Ask HN:How to fire a client who is a scamming gullible people through your work?
11 comments
1) If your contract allows you to, just tell them to seek another company. You can also, as davidj pointed out, just raise your prices to levels they won't pay.
2) See #1
3) Experience. Like you said, it looked fishy from the start. If it looks fishy, that's because it probably is.
4) You can offer those who are programmers work or classes, but it's not really your fault a client of yours is less than ethical.
Many years ago I wrote an article for a local magazine that motivated me to start a blog. A company much like this one called me and set up an interview. I noticed the fishiness right away and played along for a while and, then, wrote the article.
If you have the stomach for a Google translated version,
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl...
2) See #1
3) Experience. Like you said, it looked fishy from the start. If it looks fishy, that's because it probably is.
4) You can offer those who are programmers work or classes, but it's not really your fault a client of yours is less than ethical.
Many years ago I wrote an article for a local magazine that motivated me to start a blog. A company much like this one called me and set up an interview. I noticed the fishiness right away and played along for a while and, then, wrote the article.
If you have the stomach for a Google translated version,
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl...
>"just raise your prices to levels they won't pay."
That suggests that one can be bought for a bigger cut from the scam. It is not consistent with holding an absolute ethical standard. A price is a line in the sand, not a strategic withdrawal.
Promptly and professionally declining all future work is the simplest approach. The explanation need only be "due to other obligations."
That suggests that one can be bought for a bigger cut from the scam. It is not consistent with holding an absolute ethical standard. A price is a line in the sand, not a strategic withdrawal.
Promptly and professionally declining all future work is the simplest approach. The explanation need only be "due to other obligations."
How about a relative ethical standard instead? Raise the price to a ridiculous level, then if they pay, save the lives of 30 infants. Sounds like a worthy moral tradeoff to me.
http://www.givewell.org/international/top-charities/villager...
http://www.givewell.org/international/top-charities/villager...
Interesting, except that the idea was to raise the price so high that the person would not pay it. And of course, saving 30 infants might not offset the damage done by the scam...if one is willing to count dead babies.
We don't have any kind of contract.
Ouch. This isn't good. This is worse than a written contract, because you may have an implied contract, the terms of an implied contract are (obviously) implied, and you may find yourself in a disagreement about the existence of an implied contract or what those implied terms are.
Tread carefully.
Tread carefully.
I believe they can still raise their prices out of the client's reach.
And, in case the scammer decides to pay, they can always donate that money to a fund set up to help the scammer's clients sue them ;-)
There is beauty in symmetry.
And, in case the scammer decides to pay, they can always donate that money to a fund set up to help the scammer's clients sue them ;-)
There is beauty in symmetry.
The easiest way to decline future work is "Thanks, not interested." Consultants don't particularly owe anybody an explanation for saying this -- it is the nature of the beast, just like clients don't particularly need to call you and tell why you they aren't calling you.
Things get trickier if you need to extricate yourself from work you've already agreed to do.
Things get trickier if you need to extricate yourself from work you've already agreed to do.
Talk to a laywer, make sure that you're not by chance accessory to something illegal (likely you're not, but knowing a-e you might be, after all you knew these things before undertaking the work), politely decline future work and forget about taking revenge, it leads nowhere.
Interfering with their ability to operate their business might give them grounds enough to sue you, and weird as it may sound, they may have a warranty claim on you for some time past the delivery of the last piece of software (since you have no contract and this has not been explicitly outlined there may be an implicit component there).
If you're in some position of responsibility with regards to the execution of the scam (it doesn't look like it from what you've described) then you have other fish to fry first to extricate yourself from that.
If it turns out that the company is doing something illegal (and from what you write it definitely sounds like that, already based on the first bunch of items!) you have of course no obligation to continue, and you may have an obligation to contact law enforcement.
I really strongly recommend you talk to a lawyer that is well versed in employment law for your jurisdiction, you may be in more trouble than you think.
Interfering with their ability to operate their business might give them grounds enough to sue you, and weird as it may sound, they may have a warranty claim on you for some time past the delivery of the last piece of software (since you have no contract and this has not been explicitly outlined there may be an implicit component there).
If you're in some position of responsibility with regards to the execution of the scam (it doesn't look like it from what you've described) then you have other fish to fry first to extricate yourself from that.
If it turns out that the company is doing something illegal (and from what you write it definitely sounds like that, already based on the first bunch of items!) you have of course no obligation to continue, and you may have an obligation to contact law enforcement.
I really strongly recommend you talk to a lawyer that is well versed in employment law for your jurisdiction, you may be in more trouble than you think.
Our company is based off of India. So, they can't really sue me, but I don't want things to turn ugly. I'll probably let them be. If possible write a few posts on an anonymous blog to create awareness.
I've been telling these guys that I don't work on illegitimate stuff from the start. And they were like: "yeah, fleecing people who are the most vulnerable sucks, totally". The only regret that I have, is that I have unknowingly helped a few bad guys.
I've been telling these guys that I don't work on illegitimate stuff from the start. And they were like: "yeah, fleecing people who are the most vulnerable sucks, totally". The only regret that I have, is that I have unknowingly helped a few bad guys.
Well, they can't sue you; but, those seeking employment
in the U.S. may be able to do so. Perhaps collecting a
list of those about-to-be-scammed would be helpful to a district attorney? Regardless, I'd obtain counsel.
An interesting thing happened to me about 5 years ago. Someone was applying for a position at my company, and when I did background checks, he turned out to be a rather deceitful fella (and felon). He made the mistake of emailing me from another company's email where he was employed. I followed up, and explained the legal status of their employee to the owner of the 10 person company. She was shocked (not surprised) to hear about their current employee. I can just imagine a case where our screening failed -- I'd want you to make that call...
An interesting thing happened to me about 5 years ago. Someone was applying for a position at my company, and when I did background checks, he turned out to be a rather deceitful fella (and felon). He made the mistake of emailing me from another company's email where he was employed. I followed up, and explained the legal status of their employee to the owner of the 10 person company. She was shocked (not surprised) to hear about their current employee. I can just imagine a case where our screening failed -- I'd want you to make that call...
Deceitful? How so? If it was just because he was a felon then that's a shitty thing you did ratting him out to his employer.
He used an alias and completely falsified his resume.
I also run a small software services firm.
You are in an unpleasant situation. It's like removing a bandaid. Be prepared for the pain and do it anyway.
1. There is no pleasant way to have the discussion. Don't let this stop you from telling them that you don't think you can do the work in good conscience. You don't have to get into deep details about why you think the work is unethical unless you want to. Other than that, say as little as possible.
2. You have no obligation to build more things for this client or any other client. Turning down the work is unpleasant, but it sounds like you need to do it.
3. You can't always spot the scammers. Also, a perfectly good client may become an unethical client over time as conditions change. Be prepared to walk away.
4. I would be careful about trying to undo the damage. There is always the danger of making matters worse for your organization. You should seek legal counsel. Your lawyer will likely tell you not to do anything. You may decide you should do something anyway. If you do, define a process and stick to it and have your lawyer tell you what the implications will be.
Use this as a lesson to always have a service agreement in place. The agreement should have a clause which allows either party to end the agreement with sufficient notice. Because you have no agreement in place, I would recommend you seek legal counsel immediately.
Feel free to contact me (see profile) if you would like to talk about it.
You are in an unpleasant situation. It's like removing a bandaid. Be prepared for the pain and do it anyway.
1. There is no pleasant way to have the discussion. Don't let this stop you from telling them that you don't think you can do the work in good conscience. You don't have to get into deep details about why you think the work is unethical unless you want to. Other than that, say as little as possible.
2. You have no obligation to build more things for this client or any other client. Turning down the work is unpleasant, but it sounds like you need to do it.
3. You can't always spot the scammers. Also, a perfectly good client may become an unethical client over time as conditions change. Be prepared to walk away.
4. I would be careful about trying to undo the damage. There is always the danger of making matters worse for your organization. You should seek legal counsel. Your lawyer will likely tell you not to do anything. You may decide you should do something anyway. If you do, define a process and stick to it and have your lawyer tell you what the implications will be.
Use this as a lesson to always have a service agreement in place. The agreement should have a clause which allows either party to end the agreement with sufficient notice. Because you have no agreement in place, I would recommend you seek legal counsel immediately.
Feel free to contact me (see profile) if you would like to talk about it.
I don't really think you can legitimately take revenge on them or sabotage the site in any manner. Plus they will keep on building these sites, with or without you. If you are lucky, there may be some procedure in your country for reporting them.
Really all you should do is just write them a letter stating that you feel you can no longer work for them and you disagree with their business practices. Something professional and polite.
Once you have made your position clear and walked away there should be no reason for them to bother you afterwards. If they do you should just ignore their emails/calls.
Can you really spot people like this in the future? As you've stated above, there were some suspicions but nothing concrete and you did your research and found nothing. Did you look up their names as well as their company name? Often or not they'll just start a new company when one gets a bad name but you might find mention of their names with previous ... activities.
They lied about their original intent, perhaps they knew you'd get cold feet if you knew their business plan. So perhaps they'll not be surprised when you stop working for them.
Really all you should do is just write them a letter stating that you feel you can no longer work for them and you disagree with their business practices. Something professional and polite.
Once you have made your position clear and walked away there should be no reason for them to bother you afterwards. If they do you should just ignore their emails/calls.
Can you really spot people like this in the future? As you've stated above, there were some suspicions but nothing concrete and you did your research and found nothing. Did you look up their names as well as their company name? Often or not they'll just start a new company when one gets a bad name but you might find mention of their names with previous ... activities.
They lied about their original intent, perhaps they knew you'd get cold feet if you knew their business plan. So perhaps they'll not be surprised when you stop working for them.
Why worry so much? Just show your standing, send them an email saying your work ethic does not match with theirs and you will not do any more work for them. Don't get into a deep discussion on what is wrong, in fact its not a good idea to judge them, so cut it short. If you couldn't spot it this time no worries, people make mistakes. There are many people out there like this, you will get it right the next time.
Yeah I don't want to get into a deep discussion. But, If I tell them the reason, they would probably come up with all sorts of explanations or get defensive and ask me how I came to that conclusion and all. I don't know if there is a way in which I can get it done and over with without a prolonged discussion.
Do it objectively. Find and focus on undeniable reasons, not your gut feeling.
"I don't like your ethics" is subjective and is asking for confrontation.
"The number of complaints registered against you is x and it harms my company to be associated with that. So it's a shame, but we're not going to be able to sign contracts for further work. Don't worry, we'll finish what we've already agreed to do so far but after that we're going to have to call it quits" is objective.
Note that you're not judging them, nor are you even implying that the complaints to be valid. It's just a business decision based on the number of them, and who can control that?
"I don't like your ethics" is subjective and is asking for confrontation.
"The number of complaints registered against you is x and it harms my company to be associated with that. So it's a shame, but we're not going to be able to sign contracts for further work. Don't worry, we'll finish what we've already agreed to do so far but after that we're going to have to call it quits" is objective.
Note that you're not judging them, nor are you even implying that the complaints to be valid. It's just a business decision based on the number of them, and who can control that?
Don't enter a discussion with them. As andyn said, send them a letter; if they argue, don't bother arguing back, just ignore them to the best of your ability. If you have no binding contract, you are under no obligation to continue working for them, nor are you obliged to explain why you refuse to work for them.
The job portal itself showed jobs which were scraped from careerbuilder, monster etc
Sorry, but how could you not know this was a scam from day 1? What sort of a business scrapes other people's content to sell their own products? You made your bed, now lie in it.
Sorry, but how could you not know this was a scam from day 1? What sort of a business scrapes other people's content to sell their own products? You made your bed, now lie in it.
I'm not sure I agree with the 'made your bed, now lie in it' part, but apart from that I have to agree with gaius. This seems such a transparent scam to me that the mind boggles as to how anyone could think otherwise.
They said this was just a thing which the free users could use, this was not a core feature by a long shot. They said the value was in them, getting the job-seekers and the employers together, through their internal network.
That makes no sense either. The jobs are right there on the web for anyone to see already. You don't need to pay someone a fee to pass on your CV, again, obviously a scam from the get go.
Contact the Attorney General of your state (or the equivalent if you're outside US) and describe the scam. Then wait a few months and see your client escorted to federal prison.
You could also get yourself fired rather than fire the client. I wonder what would happen, if the quality of your work started to suffer for some reason? Or if you would suddenly become unresponsive to the client?
There's also the "Italian Strike": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule
You could also get yourself fired rather than fire the client. I wonder what would happen, if the quality of your work started to suffer for some reason? Or if you would suddenly become unresponsive to the client?
There's also the "Italian Strike": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule
what kind of products are these guys trying to sell people?
is it just a premium profile on the job site or what?
is it just a premium profile on the job site or what?
ah the items a through e indicate before any research that its illegal at least in the US..most US states require that any firm asking for payment before giving out employment information be licensed as a employment firm.
Send a letter and walk away..
From experience..
Recently I was scammed by a felon:
You are not responsible for what client did to job seekers your only concern is get away from that relationship before you get burned.
Send a letter and walk away..
From experience..
Recently I was scammed by a felon:
The basic scam was we have a gig for you that will turn into employment completing a web portal/ecommerce social site for private investors and private companies. Was told during interview that $100,000 funding through loan was secured and $700,000 loan was being processed. During first 30 days found out that business owner was a drug dealer felon and that his name was not on bank accounts which also means that funding loan game was a con.
You are not responsible for what client did to job seekers your only concern is get away from that relationship before you get burned.
They told me that thier business model was:
a. They put up ads on newspapers and other media.
b. People looking for jobs call them.
c. An agent tries to sell the caller, one of their products which helps them get a job.
d. They said that if a job seeker buys their "paid product" they hookup the job seeker with one of their employers, meaning that they had contacts through which they patch up job seekers and potential employers.
e. The job portal itself showed jobs which were scraped from careerbuilder, monster etc,.
That's what I knew when our company took up the job. It still sounds like a scam, but I did some research on these guys and found nothing suspicious. So, I went ahead and took up the job, trusted that I was not doing anything wrong, and everything was hunky dory.
Recently I found that the job-seekers didn't actually call them, It was the other way round. These guys got the information about people looking for jobs, and called them up trying to sell their product. Now, when I search for the company, I see a lot of complaints about these guys on ripoffreport.com and 800notes.com.
I am convinced that these guys are cheating people who are desperate to get jobs. And, I am gonna stop working on all their stuff right now. That is what I am gonna do. However, I need help figuring out a few things:
1. What would be the best way to tell them, that I am going to stop working on their projects?
2. Also, these guys have told me recently, that they want more developers and that they want to build more things. So, How do I cut them off completely?
3. How can a company like ours spot these scammers before taking up a job in the future?
4. Lastly, is there anything I can do, to undo the damage I've done to these job-seekers?
P.S Please upvote this so that, I can get this in front of as many eyes as possible. It's an anonymous account.
Thank you!