Is the tech bubble popping? Ping pong offers an answer(wsj.com)
wsj.com
Is the tech bubble popping? Ping pong offers an answer
http://www.wsj.com/articles/is-the-tech-bubble-popping-ping-pong-offers-an-answer-1462286089
23 comments
Last time I went through a series of interview to find a new job, I systematically asked to go to the bathroom. I believe male's toilet cleanliness is a good indicator of how employees perceive their workplaces.
Said simply, if it's not clean then I expect employees to give poor considerations to each other or to the work they produce.
You can be fooled by what recruiters tell you in the interviewing room, the perks they offer (free food, ping-pong etc.) but I think a company always show signs it can't control while you're in their precinct.
Funny, I use the quality of the toilet paper as a proxy for how the company treats its regular employees.
That works for restauraunts as well.
That's a good idea. Thanks!
These cultures are all artificial. I've worked at a handful of companies that all brought in the ping pong/foosball/shuffle board, and nobody plays them. It's always a ghost town.
Instead, employees will bring in their own toys like card games and basketball hoops, because that's what they like.
The culture happens because the employees themselves have the latitude and money to make it happen. The foosball table that they are all trying to mimic happened because some ceo/founder at a successful company always wanted one and brought one in for himself. Now it's offered as some kind of perk even though nobody likes the game. The perk should be extreme latitude and high pay. The culture will happen all by itself.
Instead, employees will bring in their own toys like card games and basketball hoops, because that's what they like.
The culture happens because the employees themselves have the latitude and money to make it happen. The foosball table that they are all trying to mimic happened because some ceo/founder at a successful company always wanted one and brought one in for himself. Now it's offered as some kind of perk even though nobody likes the game. The perk should be extreme latitude and high pay. The culture will happen all by itself.
Hmm. We play the shit out of our ping pong tables.
Engineers, product guys, engineering managers, department heads, everyone together, usually four up plus some onlookers. Not artificial at all.
We play the card and table games at each others' homes, usually after sous vide steaks or barbecue.
Our hangouts are nothing like Billions. :-)
Engineers, product guys, engineering managers, department heads, everyone together, usually four up plus some onlookers. Not artificial at all.
We play the card and table games at each others' homes, usually after sous vide steaks or barbecue.
Our hangouts are nothing like Billions. :-)
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“If you don’t have a ping-pong table, you’re not a tech company,” says Sunil Rajasekar, chief technology officer at Lithium Technologies, a San Francisco software startup."
I really hope it was tongue in cheek quote out of context.
I really hope it was tongue in cheek quote out of context.
This clearly illustrates what's wrong with the San Francisco tech culture: it is stuck in the 20th century, and assumes that 'tech' means white or Asian male in their 20's.
Actual cutting edge tech companies order foosball tables.
Actual cutting edge tech companies order foosball tables.
Maglev air hocky is where it's at.
(Not sure that is a thing but it should be).
(Not sure that is a thing but it should be).
It reminds me of https://twitter.com/php_ceo/status/492089140201406465
Their definition of a tech company is obviously not representative. Maybe only when you are 'tech' company that handles online comments, you really need a ping pong table to justify your status.
This blew me away:
"Venture capitalist Michael Cardamone, the tournament’s co-organizer, approves of young companies buying tables with venture funds. “You absolutely should,” he says. “It’s part of building culture.”"
"Venture capitalist Michael Cardamone, the tournament’s co-organizer, approves of young companies buying tables with venture funds. “You absolutely should,” he says. “It’s part of building culture.”"
It makes sense in terms of cost to benefit. A ping pong table is a few hundred dollars at most. An employee performing well is $100,000 at minimum.
Little things like free food and ping pong tables actually offer a massive return on investment.
Little things like free food and ping pong tables actually offer a massive return on investment.
Who are these people who play ping pong during work hours? I want to finish my work and go home. If I have a break, I want to go outside and get some sun and air because I hate being inside all day. I'm not looking for a frat.
Likely people who enjoy taking a break at some point during the day and also enjoy playing ping pong? I don't see how going outside to "get some sun" is objectively any better in general.
Hmmmmm I work at a large games publisher, and it's normal that everyone plays games during lunch(1 hour lunch is normal). I usually have 30 minutes for food then play something for the other 30 minutes(currently trying to get through Dark Souls 3). I guess it's the same with ping-pong or any other in-office activity.
My attitude to a T. My workplace is for working, it's not a playhouse.
In London a Ping Pong table would cost around £10k/year in floorspace used.
A company often spend some floor space on areas where employees can take a break from work to disconnect for a few minutes. Why not put a ping pong table there?
Because it then stops being a space where people can take a break, and becomes a space where two people are playing ping pong, with everyone else crammed along the wall.
"Little things like free food and ping pong tables actually offer a massive return on investment."
Yes, provided everything else about the company is working. People are productive. The product is showing signs of fit. People believe in the founder(s)' vision and in the CEO's direction. Under these circumstances, things like ping pong tables and free meals can offer amazing ROI.
But when your first few business moves are shopping for fancy digs and filling the space with ping pong tables, your priorities are questionable. Morale can't be bought with trinkets. Morale is earned with a strong sense of collective mission and product traction. The rest is icing on the cake.
This distinction is often lost on people, who rush off to buy foosball tables as though the mere presence of such will trick employees into being happy and productive. It's a very '90s attitude: "People want to work for a startup that looks startupy." Well, sure. But the best people want to work for a startup that has a real shot at success, first and foremost.
Yes, provided everything else about the company is working. People are productive. The product is showing signs of fit. People believe in the founder(s)' vision and in the CEO's direction. Under these circumstances, things like ping pong tables and free meals can offer amazing ROI.
But when your first few business moves are shopping for fancy digs and filling the space with ping pong tables, your priorities are questionable. Morale can't be bought with trinkets. Morale is earned with a strong sense of collective mission and product traction. The rest is icing on the cake.
This distinction is often lost on people, who rush off to buy foosball tables as though the mere presence of such will trick employees into being happy and productive. It's a very '90s attitude: "People want to work for a startup that looks startupy." Well, sure. But the best people want to work for a startup that has a real shot at success, first and foremost.
Only if having a ping pong table (or free food) improve productivity.
That's a rather strong assumption.
That's a rather strong assumption.
Agreed:
1) Playtime is for after hours, with friends and family. Ping pong's a fun game but it's noisy and disruptive when you're trying to get work done.
2) Don't care about your free food, I have a strict diet and don't usually eat lunch. Ditto free booze which is frankly a dumb idea (see 1). Free non-alcholic drinks is fine.
1) Playtime is for after hours, with friends and family. Ping pong's a fun game but it's noisy and disruptive when you're trying to get work done.
2) Don't care about your free food, I have a strict diet and don't usually eat lunch. Ditto free booze which is frankly a dumb idea (see 1). Free non-alcholic drinks is fine.
Free booze during meetings is a great in my opinion, makes them tolerable.
Free food is also a recruitment tool. All things being equal, I'll go with the free food place. It's at least $2500 a year to buy lunch.
It's also a tax break in the UK. An employee and the employer aren't taxed on the provision of food but would be taxed on a bonus, so you can offer what amounts to £x worth of free food per year rather than (or in addition to) a cash bonus.
Is it? Employee retention certainly has strong correlation with productivity.
It's certainly not linear, though; I think it will be interesting to see what's better in the long run. It's obviously impossible to measure, due to unpredictable factors such as changes in industry and market and competition.
As a whole, though, I think people, especially in our industry, aren't stupid. Free food would certainly be a more competitive retention factor (than ping pong) -- barring that your company's biggest competitors in terms of hiring aren't also offering free food.
As a whole, though, I think people, especially in our industry, aren't stupid. Free food would certainly be a more competitive retention factor (than ping pong) -- barring that your company's biggest competitors in terms of hiring aren't also offering free food.
Personally, a decent salary & benefits, interesting projects, learning opportunities and sane management would keep me in your company for life.
But, given these things are so difficult to deliver on, let's just throw them kids' games, energy bars and craft beer on tap.
But, given these things are so difficult to deliver on, let's just throw them kids' games, energy bars and craft beer on tap.
It's not like having B makes A harder.
No, but it's when they are used as substitutes.
"Hey, we have a dysfunctional CEO, a runway shorter than the one at Hong Kong airport, and a legacy codebase that reduces the most experienced developer to a gibbering wreck. But look - we have foosball and whiskey tasting nights!"
"Hey, we have a dysfunctional CEO, a runway shorter than the one at Hong Kong airport, and a legacy codebase that reduces the most experienced developer to a gibbering wreck. But look - we have foosball and whiskey tasting nights!"
Ok, so I agree with you that ping pong isn't a replacement for a salary, benefits, or interesting problems. I'm also sure this is a straw man.
Sure, it's a semi-facetious example. But I'm suspicious of job ads that mention things like foosball tables or climbing walls and other such frivolities - it suggests either a juvenile working environment or that the company has to provide gimmicks to entice people to work there because it doesn't have anything solid to offer.
The ROI on those "gimmicks" is huge - to my mind it's the company that wouldn't spend a small amount of money on something fun that's suspicious. That suggests a company that's more bothered about appearances/"professionalism" than just getting on with things.
Juvenile, shrug - I guess I like a juvenile working environment.
Juvenile, shrug - I guess I like a juvenile working environment.
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From the article
> Startups pay up to $2,300 for a high-end Butterfly-brand table.
Your point stands, but the pricing is quite different.
> Startups pay up to $2,300 for a high-end Butterfly-brand table.
Your point stands, but the pricing is quite different.
The quote makes it clear that's the upper bound, which doesn't offer any information about the rest of the purchases, let alone the mean.
Its part of building a culture certainly. Believe it or not its possible to build a company culture around things other than ping pong though - the last company I was at had a culture that revolved around food, cooking, and eating together for example (they do food delivery). Probably not as good for my waistline, but it definitely brought everyone together.
In my current company, ping pong table is the strongest day-by-day teambuilding activity — something that different team members do together, not related to work, something that builds positive relationships between anyone. Most of interactions with some people in the company are intense and have potential for conflict (just because our respective roles), and ping pong offers us a chance to have a different kind of interaction.
In previous company, it was a pool table and game room with Rocket League. In one before that, foosball. Regardless of the game, having some game that is played regularly by coworkers together really helps to build positive relationships and create a team. Definitely worth investor's money.
In previous company, it was a pool table and game room with Rocket League. In one before that, foosball. Regardless of the game, having some game that is played regularly by coworkers together really helps to build positive relationships and create a team. Definitely worth investor's money.
That's cargo cult thinking if I've ever heard it.
> “It does make a psychological statement to the founders and employees that we’re not your father’s company”
No kidding. My father's company wouldn't instill a culture where the expectation is to work 80+ hours a week and then try to (inadequately) offset it with shitty little perks like a ping-pong table.
No kidding. My father's company wouldn't instill a culture where the expectation is to work 80+ hours a week and then try to (inadequately) offset it with shitty little perks like a ping-pong table.
"Building culture" seems like an euphemism for romanticizing the workplace to squeeze more productivity out of employees without spending too much money on supplementing salaries.
Interestingly, It's kinda like academia in that way. Academics romanticizing research as being some kind of virtuous or nobel pursuit to justify their shitty wages and lack of personal time. (source, I am an academic)
I guess we all become devout monks of our own domain at some point in our careers until we realize the bullshit "culture" that was perpetuated, ultimately in the employer's interest.
Interestingly, It's kinda like academia in that way. Academics romanticizing research as being some kind of virtuous or nobel pursuit to justify their shitty wages and lack of personal time. (source, I am an academic)
I guess we all become devout monks of our own domain at some point in our careers until we realize the bullshit "culture" that was perpetuated, ultimately in the employer's interest.
I'm surprised people are so negative here about ping pong tables and such.
In my experience, it's true. It does build culture. In our case, Foosball is a place were employees can bond with each other that transcends business boundaries. Marketing and engineering people both like Foosball - same can not be said for a lot of other extracurriculars.
We even hold tournaments during company time that at least 3/4 of the company chooses to play in.
When you are spending at least 1/3 of your time every day with the same people, I think it is healthy for you to occasionally do something together that is not work. I assume the people here who head straight home also have never gone out after work for drinks with their co-workers or gone to a sports game with them, or anything like that. Foosball and ping pong provide an opportunity to do that.
In fact, as a manager I often challenge my team members to a game of foosball when I get a sense something isn't right and it gives me an opportunity to chat with then 1:1 without feeling like an intervention.
Should you buy a $1300 foosball table when your company is not making money? IMHO, absolutely not. But if you have a good sales month, go for it. I'd rather be in a company where people get to know each other than one where everyone sits quietly at their desk all day and leaves just as quietly at the end.
Then again, I hold a different world view than some other people. I think that a FU money exit is unlikely for most, and getting a four hour a day job without a pay cut is unlikely for most, so if you're going to spend 1/3 of your life at work, a fair measure of success is if you can actually be happy while you are in the office.
In my experience, it's true. It does build culture. In our case, Foosball is a place were employees can bond with each other that transcends business boundaries. Marketing and engineering people both like Foosball - same can not be said for a lot of other extracurriculars.
We even hold tournaments during company time that at least 3/4 of the company chooses to play in.
When you are spending at least 1/3 of your time every day with the same people, I think it is healthy for you to occasionally do something together that is not work. I assume the people here who head straight home also have never gone out after work for drinks with their co-workers or gone to a sports game with them, or anything like that. Foosball and ping pong provide an opportunity to do that.
In fact, as a manager I often challenge my team members to a game of foosball when I get a sense something isn't right and it gives me an opportunity to chat with then 1:1 without feeling like an intervention.
Should you buy a $1300 foosball table when your company is not making money? IMHO, absolutely not. But if you have a good sales month, go for it. I'd rather be in a company where people get to know each other than one where everyone sits quietly at their desk all day and leaves just as quietly at the end.
Then again, I hold a different world view than some other people. I think that a FU money exit is unlikely for most, and getting a four hour a day job without a pay cut is unlikely for most, so if you're going to spend 1/3 of your life at work, a fair measure of success is if you can actually be happy while you are in the office.
Can we use the classic metric of aeron chair sales?
You'd have to adjust for the standing desk fad
Might be a fad but I love mine, I have a spinal condition that makes standing for (most) of the day much less than painful than sitting. (so I built myself one to solve all the usual problems, 21sq/ft of space, goes high enough to be suitable for non-midges, completely and totally stable, in hindsight I might have got carried away a bit http://imgur.com/a/H7fxb - the chair is in the process of been replaced with a stool (that I'm also building))
http://imgur.com/a/H7fxb
http://imgur.com/a/H7fxb
Do they switch to stools in bad times?
Standing desks.
I was going to make a crack about how standing desks could get expensive, and then I checked Amazon and was impressed.
I just switched to a stool to discourage me from slouching.
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hah, those have been turning up cheap on craigslist lately
They're terrible chairs. A mesh back is nice but you need a proper seat. The Aeron cuts off circulation to the legs. It's also about 5x overpriced. I just upgraded to a low end model from a no-name brand. [1] It's honestly a better chair.
1: http://www.amazon.com/Seating-Professional-AirGrid-Adjustabl...
1: http://www.amazon.com/Seating-Professional-AirGrid-Adjustabl...
I must disagree, with passion.
Aerons are phenomenally comfortable for the long-hour use. But you do have to pick one that's your size for that to work.
Aerons are phenomenally comfortable for the long-hour use. But you do have to pick one that's your size for that to work.
Well it is the product of a world class design firm. Even if it was a mistake to have a mesh seat they got most everything else right. But it's telling that the Herman Miller Embody (successor to Aeron) has a real seat.
Sounds like you might have gotten the wrong size. I used to do 12-13 hours sat in one of those at the office, with only a short break during the day to grab a snack, and never had any problems.
Absolutely worth every penny.
Absolutely worth every penny.
agreed, was just commenting that some of my tech friends have joked about measuring the number of aeron dumped on CL
I didn't mean to sound contradictory. I actually sold mine on Craigslist! But a spike in Aeron chair sales may not imply that a bubble is popping. It might just be that startups got off the bandwagon and decided to care about their sorry butts. Literally.
Well, this indicator is not the worst one of all time. That record is probably still held by the price of butter in Bangladesh. [1] Seriously, all you need to read from this article is the following quote:
Mark Cannice, a University of San Francisco professor, issues a quarterly index of venture-capitalist confidence. “I put more faith in venture capitalist insights and confidence,” he says, “than I would in ping-pong-table sales.”
[1] http://www.investopedia.com/articles/stocks/08/stock-market-...
Mark Cannice, a University of San Francisco professor, issues a quarterly index of venture-capitalist confidence. “I put more faith in venture capitalist insights and confidence,” he says, “than I would in ping-pong-table sales.”
[1] http://www.investopedia.com/articles/stocks/08/stock-market-...
I wouldn't
"Startups pay up to $2,300 for a high-end Butterfly-brand table."
Oh shit we've been doing it wrong. When PacketZoom moved to it's current office space (with a bit of spare room), we plonked down ~$130 for something like this bad boy.. http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productI... and put it on top of an ikea table we inherited from the previous occupants. Perfectly good playing surface with decent bounce and no obvious defects after a year of use:
Oh shit we've been doing it wrong. When PacketZoom moved to it's current office space (with a bit of spare room), we plonked down ~$130 for something like this bad boy.. http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productI... and put it on top of an ikea table we inherited from the previous occupants. Perfectly good playing surface with decent bounce and no obvious defects after a year of use:
I work at a big tech company. They don't provide table tennis, but every building has one or two, or more. I find that a game is better for me to get a boost than the coffee. But i still drink the coffee.
Interestingly, I rarely played when I was in a business role, but ever since I switched to a tech role I've played every day. I bought two paddles as well, it's some kind of metamorphosis.
Interestingly, I rarely played when I was in a business role, but ever since I switched to a tech role I've played every day. I bought two paddles as well, it's some kind of metamorphosis.
The article mentions a few companies that used to buy ping-pong tables and now they stopped - but surely you can only buy so many ping pong tables until you don't need any more? It's not like you can be buying X tables per month, forever. You will either run out of people interested in playing, or space for them - or both.
Is it a symbol or an actual game that's used? I've had them in many offices but rarely seen them used.
To me the ping pong table and exposed surfaces in startups reflect wood paneling in law firms. It's symbolism rather than functionality. Symbols do matter.
To me the ping pong table and exposed surfaces in startups reflect wood paneling in law firms. It's symbolism rather than functionality. Symbols do matter.
the graph venture capital vs.ping pong tables reminded me of this http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
But what happens when those companies already have a ping pong table or five?
I mean there's a limit to how many ping pong tables Twitter wants to load into their office.
I mean there's a limit to how many ping pong tables Twitter wants to load into their office.
Here's the thing though. If nobody invests based on ping pong offers but you do, then the gain for your successful bets should be a lot higher.
not really insightful, but it sparked my interest, so I'll leave this google trends search there
https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=startup%20bubble%2C%...
make of it what you will.
https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=startup%20bubble%2C%...
make of it what you will.
I've found it's easier to have a conversation whilst playing pool.. Maybe others are opting for this too? :)
Correlation or Coincidence? I get how they got to this conclusion, but I think latter.
That ping pong table chart is largely useless
I think they've saturated the market...