Tell HN: I can't even get a job offering to work for free
22 comments
No offense, but I think you may have aimed too high in reaching out to the CEO. Unless you honestly think you're going to nab a position on the CEO's staff (which is possible, but unlikely) you should try to get an intro to the person(s) most likely to be able to make you an actual job offer.
I've seen variants of your situation several times in the past. CEO meets someone, is impressed in some manner, passes the contact over to the lower-level person, that person has no time/interest/need for candidate and the process halts, usually after initial expectations were high.
I'll also say I find it a touch odd that after this single experience you find it necessary to post the whole thing here.
tldr; you have some experience, you pursued 1 job opportunity which wasn't even an actual open position req. and then you didn't get hired.
You could fill 100 HN sites with 1000 variants of that exact same story EVERY DAY.
Again, not trying to be harsh, just trying to filter the reality out of this, which is yours is a very non-noteworthy experience in life.
I've seen variants of your situation several times in the past. CEO meets someone, is impressed in some manner, passes the contact over to the lower-level person, that person has no time/interest/need for candidate and the process halts, usually after initial expectations were high.
I'll also say I find it a touch odd that after this single experience you find it necessary to post the whole thing here.
tldr; you have some experience, you pursued 1 job opportunity which wasn't even an actual open position req. and then you didn't get hired.
You could fill 100 HN sites with 1000 variants of that exact same story EVERY DAY.
Again, not trying to be harsh, just trying to filter the reality out of this, which is yours is a very non-noteworthy experience in life.
Indeed. The degree of extrapolation from this one experience is staggering:
You got rejected, so you "can't get a job?" There are people who have experienced a constant stream of rejection letters since losing their jobs in the recession last year.
A few people didn't seem to care about you, so "nobody gives a shit about you?" What about the people who worked with you in previous startups, or the people who wrote up stories about you, or the professors who invested in you in school? What about the 20+ people who voted you up and left 30+ comments trying to help you for free?
I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just think some perspective could help. You can get a job, just not this one. And people do care about you. Call you mom/dad/friend/brother/favorite professor (someone who's been instrumental in your life so far) and ask them if they have time to hear you vent and give you some advice. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least 5 people just from my school years (not that long ago, but still a few years back) that would listen and give advice to me. I can't imagine there isn't a single person in your life who would do the same.
You got rejected, so you "can't get a job?" There are people who have experienced a constant stream of rejection letters since losing their jobs in the recession last year.
A few people didn't seem to care about you, so "nobody gives a shit about you?" What about the people who worked with you in previous startups, or the people who wrote up stories about you, or the professors who invested in you in school? What about the 20+ people who voted you up and left 30+ comments trying to help you for free?
I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just think some perspective could help. You can get a job, just not this one. And people do care about you. Call you mom/dad/friend/brother/favorite professor (someone who's been instrumental in your life so far) and ask them if they have time to hear you vent and give you some advice. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least 5 people just from my school years (not that long ago, but still a few years back) that would listen and give advice to me. I can't imagine there isn't a single person in your life who would do the same.
The difference is I wasn't looking for a "job". I'm a hustler, willing to do what it takes, and I made it clear from the beginning. I wanted the opportunity to learn and do, and money wasn't an issue.
It's a shock to me that I couldn't hustle my way into interning a startup at virtually no cost to them, given my experience. Maybe I'm overrating myself :).
Also, its a small startup, so I would have had to gone through the CEO anyway. If you aren't satisfied with the quality or uniqueness of my story, you have the luxury of flagging, not commenting, or otherwise ignoring it completely :D
It's a shock to me that I couldn't hustle my way into interning a startup at virtually no cost to them, given my experience. Maybe I'm overrating myself :).
Also, its a small startup, so I would have had to gone through the CEO anyway. If you aren't satisfied with the quality or uniqueness of my story, you have the luxury of flagging, not commenting, or otherwise ignoring it completely :D
Just because they won't be paying you money doesn't mean it's cost free or them. Taking on a person into any organization, but especially a small startup, has many associated costs, from the time spent just getting to know you, to teaching you stuff (if you're learning) to the opportunity cost of you taking up some other potential person's slot.
Add to that the risk of not paying someone for work done. Or paying them a token salary but being required to offer them the same health coverage all your employees have (due to plan requirements).
But money is an issue for them. No matter what you bring to the table it takes time and resources on their part to get you integrated into the company. You impose a liability of sorts on the company just by showing up. Ideally, your contribution outweighs that liability and it's a net gain for everyone.
Working for free or a reduced rate can be a good strategy to get in the door, I've used it and advocated for it in the past on comments here. However, there still needs to be a bona-fide position and job you're fulfilling, otherwise you're ultimately just some guy hanging out and getting in the way.
I'm neither satisfied nor dissatisfied with your story. What I was pointing out is that it's not a unique experience. It happens to lots of people all the time, the underlying intent of my statement being don't get discouraged by it or dwell on it.
Working for free or a reduced rate can be a good strategy to get in the door, I've used it and advocated for it in the past on comments here. However, there still needs to be a bona-fide position and job you're fulfilling, otherwise you're ultimately just some guy hanging out and getting in the way.
I'm neither satisfied nor dissatisfied with your story. What I was pointing out is that it's not a unique experience. It happens to lots of people all the time, the underlying intent of my statement being don't get discouraged by it or dwell on it.
Well, there is an alternative to "Working for free".
You could try to find something which has monetary value for them and try to create it by yourself and selling it to them.
It doesn't have to be a technological solution it could be any business related thing - potential customer database, sales leads etc.. (I am not sure what you are good at so...)
Basically, if you have something of value you could always try and sell it to someone - and if it is of value someone will pay for it or at least might consider your contributions worth more than what it costs to have you there.
You could try to find something which has monetary value for them and try to create it by yourself and selling it to them.
It doesn't have to be a technological solution it could be any business related thing - potential customer database, sales leads etc.. (I am not sure what you are good at so...)
Basically, if you have something of value you could always try and sell it to someone - and if it is of value someone will pay for it or at least might consider your contributions worth more than what it costs to have you there.
Lesson from this which I learned from similar experience. Never work for free.
I get few offers for 'free' work, the problem is that time is money. Having to mentor or guide someone, even if you are not paying them, it costs that person time, which they probably cannot afford to spend.
It sounds to me like the company needed a real engineer to get real stuff done, not a business guy. You demo a bunch of projects showing that your friend is a great technical guy. So they go get the friend.
If he's asking you to "figure out what position to fill" it means that he cannot think of where to slot you into. In other words, he can't really figure out what he would be paying you for. But he knows your developer friend is good, because you showed him this.
If he's asking you to "figure out what position to fill" it means that he cannot think of where to slot you into. In other words, he can't really figure out what he would be paying you for. But he knows your developer friend is good, because you showed him this.
Yes, I don't hold any resentment against them for hiring my friend. Good engineers are always in demand everywhere. At the time I initiated contact with them, my friend had just started working, so the chance of hiring him was slim. It happened over time I guess.
A few rules for you.
1. Never keep only one ball in the air.
2. Don't make yourself look desperate. People get suspicious when you want to work for free.
3. If you have a ball in the air, follow up on it. Don't let it sit for 10 weeks.
1. Never keep only one ball in the air.
2. Don't make yourself look desperate. People get suspicious when you want to work for free.
3. If you have a ball in the air, follow up on it. Don't let it sit for 10 weeks.
"10 weeks of sitting and waiting, expecting something to happen"
this was your mistake.
what are your skills? tons of employers on hacker news.
this was your mistake.
what are your skills? tons of employers on hacker news.
Bad luck! One thing I'm sure I've read about networking that really rings true is this [1]:
You don't ask the people you network with to employ you. It's taboo and cheapens the relationship. Instead, you expect to refer people to them and them to refer you to people.
This worked here for your friend — you referred him to this company very effectively! But although they referred you to their marketing guy, it didn't work out. Please don't burn any bridges with the CEO. If he really thinks you are a strong candidate, then a short e-mail expressing your regret things didn't work out with marketing and wondering if he knows anyone who's hiring in the area will get you an interview somewhere.
[1] I'd be interested in a source if anyone has it.
You don't ask the people you network with to employ you. It's taboo and cheapens the relationship. Instead, you expect to refer people to them and them to refer you to people.
This worked here for your friend — you referred him to this company very effectively! But although they referred you to their marketing guy, it didn't work out. Please don't burn any bridges with the CEO. If he really thinks you are a strong candidate, then a short e-mail expressing your regret things didn't work out with marketing and wondering if he knows anyone who's hiring in the area will get you an interview somewhere.
[1] I'd be interested in a source if anyone has it.
It was long, so I skimmed it.
1) Don't offer to work for free. It makes you seem like you have no skills. It's also a major hassle for a company, since they're coming under a lot of fire for how they deal with interns. (Nevermind that the medical industry does much worse and it's perfectly fine for them.)
2) Don't put all your eggs in 1 basket. Expect to take MANY interviews to get your first few jobs, and multiple interviews for jobs after that. NEVER sit and wait.
3) Of course nobody cares about your except you. Companies aren't in business to make you feel good. They're trying to make money. In this case, they actually SENT a rejection letter. It's quite common not to get one.
1) Don't offer to work for free. It makes you seem like you have no skills. It's also a major hassle for a company, since they're coming under a lot of fire for how they deal with interns. (Nevermind that the medical industry does much worse and it's perfectly fine for them.)
2) Don't put all your eggs in 1 basket. Expect to take MANY interviews to get your first few jobs, and multiple interviews for jobs after that. NEVER sit and wait.
3) Of course nobody cares about your except you. Companies aren't in business to make you feel good. They're trying to make money. In this case, they actually SENT a rejection letter. It's quite common not to get one.
This is typical of a sales story I read from books. You were on a sales mission and it seems like:
1) You reached the wrong people. The focus of power in your case (CEO) was not the one making purchasing decisions (the HR guy)
2) You did not solve a pain in your prospect's business or, you could not sufficiently communicate what problem you would solve as an employee. You should have focused on this in your conversations.
I wouldn't say they used you, and you shouldn't be angry. It just did not make business sense for them and you could not make a sufficiently attractive sales pitch to the company as a whole.
1) You reached the wrong people. The focus of power in your case (CEO) was not the one making purchasing decisions (the HR guy)
2) You did not solve a pain in your prospect's business or, you could not sufficiently communicate what problem you would solve as an employee. You should have focused on this in your conversations.
I wouldn't say they used you, and you shouldn't be angry. It just did not make business sense for them and you could not make a sufficiently attractive sales pitch to the company as a whole.
Jobs are like women, if you try too hard - they will loose interest and quickly especially if they already have what they wanted.
Playing hard to get just works - like it or not.
It also seems to me you may have a talent at recognizing talent - you managed to push your friend into that company and you've done that unknowingly - think what you can do if you actually put your mind into find great people and finding a job for them - or even better if they'll work for you even as a freelancer - and you resell their services to various companies as an consultant or contractor.
Playing hard to get just works - like it or not.
It also seems to me you may have a talent at recognizing talent - you managed to push your friend into that company and you've done that unknowingly - think what you can do if you actually put your mind into find great people and finding a job for them - or even better if they'll work for you even as a freelancer - and you resell their services to various companies as an consultant or contractor.
Haha, I actually thought about that - I'll send the company an invoice for my recruitment fee as a headhunter. Hell, if I'm going to be finding people jobs, may as well take a cut right :D
So you are going to try to burn bridges with a non-negotiated (a more accurate term would be fraudulent) invoice? How impressive.
Almost as impressive as your reactions in both a. handling the original situation by waiting ten weeks and b. responding to negative feedback here by telling people essentially "flag or GTFO."
You're quite an endearing person and I just can't see why they passed on the chance to have you around.
Almost as impressive as your reactions in both a. handling the original situation by waiting ten weeks and b. responding to negative feedback here by telling people essentially "flag or GTFO."
You're quite an endearing person and I just can't see why they passed on the chance to have you around.
Well I was actually being sarcastic about sending them the invoice, it was a joke.
As for my response to negative feedback, I simply stated that if my story isn't interesting, he was free to ignore it or flag it. HN has tons of stories submitted every minute. I don't see a reason to comment in some, asking about each's relevancy to HN. Thanks :D
As for my response to negative feedback, I simply stated that if my story isn't interesting, he was free to ignore it or flag it. HN has tons of stories submitted every minute. I don't see a reason to comment in some, asking about each's relevancy to HN. Thanks :D
Fair enough. It just sort of seemed like a very entitled approach all around.
At the most basic level, the cardinal rule if you want to work and succeed at a company is to make your boss' job easier. When asked, "what can you help with?", you said "you'll do anything they need" and thus transferred the work to them to figure something out. That's not good.
They already have enough to do. So if you had said, "I have thought a lot about this, and Ii think I can do x, y and z to start and potentially a, b and c later", my gut tells me the outcome would be different.
Offering to do a free internship is indicative of moxy, but offering to do a free internship and having a plan on how you can contribute is truly valuable.
Best of luck.
They already have enough to do. So if you had said, "I have thought a lot about this, and Ii think I can do x, y and z to start and potentially a, b and c later", my gut tells me the outcome would be different.
Offering to do a free internship is indicative of moxy, but offering to do a free internship and having a plan on how you can contribute is truly valuable.
Best of luck.
What other lessons should I be taking from this?
You answer your own question: But here’s where I failed to recognize the breakdown in communication; the responsibility of handling / recruiting ME, had passed on to a person I’d never met in a different coast.
One lesson: Avoid breakdowns in communication Another lesson: Know where you are in the hiring process at all times, and who has responsibility for your case. A third lesson: Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Always have a backup plan.
You answer your own question: But here’s where I failed to recognize the breakdown in communication; the responsibility of handling / recruiting ME, had passed on to a person I’d never met in a different coast.
One lesson: Avoid breakdowns in communication Another lesson: Know where you are in the hiring process at all times, and who has responsibility for your case. A third lesson: Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Always have a backup plan.
This is my personal opinion, so feel free to disagree:
I would never work for free. I'm good at what I'm doing and I create value for that company/person. No need to give this away for free.
I would never work for free. I'm good at what I'm doing and I create value for that company/person. No need to give this away for free.
You say you are a startup guy and then you just sit and wait? Entrepreneurs are the guys who go out to find problems to solve and then solve them. So you say you did nothing and got nothing in return. That is one side of beeing an entrepreneur.
And by the way, if you really consider doing any work without payment, better call it "internship". Otherwise serious business people will never consider you. Who works for nothing is probably just a waste of time and energy.
And by the way, if you really consider doing any work without payment, better call it "internship". Otherwise serious business people will never consider you. Who works for nothing is probably just a waste of time and energy.
It's not that you "can't even get a job," it's that you can't get that job. Don't give up ... keep pressing on, and you'll find a job that will be even more perfect for you than that one. Or you'll end up creating you're own job ... you're on HN after all ;)
Don't worry about the time you waited, just press on for the future!
Don't worry about the time you waited, just press on for the future!
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If you are willing to work for free, why not consider to work on some open-source projects that interest you? Those projects have a lot of stuff that you can help and it will look good on your resume.
>Nobody gives a shit about you, except YOU. What other lessons should I be taking from this?
Anecdotal evidence is not evidence, even (especially!) if the anecdote is your own.
Anecdotal evidence is not evidence, even (especially!) if the anecdote is your own.
What if its a recurring pattern?
Then you should examine the common element. (hint: its you)
Reminds me of people who have been through a string of failed romantic relationships and resign themselves to resenting the opposite sex. Shows a lack of perspective.
Sorry if this comment comes across as callous, I cant think of another way of expressing this without sounding like a bit of a dick.
Reminds me of people who have been through a string of failed romantic relationships and resign themselves to resenting the opposite sex. Shows a lack of perspective.
Sorry if this comment comes across as callous, I cant think of another way of expressing this without sounding like a bit of a dick.
Actually i was thinking a bit about philosophy and what is truth, but thats for another time.
Its not all about you. There are a lot of reasons you could have been rejected. Its difficult to say what went wrong. You need to try this ten more times. If you get rejected all ten times try modifying your approach.
Anchoring is a sales and marketing technique in which a marketer "anchors" a prospects expectation about pricing by mentioning a similar or related thing and its price.
You anchored at "Free" -- bad move.
You anchored at "Free" -- bad move.
Maybe part of the problem is the 'work for free'. It may suggest to people if you see no value in what you can offer, what value would you be to the company.
I disagree. In the startup community, you basically work for free until funding comes through. I think this guy knew the situation and approached it properly. Offering work is one of the best ways to get hired. Offering to work for free sets the bar lower so its much easier to exceed expectations and get a job after the pro bono project.
So, having been through all this, do you still want to work for this company? The way you got passed off to a "marketing guy" doesn't seem right.
(Name and shame!)
(Name and shame!)
It did bother me when I got passed off via email, pretty much "This is our guy X. I'm going to let these guys take care of you now".
That said, I don't think they're bad people at all, just a crazy busy startup.
That said, I don't think they're bad people at all, just a crazy busy startup.
Nobody owes you a damn thing. Suck it up, move on, and don't get so emotionally wrapped in a single opportunity ever again. You'll be disappointed every time. Job searching is a numbers game. The more opportunities you pursue, the greater the chance that you'll land one.
Background: I’m 23, graduated last year with a business degree. I have a bunch of startup experience, having projects mentioned on Techcrunch, TIME, CNet, CBSNews, and more. After a summer of working on a startup with my friend and technical partner, he decided to get a job with one of the big mobile handset developers. That left me with a choice; do something on my own (with limited technical ability) or get a job and learn something.
In September, I decided to give it shot and sent email out to the CEO of a local startup. I figured I wanted to be a part of the growing social product space, so a social analytics company made sense. I kidd you not, the subject of my email was “I want to work for you for free!”. It worked, and I got the attention I wanted. I recall the skype conversation we had later that week. We went over my life story, and he complimented, even gushed over me. “Wow, you guys are rockstars”, “I wish you would have told me sooner, I would have invested in you guys”, “You guys remind me of myself in the 90’s”, “This is exactly how I tell people to find jobs they want”. We traded business stories, discussed the local startup scene. It was nice to hear, and it felt honest and sincere. If he liked me that much, then surely he would have something for me. I introduce him to my partner through email.
Soon after, I’m meeting the CEO and his #1 for the area (they have another office in California). My friend is also driving into the city later for dinner with the pair after work. We chat, he demos the product, tells me all about the operations and such. I refresh him about my crazy past projects. They ask me what I want to do as a role, I tell them I’m open and flexible. Money doesn’t matter to me, I just want the opportunity to learn and experience. “Okay then, we’ll you put you in touch with our marketing guy and see if he has anything for you”. I left feeling pretty happy and confident, having built a positive rapport and established a relationship with someone who “gets it”.
After another skype chat with the head of marketing, I’m even left with a weekend assignment; figure out what position I’d like to fill for the company, and give suggestions on what I’d do for the homepage and product. I indeed brainstorm my role (product development!) and even Photoshop a mockup of a new homepage design, just because I felt like it. But here’s where I failed to recognize the breakdown in communication; the responsibility of handling / recruiting ME, had passed on to a person I’d never met in a different coast. The buck had been passed, as it were. I’d been wiped clear of the conscience of the people I’d attracted from the beginning. Weeks would go by, I would get an occasional email saying “things are crazy, we’re setting Q1 goals.” Oh, the life of a startup I’d assume. Its ok, they’ll get to me eventually. All the while, they corresponded with my friend in the same manner. They were wooing him, and after working only 3 months at a multinational mobile phone developer, he would quit to accept their job offer. That happened this week, leaving me wondering if I should shoot them an email to get things rolling again. I did, and several hours ago, they replied.
“Oh, you didn’t get the email we sent last month? Please see the following:…” It was a rejection letter. A nicely worded, complimentary letter in which apparently I have “rare, entrepreneurial qualities that will make you successful” and that I should “keep trucking”.
Fuck me. 10 weeks of sitting and waiting, expecting something to happen, and I’d only looked to do 1 other interview because I was so sure I wanted to work for this company. Naturally, I have a very emotional response to the rejection; “don’t tell me I’m awesome, but that you don’t have anything for me”…”make sure your interviewees get the godamn rejection letter, so they don’t feel like a dumbass when they email members of your company, asking what’s up”. And don’t forget the ugly, awkward feeling of having your friend get a job at the company you introduced him to and initiated contact with (feelings of “was I used? Did they ever give a shit about me?”).
Lesson learned I suppose. Nobody gives a shit about you, except YOU. What other lessons should I be taking from this? Don't introduce your friends to companies you want to work for until you have a job there first? LOL. Sigh, I don't even know what to think. In what world can you be complimented that heavily, and not even offered an internship. I can't even get a job offering to work for free.