Irony punctuation(en.wikipedia.org)
en.wikipedia.org
Irony punctuation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation
5 comments
Where's the fun in sarcasm if you have to point it out?
This is, of course, why it hasn't caught on in the ~400+ years since it was originally proposed.
Also, many of those who have at some point proposed it may or may not have been doing so ironically, so at some point it gets pretty confusing.
Also, many of those who have at some point proposed it may or may not have been doing so ironically, so at some point it gets pretty confusing.
Well, there’s this widely used gem: ‘;-)’
Why did people suddenly adopt a symbol for clearly marking their irony when before they have not?
My hypothesis is that prior to the mass adoption of mobile phones (SMS) and the Internet (IM, e-mail, any form of chat and discussion) it was nearly impossible (well, unpractical) to have informal conversations with someone in written form. Even letters or postcards are very much unlike e-mail, a lot more formal, for the most part carefully crafted and lacking the immediacy of our new forms of written communication. We used speech for all our informal conversations up until very recently.
Everyone knows how to mark speech as ironic. You can literally wink, change the tone of your voice or just start grinning after everyone starts looking at you with disbelief. When authors wanted to use irony in their works they had the time, space and skills to create a setup which marks something as irony, a typographic sign would probably have seemed like cheating to them (much like overuse of the exclamation mark would).
But suddenly there are all these people who are not authors and who write all the time if they want to have a conversation. Time, space and skills – the three of those are not readily available when chatting. (And why should they, why should you suddenly invest more time to conduct your informal conversation just because it is in written form?)
I think it works quite well, actually, for what it is, compared to its cousin in spoken informal conversations at least. Sure, it’s not even the same ballpark as some of the irony you can find in literary masterpieces but hardly anything we say in everyday conversations ever is.
(For testing my hypothesis I would suggest finding written pre-Internet conversations – if the is at all possible – and looking for any marks for irony or tone of voice. Pretty much seems like an impossible thing to check, if you ask me.)
Why did people suddenly adopt a symbol for clearly marking their irony when before they have not?
My hypothesis is that prior to the mass adoption of mobile phones (SMS) and the Internet (IM, e-mail, any form of chat and discussion) it was nearly impossible (well, unpractical) to have informal conversations with someone in written form. Even letters or postcards are very much unlike e-mail, a lot more formal, for the most part carefully crafted and lacking the immediacy of our new forms of written communication. We used speech for all our informal conversations up until very recently.
Everyone knows how to mark speech as ironic. You can literally wink, change the tone of your voice or just start grinning after everyone starts looking at you with disbelief. When authors wanted to use irony in their works they had the time, space and skills to create a setup which marks something as irony, a typographic sign would probably have seemed like cheating to them (much like overuse of the exclamation mark would).
But suddenly there are all these people who are not authors and who write all the time if they want to have a conversation. Time, space and skills – the three of those are not readily available when chatting. (And why should they, why should you suddenly invest more time to conduct your informal conversation just because it is in written form?)
I think it works quite well, actually, for what it is, compared to its cousin in spoken informal conversations at least. Sure, it’s not even the same ballpark as some of the irony you can find in literary masterpieces but hardly anything we say in everyday conversations ever is.
(For testing my hypothesis I would suggest finding written pre-Internet conversations – if the is at all possible – and looking for any marks for irony or tone of voice. Pretty much seems like an impossible thing to check, if you ask me.)
Sarcasm is most interesting when you don't "wink, change the tone of your voice or just start grinning". Good sarcasm is detectable as such even without any change in inflection, which is why there is no need to mark it in writing.
I also disagree that smileys are widely used to mark sarcasm; they mark any sort of situation where you might smile. Most of the time, this is just some sort of happy statement, like "now go get some sleep ;)" when someone emails you at 3 in the morning.
I also disagree that smileys are widely used to mark sarcasm; they mark any sort of situation where you might smile. Most of the time, this is just some sort of happy statement, like "now go get some sleep ;)" when someone emails you at 3 in the morning.
Sarcasm is most interesting when you don't "wink, change the tone of your voice or just start grinning".
Whoa there, jrockway. Soon you'll be proposing sitcoms without laugh tracks.
Whoa there, jrockway. Soon you'll be proposing sitcoms without laugh tracks.
I’m not sure you are disagreeing with me. ‘Good’ (using scare quotes here because I think the fake kind is also a valuable tool) sarcasm is fucking hard to pull off! That’s why you hardly ever see it. That’s why writers didn’t need a typographic sign.
And sure, the winking smiley is also used for other things but do you really want to claim that it’s not widely used for marking irony? If it were easier to search for ‘;-)’ I would probably be able to quote a few dozen examples here on HN alone in no time.
And sure, the winking smiley is also used for other things but do you really want to claim that it’s not widely used for marking irony? If it were easier to search for ‘;-)’ I would probably be able to quote a few dozen examples here on HN alone in no time.
I would probably be able to quote a few dozen examples here on HN alone in no time.
Maybe those people are just using it wrong ;)
Maybe those people are just using it wrong ;)
See, here’s how I would parse that: Clearly, there is no way marking sarcasm with a winking smiley could be considered ‘using it wrong’ because there isn’t anything like rules for emoticon usage (and if there were that would be stupid), hence I’m tacitly agreeing with your comment.
Amazing ;-)
Amazing ;-)
Self defense. The ones who don't (can't ?) get the jokes are generally quite dangerous...
Thank god. I thought this was going to be a link to the "SarcMark"
http://02d9656.netsoljsp.com/SarcMark/modules/user/commonfil...
That movement was just really poorly thought out. Yeah, let's choose some bizarre symbol and charge people to use it on their computers... but only people who have also paid for the software can also see it. Yeah, real smart there⸮
I do, however, approve of the irony mark. I mapped pidgin to autoreplace ?/ with it in IMs. That way everyone gets to see my snobbery.
That movement was just really poorly thought out. Yeah, let's choose some bizarre symbol and charge people to use it on their computers... but only people who have also paid for the software can also see it. Yeah, real smart there⸮
I do, however, approve of the irony mark. I mapped pidgin to autoreplace ?/ with it in IMs. That way everyone gets to see my snobbery.
I also don't see how they got so much media coverage. I think it was 'cause the idea was so blatantly stupid that people thought it was a joke. It was on local news here in the Metro detroit area and it got newspaper articles written up. That's all precious media coverage that could go to my web app instead. Their website is also horrible.
I think this is relevant: http://www.snopes.com/computer/internet/smiley.asp
I love this⸮
Ironically, the irony punctuation mark shows up as a square on all browsers that I try.
(yes I know - that's not actually ironic).
(yes I know - that's not actually ironic).
It only does this for me on Windows. On Linux, I see the proper glyph.