from books, you could sign up for one month, copy everything you wanted, and then cancel your subscription.
I agree that Safari's usefulness is severely hampered by the copy-protection methods (I used to use it as a free service through my university library). Unfortunately, as a subscription service O'Reilly has stronger incentives to use DRM because if it was easy to copy content from books, you could sign up for one month, copy everything you wanted, and then cancel your subscription.
Keep in mind that 1)Safari Books is a separate operating unit from the main O'Reilly publishing and that 2) a majority of th books on Safari aren't owned/published by O'Reilly. I'm sure some of the security measures are a result of Microsoft, Addison-Wesley, etc. allowing their books to be in Safari.
I bought 98% of my ebooks from B&N because they allow to download them in ePub. I've also removed the DRM from all of them, not to share them, I haven't shared one single ebook yet, but to have them open and readable from every other reader.
Tim O'Reilly perfectly got the point.
This is my first message here (sent from my CR-48 with Verizon :)), Hacker News is a great community, I also read you guys on my iPhone, keep working hard!
This is my first message here (sent from my CR-48 with Verizon :)), Hacker News is a great community, I also read you guys on my iPhone, keep working hard!
To be fair, the vast majority of people who live in a First World country and who have an interest in getting an O’Reilly ebook also have the means to easily pay for one—or to put it on their employer’s expense account.
I think you may be underestimating the number of poor students in the First World.
Forbes article is abridged. Full interview here:
http://blogs.forbes.com/jonbruner/2011/03/25/tim-oreilly-on-...
Yes, this version is significantly better.
I recently took advantage of the Borders bankruptcy to snag several o'reilly hard copies at 40% off. I've always loved having the hardcopies. Even with 2 big monitors there's always enough shit vying for screen real-estate.
Another factor that makes O'Reilly different: Lots of their customers are open source / Linux users, who are usually opposed to drm, have the technical knowledge to break drm, and are used to standing up for what they believe to be digital rights.
This means if they used DRM, it would likely be broken, openly, by their target users
This means if they used DRM, it would likely be broken, openly, by their target users
I always wonder, when people say they don't mind about piracy, what part of it is genuine, and what part of it is pandering.
Do they really mean what they say? Or do they secretly hope there would be no way to pirate their products?
Do they really mean what they say? Or do they secretly hope there would be no way to pirate their products?
Tim is an absolute straight-shooter. He's not pandering and he's not playing games. That's the way they think. (An old co-worker of mine is his right-hand man, running the book publishing business.)
"People who don't pay you generally wouldn't have paid you anyway."
That and other quotes. Man, I'm so glad were finally said by someone who won't be written off as a hippy, communist, hacker, etc.
That and other quotes. Man, I'm so glad were finally said by someone who won't be written off as a hippy, communist, hacker, etc.
Follow the link to the unabridged version, that official version cut a lot of interesting stuff.
Wow, this guy is such a level-headed guy...or at least it seems that way, his outlook is great.
Seems like whenever there is a no-drm success and they are interviewed it is EXACTLY the same argument/story:
1) If 10,000 people will buy my X I will have sold 10,000. I will not have sold more since nobody else was willing to pay.
2) If 100,000 people also pirated my X then potentially a few of them would like it and either buy it, or buy a future product from me, which translates into more sales.
3) Once my X is hacked it is hacked for good (or something to that extent) and people pirating have no problems with DRM while people who legitimately bought X have to deal with DRM.
4) DRM can cost me sales just as piracy could.
1) If 10,000 people will buy my X I will have sold 10,000. I will not have sold more since nobody else was willing to pay.
2) If 100,000 people also pirated my X then potentially a few of them would like it and either buy it, or buy a future product from me, which translates into more sales.
3) Once my X is hacked it is hacked for good (or something to that extent) and people pirating have no problems with DRM while people who legitimately bought X have to deal with DRM.
4) DRM can cost me sales just as piracy could.
None of the DRM-related revelations in the article should be overly shocking to the HN crowd. For me, the most interesting nugget of info was that e-books now account for a quarter of O'Reilly's revenue. (top of the second page)
Of course, but this is printed in Forbes. The more that the non-tech crowed sees that publishers can succeed without customer-screwing DRM, the better chance other publishers will follow suit.
I know, I guess I was just pointing out that this was hardly news for hackers, and potentially saving others the time of reading all of it, looking for the newsworthy bits.
Of course, they put your name & other info on every page of the PDF generated for you. That probably works as a general "shaming" mechanism, such that most folks won't share indiscriminately.
Which is the right way to discourage large-scale piracy.
If I put my copy of an O'Reilly ebook online for anyone to grab, it's obvious the copy floating around is mine and I'm a jerk. But I can still give a copy of the PDF to a few friends and encourage them to buy a copy if they like it.
And, there's absolutely no way this is going to somehow bone me in the future. The authentication server isn't going to go down, it's not going to mistakenly think I lent out my "last copy" or lock me out of my purchase because I don't have internet access.
If I put my copy of an O'Reilly ebook online for anyone to grab, it's obvious the copy floating around is mine and I'm a jerk. But I can still give a copy of the PDF to a few friends and encourage them to buy a copy if they like it.
And, there's absolutely no way this is going to somehow bone me in the future. The authentication server isn't going to go down, it's not going to mistakenly think I lent out my "last copy" or lock me out of my purchase because I don't have internet access.
I wonder if there's any legal precedent for a friend being the jerk in a scenario like this. "Friend" uploads ebook/music track/magazine I bought and "lent" him/her to file sharing site or whatever. It's my name in there, so I'm going to be the one who's going to be sued.
In other words, giving your book to somebody in good faith but the person then pirates it will cost you $300'000 (or at least it did in this case with Caridi and DVD screeners).
In other words, you better not share, unless you've got a lot of money laying around...
In other words, you better not share, unless you've got a lot of money laying around...
Interesting. Pre-release screener copies, which you're presumably not even allowed to show friends, would seem like a different kettle of fish than files which are publicly available for purchase.
Sure there's a way this could somehow bone you in the future-- if one of those "friends" you loan the copy to decides to put it online for everyone to grab, everyone thinks you seeded it, and suddenly, you're a jerk.
The jerkiness of your friends is transitive in many other contexts as well, so I don't think this is a problem with this technique in particular.
O'Reilly doesn't seem to do that, unless it's embedded in the PDF in a way which doesn't show up in simple viewers.
Pragmatic Bookshelf, Manning and Packt (out of the e-books I have handy for quick checking) do put your name/address on the bottom of every page to discourage piracy.
Edit: Specifics for each publisher, for anyone who's curious:
Pragmatic Bookshelf, Manning and Packt (out of the e-books I have handy for quick checking) do put your name/address on the bottom of every page to discourage piracy.
Edit: Specifics for each publisher, for anyone who's curious:
Manning - Name and email address on each page
Pragmatic Bookshelf - Name on each page
Packt - Name, physical address and purchase date on each pageMy pre-release copy of Javascript: The Definitive Reference (perhaps because it's pre-release) does have personalization on every page.
The other (regular, relased) books from ORA don't.
The other (regular, relased) books from ORA don't.
Downloads from O'Reilly's Safari Bookshelf, at least those in PDF format, have the account holder's name at the bottom of each page. If that's changed, it must have happened recently.
The digital versions of the German c't magazine (archives and iPad version) have similar visible and possibly some invisible watermarking features. Music downloaded from iTunes has your name in the Metadata. Personally, I'm fine with this, but then I was never going to offer the files on Bittorrent or whatever. I don't think you could have any serious moral qualms with this kind of soft DRM.
I certainly do share music with my girlfriend, which presumably is considered piracy by the RIAA, etc., along with ripping the CDs I bought before DRM-free music was widely available.
I certainly do share music with my girlfriend, which presumably is considered piracy by the RIAA, etc., along with ripping the CDs I bought before DRM-free music was widely available.
Maybe there is a misunderstanding in the services proposed by O'Reilley Media. On their eBooks offer (available via their main website - oreilly.com), They don't put your name or any other info on the purchased eBooks. There are no DRMs and you can get the books in many format. That's the services mentioned in the Forbes article.
The "Safari Books Online" is another services with many DRM-like techniques but this was a previous services where O'Reilley Media is member along with other book editors. I used it in the past but that was a pain to use it.
I suppose O'Reilly now focus on the first service only as this is the one generating revenue without DRMs or watermarking techniques or additional limitations. I buy much more from their non-DRM offer (it's convenient, low-cost and many formats are available).
The "Safari Books Online" is another services with many DRM-like techniques but this was a previous services where O'Reilley Media is member along with other book editors. I used it in the past but that was a pain to use it.
I suppose O'Reilly now focus on the first service only as this is the one generating revenue without DRMs or watermarking techniques or additional limitations. I buy much more from their non-DRM offer (it's convenient, low-cost and many formats are available).
Tim gets it. Those who can pay, will.
Those who can't pay, this time: 1) benefit from the information and 2) may pay for a book in the future when they can afford it. 10k in circulation is free advertising, to some extent.
Those who can't pay, this time: 1) benefit from the information and 2) may pay for a book in the future when they can afford it. 10k in circulation is free advertising, to some extent.
I'm really gratified that the guy who once wrote, "Obscurity is a far greater threat to authors and creative artists than piracy" has built his business successfully on this same principle.
I agree. I wrote a book for O'Reilly and it has sold well, but I know that there are people out there with pirate copies of the eBook (perhaps there are lots), and although I'm happy to receive money from people two factors play together: I make hardly anything from the book (author royalties are small and compared to the effort, 6 months full time work, insignificant) and I'm much happier when someone reads it and likes the book then when I receive money for the book.
Initially, I was freaked out by all these copies on file sharing sites. Now, I just ignore it.
Initially, I was freaked out by all these copies on file sharing sites. Now, I just ignore it.
And sometimes, those ebooks dont exist for a physical copy. At least in the computer related fields, a physical book is good when the electricity is down, and a ebook is good for grep.
Yes, I am a "pirate" if by that you mean I havent paid twice: one for physical and one for digital. And dont get me started on DRM....
Yes, I am a "pirate" if by that you mean I havent paid twice: one for physical and one for digital. And dont get me started on DRM....
It appears that musician Martin Atkins had the same opinion. "It's not a problem if 20,000 people 'illegally' download your music. It's a problem if they don't."
http://leisureblogs.chicagotribune.com/turn_it_up/2011/03/sx...
http://leisureblogs.chicagotribune.com/turn_it_up/2011/03/sx...
Agreed nice to see someone walked the talk. Its interesting whether DRM is broken as a concept or just implementation. For books and songs I can see where people like Tim will accept that the people who were going to pay for his books will pay rather than go mucking through the torrent heap to find the free version. Quote on Techcrunch last month: "Most adults do not want to steal intellectual property if there’s an affordable alternative to doing so" http://tcrn.ch/eywL2E
Still though from a security perspective moving security from the network and infrastructure and to the information is highly desiarable. In this, DRM as a concept is not flawed but the implementation. I wrote some ways this could be fixed last year: http://rakkhi.blogspot.com/2010/08/making-drm-practical.html
Still though from a security perspective moving security from the network and infrastructure and to the information is highly desiarable. In this, DRM as a concept is not flawed but the implementation. I wrote some ways this could be fixed last year: http://rakkhi.blogspot.com/2010/08/making-drm-practical.html
I'm sorry, but your blog post really and truly makes no sense whatsoever. You identify what you consider the "problems" with DRM (while omitting the actual problems) and your "solution" is just statement of the properties you'd like it to have, not any idea of how those properties could be achieved (they can't, at least not without draconian "trusted hardware" across the board)
There was an article on HN a few weeks ago about a guy who was selling something I don't remember. But he used to sell books. And when talking about piracy he asked the audience who did not agree with him "how many of you are fanboys/fangirls of an author and will buy everything that person makes" which was followed by "how many of you bought the anything made by that author as your very first introduction to him/her as opposed to borrowing it from someone, reading it in a library, pirating it and reading it, etc...?"
People understand the value of things. If you give people something they value and want more of, they will gladly pay for it (the value that they see it's worth) because they want you to keep producing. They know if they stop there will be nothing new. So the end-goal is to make people see the value you produce (even if its giving them that thing for free) because instead of instant-value you will get long-term customers.
People understand the value of things. If you give people something they value and want more of, they will gladly pay for it (the value that they see it's worth) because they want you to keep producing. They know if they stop there will be nothing new. So the end-goal is to make people see the value you produce (even if its giving them that thing for free) because instead of instant-value you will get long-term customers.
That sounds like Neil Gaiman's take on piracy:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2351978
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2351978
Or Eric Flint's take on it, which resulted in Baen Books putting a respectable number of their books online for free:
http://www.baen.com/library/
It's been a good boost to sales.
http://www.baen.com/library/
It's been a good boost to sales.
The comment below this one mentions Gaiman, which is pro-customer.
However, I believe the reference you are looking for was the comic author who was pirated on 4chan. Then he showed up and starting talking with them, and encouraging them. Of course "Pics or it didnt happen" occurred, so Steve Lieber (author/artist) posted the BoingBoing vs 4Chan chart.
"If nothing else, I'm flattered someone thought enough of the book to take the time to scan and post it" - Steve Lieber.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101021/10481211524/comic-...
However, I believe the reference you are looking for was the comic author who was pirated on 4chan. Then he showed up and starting talking with them, and encouraging them. Of course "Pics or it didnt happen" occurred, so Steve Lieber (author/artist) posted the BoingBoing vs 4Chan chart.
"If nothing else, I'm flattered someone thought enough of the book to take the time to scan and post it" - Steve Lieber.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101021/10481211524/comic-...
Purchased and downloaded a book from Wrox this weekend, looks like they're taking the same route. Loved the experience.
They don't even check--they just take your word for it.
I just hope people don't abuse it, but, as Tim says, they'd rather have 100K books floating around and 10K books sold, than just 10K books sold. Can't help but improve their visibility and overall sales.
Good folks.