NYC proposes rule to collect GPS data on car service passengers(freedom-to-tinker.com)
freedom-to-tinker.com
NYC proposes rule to collect GPS data on car service passengers
https://freedom-to-tinker.com/2017/01/04/nyc-to-collect-gps-data-on-car-service-passengers-good-intentions-gone-awry-or-something-else/
42 comments
> Regular taxis in NYC already give this information.
All the more reason for a better service to differentiate themselves by not doing so.
> It is about tracking the taxis, not the customers.
And wiretapping eavesdrops on telephones, not people?
All the more reason for a better service to differentiate themselves by not doing so.
> It is about tracking the taxis, not the customers.
And wiretapping eavesdrops on telephones, not people?
Before everyone cries foul, let's not forget that what the government is proposing to collect is just a small subset of the data that private companies like Uber and Lyft already have on you. There it's accessible by untold number of people for all kinds of unregulated purposes.
Uber isn't backed by an army, secret courts, and they can't decide to throw me in jail.
Edit: Fix my autocorrect word choice.
Edit: Fix my autocorrect word choice.
> Uber isn't backed by an army, secret courts, and they can't decide to through me in jail.
You have it backwards (and BTW NYC doesn't have and army nor secret courts).
Yes, the us gov sadly has secret courts and of course an army et al. But it's also subject to some constraints, such as the very one that gives rise to this blog post: government agencies typically have to announce their plans and have them open for discussion.
Does the process always work? Of course not! But it's a lot more transparent than how corporations can be. People are outraged by secret spying, secret torture etc. And why do governments do that stuff in secret? Because they know it will cause outrage. Some governments (e.g. DDR & Norks to name a few), do it overtly because the very knowledge of the spying is part of its value.
Whereas there are few tools to control the same actions by corporate entities.
I do expect an erosion of these secret programs over the next 20 years. However they may be overshadowed by corporate databases.
Our governments, being made of people, are hardly right all the time. But neither are our corporations (and they are indeed our corporations, regardless of capital structure because they are permitted to act in the public sphere) as they are also machines operated by people. A foolish knee-jerk reaction in favor of one over the other is intellectually stupid.
You have it backwards (and BTW NYC doesn't have and army nor secret courts).
Yes, the us gov sadly has secret courts and of course an army et al. But it's also subject to some constraints, such as the very one that gives rise to this blog post: government agencies typically have to announce their plans and have them open for discussion.
Does the process always work? Of course not! But it's a lot more transparent than how corporations can be. People are outraged by secret spying, secret torture etc. And why do governments do that stuff in secret? Because they know it will cause outrage. Some governments (e.g. DDR & Norks to name a few), do it overtly because the very knowledge of the spying is part of its value.
Whereas there are few tools to control the same actions by corporate entities.
I do expect an erosion of these secret programs over the next 20 years. However they may be overshadowed by corporate databases.
Our governments, being made of people, are hardly right all the time. But neither are our corporations (and they are indeed our corporations, regardless of capital structure because they are permitted to act in the public sphere) as they are also machines operated by people. A foolish knee-jerk reaction in favor of one over the other is intellectually stupid.
"I have my own army in the NYPD, which is the seventh largest army in the world..."
- Former NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg
- Former NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg
A couple of airstrikes from a real military would clear that right up.
NY,NEW YORK,2320-01-074-7642,"TRUCK,ARMORED",1,Each,65070,2012-06-15
NY,NEW YORK,2350-01-069-6931,"CARRIER,107 MILLIMETER MORTAR",1,Each,205400,2012-06-15
Now, I'm not sure if that includes the actual mortar or just the vehical and I know a real airstrike and a mortar strike aren't exactly the same thing..... but it's close and definetly not settling.
[0] - https://github.com/TheUpshot/Military-Surplus-Gear
I am a big critic of both the militarization of police and tough-talking billionaires. No worries!
The joke is that the NYPD could very well "airstike" you so I'm not sure why you'd think a "airstrikes from a real military" would change our mind.
> BTW NYC doesn't have and army nor secret courts
Once data is in the hands of NYC, it can be freely shared with the federal government.
Once data is in the hands of NYC, it can be freely shared with the federal government.
Once two Federal law enforcement agents decide the information is relevant, Uber will un-freely share with the Federal government.
What's hilarious about this statement to me is that there is a real, transparent political debate happening in NYC right now because the city government wants to prevent data from being shared with the incoming federal government (look up "IDNYC"). Citizens are participating in that actual debate because they can.
I trust my city government far more than I trust Uber to protect my data.
I trust my city government far more than I trust Uber to protect my data.
Why do you trust your city government ? I cant see any one fighting the feds and winning here.
I wouldnt trust either.
Once data is in the hands of uber, it can also be shared with the government.
AND: in today's news, Uber bribes local governments with data: http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/08/technology/uber-movement-t...
>> Uber isn't backed by an army, secret courts, and they can't decide to through me in jail.
> You have it backwards
How do I enlist in Uber's army? How do I become a judge? How do I get a badge for Uber's police force? I'm quite apt with firearms knowladge and if they need an armorer they can give me a call.
Or Uber doesn't have an army so I don't think I have it backwards.
> You have it backwards
How do I enlist in Uber's army? How do I become a judge? How do I get a badge for Uber's police force? I'm quite apt with firearms knowladge and if they need an armorer they can give me a call.
Or Uber doesn't have an army so I don't think I have it backwards.
Uber is also run by unelected creeps (see "God-mode"), who will happily sell their data to the government and whomever else is willing to pay. And they can probably force you into binding arbitration before what is essentially one of their employees. Tradeoffs...
> Uber is also run by unelected creeps
Of course no elected officials are morally questionably in any way.
Of course no elected officials are morally questionably in any way.
Yes but someone could pay or coerece a weak link to extract the data. The DEA has been known to engage in this behavior: https://oig.justice.gov/reports/2016/f160107b.pdf, (even for things like reporting customers who are carrying large amounts of cash but no drugs).
Is your argument that "the government could do this immoral thing under the table, so we might as well let them do it over the table"?
I'm not sure I buy that line of reasoning. I would rather just say that the government can't legally do this immoral thing, and prosecute the government actors involved if we catch them doing it.
I'm not sure I buy that line of reasoning. I would rather just say that the government can't legally do this immoral thing, and prosecute the government actors involved if we catch them doing it.
That is indeed my argument. In a democracy anything is possible if the people vote for it. However we need to make the actions of elected officials public. For example while I personally oppose the NSA's warrantless wiretapping program, I would've been less angry (and more sad) had it passed through congressional means with an open debate the public was aware of.
I also do not think that violating (whether it be through amendments or other actions) the constitution's intent is inherently immoral, as the constitution has little, if any morality built into it.
I also do not think that violating (whether it be through amendments or other actions) the constitution's intent is inherently immoral, as the constitution has little, if any morality built into it.
Its obvious you and many others here are statists. And its fine if thats how you want to live but I dont. So instead of endless debate on this/UBI/RTBF/etc, we need to work on a (better) framework to decouple land from politics i.e. Secession Protocol.
> Yes but someone could pay or coerece a weak link to extract the data
Or just pass a law to force them to do it and not spend any money.
Or just pass a law to force them to do it and not spend any money.
Nor is the NYC mayor.
The government cannot effectively regulate commerce, which is a core function of government, without access to relevant information.
The contempt for the law that Uber in particular exercises makes this need even more obvious. If the supposed move to robot cars is real and not just bullshit to scam investors, it becomes exponentially more important, as there will be no witnesses to whatever takes place.
The government cannot effectively regulate commerce, which is a core function of government, without access to relevant information.
The contempt for the law that Uber in particular exercises makes this need even more obvious. If the supposed move to robot cars is real and not just bullshit to scam investors, it becomes exponentially more important, as there will be no witnesses to whatever takes place.
I elect to give my data to Uber et al. I do not elect to give my data to the NYC government.
> all kinds of unregulated purposes.
You make that sound so nefarious. "Unregulated purposes" like better routing and drop off points, and maybe some advertising?
What "regulated" purposes is the NYC government going to use this data for? Increasing the scope of their already massive surveillance mechanism?
> all kinds of unregulated purposes.
You make that sound so nefarious. "Unregulated purposes" like better routing and drop off points, and maybe some advertising?
What "regulated" purposes is the NYC government going to use this data for? Increasing the scope of their already massive surveillance mechanism?
Aww Govt is sad they are losing right to enslave citizens. Bureaucrats/Welfare-Addicts are worried about nearing possibility of doing actual work for money.
Your argument of "at least we are not as bad as Uber" is just sick.
Your argument of "at least we are not as bad as Uber" is just sick.
And the Patriot Act was only going to be used in cases of terrorism. Right. It's mainly used in the war on drugs now. As we thought it would be.
This would be terribly evil and awful, and I hope it doesn't go through.
Eventually, trying to keep your personal whereabouts out of a government database will itself be so suspicious you'll probably be tailed.
Eventually, trying to keep your personal whereabouts out of a government database will itself be so suspicious you'll probably be tailed.
Not condoning this, but they have almost of this data from yellow cab taxi riders, with the exception of the ones that paid in cash.
From the proposal PDF linked in the article:
"Although almost all TLC-licensed drivers do not drive an excessive number of hours, TLC recognized that a small number does and that some drivers may be tempted to work dangerously long hours. Therefore, in support of the City’s Vision Zero initiative to reduce traffic fatalities,TLC adopted rules in July 2016 to address the risks of fatigued driving"
If "almost all TLC licensed drivers do not drive an an excessive number of hours", then this is a very minor problem which should be able to be corrected by enforcement at the FHV(for hire vehicle) level and not by a proposal that not only has potential privacy implications but also has city budgetary implications.
If New York City and the TLC's legitimate focus were on safety and quality of life(Vision Zero)issues then they could start by fixing the problem of aggressive driving by taxis - including blocking the cross-walk boxes, and intersections, blatantly running lights after they are clearly turned red as well as other general uncivil and aggressive behavior such as excessive and unnecessary horn blowing.
"Although almost all TLC-licensed drivers do not drive an excessive number of hours, TLC recognized that a small number does and that some drivers may be tempted to work dangerously long hours. Therefore, in support of the City’s Vision Zero initiative to reduce traffic fatalities,TLC adopted rules in July 2016 to address the risks of fatigued driving"
If "almost all TLC licensed drivers do not drive an an excessive number of hours", then this is a very minor problem which should be able to be corrected by enforcement at the FHV(for hire vehicle) level and not by a proposal that not only has potential privacy implications but also has city budgetary implications.
If New York City and the TLC's legitimate focus were on safety and quality of life(Vision Zero)issues then they could start by fixing the problem of aggressive driving by taxis - including blocking the cross-walk boxes, and intersections, blatantly running lights after they are clearly turned red as well as other general uncivil and aggressive behavior such as excessive and unnecessary horn blowing.
Unrelated: the time frame to comment on this rule for residents has expired. Were it that I was aware of this earlier! How can I not miss these things in the future?
Looks like I'm going to take the subway from now on.
I don't think riding the subway fixes the problem of determining where you're picked up and where you're dropped off (which this rule addresses).
If you have a prepaid pass you use it when you board, at the minimum, your subway entrance terminal is known.
If your phone wi-fi is on, your MAC can be sniffed at entrance and exit. Similar with Bluetooth.
NYC subway stations are blanketed in cameras. You'll be on film entering and exiting.
I'm not able to find it, but 60 Minutes (or similar) interviewed the NYC chief of police and he was claiming most surface streets have near full camera coverage in some capacity between government & private actors.
Using Uber/Lyft arguably gives you less time on camera in NYC.
Edit: `"That's the world we're living in now. Any street, any incident in New York City you get to -- most of the time -- that gets captured on video surveillance," New York City Police Commissioner James O'Neill said at a press conference on Monday.`
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ny-nj-bombings/more-8-000-c...
If you have a prepaid pass you use it when you board, at the minimum, your subway entrance terminal is known.
If your phone wi-fi is on, your MAC can be sniffed at entrance and exit. Similar with Bluetooth.
NYC subway stations are blanketed in cameras. You'll be on film entering and exiting.
I'm not able to find it, but 60 Minutes (or similar) interviewed the NYC chief of police and he was claiming most surface streets have near full camera coverage in some capacity between government & private actors.
Using Uber/Lyft arguably gives you less time on camera in NYC.
Edit: `"That's the world we're living in now. Any street, any incident in New York City you get to -- most of the time -- that gets captured on video surveillance," New York City Police Commissioner James O'Neill said at a press conference on Monday.`
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ny-nj-bombings/more-8-000-c...
Someone earlier made a now dead, but sensationalistic comment about how in some cities the transit police can search you before entering the subway, and if you refuse you can't enter (though usually you can enter from an entrance or station without the checkpoint).
I've even seen TSA stationed inside of busy subway stations, thankfully they were only gruffly and inefficiently redirecting passengers, but weren't doing body scans or pat downs.
I've even seen TSA stationed inside of busy subway stations, thankfully they were only gruffly and inefficiently redirecting passengers, but weren't doing body scans or pat downs.
I believe this is the way that it is in New York, at least when I lived there, unless the city relinquished its powers on this. Long reddit thread here: https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/1dm5fu/what_are_my_rig...
Between the militarization of NYPD and the increasingly bold mass surveillance they're implementing, I think I may just never go to NYC again.
In general, I tend to a agree with you. i.e. Big Brother is bad, but if Big Brother is being Big Brother to protect you against the abuses of Uber then the case is not so clear against increased govt data collection.
The article makes a clear distinction between reasonable collection for those purposes, and this plan which is clearly a catch all with plenty of loopholes for using it however they'd like. I'm all for efficiency and against abuses, but there no way they need all this data for that purpose.
It's little different elsewhere.
One of my relatives were railing about being compelled to get EZPass for the Mass Pike, citing security/tracking concerns.
The reality is, any state or highway water crossing is almost certainly captured on LPR. If you travel on known "drug corridors", like I95, you're face and plate is captured multiple times.
One of my relatives were railing about being compelled to get EZPass for the Mass Pike, citing security/tracking concerns.
The reality is, any state or highway water crossing is almost certainly captured on LPR. If you travel on known "drug corridors", like I95, you're face and plate is captured multiple times.
We will miss you terribly.
It's kind of crazy that Uber is trying to leverage customer privacy concerns given they recently started tracking customer location data even after they are dropped off.