Uber Is a Taxi Service, the E.C.J. Says, in Major Setback to Firm(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Uber Is a Taxi Service, the E.C.J. Says, in Major Setback to Firm
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/20/business/uber-europe-ecj.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fworld
29 comments
This is a dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15968034
It feels like the ruling is essentially stating the obvious.
Is it though? Why don’t you see consumers or some other group besides the local taxi interest taking them to court?
To me all this stinks of using the courts to protect the market share of the taxi unions because they are unable to do it from years of protectionism.
To me all this stinks of using the courts to protect the market share of the taxi unions because they are unable to do it from years of protectionism.
...and to me this looks like they've (quite reasonably) reached the decision that skirting labor and transportation regulations is not a legally valid form of "disruption". (See also: Airbnb's ongoing regulatory tussles with various municipalities over what constitutes a "hotel".)
That's not to say that the local taxi interest doesn't have a vested interest in pursuing this - they most certainly do, and they're just as certainly protecting their own interests. Even still, nothing about this ruling strikes me as "protectionist": the court is simply saying "you operate a taxi service, therefore you must follow the same rules as other taxi services". This is quite different from "you operate a taxi service!? Too bad, you can't operate here."
IMHO, "innovation", "competition", "disruption", etc. are not valid reasons to completely ignore laws. I have little sympathy for Uber at this point, since their modus operandi at every turn has been "ignore the laws until someone rules otherwise, then continue to ignore the laws until someone enforces the ruling". That, quite frankly, is bullshit, especially in a case where the relevant laws exist primarily to protect public safety and the rights of employees. (Contrast this with copyright law, which has a rich history of overreach and regulatory capture, and where there is a much stronger moral argument that the laws are unjust.)
That's not to say that the local taxi interest doesn't have a vested interest in pursuing this - they most certainly do, and they're just as certainly protecting their own interests. Even still, nothing about this ruling strikes me as "protectionist": the court is simply saying "you operate a taxi service, therefore you must follow the same rules as other taxi services". This is quite different from "you operate a taxi service!? Too bad, you can't operate here."
IMHO, "innovation", "competition", "disruption", etc. are not valid reasons to completely ignore laws. I have little sympathy for Uber at this point, since their modus operandi at every turn has been "ignore the laws until someone rules otherwise, then continue to ignore the laws until someone enforces the ruling". That, quite frankly, is bullshit, especially in a case where the relevant laws exist primarily to protect public safety and the rights of employees. (Contrast this with copyright law, which has a rich history of overreach and regulatory capture, and where there is a much stronger moral argument that the laws are unjust.)
...and to me, your opinion is the polar opposite of everything I believe and quite different than the libertarianism tech grew up with.
Laws should always be challenged and dismantled whenever possible. The state should be minimized. That taxis were ever regulated is totally insane and their complete lack of customer service prior to Uber's existence is evidence of that.
You can turn your back on innovation and disruption but some of us will continue to fight for it. Regardless, you can't put the tech genie back in the bottle, so while people like you can make life more difficult for people like me, you can't actually stop technology from innovating.
Laws should always be challenged and dismantled whenever possible. The state should be minimized. That taxis were ever regulated is totally insane and their complete lack of customer service prior to Uber's existence is evidence of that.
You can turn your back on innovation and disruption but some of us will continue to fight for it. Regardless, you can't put the tech genie back in the bottle, so while people like you can make life more difficult for people like me, you can't actually stop technology from innovating.
> your opinion is the polar opposite of everything I believe and quite different than the libertarianism tech grew up with.
> Laws should always be challenged and dismantled whenever possible.
That's a rare belief for a libertarian; like most other ideologies, libertarians usually believe only laws which conflict with their ideology should be challenged and dismantled.
The (capitalist) model of property rights libertarians prefer is itself supported by law, which is quite possible to challenge and dismantle (I can point to organized groups who challenge it everywhere and would dismantle it if they had adequate support), but libertarians don't generally participate in that challenging and dismantling.
> Laws should always be challenged and dismantled whenever possible.
That's a rare belief for a libertarian; like most other ideologies, libertarians usually believe only laws which conflict with their ideology should be challenged and dismantled.
The (capitalist) model of property rights libertarians prefer is itself supported by law, which is quite possible to challenge and dismantle (I can point to organized groups who challenge it everywhere and would dismantle it if they had adequate support), but libertarians don't generally participate in that challenging and dismantling.
I think we spent a lot of time challenging and trying to dismantle digital property rights in the early consumer internet/P2P era.
You're correct in that the laws most likely to be challenged are those in the way of technological progress. I'd also say the laws that empower a growing state apparatus are also likely to be targeted.
The regulations in question here look like an obvious overstep of government into consumer affairs and a resistance against technological and market progress.
I still don't know how anyone who has ever taken a pre-Uber taxi could make an argument against Uber. The market forces alone they've created have improved service 10X in even non-Uber options.
You're correct in that the laws most likely to be challenged are those in the way of technological progress. I'd also say the laws that empower a growing state apparatus are also likely to be targeted.
The regulations in question here look like an obvious overstep of government into consumer affairs and a resistance against technological and market progress.
I still don't know how anyone who has ever taken a pre-Uber taxi could make an argument against Uber. The market forces alone they've created have improved service 10X in even non-Uber options.
> Laws should always be challenged and dismantled whenever possible. The state should be minimized. That taxis were ever regulated is totally insane and their complete lack of customer service prior to Uber's existence is evidence of that.
When people tell me they can't believe things were regulated, very often it seems like they're not actually sure what the regulations actually are, and why they're there. A lot of regulation covers basic common sense requirements based on what society has learned as a whole. That's not to say all regulation is, and I'm certainly not one to argue against a need for massive red-tape cutting.
So:
.. You don't think Taxi drivers should be mandated to have background checks, to ensure they're not sex offenders, thieves etc. It's really hard to tell when you see someone face-to-face. We've seen Uber already repeatedly struggling with this, being a regular problem early on for them, and eventually giving in to peer pressure to do what Taxicab companies already do, what laws already require. Why should we (the consumer) have to go through the same process over and over again with every Tom, Dick and Harry company that decides they want to drive people around for money? Uber is becoming entrenched, prices are rising. Eventually a new company is going to come along and disrupt the market out from underneath them in some way we don't anticipate right now, and yet again we'll go through sexual harassment etc. of passengers that'll continue for years until the company comes under sufficient pressure to fix their shit.
.. You don't think Taxi drivers should be mandated to have business insurance so that should the driver crash when you're in the vehicle, you're covered?
.. You don't think Taxi drivers should be required to have a vehicle regularly maintained and in good _safe_ working order, so that you're significantly less likely to be involved in an accident, and when it does you're less likely to be seriously injured? Remember that most things that wear out on a vehicle aren't plain to see. It's really easy to keep a car spick and span, while it's about to fall apart underneath.
.. You don't think Taxi cab drivers should be restricted to working no more than 12 hour days, so that they're not falling asleep at the wheel and causing accidents?
When people tell me they can't believe things were regulated, very often it seems like they're not actually sure what the regulations actually are, and why they're there. A lot of regulation covers basic common sense requirements based on what society has learned as a whole. That's not to say all regulation is, and I'm certainly not one to argue against a need for massive red-tape cutting.
So:
.. You don't think Taxi drivers should be mandated to have background checks, to ensure they're not sex offenders, thieves etc. It's really hard to tell when you see someone face-to-face. We've seen Uber already repeatedly struggling with this, being a regular problem early on for them, and eventually giving in to peer pressure to do what Taxicab companies already do, what laws already require. Why should we (the consumer) have to go through the same process over and over again with every Tom, Dick and Harry company that decides they want to drive people around for money? Uber is becoming entrenched, prices are rising. Eventually a new company is going to come along and disrupt the market out from underneath them in some way we don't anticipate right now, and yet again we'll go through sexual harassment etc. of passengers that'll continue for years until the company comes under sufficient pressure to fix their shit.
.. You don't think Taxi drivers should be mandated to have business insurance so that should the driver crash when you're in the vehicle, you're covered?
.. You don't think Taxi drivers should be required to have a vehicle regularly maintained and in good _safe_ working order, so that you're significantly less likely to be involved in an accident, and when it does you're less likely to be seriously injured? Remember that most things that wear out on a vehicle aren't plain to see. It's really easy to keep a car spick and span, while it's about to fall apart underneath.
.. You don't think Taxi cab drivers should be restricted to working no more than 12 hour days, so that they're not falling asleep at the wheel and causing accidents?
No. I don't think those things. I think I as a consumer can pick the ride option I want. I also think Uber benefits from providing a safe and reliable service (which they do).
Have you ever taken an Uber? Have you ever taken a cab? Every Uber ride I've ever taken (a lot, in many different cities) has been more or less pleasant and friction free. Most cab rides have been quite the opposite.
I 100% feel safer in an Uber than in a taxi. Try paying a taxi with a credit card some day and let us know how that goes. At best you'll have to argue with the driver to accept it. Most likely the machine will be "broken".
Have you ever taken an Uber? Have you ever taken a cab? Every Uber ride I've ever taken (a lot, in many different cities) has been more or less pleasant and friction free. Most cab rides have been quite the opposite.
I 100% feel safer in an Uber than in a taxi. Try paying a taxi with a credit card some day and let us know how that goes. At best you'll have to argue with the driver to accept it. Most likely the machine will be "broken".
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Looking at 1) the valuation of AirBnB/Uber 2) the amount of actual penalties the courts have meted out, it turns out "completely ignore a subset of laws" is a great way to riches
Because the taxi unions have a far less diffuse interest than the general public does.
Look, I have no idea if the existing rules are sensible or just erected as barriers to new entrants. Probably a bit of both. However, in general, businesses and individuals can't just say: "Nope, the law is stupid so I'll just ignore it."
I may think that things like liquor licenses for restaurants are a scam in many cities in the US (and they often are) but I'll get shut down in a hurry if I serve alcohol without one.
Look, I have no idea if the existing rules are sensible or just erected as barriers to new entrants. Probably a bit of both. However, in general, businesses and individuals can't just say: "Nope, the law is stupid so I'll just ignore it."
I may think that things like liquor licenses for restaurants are a scam in many cities in the US (and they often are) but I'll get shut down in a hurry if I serve alcohol without one.
> Why don’t you see consumers or some other group besides the local taxi interest taking them to court?
I've always seen Uber as a taxi service and I have no interest in taking them to court. I've never been tempted to take a traditional taxi service to court either though.
I don't think that really matters though. What is a taxi service? My dictionary says a taxicab is a car licensed to transport passengers in return for payment of a fare. That fits pretty closely to how I use Uber, so I'm fine with calling it a taxi service. It's a duck-typing perspective I guess.
I've always seen Uber as a taxi service and I have no interest in taking them to court. I've never been tempted to take a traditional taxi service to court either though.
I don't think that really matters though. What is a taxi service? My dictionary says a taxicab is a car licensed to transport passengers in return for payment of a fare. That fits pretty closely to how I use Uber, so I'm fine with calling it a taxi service. It's a duck-typing perspective I guess.
Same activity, same regulations. It isn't a complex legal principle.
> Is it though? Why don’t you see consumers or some other group besides the local taxi interest taking them to court?
Probably because they often _don't_ need to take them to court. They clarify existing or pass new laws to make the definition of a taxi clearer, or explicitly include "Ridesharing". Also elsewhere Uber has been spending lots of money lobbying government and voters to persuade them to dodge it.
It's all utter bullshit. Uber is a Taxi company. You know it, I know it. That they've managed to persuade government to look the other way while they flaunt important safety regulations has been utterly ludicrous.
I suspect they only got away with it _because_ Taxi unions have been too powerful, and everyone generally hates taking Taxis.
Probably because they often _don't_ need to take them to court. They clarify existing or pass new laws to make the definition of a taxi clearer, or explicitly include "Ridesharing". Also elsewhere Uber has been spending lots of money lobbying government and voters to persuade them to dodge it.
It's all utter bullshit. Uber is a Taxi company. You know it, I know it. That they've managed to persuade government to look the other way while they flaunt important safety regulations has been utterly ludicrous.
I suspect they only got away with it _because_ Taxi unions have been too powerful, and everyone generally hates taking Taxis.
It is largely a matter of standing. The Unfair Commercial Practices Directives leaves most of the details up to member states, but has a hard requirement that competitors have standing to bring legal action against unfair commercial practices [1]. Spain – where this case originated – also allows for consumer organizations to bring suit (but not individual consumers), but those will generally focus their resources on areas where competitors fail to act.
[1] Which was already a common approach in Europe before that directive was enacted.
[1] Which was already a common approach in Europe before that directive was enacted.
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If you think of Uber as a taxi union you can be less empathic to them, the same way people don't cheer for the taxi companies.
Here's a Reuters article on this: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-uber-court/uber-dealt-blo...
I'm not sure "major setback" applies. They lost a court case, but according to Uber they're already complying with transportation services regulations anyway. If that's accurate it seems like the ruling is a formality in some sense, and the Reuters title is more accurate. It is a blow, but in the sense that they lost the case, not that it substantially affects how they operate.
I'm not sure "major setback" applies. They lost a court case, but according to Uber they're already complying with transportation services regulations anyway. If that's accurate it seems like the ruling is a formality in some sense, and the Reuters title is more accurate. It is a blow, but in the sense that they lost the case, not that it substantially affects how they operate.
Of course it will affect them - they will have to ensure their drivers are fit to drive at all times. Drivers will not be able to work extended periods of times and Uber may be forced through this to pay for holidays + sick leave.
Not that Uber can be trusted, but they claim they're already in compliance with pertinent laws. In other words the effects have already occurred. It seems like this case was an attempt to reverse that condition and they lost.
Yes this is a very good point. I asked an Uber driver in London if they put any restrictions on driving time and he confirmed that they did not. Might have to rethink that one.
In Helsinki Uber drivers ask you to sit in the front because they don't want to get stopped for operating an illegal taxi.
but according to Uber they're already complying with transportation services regulations anyway
Of course Uber PR spun this with yet some more cringeworthy fluff.
Uber says they already mostly comply:
"The ruling is the first to apply to Uber across the European Union. In a statement, the company said that it already operated under the transportation law of most European countries in which it did business, and that the ruling would have little impact. It added that it would continue a dialogue with cities across Europe for its services."
"The ruling is the first to apply to Uber across the European Union. In a statement, the company said that it already operated under the transportation law of most European countries in which it did business, and that the ruling would have little impact. It added that it would continue a dialogue with cities across Europe for its services."
Rideshare companies seem more like huge dispatching services to me. Are these companies then all taxi services too? https://www.google.com/search?q=dispatching+software+for+tax...
I think there might be a slight difference in that Uber also takes care of hiring drivers
No, the ECJ doesn't say that it is a taxi service, the ECJ says that Uber should be regulated as a transport service instead of an information service