How Carlos Ghosn Was Smuggled Out of Japan(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
How Carlos Ghosn Was Smuggled Out of Japan
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-01-14/how-nissan-s-carlos-ghosn-was-smuggled-out-of-japan
8 comments
Is it really glorifying it? The article doesn't exactly make Ghosn sound like a hero to me.
> But as Ghosn’s speech went on, entropy took hold. He jumped rapidly from allegation to allegation at a pace that was difficult to follow even for observers versed in the latest Ghosniana. At one point he committed the No. 1 faux pas for foreigners in Japan, comparing his arrest to the attack on Pearl Harbor. There were flashes of arrogance, with Ghosn describing Nissan as “in the dirt” before he arrived and boasting that “20 books of management were written about me.” He devoted a significant stretch of time to a relatively minor issue—whether his comped use of a room at Versailles for his 2016 wedding celebration constituted a sort of kickback for Renault’s sponsorship of the palace—providing a convoluted explanation that he later summed up with, “If I had thought there had been an ethical problem, I wouldn’t have done it.”
> But as Ghosn’s speech went on, entropy took hold. He jumped rapidly from allegation to allegation at a pace that was difficult to follow even for observers versed in the latest Ghosniana. At one point he committed the No. 1 faux pas for foreigners in Japan, comparing his arrest to the attack on Pearl Harbor. There were flashes of arrogance, with Ghosn describing Nissan as “in the dirt” before he arrived and boasting that “20 books of management were written about me.” He devoted a significant stretch of time to a relatively minor issue—whether his comped use of a room at Versailles for his 2016 wedding celebration constituted a sort of kickback for Renault’s sponsorship of the palace—providing a convoluted explanation that he later summed up with, “If I had thought there had been an ethical problem, I wouldn’t have done it.”
Reportedly the guy is considered a hero in Lebanon. The reactions on the press articles are also very favourable, just not perfectly behind him and raising some eyebrows.
Let's ask this question after the movie comes, even better let's ask the kids of the guy in jail to rate the movie about the tragedy of an imprisoned rich CEO that their father was forced to help and go to jail. Let's hope that the mother has a decent income so that they can afford the ticket to the movie.
Let's ask this question after the movie comes, even better let's ask the kids of the guy in jail to rate the movie about the tragedy of an imprisoned rich CEO that their father was forced to help and go to jail. Let's hope that the mother has a decent income so that they can afford the ticket to the movie.
If his family was threatened why is he still in jail?
Did the judge not believe him? Or was it simply that you are always imprisoned in that country regardless of mitigating circumstances.
Because, unlike Ghosn, the guy will face trail since you don't go free by simply saying that you did what you did because someone made you. He obviously committed a crime, now it will take time to receive a ruling and a sentence(which hopefully will be a fair one, based on his claims and the findings of the prosecutor).
He will probably lose his job, his family will go through an ordeal and possibly poverty until the case closes.
Or maybe he willingly participated and took some serious money, who knows? Unlike with Ghosn, his incident would be put on trial.
He will probably lose his job, his family will go through an ordeal and possibly poverty until the case closes.
Or maybe he willingly participated and took some serious money, who knows? Unlike with Ghosn, his incident would be put on trial.
Regarding the Versailles part, this is not a minor issue for his public image in France and I can see him trying to restore his image first here where it's the most damaged (a huge part of the opinion think he's guilty): that's the event that really swayed the public opinion to him being used to unreported compensation/kickbacks/misappropriation of corporate assets, and totally capable of doing the same thing with Nissan.
For many japaneses, the attack on Pearl Harbor is the mistake where they have lost the war. The Japanese army is essentially a navy. Sailors play chess, but not go. Therefore, they are very strong to win great battles, but lack the global vision to win a war.
What's a better world, one where some people has the means to defend themselves against injustice, or one where nobody does but at least we're all equal?
He broke the law a bunch of times and then threatened a man's family to force him to comply, and got the man locked up. This isn't fighting injustice, it's causing injustice.
"He broke the law a bunch of times"
Kowing if he did that is dependent on there being a court decision.
Look, I don't like that some probably innocent plane guy is in jail more than anyone else but judging people just because they are rich is also wrong.
Also I'm pretty sure it wasn't Gosn that threatened him but rather the security guy that put together the plan.
Kowing if he did that is dependent on there being a court decision.
Look, I don't like that some probably innocent plane guy is in jail more than anyone else but judging people just because they are rich is also wrong.
Also I'm pretty sure it wasn't Gosn that threatened him but rather the security guy that put together the plan.
He left Japan while the decision about his guilt was pending. He chose to work in Japan, so he has to play by the same rules as the rest of us here. It’s a law and order country. If the prosecutor wants you, you’re in big trouble. To be honest, if he was Japanese, he most likely would have killed himself or at least accepted that his life is over due to the shaming. That’s how it’s done here. If you don’t like it, don’t play in this stadium.
Him leaving Japan is undoubtedly illegal and not excusable. However if I understand the allegations correctly, he stole a bunch of money from a company he was running. Putting him to jail for 10 years for stealing $5m from a company that he just made $4bn for seems a bit harsh. Then again, Japan has the right to decide that so my opinion is irrelevant.
In Japan, stealing even a small amount is treated harshly. Recently, I recall that a member of Abe’s cabinet lost his political career because his staff mis-allocated a few hundred dollars worth of lunch receipts, which were erroneously charged to public accounts. Some people see it as disproportionate, but remember that you are expected to be even harsher in judging yourself in these situations. There’s a whole secondary wave of shame if you don’t one-up the required penalty voluntarily.
ekianjo(1)
>Also I'm pretty sure it wasn't Ghosn that threatened him but rather the security guy that put together the plan.
Is this the reverse of "I just followed orders"? Can the cartel bosses in Mexico not being guilty of the actions of their security guys? Maybe all they wanted was to do a trade but these pesky security guys keep killing people brutally.
Is this the reverse of "I just followed orders"? Can the cartel bosses in Mexico not being guilty of the actions of their security guys? Maybe all they wanted was to do a trade but these pesky security guys keep killing people brutally.
Depends on what the order was. If he said "threaten and kill anyone that gets in the way" then yes Ghosn is guilty.
If the order was "get me out of the country without harming anyone" then the security guy was guilty.
At this point we don't know which it was.
How do you explain his decision to enter Lebanon openly, exposing his plane, therefore exposing the route and the people involved when not exposing the people who organised all this? Why he did not enter Lebanon in the same box he left Japan?
I am pretty sure that Ghosn is intelligent enough to know that as soon as he exposes his route of escape, the people involved in the operation will be exposed. He chooses to expose these when protecting the people he paid.
Was Carlos assuming that the security contractor works for the money and likes being not in jail just like him but airline personnel would do illegal things as part of the rent contract and not having problems with being exposed?
I am pretty sure that Ghosn is intelligent enough to know that as soon as he exposes his route of escape, the people involved in the operation will be exposed. He chooses to expose these when protecting the people he paid.
Was Carlos assuming that the security contractor works for the money and likes being not in jail just like him but airline personnel would do illegal things as part of the rent contract and not having problems with being exposed?
My point is - is it possible that he is directly responsible for the airplane guy going to prison? Possibly, but we don't know.
Presumption of innocence is important.
Example: there's a locally well known actor where I live that was accused of having child porn on his computer a few months ago. The press obviously jumped all over that and he was plastered over all the front pages. Fast forward two months and it's actually looking like he isn't actually guilty and won't be dragged into court. The result for him however is that he's broke, got no more acting gigs and his kids are bullied in school.
Bad result. Because people didn't assume he's innocent until PROVEN guilty. I'd be 100% happy to trade off some exec that steals money from a company getting to skip jail for nobody who's innocent ever ending up in jail.
Presumption of innocence is important.
Example: there's a locally well known actor where I live that was accused of having child porn on his computer a few months ago. The press obviously jumped all over that and he was plastered over all the front pages. Fast forward two months and it's actually looking like he isn't actually guilty and won't be dragged into court. The result for him however is that he's broke, got no more acting gigs and his kids are bullied in school.
Bad result. Because people didn't assume he's innocent until PROVEN guilty. I'd be 100% happy to trade off some exec that steals money from a company getting to skip jail for nobody who's innocent ever ending up in jail.
This is not a court of law, the public opinion is formed from the info available to us and we form our opinions based on our understanding. This is O.K. because we do not put people in prison.
For example, it was O.K. to think that Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos a fraud and express this opinion well before the court decided that.
Therefore I think this is not a glorious story of an innocent CEO persecuted by the baddies, I laid out my reasons for that. You are free to think otherwise but if you want to participate in the discussion you are expected to build up your position and defend it. "Let's wait for the court decision" is not a good argument, especially when a subject is a person who runs from a court decision.
For example, it was O.K. to think that Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos a fraud and express this opinion well before the court decided that.
Therefore I think this is not a glorious story of an innocent CEO persecuted by the baddies, I laid out my reasons for that. You are free to think otherwise but if you want to participate in the discussion you are expected to build up your position and defend it. "Let's wait for the court decision" is not a good argument, especially when a subject is a person who runs from a court decision.
"For example, it was O.K. to think that Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos a fraud and express this opinion well before the court decided that."
That's the part I don't agree with. I don't think it's fair.
It's also unlikely that I'll be able to change your mind on this matter or that you'll be able to change mine during the course of a few comments on HN, so we can agree to disagree :)
That's the part I don't agree with. I don't think it's fair.
It's also unlikely that I'll be able to change your mind on this matter or that you'll be able to change mine during the course of a few comments on HN, so we can agree to disagree :)
> the people involved in the operation will be exposed. He chooses to expose these when protecting the people he paid.
He didn't, these facts are the result of an investigation
He didn't, these facts are the result of an investigation
Obviously, if you use a registered plane and expose that plane by entering a country with your own identity you are choosing to expose people associated with the plane. If he attempted to conceal his method of transportation, for example entering Lebanon the way he exited Japan, then we would have had a case to argue that he did not choose to expose the people who helped him.
If you insist, we can rephrase it as "He didn't try to hide the identities of the logistic personnel as he hid the people who organised the operation".
It is a very strong clue that they were not from the same team, in sense of willingness and contract.
If you insist, we can rephrase it as "He didn't try to hide the identities of the logistic personnel as he hid the people who organised the operation".
It is a very strong clue that they were not from the same team, in sense of willingness and contract.
> if you use a registered plane
What is an "unregistered plane"? Not even the US military has that (except maybe for very specific experimental aircraft and even then).
> for example entering Lebanon the way he exited Japan
That's the reason for the stopover in Turkey. Anything else is spy movie territory.
What is an "unregistered plane"? Not even the US military has that (except maybe for very specific experimental aircraft and even then).
> for example entering Lebanon the way he exited Japan
That's the reason for the stopover in Turkey. Anything else is spy movie territory.
Nobody is judging him because he's rich. We're judging him for threatening and getting a guy sent to jail.
That's not a choice we are faced with, though, is it?
You're right, of course. We're actually faced with a choice between a world where some can defend themselves against injustice, and a world where some can defend themselves against injustice and also I write thinkpieces about how horrible that is on the internet.
It looks like I am going to choose the former, just so you know.
It looks like I am going to choose the former, just so you know.
"The guy who works for the Turkish aviation company claims that he was threatened with his family being harmed"
That would be my excuse also if I got caught.
That would be my excuse also if I got caught.
Why he would be caught when the others are not? The guy was not caught in a police chase, they simply looked at the records to see who is involved.
If he was getting his fair share of the money and protection he would have been boarding the plane with the rest of the team as it is obvious that the authorities would be coming after him.
Why they are coming after him? Because Ghosn entered Lebanon legally, exposing the plane he came in, thus compromising everyone in the logistics of the operation while protecting the reportedly well-paid organizers.
This Ghosn guy looks like the kind of a car company CEO that would crunch the number and decide not to do a recall of the fatally faulty cars if the legal fees are less than the cost of a recall.
If he was getting his fair share of the money and protection he would have been boarding the plane with the rest of the team as it is obvious that the authorities would be coming after him.
Why they are coming after him? Because Ghosn entered Lebanon legally, exposing the plane he came in, thus compromising everyone in the logistics of the operation while protecting the reportedly well-paid organizers.
This Ghosn guy looks like the kind of a car company CEO that would crunch the number and decide not to do a recall of the fatally faulty cars if the legal fees are less than the cost of a recall.
And if your family were actually threatened, what would be your excuse?
I think the point is, his statement that his family was threatened provides essentially no information at all, since many people would say that even if it were not true.
So we are supposed to assume that the CEO fled injustice, him an all the reportedly very well-paid conspirators are heroes but this one guy who did the leg work is lying.
If he was one of the conspirators, why he is not together with the rest of the team? AFAIK there was no police chase, Ghosn simply did not protect the identities of the people involved in the logistics by entering Lebanon openly instead of using the box.
If his family was not threatened, why he did it then? Why Carlos did not even try to protect his identity, why the guy did not run with the rest of the team and enjoy his millions somewhere nice?
If he was one of the conspirators, why he is not together with the rest of the team? AFAIK there was no police chase, Ghosn simply did not protect the identities of the people involved in the logistics by entering Lebanon openly instead of using the box.
If his family was not threatened, why he did it then? Why Carlos did not even try to protect his identity, why the guy did not run with the rest of the team and enjoy his millions somewhere nice?
> So we are supposed to assume that the CEO fled injustice, him an all the reportedly very well-paid conspirators are heroes but this one guy who did the leg work is lying.
Who's saying that? The CEO looks guilty to me, but I don't know the details of the case.
Who's saying that? The CEO looks guilty to me, but I don't know the details of the case.
Why assume he wasn't paid? I find it hard to believe that such a well-organised plan would hinge on being able to browbeat a lowly employee instead of rewarding him handsomely. A $15m operation could spare, say, a hundred thousand (a small fortune in Turkey).
The police arrested him based on the facts they have. I assume there will still be a trial and he can argument that his family was threatened, but from what we know, there's not that much evidence for that.
The exact same thing could have been said for Ghosn.
But hey, He is special so it is O.K. for him not to face trial and land other people in jail in the process and those people should face a trial. Right?
But hey, He is special so it is O.K. for him not to face trial and land other people in jail in the process and those people should face a trial. Right?
No. He did successfully fled, however. The police didn't manage to catch him in time.
No. You seem to falsely assume that nobody has empathy for the guy who was arrested. I personally think that it was alright for Ghosn to flee, because the Japanese "justice" system is inherently unjust. It does not fulfill the basic requirements for due process, and that is also the reason why e.g. France has already stated they would not extradite him if he came to France. At the same time it is very regrettable that someone in Turkey was arrested for helping him. I also think that the claim that his family was threatened is not very credible and likely a protection assertion.
I'd be surprised if Ghosn thought about this in any other way. People tend to assert all kinds of evilness to wealthy top managers when in the end most of them are just ordinary people who made the right career choices at the right time.
I'd be surprised if Ghosn thought about this in any other way. People tend to assert all kinds of evilness to wealthy top managers when in the end most of them are just ordinary people who made the right career choices at the right time.
Okay, so he was faced with a choice between being in jail and putting someone unrelated in jail, he chooses to put someone in jail and he is not evil?
If anything, it seems like he chose to save some money by not paying off the logistics team and prefered some comfort by not entering Lebanon openly instead of in a box, exposing the logistics team.
I think you wrongly assume that he is vilified due to him being rich. Non-CEO people who cause harm to others, forcing people to do things "or else" are also vilified. Rich or not, guilty or not, it is not O.K. to harm people for your own wellbeing.
If he was ill, should he also be allowed to harvest organs from living and unwilling people because otherwise, he will die?
If anything, it seems like he chose to save some money by not paying off the logistics team and prefered some comfort by not entering Lebanon openly instead of in a box, exposing the logistics team.
I think you wrongly assume that he is vilified due to him being rich. Non-CEO people who cause harm to others, forcing people to do things "or else" are also vilified. Rich or not, guilty or not, it is not O.K. to harm people for your own wellbeing.
If he was ill, should he also be allowed to harvest organs from living and unwilling people because otherwise, he will die?
>Okay, so he was faced with a choice between being in jail and putting someone unrelated in jail, he chooses to put someone in jail and he is not evil?
I'm pretty sure you know that this probably isn't what happened here.
I'm pretty sure you know that this probably isn't what happened here.
he wasn't faced with that choice at all.
Extradite him back to Japan. And arrest all that were accomplice to his escape. When did these people think that they are above the law? They made a mockery of the criminal justice system. And they once again proved that those with money and power are above the law.
National sovereignty is still a thing. If Lebanon thinks that Japan's legal system is not respecting their citizen's human rights, they should not extradite. If Lebanon does nothing within it's own legal system, then you can criticize them if you want for giving rich people impunity.
A criminal justice system that wins 100% of the cases it prosecutes makes a mockery of the system. Same way a dictator who wins 100% of the vote.
Criminal prosecutors (District Attorneys) in the United States have a near 100% conviction rate. This is because they selectively choose the cases they want to prosecute.
By your logic, are you also saying the United States makes a mockery of the criminal justice system?
So if you get convicted of a crime in the US, then you’d better pray to God that it isn’t handled by the DA.
By your logic, are you also saying the United States makes a mockery of the criminal justice system?
So if you get convicted of a crime in the US, then you’d better pray to God that it isn’t handled by the DA.
It’s common to read criticisms of the justice system in that regard.
If the DA is able to construe a set of charges carrying a maximum multi-year or even multi-decade custodial sentence, and when the option of not even being able to be considered for parole can be added as a condition of your sentence — no matter what kind of prison behavior you show, or how you respond as a prisoner to rehabilitation or reconciliation programs — then the plea bargaining process itself begins to seem a lot like an extrajudicial and unconstitutional trial of the kind one is surprised a moral society would endorse.
If the DA is able to construe a set of charges carrying a maximum multi-year or even multi-decade custodial sentence, and when the option of not even being able to be considered for parole can be added as a condition of your sentence — no matter what kind of prison behavior you show, or how you respond as a prisoner to rehabilitation or reconciliation programs — then the plea bargaining process itself begins to seem a lot like an extrajudicial and unconstitutional trial of the kind one is surprised a moral society would endorse.
The big difference AFAIK is that in USA, most of the cases end up with a deal between parties. In Japan the notion of deal doesn't exist.
It could be that Japan is lenient and does not prosecute cases which are not cut and dry. I don't know.
Anyway I don't know how much you are helping the USA here in your argument. A deal in the US is often like:
"Look, kid. With this deal, you get 1 year in prison. If we choose to prosecute, you are looking at 30 years to life. Your call. Remember, you have a [kid|mother|girlfriend]."
Who would risk going up in court, even if you maybe didn't even do very much? It's basic economics. The risk is too great that jury is going to hate you, no matter what you did or didn't do. Better take the bargain and cut your losses.
Anyway I don't know how much you are helping the USA here in your argument. A deal in the US is often like:
"Look, kid. With this deal, you get 1 year in prison. If we choose to prosecute, you are looking at 30 years to life. Your call. Remember, you have a [kid|mother|girlfriend]."
Who would risk going up in court, even if you maybe didn't even do very much? It's basic economics. The risk is too great that jury is going to hate you, no matter what you did or didn't do. Better take the bargain and cut your losses.
The plea bargain for criminal cases (especially for people with reduced access to defense attorneys) is certainly problematic.
Settlements, for civil cases, not so much, and I think it's an overall positive.
Settlements, for civil cases, not so much, and I think it's an overall positive.
Where the deal is, we don't put you to jail for 50+ years, you agree to be guilty and go for 10 years. With the prospect of ending your life in prision, everyone does a deal.
The Japanese criminal justice system doesn't win 100% of the cases it prosecutes. It should also be said that only a relative few even get to that point.
Canada: 97%
US: 85%
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate
I don’t believe the justice of France or USA is any better. Ghosn seems to be discovering how swift the justice is, like in any country.
USA has 95% convictions based on plea deals, so the investigation is only complete enough to convince the accused that he is isolated enough in his jail that he won’t be able to build a defense, but the accusation is never formally proved, it’s just the accused who agrees to admit crimes. Examples vary, for example pharmacists who are legally authorized to sell legal cannabis have been convicted because they couldn’t bring proof.
In France we have jihadists who get freed, rapists who get away with it because they are recently immigrated and « don’t have the western codes » (true quote from the judge), people who get French nationality after having assaulted a policeman; We also have people in jail for way lighter offenses, but who are public cases with lots of media pressure.
Although I’m all for a severe justice system, and process-based justice, I’m not convinced half of the convicts are there with a proven proof from the accusation ; rather, they couldn’t defend themselves.
USA has 95% convictions based on plea deals, so the investigation is only complete enough to convince the accused that he is isolated enough in his jail that he won’t be able to build a defense, but the accusation is never formally proved, it’s just the accused who agrees to admit crimes. Examples vary, for example pharmacists who are legally authorized to sell legal cannabis have been convicted because they couldn’t bring proof.
In France we have jihadists who get freed, rapists who get away with it because they are recently immigrated and « don’t have the western codes » (true quote from the judge), people who get French nationality after having assaulted a policeman; We also have people in jail for way lighter offenses, but who are public cases with lots of media pressure.
Although I’m all for a severe justice system, and process-based justice, I’m not convinced half of the convicts are there with a proven proof from the accusation ; rather, they couldn’t defend themselves.
It's not swift in France (very slow, actually), and it's not swift either in Japan, apparently.
One issue Ghosn mentioned is that his trial(s) was being delayed possibly until next year and beyond with his Japanese lawyer telling him that the whole thing could last up to 5 years.
Now, remember that the Japanese judiciary initially wanted to keep him in jail until his trial(s) and that the conditions of his bail were practically 'house arrest' with very limited contacts with his family and the world.
If I were 65 years old (as he is) and risked potentially having to stay years in jail/house arrest without trial in a foreign country and then risked up to 10 years in jail after that in a country that has a 99.6% conviction rate I would do whatever I could to get the f# out of there (whether I was guilty or innocent).
He had the means to do it and he did it. On a human level I cannot blame him.
One issue Ghosn mentioned is that his trial(s) was being delayed possibly until next year and beyond with his Japanese lawyer telling him that the whole thing could last up to 5 years.
Now, remember that the Japanese judiciary initially wanted to keep him in jail until his trial(s) and that the conditions of his bail were practically 'house arrest' with very limited contacts with his family and the world.
If I were 65 years old (as he is) and risked potentially having to stay years in jail/house arrest without trial in a foreign country and then risked up to 10 years in jail after that in a country that has a 99.6% conviction rate I would do whatever I could to get the f# out of there (whether I was guilty or innocent).
He had the means to do it and he did it. On a human level I cannot blame him.
> Although I’m all for a severe justice system
Do you have any evidence to support that this is actually a good idea?
Or is it just revenge porn you’re after?
Do you have any evidence to support that this is actually a good idea?
Or is it just revenge porn you’re after?
Well, I am no big fan of Gohsn, but judging from the way the Japanese justice system treats suspects, this system deserves to be mocked, rolled in tar and covered with feathers. Ghosn is not asking to escape judgement, he is asking for a fair trial. It’s now pretty obvious no such thing exists today in Japan. Maybe he is guilty, but I find it hard to blame him for escaping, irrespective of his wealth.
There was this AMA on reddit a couple months ago about someone writing about their experience in Japanese detention - https://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/cdqx4n/i_spent_20_da...
Given how inhumane it is, yeah, I think I would have tried to escape too
Given how inhumane it is, yeah, I think I would have tried to escape too
Nice excuse for escaping justice in any jurisdiction that ever existed.
The fact that the particular "criminal justice system" did not even allow him to contact the media sold me. He can't get a fair trial in Japan because their system is broken.
It's the same in Sweden. You can't have contact with media, family, other inmates, basically anyone except your attorney.
> And arrest all that were accomplice to his escape.
The fuck, why? Not at all obvious that this is illegal, and even if that’s the case it’s not at all obvious that this would be sufficiently illegal to justify arrest (and presumably extradition, which generally requires dual criminality).
Would you expect friends helping bail jumpers to be treated like this elsewhere? That’s not usually (ever?) the case.
The fuck, why? Not at all obvious that this is illegal, and even if that’s the case it’s not at all obvious that this would be sufficiently illegal to justify arrest (and presumably extradition, which generally requires dual criminality).
Would you expect friends helping bail jumpers to be treated like this elsewhere? That’s not usually (ever?) the case.
Harboring a fugitive, obstruction of justice, aiding and abetting [the escape], just to name a few obvious ones.
With respect to two US citizens mentioned in the article (and there may be more), they may be extradited should Japan makes the request. The US does have an extradition treaty with Japan and the crimes mentioned above are within the purview of the treaty.[1]
[1] https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/volume%201203/v...
With respect to two US citizens mentioned in the article (and there may be more), they may be extradited should Japan makes the request. The US does have an extradition treaty with Japan and the crimes mentioned above are within the purview of the treaty.[1]
[1] https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/volume%201203/v...
>Harboring a fugitive
The federal Harboring statutes do not appear to cover skipping bail (until an arrest warrant is issued).
>obstruction of justice
Obstruction of justice is a much more complicated topic, but I don't see any statute that would clearly fit this activity.
>aiding and abetting [the escape]
Would require the escape itself to be a crime in both jurisdictions, punishable with deprivation of liberty of more than one year.
IANAL, but I'm curious and able to read. The justice manual on justice.gov is a helpful resource.
The federal Harboring statutes do not appear to cover skipping bail (until an arrest warrant is issued).
>obstruction of justice
Obstruction of justice is a much more complicated topic, but I don't see any statute that would clearly fit this activity.
>aiding and abetting [the escape]
Would require the escape itself to be a crime in both jurisdictions, punishable with deprivation of liberty of more than one year.
IANAL, but I'm curious and able to read. The justice manual on justice.gov is a helpful resource.
Some specific statutes:
- 18 U.S. Code § 1073. Flight to avoid prosecution or giving testimony [1]
- 18 U.S. Code § 752. Instigating or assisting escape [2]
- 18 U.S. Code § 1071. Concealing person from arrest [3]
[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1073 [2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/752 [3] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1071
- 18 U.S. Code § 1073. Flight to avoid prosecution or giving testimony [1]
- 18 U.S. Code § 752. Instigating or assisting escape [2]
- 18 U.S. Code § 1071. Concealing person from arrest [3]
[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1073 [2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/752 [3] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1071
I don't think any of these apply unless the person was in custody or there's a known warrant or process for their arrest.
Therefore it's not clear to me if skipping bail is covered by any of these laws (until after an arrest warrant is issued due to that bail violation).
Therefore it's not clear to me if skipping bail is covered by any of these laws (until after an arrest warrant is issued due to that bail violation).
The Japanese nationalism angle is fascinating. He joined the French Renault with Japanese Nissan and Mitsubishi. He claims that fears that he was attempting to merge the companies further prompted the corruption charges in Japan.
When I first read about this story, I thought it was an open and shut case that Ghosn was guilty. But now I'd like to hear the full story behind the initial accusations.
When I first read about this story, I thought it was an open and shut case that Ghosn was guilty. But now I'd like to hear the full story behind the initial accusations.
It does seem to be very hard to be a foreign CEO in Japan, especially if you're a bit flamboyant and are used to be treated as a superstar.
That said, Ghosn has been accused of very similar things elsewhere: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-sec-nissan/nissan-gho...
The real difference seems to be that he wasn't able to bribe his way out...
That said, Ghosn has been accused of very similar things elsewhere: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-sec-nissan/nissan-gho...
The real difference seems to be that he wasn't able to bribe his way out...
It's not the first time this angle is mentioned or that foreign executives in Japan have similar problems (though not as big but he was the highest profile one as well).
See this from 2012 (with Ghosn being mentioned as the "most successful foreign CEO at a Japanese company". Well...) : https://www.ft.com/content/fb6974b0-9066-11e1-8cdc-00144feab...
See this from 2012 (with Ghosn being mentioned as the "most successful foreign CEO at a Japanese company". Well...) : https://www.ft.com/content/fb6974b0-9066-11e1-8cdc-00144feab...
I don't understand why the media keeps writing these glowing stories about a rich guy using his money to skip bail before a trial and also using that money to make sure he is never tried for the crimes he has been accused of.
Are you kidding? Rich and famous man fallen from grace, boardroom coup, individual takes on the state, retired special operators on a dangerous mission, outlaw on the run. Each one of those tropes in isolation is worth several Hollywood blockbusters. Now a real world story hits all of them? Of course they're going to write about it breathlessly. This is one of the coolest narratives ever to actually happen.
The public doesn't get terribly excited over crimes against shareholders. Ghosn's theory of the case is plausible and a good story, so the press will tend to entertain it. And with two oligarchical factions in a pissing match, one having better access to the tools of state doesn't really elevate its moral standing. In fact, they both seem to own parts of different states.
This plotline would be right at home in Billions. Probably get panned by critics for being over the top, honestly.
The public doesn't get terribly excited over crimes against shareholders. Ghosn's theory of the case is plausible and a good story, so the press will tend to entertain it. And with two oligarchical factions in a pissing match, one having better access to the tools of state doesn't really elevate its moral standing. In fact, they both seem to own parts of different states.
This plotline would be right at home in Billions. Probably get panned by critics for being over the top, honestly.
It's also the kind of story that would (and probably will) make for a blockbuster movie
It's all just so slap-stick dystopic and zeitgeisty. There's a very strong The Road to Gandolfo vibe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Gandolfo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Gandolfo
Because they highlight the extreme injustice of the Japanese justice system, which has been documented in numerous cases and is also reflected in figures - state prosecutors virtually never loose a case, people are kept without access to lawyers for weeks, etc.
Some of this I already knew but I've learned a lot more from the Ghosn case.
Some of this I already knew but I've learned a lot more from the Ghosn case.
Its because you have no clue how the Japanese system works. You are assumed guilty at the time of arrest, you can be detained forever without legal support and the police will urge you everyday to confess. This is not the western style system.
I lived in Japan for many years. Their system has many problems, yet they don't incarcerate as many people as the US.
> yet they don't incarcerate as many people as the US.
This is hardly the only comparison you should make. In terms of legal protection the US is much better than Japan when you are under arrest.
This is hardly the only comparison you should make. In terms of legal protection the US is much better than Japan when you are under arrest.
In my experience the biggest critics of Japan's legal system are people who are not used to being the minority in a country and not having the privileges they usually get. Japan is a wealthy country that doesn't feel any need to treat minorities special because of their money or country of origin like some other poorer countries.
Being part of the majority in the US already makes you less likely to be arrested, murdered by a "scared" police officer and your also less likely of being convicted if you are arrested. The police in Japan love to stop and frisk foreigners on bicycles or who are drinking on the street, but their interactions are atleast respectful and there's no fear of something being planted on you or you being shot.
The Japanese legal system doesn't tend to put people into it unless they believe they can convict. Ghoson was probably not going to get the most fair trial in Japan but he's shown he isn't above breaking the law so I don't know why the media is portraying him as some human rights activist against the Japanese system. The case the courts in Japan had against him just seems stronger.
If he had been in the US or another western country he simply would have used his money to get a deal from the prosecution. When he realized he couldn't he used that money to escape and pay for media PR.
Being part of the majority in the US already makes you less likely to be arrested, murdered by a "scared" police officer and your also less likely of being convicted if you are arrested. The police in Japan love to stop and frisk foreigners on bicycles or who are drinking on the street, but their interactions are atleast respectful and there's no fear of something being planted on you or you being shot.
The Japanese legal system doesn't tend to put people into it unless they believe they can convict. Ghoson was probably not going to get the most fair trial in Japan but he's shown he isn't above breaking the law so I don't know why the media is portraying him as some human rights activist against the Japanese system. The case the courts in Japan had against him just seems stronger.
If he had been in the US or another western country he simply would have used his money to get a deal from the prosecution. When he realized he couldn't he used that money to escape and pay for media PR.
He's a model CEO, speaks 5-6 languages fluently and very successfully ran two major car companies at the same time. How do you not write a story about him?
So what’s the deal with Japan supposedly regularly xraying luggage going onto private jets? That’s not the norm in most of the world.
Generally you xray for security, not for customs purposes. Nobody is going to bring a bomb on their own (or rented) private jet.
Generally you xray for security, not for customs purposes. Nobody is going to bring a bomb on their own (or rented) private jet.
I know that in Germany those security measures are only in place at large public airports. Small airports where private jets are coming and going don't check luggage. I think this problem exists in most countries. This is possibly how Kashoggi's body got flown out or how sheiks return fled daughters and wifes.
(https://www.tagesspiegel.de/gesellschaft/sicherheitsluecken-...)
(https://www.tagesspiegel.de/gesellschaft/sicherheitsluecken-...)
>I think this problem exists in most countries.
Why is this a problem? The purported reason for checking luggage is security. Checking luggage going on to private jets does not provide a similar security benefit as it may for scheduled airline services.
For customs there are separate spot checks, but usually on arrival as it usually doesn’t make much sense to be concerned about illegal exports.
Human trafficking is a separate issue, FBO staff and private jet operators should be trained to combat such just like normal airlines do.
That training works, I’ve been on the receiving end of it as a suspected human trafficker. (My friend told the gate agent to look at my phone for his ticket because he doesn’t own one. We were both briefly detained until the airline had someone talk to him in his native language and verify that he’s there by his own free will)
Why is this a problem? The purported reason for checking luggage is security. Checking luggage going on to private jets does not provide a similar security benefit as it may for scheduled airline services.
For customs there are separate spot checks, but usually on arrival as it usually doesn’t make much sense to be concerned about illegal exports.
Human trafficking is a separate issue, FBO staff and private jet operators should be trained to combat such just like normal airlines do.
That training works, I’ve been on the receiving end of it as a suspected human trafficker. (My friend told the gate agent to look at my phone for his ticket because he doesn’t own one. We were both briefly detained until the airline had someone talk to him in his native language and verify that he’s there by his own free will)
[deleted]
Are you implying it's ok to blow up your own jet? What if it was planted? What if it's smuggling?
I’m implying that people don’t blow up their own jets, this isn’t something that’s worth combatting.
For insurance fraud you’re better off setting the aircraft on fire on the ground or ditching the aircraft in water. Odds are that you’ll end up like Theodore Wright if you start doing that though.
> What if it was planted?
Many (most?) FBOs offer paid security checks if that’s something you’re concerned about. I see no reason for why these should be mandatory.
> What if it's smuggling?
Customs issue, separate from the security checks. Normally customs just does spot checks, it’d be super unusual to check everything.
> What if it was planted?
Many (most?) FBOs offer paid security checks if that’s something you’re concerned about. I see no reason for why these should be mandatory.
> What if it's smuggling?
Customs issue, separate from the security checks. Normally customs just does spot checks, it’d be super unusual to check everything.
> would need extremely generous compensation for the risks involved, perhaps pushing the total cost to $15 million or more.
That's an insane number. And though Ghosn could probably afford that, the cost/benefit would be off kilter.
Private Jet Flights were probably under $200k (source https://jettly.com/charter_cost_estimator)
Hiring a half dozen ex-marines to scout out an escape route, 3 months of planning, maybe $1mm at most...
That's an insane number. And though Ghosn could probably afford that, the cost/benefit would be off kilter.
Private Jet Flights were probably under $200k (source https://jettly.com/charter_cost_estimator)
Hiring a half dozen ex-marines to scout out an escape route, 3 months of planning, maybe $1mm at most...
The cost is because everyone you hire risks going to jail, and they won't face that risk without adequate compensation.
> Hiring a half dozen ex-marines to scout out an escape route, 3 months of planning, maybe $1mm at most...
That's a huge lowball.
That's a huge lowball.
You need to add Ghosn's bail money to that, another 5 million at least.
You might spend a decade in prison or, failing that, you will probably never be able to go to Japan ever again.
And he's 65 years old. It'd be very likely that he would be losing the last good decade of his life - in terms of health - to prison. Even for very healthy and long-lived persons there is a big difference between life at 65 and life at 75. He also has four children and a wife.
His fortune was estimated at around $200 million going in and supposedly stands at closer to $100 million now (per sources like Bloomberg and CNBC). If necessary I'd spend $15 million / 15% of my $100 million for those ten years; that's an easy trade. Be modestly cautious and you'd get it back passively with little worry.
His fortune was estimated at around $200 million going in and supposedly stands at closer to $100 million now (per sources like Bloomberg and CNBC). If necessary I'd spend $15 million / 15% of my $100 million for those ten years; that's an easy trade. Be modestly cautious and you'd get it back passively with little worry.
I am not very comfortable with glorifying this story, why exactly this guy's life and family is more important than the airline professional's?
Although I would watch the movie about it, this whole ordeal feels wrong as it resembles a story where justice is only for the wealthy and collateral damage to unrelated people's lives is O.K. as if those people are not real humans but NPC that just vanish when you're done with them.