Ask HN: Manager listening to my calls, dropping references in open meetings
16 comments
> What do I do?
I was in a similar situation but with some minor differences, and without getting too far into the weeds or revealing too much information: do whatever he asks, and ask him to clarify and be very intentional in everything. Be polite, be respectful, and most of all be responsive. If obvious whistle-blower type behavior emerges (as in he's obviously breaking the law or violating agreements) then take advantage of your company's means of reporting that. If he does do something that's illegal or near it, respectfully tell him that you don't feel comfortable doing that and ask for alternative ways of doing things that wouldn't require you to make those decisions. If he's spying on you, just accept and ignore it.
Here's what I learned the hard way: guys like that weed themselves out eventually. The lack of competency will surface and become clear to his bosses. The overall goal of the company is to turn a profit and anything that jeopardizes that (illegal/bad behavior, bad press, lost revenue/profit, etc) will be removed. It may not happen as fast as you'd like but it will happen.
I was in a similar situation but with some minor differences, and without getting too far into the weeds or revealing too much information: do whatever he asks, and ask him to clarify and be very intentional in everything. Be polite, be respectful, and most of all be responsive. If obvious whistle-blower type behavior emerges (as in he's obviously breaking the law or violating agreements) then take advantage of your company's means of reporting that. If he does do something that's illegal or near it, respectfully tell him that you don't feel comfortable doing that and ask for alternative ways of doing things that wouldn't require you to make those decisions. If he's spying on you, just accept and ignore it.
Here's what I learned the hard way: guys like that weed themselves out eventually. The lack of competency will surface and become clear to his bosses. The overall goal of the company is to turn a profit and anything that jeopardizes that (illegal/bad behavior, bad press, lost revenue/profit, etc) will be removed. It may not happen as fast as you'd like but it will happen.
I have been through the same situation and dealt with it in the same way.
It’s actually a very interesting and “easy” situation to handle if you are more outspoken than not.
Communicate everything in writing, even after a voice conversation. Answer only the questions you are asked. State that you will do as told but also mention anything you don’t agree with (in writing) and ask for specific directions. Halt work at every possible point and raise questions at every single possible deviation from the original direction. Don’t solve any problems on your own.
Eventually this person will either fail by directing every single task on his own or will give up doing it because of the amount of work it takes to direct someone when you are micromanaging.
I usually use my supervisors strategy against them. If they ask for documents, I bury them in paper work. If they micromanage and don’t listen I do exactly as told even if everyone else knows it won’t work.
This is a game of patience and people are not stupid. They will see what’s happening.
It’s actually a very interesting and “easy” situation to handle if you are more outspoken than not.
Communicate everything in writing, even after a voice conversation. Answer only the questions you are asked. State that you will do as told but also mention anything you don’t agree with (in writing) and ask for specific directions. Halt work at every possible point and raise questions at every single possible deviation from the original direction. Don’t solve any problems on your own.
Eventually this person will either fail by directing every single task on his own or will give up doing it because of the amount of work it takes to direct someone when you are micromanaging.
I usually use my supervisors strategy against them. If they ask for documents, I bury them in paper work. If they micromanage and don’t listen I do exactly as told even if everyone else knows it won’t work.
This is a game of patience and people are not stupid. They will see what’s happening.
> I usually use my supervisors strategy against them. If they ask for documents, I bury them in paper work
I like this idea in general, but in this particular case, what's stopping them from just not reading them? They can keep asking for docs and not reading them without inflicting any pain on themselves.
I like this idea in general, but in this particular case, what's stopping them from just not reading them? They can keep asking for docs and not reading them without inflicting any pain on themselves.
I suspect the conversation then becomes; Task X is taking longer due to documentation requirement. Personally I'd use it as cover to slow way tf down :)
That is usually what happens. They don't read it.
But then, the next time they ask for something along the same lines I can find a way to point to the previous document that wasn't read and they give up asking because they know I will keep pointing out they didn't read it.
But then, the next time they ask for something along the same lines I can find a way to point to the previous document that wasn't read and they give up asking because they know I will keep pointing out they didn't read it.
This seems pretty passive aggressive. Wouldn't it be better to be proactive and bring it to their attention of their manager directly? i.e. request a private with problematic person's manager and outline concerns. Generally you shouldn't go over your manager's head, but when that person is the problem then in my mind that's an exception.
If it goes badly then it is time to start looking for a new job. But if you have a reasonable company culture then it shouldn't do. This is why employees (even senior ones) have managers.
If it goes badly then it is time to start looking for a new job. But if you have a reasonable company culture then it shouldn't do. This is why employees (even senior ones) have managers.
Yeah...no. In the situation I was in, I tried this. Only to find out that my supervisor's manager was sleeping with her. Worse yet, he gave her the password to his e-mail and she was reviewing them when he was travelling - including the one where I asked to have a meeting when he got back (and the reasons why).
It got unpleasant for awhile, but I was fortunately able to move to another group and watch from afar as the sandcastle she and her paramour had created crumble around them. They were both asked to leave at the next round of layoffs.
It got unpleasant for awhile, but I was fortunately able to move to another group and watch from afar as the sandcastle she and her paramour had created crumble around them. They were both asked to leave at the next round of layoffs.
I'm sure I read a story like this on HN only a few months ago. Unfortunately, the new guy was put in place because he had previous connections with the upper levels. So, that didn't go well.
Realistically, the new guy is the manager. His managers put him in place because they thought he was the best for the job. Perhaps for reasons we don't know about, perhaps they are incompetent or perhaps they think he is the best thing since sliced bread and he misled them.
I appreciate your exception 'if you have a reasonable company culture' but the truth is that of the ones that do, some of it is faked and I think the likelihood of bringing their failure to their attention and having them appreciate it is actually quite low.
If I thought somebody was listening in to my private conversations I might start having false private conversations and see if they pick up on that. If they do then that might be a crime of its own.
Realistically, the new guy is the manager. His managers put him in place because they thought he was the best for the job. Perhaps for reasons we don't know about, perhaps they are incompetent or perhaps they think he is the best thing since sliced bread and he misled them.
I appreciate your exception 'if you have a reasonable company culture' but the truth is that of the ones that do, some of it is faked and I think the likelihood of bringing their failure to their attention and having them appreciate it is actually quite low.
If I thought somebody was listening in to my private conversations I might start having false private conversations and see if they pick up on that. If they do then that might be a crime of its own.
Agreed but ensure much of that communication is through email. Email provides two legal qualities: evidence and nonrepudiation.
If there comes a time when there is an investigation of malpractice, ethics, or a crime all you have to say is that you put everything in email. The company can retrieve the evidence as necessary or obtain the subpoenas as necessary without voluntary disclosure on your part.
If there comes a time when there is an investigation of malpractice, ethics, or a crime all you have to say is that you put everything in email. The company can retrieve the evidence as necessary or obtain the subpoenas as necessary without voluntary disclosure on your part.
Start practicing CYA (Cover Your Ass) diligently. Follow all of the rules, document everything (email follow ups for any any conversation), and be tactful at all times. Give him no space to find fault, and have proof. Discuss your concerns with HR if you can.
Personally, I would be looking for an exit, either mine or his.
Personally, I would be looking for an exit, either mine or his.
> Discuss your concerns with HR if you can.
Be wary of this. HR exists to protect the company and void litigation, not necessarily to protect the employee or the employee's work environment.
Be wary of this. HR exists to protect the company and void litigation, not necessarily to protect the employee or the employee's work environment.
Indeed. HR is not your friend. It exists to cover the employer's ass.
@OP consider asking for advice on https://workplace.stackexchange.com
@OP consider asking for advice on https://workplace.stackexchange.com
The only time HR will be your friend is when you get to align both yours and their interests.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"
Do not go to HR yet.
I repeat - Do not say anything to HR about someone who has a higher authority than you no matter how skilled or how much tenure you have. I learned this the hard way. HR is not your friend. They will try to only remove an obstacle which may be you.
"Discuss your concerns with HR if you can."
I don't think this is good advice. Sorry.
If boss person is monitoring communications, it's 99% likely this is happening within the policy guidelines of your company.
I don't think this is good advice. Sorry.
If boss person is monitoring communications, it's 99% likely this is happening within the policy guidelines of your company.
Although, it not fun to think about, you should always have an exit strategy.
As mentioned above, HR is not your friend. I would think of HR as a place where you can document your future lawsuit and buy you a little time to find another job.
I had an issue with another programmer, (homophobic slur and he was getting cozy with the client/boss) so feared for my job. I filed a complaint and got it documented. It allows you maybe 6 months before they fire you or buys you sometime to get in a better space.
Although it's fun to think about suing your previous employer, it very rarely works out. That energy can be spent finding a better job.
There is a time to fight... but from what little I know, this doesn't sound like one of them.
p.s. I'm no longer at the job and have moved on and even more happier.
As mentioned above, HR is not your friend. I would think of HR as a place where you can document your future lawsuit and buy you a little time to find another job.
I had an issue with another programmer, (homophobic slur and he was getting cozy with the client/boss) so feared for my job. I filed a complaint and got it documented. It allows you maybe 6 months before they fire you or buys you sometime to get in a better space.
Although it's fun to think about suing your previous employer, it very rarely works out. That energy can be spent finding a better job.
There is a time to fight... but from what little I know, this doesn't sound like one of them.
p.s. I'm no longer at the job and have moved on and even more happier.
I think the exit strategy is the most important part. This manager sounds like an abusive psycho, and you do not want to be working with that type of person, much less for that type of person.
Mitigate it in the meantime; these CYA strategies are good advice (except maybe the HR one), but most importantly, RUN AWAY AS SOON AS YOU CAN.
Mitigate it in the meantime; these CYA strategies are good advice (except maybe the HR one), but most importantly, RUN AWAY AS SOON AS YOU CAN.
Re: Personally, I would be looking for an exit
Agreed. If you have options, leave. You can't fix jerks. Then again, every job will have some, but if it's your supervisor, then polish up your resume. The stress is not worth your health.
Agreed. If you have options, leave. You can't fix jerks. Then again, every job will have some, but if it's your supervisor, then polish up your resume. The stress is not worth your health.
Win by not fighting. People like this are a red flag that there are bigger things wrong in the organisation. Unless it is your family's firm, it's not your place and it's really not your concern to be fixing it -- even if you succeed in doing so, it's highly unlikely you'll see any reward for it.
There is a non-fiscal cost as well. The more this is a subject weighing on your mind, the tighter your mind will wrap around it and the more difficult it will become to extricate yourself.
You can always get paid elsewhere, but you can never get the time back. Do not waste it in situations like this with people like this. Even if you win, it's still time spent you could have been doing better elsewhere.
Finally, always remember that this too shall pass. Good luck.
There is a non-fiscal cost as well. The more this is a subject weighing on your mind, the tighter your mind will wrap around it and the more difficult it will become to extricate yourself.
You can always get paid elsewhere, but you can never get the time back. Do not waste it in situations like this with people like this. Even if you win, it's still time spent you could have been doing better elsewhere.
Finally, always remember that this too shall pass. Good luck.
If you can't even get a meeting with the guy, that's a pretty bad sign. Communication requires two folks and if he won't even sit down with you, there's not much hope.
You're right that there's probabbly not much choice but to move on.
CYA in the meantime, be the model employee. If he does feel threatened by you, you do not want to get into a conflict with him considering you're already having a hard time with it.
Work on where you might want to go and start applying. Look forward to finding a new / better place with cool things to do and good people.
You're right that there's probabbly not much choice but to move on.
CYA in the meantime, be the model employee. If he does feel threatened by you, you do not want to get into a conflict with him considering you're already having a hard time with it.
Work on where you might want to go and start applying. Look forward to finding a new / better place with cool things to do and good people.
It's a tricky situation.
Note that anyone in a company can be replaced. So you could work your way to have him replaced before he replaces you.
Keep proofs of what you are doing, proofs that he cannot edit or remove and that you will still have if you lose your job. Be very polite and professional in your communications, and prefer emails. It's easier to show to others.
You can talk to others in the company, especially above him, not only in your group. However be careful about who you talk to and what you say, human resources is usually not on your side. They don't work for you but for the company. So try to be positive and useful for the company and consider that firing you may be the easiest conflict resolution for the company, but that firing the new executive could also be seen as the best solution.
But you may want to wait a few weeks before starting the hostilities, and perhaps have some jobs leads just in case.
In my opinion, your company will find a good solution that will please everyone. If not, you should find a new company.
Note that anyone in a company can be replaced. So you could work your way to have him replaced before he replaces you.
Keep proofs of what you are doing, proofs that he cannot edit or remove and that you will still have if you lose your job. Be very polite and professional in your communications, and prefer emails. It's easier to show to others.
You can talk to others in the company, especially above him, not only in your group. However be careful about who you talk to and what you say, human resources is usually not on your side. They don't work for you but for the company. So try to be positive and useful for the company and consider that firing you may be the easiest conflict resolution for the company, but that firing the new executive could also be seen as the best solution.
But you may want to wait a few weeks before starting the hostilities, and perhaps have some jobs leads just in case.
In my opinion, your company will find a good solution that will please everyone. If not, you should find a new company.
Working on getting someone replaced seems a very unhealthy and unprofessional kind of conflict resolution.
That's actually true. But life is too short to deal with terrible people many hours a week if you can afford not to.
Perhaps the best professional and healthy solution is to find a new job if the conflict isn't resolved in good time.
Perhaps the best professional and healthy solution is to find a new job if the conflict isn't resolved in good time.
I think if you're in a company where you feel you can't bring an issue up to someone above you, something is wrong. I would go talk to someone about it or leave the job.
My experience working with people who don't have discussions (or they only have "1" way ones) is they are bad at their job so they have to be defensive all the time.
My experience working with people who don't have discussions (or they only have "1" way ones) is they are bad at their job so they have to be defensive all the time.
> I think if you're in a company where you feel you can't bring an issue up to someone above you, something is wrong
If you are going to "skip level", be already prepared to "skip jobs". I don't care what open door policy your company has. You are the weakest link.
If you are going to "skip level", be already prepared to "skip jobs". I don't care what open door policy your company has. You are the weakest link.
> You are the weakest link.
>> OP: They never ask for anyone's opinion or advice. They seem to be intent on dictating everything. When they run a meeting, they do not let anyone discuss the topic. The meetings are highly controlled.
This exec sounds like the weakest link. I have seen execs straight up make up revenue projections to match their agenda/plans... and it always ends badly.
>> OP: They never ask for anyone's opinion or advice. They seem to be intent on dictating everything. When they run a meeting, they do not let anyone discuss the topic. The meetings are highly controlled.
This exec sounds like the weakest link. I have seen execs straight up make up revenue projections to match their agenda/plans... and it always ends badly.
> This exec sounds like the weakest link.
You don't know how this exec managed to get their position. Also, if they are still at the stage they can fake their numbers, whatever these may be, OP is screwed. It may take time for the exec's obvious incompetence to start to show.
EDIT: also, a manager or executive is NEVER in a weaker position compared to "individual contributors". They can still fire your ass until their last day of employment.
You don't know how this exec managed to get their position. Also, if they are still at the stage they can fake their numbers, whatever these may be, OP is screwed. It may take time for the exec's obvious incompetence to start to show.
EDIT: also, a manager or executive is NEVER in a weaker position compared to "individual contributors". They can still fire your ass until their last day of employment.
First, is the manager new to the group or new to the organization?
If the manager new to the group then you need to be careful, could be someone's buddy,relative, or has been tagged for "great things" by senior management. Do your homework on the new person first.
Even if the person is new to the organization, they still may be connected in your organization.
The fact that he doesn't want to talk to you means he either wants you gone or already has a plan in place to make you gone, he might have a friend he wants to hire.
I got whacked from a job that way. New CEO, hires his buddy. I report to the buddy, the buddy won't speak with me ever, for any reason. He holds 1-1's with everyone but me. He even has rules for how the 1-1's take place, no communication for me. I was working on something very important for the company, once I finished the work, it took 8 months. Two days later I got a meeting invite from him, entitled "catch up". I assumed I was getting fired. When I got on the call, the first thing out of my mouth was, "Hello Mr.s VP of HR" I shocked the hell out of her, then proceeded to tell her the my boss never speaks to me and since he sent me an invite after completing my project it must of have meant that I was getting fired.
I got fired on Friday, and my replacement started on Monday, he worked with the my boss and the CEO at their previous company. I found out later that being able to hire the friend was part of the agreement before my boss took his job. I got fired without my boss ever having spoken to me. Apparently he was incredibly impressed with me, but he wanted his buddy.
If the manager new to the group then you need to be careful, could be someone's buddy,relative, or has been tagged for "great things" by senior management. Do your homework on the new person first.
Even if the person is new to the organization, they still may be connected in your organization.
The fact that he doesn't want to talk to you means he either wants you gone or already has a plan in place to make you gone, he might have a friend he wants to hire.
I got whacked from a job that way. New CEO, hires his buddy. I report to the buddy, the buddy won't speak with me ever, for any reason. He holds 1-1's with everyone but me. He even has rules for how the 1-1's take place, no communication for me. I was working on something very important for the company, once I finished the work, it took 8 months. Two days later I got a meeting invite from him, entitled "catch up". I assumed I was getting fired. When I got on the call, the first thing out of my mouth was, "Hello Mr.s VP of HR" I shocked the hell out of her, then proceeded to tell her the my boss never speaks to me and since he sent me an invite after completing my project it must of have meant that I was getting fired.
I got fired on Friday, and my replacement started on Monday, he worked with the my boss and the CEO at their previous company. I found out later that being able to hire the friend was part of the agreement before my boss took his job. I got fired without my boss ever having spoken to me. Apparently he was incredibly impressed with me, but he wanted his buddy.
Hard to know without more detail, but if your boss is a "fear biter", you should be looking hard for a new job.
In the meantime, one (unpleasant) strategy that has worked for me in the past is to start adoring them at every possible opportunity. This can't be snarky--you have to make it seem authentic.
Also, check out on trying to get anything done. Just go with the flow, don't go out of your way to fix things.
No way to live, of course, so work on that next job.
In the meantime, one (unpleasant) strategy that has worked for me in the past is to start adoring them at every possible opportunity. This can't be snarky--you have to make it seem authentic.
Also, check out on trying to get anything done. Just go with the flow, don't go out of your way to fix things.
No way to live, of course, so work on that next job.
If you just want it to be over say things he likes,be very nice and find something better. In the mean time don't let it get to you. The world is full of small insecure people who don't have a grasp on how short a human life is.
If you want to fight and win, use misinformation techniques to frustrate him. Say things that could be misunderstood by him that will hurt his ego ajd cause him to act without thinking things through. When confronted (ideally in front of others) play the plausibly deniable interpretation of what you said to mean something he/she would appreciate or be flatterd by. I highly recommend reading aesop's children's fables for ideas. Just remember, your end goal should always be to promote him or people he likes and to never act in bad faith.
I've been in a worse situation. To me, I thought about it a lot and it came down to whether or not I should wrestle with pigs. I get all dirty but they have all the fun. Life is short. "This too shall pass away".
If you want to fight and win, use misinformation techniques to frustrate him. Say things that could be misunderstood by him that will hurt his ego ajd cause him to act without thinking things through. When confronted (ideally in front of others) play the plausibly deniable interpretation of what you said to mean something he/she would appreciate or be flatterd by. I highly recommend reading aesop's children's fables for ideas. Just remember, your end goal should always be to promote him or people he likes and to never act in bad faith.
I've been in a worse situation. To me, I thought about it a lot and it came down to whether or not I should wrestle with pigs. I get all dirty but they have all the fun. Life is short. "This too shall pass away".
chat some believable but wrong information, see if he repeats it. it's a bit of a canary trap as he is unlikely to have got the same wrong information from another source, so it confirms you thoughts of spying. but that's about all you can do, if he discovers the obvious sabotage though it may cause you trouble.
I would invent a piece of jargon that is plausible, but not in use. Drop that in, and see whether it surfaces.
there is a risk here though that rather than 'listening in' to the conversation he is getting the gossip from a coworker in which case the coworker might just tell the new boss that the OP is wrong about something
> I have become convinced he is somehow listening in to my conversations using the company communications app
Who would have time to do this in addition to their normal responsibilities?
Who would have time to do this in addition to their normal responsibilities?
Yeah I'm surprised no one else questioned this. If I'm being blunt, when I hear "this person is sending me secret messages when they talk" the first thing I think of is paranoid schizophrenia. Also "my device is bugged and someone is listening" sounds quite paranoid. I'm not saying the OP is wrong, but the vibes are there, and I would recommend they talk to a medical professional.
I had a boss who did something similar - not to me, but to one of our people who was problematic, technically. He decided/ realized that this person would often not really contribute anything, but just parrot and regurgitate things without any intrinsic understanding.
So he'd start throwing in things that were wrong. Wait til they agreed with it, or repeated it later, and then "Oh, wait - I totally mispoke, I meant xxx, not yyy!"
So he'd start throwing in things that were wrong. Wait til they agreed with it, or repeated it later, and then "Oh, wait - I totally mispoke, I meant xxx, not yyy!"
I see a lot of CYA, this only works to a certain point depending on your manager his/her people skills.
There are basically two paths to stay financially safe, do whatever it takes to keep working there by kissing ass or whatever. Or get a nice exit check, for this talk to a lawyer. His behaviour may be against the law if proven and may enable that check.
First, all large companies have the ability to snoop on employee's emails and communications. It's also possible that managers have asked for this capability to monitor their employees. So no real surprises there.
Reason can always be found for termination. So it's probably not worthwhile trying to fight it.
People think that managers are super fair, but it turns out many of them are more like Trump, specifically with the fragile ego aspect. Simple compliments, undeserved or not, go a long way to help stabilize his ego, and his treatment of you. Ideally your ideas become his ideas.
I know it sucks, but you have zero power in this relationship. So either you play ball with the guy, or you quit and find a job that's more about the job and less about ego stroking.
Reason can always be found for termination. So it's probably not worthwhile trying to fight it.
People think that managers are super fair, but it turns out many of them are more like Trump, specifically with the fragile ego aspect. Simple compliments, undeserved or not, go a long way to help stabilize his ego, and his treatment of you. Ideally your ideas become his ideas.
I know it sucks, but you have zero power in this relationship. So either you play ball with the guy, or you quit and find a job that's more about the job and less about ego stroking.
Feed him false information to sabotage him.
hang in there brother, jobs are rare right now. change the key, port and lock up comm. cruise control. safety dance.
I wanted to share a situation I am in and ask for help or advice. I suspect there isn't much hope for me other than "get a new job ASAP."
My company has gone through some changes and a new executive was brought in to oversee my group.
This person's style is highly unusual, they do not do "open discussions." They never ask for anyone's opinion or advice. They seem to be intent on dictating everything. When they run a meeting, they do not let anyone discuss the topic. The meetings are highly controlled.
Things went from merely low-level intolerable to "wtf" recently for me when this manager began including specific words and phrases I had said to others in his weekly presentations.
It would be easy to assume this is accidental or maybe he overheard these phrases somehow from others. But after multiple iterations of this, I have become convinced he is somehow listening in to my conversations using the company communications app.
I feel he is taking this approach to cover for his lack of skills or qualifications, probably a fear driven strategy to preserve his job. He knows I am significantly more skilled than him so he seems to be dealing with that my trying to use indirect public shaming to control me.
I feel he is highly threatened by me. Despite repeated attempts to get 1:1 meetings with him (he moves them all or cancels them or schedules over them) to have a normal human conversation, he does not want to talk directly.
I am highly alarmed and feel invaded by what this guy seems to be doing. Is this common? I am so against this and find the practice completely repugnant. I would never do anything like this to my direct reports.
I need this job, but this environment is incredibly sick and off-putting. What do I do?