I think I just failed out of college...
21 comments
Context: I have a PhD. I found school easy, first degree pretty easy, and PhD bloody hard work. Hated some, nearly gave up, didn't, and am so pleased I finished.
You may hate what you're doing, but what makes you think starting a business will be easier? Yes, you'll be doing what you think you want to do, but I assume you thought you wanted to do your degree.
And trust me - parts of running a business will be far, far worse than finishing your degree. It's even more bloody hard, extremely boring, ultra-frustrating trivia that, if it doesn't get done, will kill it all.
So, for what it's worth, here's my advice. Find something to pay the bills. Postpone your degree for a year, or convert to part-time, and realise that not finishing your degree is a waste. (Compare: it might be a sunk cost and perhaps you should abandon it. What, you expected a simple answer?)
All that said, you must find your own balance, your own way, your own satisfaction, your own contentment, and your own life.
Life is not a rehearsal. Take action. Open doors, try not to close doors.
My opinion, without actually knowing you.
You may hate what you're doing, but what makes you think starting a business will be easier? Yes, you'll be doing what you think you want to do, but I assume you thought you wanted to do your degree.
And trust me - parts of running a business will be far, far worse than finishing your degree. It's even more bloody hard, extremely boring, ultra-frustrating trivia that, if it doesn't get done, will kill it all.
So, for what it's worth, here's my advice. Find something to pay the bills. Postpone your degree for a year, or convert to part-time, and realise that not finishing your degree is a waste. (Compare: it might be a sunk cost and perhaps you should abandon it. What, you expected a simple answer?)
All that said, you must find your own balance, your own way, your own satisfaction, your own contentment, and your own life.
Life is not a rehearsal. Take action. Open doors, try not to close doors.
My opinion, without actually knowing you.
Hi!
I went through stuff that sounds awfully similar. I "dropped out" in a very similar way. I had similarly difficult dealings with relatives, etc. I have roughly 20 years on you so on the one hand, my advice might not apply because I'm so old and on the other hand my advice might be really important because I have 20 years more experience. So take it as you will; this is the kind of thing I wish someone had said to me 20 years ago:
Forget other people's opinions, first. Sorta. Your close relatives are in one of two states, roughly speaking. Either they are superstitious and just feel obligated to keep saying "get a degree!" or else they are sensitive to you and maybe know you better than you know yourself and are saying "We can tell you'll regret not finishing, so finish." Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong - but whatever the case, it's not helping right now (per your report). Gently but firmly set aside their pressure. You are your own person right now and this is your first big "test", so to speak. This is your painful process of emancipation.
Next, you have grand ideas about starting a company. I'll assume that you are pretty darn smart and your ideas are very good. I'll assume a company of the sort you imagine would win big. That said:
Give up on it. It's not going to happen. Things are harder than you imagine and, anyway, even the best idea takes a lot of luck. The odds with the bookmaker are that you are going to lose hard on that path. Sure, keep a high self-opinion about your intellect but, basically, stop being so (self-defeatingly) arrogant, you ignorant twit. (Sorry, I got carried away talking to my younger self there. You are perhaps not an ignorant, arrogant twit of the sort I was but rather someone who just comes across that way. :-)
Your priorities, from my armchair, are food, shelter, health care, social life, and room to work on what moves you. Are you good for paying rent indefinitely? Not skipping any meals? Getting your check-ups? Going out and having fun? Some time to spare to work on things like your start-up ideas? Fantastic. If not... get there. Get a job. Get a cheap but livable place to live. Etc. Stabilize your situation. Stop relying on friend and family for money. Get the fundamentals down. Learn how to field grounders, to to speak (a baseball analogy).
Next, your 19 credits away? What the hell is the matter with you? OF COURSE you want the degree. The past is the past and those are "sunk costs" but from where you are now, a degree is cheap.
So, by all means, quit being a full time student and get a job - any job that will fit, don't get cocky. Wait tables if that will fit. Do the paperwork/bureaucracy dance with your school and convert to being a part time student. Complete your degree mostly "at leisure", within the next 2-4 years. You'll feel good about it at the end and yes, it really is worth something "on the market" (for a job or for investment capital).
Most importantly: you will lose the opportunity for the sheepskin (degree) if you walk away from it at this stage. If you take a 10 year break, those remaining credits will become much, much more expensive. So don't do that.
Stabilize yourself as an independent economic actor. Take your time, not external pressure, to drive your business ideas. And finish your damn degree.
I went through stuff that sounds awfully similar. I "dropped out" in a very similar way. I had similarly difficult dealings with relatives, etc. I have roughly 20 years on you so on the one hand, my advice might not apply because I'm so old and on the other hand my advice might be really important because I have 20 years more experience. So take it as you will; this is the kind of thing I wish someone had said to me 20 years ago:
Forget other people's opinions, first. Sorta. Your close relatives are in one of two states, roughly speaking. Either they are superstitious and just feel obligated to keep saying "get a degree!" or else they are sensitive to you and maybe know you better than you know yourself and are saying "We can tell you'll regret not finishing, so finish." Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong - but whatever the case, it's not helping right now (per your report). Gently but firmly set aside their pressure. You are your own person right now and this is your first big "test", so to speak. This is your painful process of emancipation.
Next, you have grand ideas about starting a company. I'll assume that you are pretty darn smart and your ideas are very good. I'll assume a company of the sort you imagine would win big. That said:
Give up on it. It's not going to happen. Things are harder than you imagine and, anyway, even the best idea takes a lot of luck. The odds with the bookmaker are that you are going to lose hard on that path. Sure, keep a high self-opinion about your intellect but, basically, stop being so (self-defeatingly) arrogant, you ignorant twit. (Sorry, I got carried away talking to my younger self there. You are perhaps not an ignorant, arrogant twit of the sort I was but rather someone who just comes across that way. :-)
Your priorities, from my armchair, are food, shelter, health care, social life, and room to work on what moves you. Are you good for paying rent indefinitely? Not skipping any meals? Getting your check-ups? Going out and having fun? Some time to spare to work on things like your start-up ideas? Fantastic. If not... get there. Get a job. Get a cheap but livable place to live. Etc. Stabilize your situation. Stop relying on friend and family for money. Get the fundamentals down. Learn how to field grounders, to to speak (a baseball analogy).
Next, your 19 credits away? What the hell is the matter with you? OF COURSE you want the degree. The past is the past and those are "sunk costs" but from where you are now, a degree is cheap.
So, by all means, quit being a full time student and get a job - any job that will fit, don't get cocky. Wait tables if that will fit. Do the paperwork/bureaucracy dance with your school and convert to being a part time student. Complete your degree mostly "at leisure", within the next 2-4 years. You'll feel good about it at the end and yes, it really is worth something "on the market" (for a job or for investment capital).
Most importantly: you will lose the opportunity for the sheepskin (degree) if you walk away from it at this stage. If you take a 10 year break, those remaining credits will become much, much more expensive. So don't do that.
Stabilize yourself as an independent economic actor. Take your time, not external pressure, to drive your business ideas. And finish your damn degree.
Wow, thank you all for your responses so far. I find it interesting that they have all been independent, non-replies, for what it's worth.
I think the best way to sum up how I feel about it all is that I feel like I'm being forced to get a degree and put aside my passions, and then now I'm failing the degree part. So I'm being forced to do something that I don't want to do and I am not doing well at it. That is a horribly demoralizing situation and makes it really hard for me to put any resources towards fixing it because it keeps leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
A few of you have recommended part time, which is probably my biggest option if I didn't get booted in the coming semester. Thank you for that suggestion.
In regards to whether or not I really want to start a company instead of get a degree, I do have to say that I have had this mentality since middle school. I never said I wanted a job working for someone else, I always questioned other people about why they don't want to create and start their own thing. I have just had a different view on my professional goals for a long time.
Of course, everyone thinks their business is going to strike it rich, and I'm not any different. But I'm confident that if it does succeed, the need for the degree I'm getting will be exactly 0. That's disheartening, as I know that all of these hours I've spent could have gone to working on what I truly want to do.
I've been stubbornly opposed to college for so long. And with being depressed for so long, it was hard to think starting a company was even close to realistic. But now I'm on the ups and feeling much better and working really hard, so it's just leaving me questioning why I go to school when I do. I'm quiet at school when I do go, I'm not taking any business or cs classes, and I haven't done networking in any way whatsoever, so I haven't really pulled much out of attending the University than a few bad report cards.
My plan for now is to see how I did this semester and just keep working on my startup, hopefully getting enough traction to make it a more realistic option for my time.
I think the best way to sum up how I feel about it all is that I feel like I'm being forced to get a degree and put aside my passions, and then now I'm failing the degree part. So I'm being forced to do something that I don't want to do and I am not doing well at it. That is a horribly demoralizing situation and makes it really hard for me to put any resources towards fixing it because it keeps leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
A few of you have recommended part time, which is probably my biggest option if I didn't get booted in the coming semester. Thank you for that suggestion.
In regards to whether or not I really want to start a company instead of get a degree, I do have to say that I have had this mentality since middle school. I never said I wanted a job working for someone else, I always questioned other people about why they don't want to create and start their own thing. I have just had a different view on my professional goals for a long time.
Of course, everyone thinks their business is going to strike it rich, and I'm not any different. But I'm confident that if it does succeed, the need for the degree I'm getting will be exactly 0. That's disheartening, as I know that all of these hours I've spent could have gone to working on what I truly want to do.
I've been stubbornly opposed to college for so long. And with being depressed for so long, it was hard to think starting a company was even close to realistic. But now I'm on the ups and feeling much better and working really hard, so it's just leaving me questioning why I go to school when I do. I'm quiet at school when I do go, I'm not taking any business or cs classes, and I haven't done networking in any way whatsoever, so I haven't really pulled much out of attending the University than a few bad report cards.
My plan for now is to see how I did this semester and just keep working on my startup, hopefully getting enough traction to make it a more realistic option for my time.
I'll break the trend of nonreplies, since this has fallen off the front page and it may be easier to see it here...
I was a lot like you in school. Figured in high school that I really wanted to be a software entrepreneur, went to college mostly to satisfy family obligations, majored in physics because I thought maybe I could be a famous physicist in my 4 years (hah), hated it. I flunked two courses in my major, nearly dropped out both times, and of course was on academic probation for a good portion of the time. The last time was with one semester left, and was rather tricky because I suddenly needed two physics courses to graduate and they were never offered in the same semester.
I did end up finishing, with a CS degree. It was much like the guy with the Ph.D said: I figured that if I had a business, there would definitely be times when I had to do things that were boring and not directly applicable to what I really wanted to be doing. If I looked at that last semester as practice for my business, it wasn't pointless anymore.
One other observation: if you want to succeed in business, you need a healthy respect for randomness. I remember, when I graduated, I had this big plan for my life. I was going to work for someone else's startup for a couple years to learn the ropes. Then I'd quit and start my own. We'd build something cool that lots of people wanted, then get bought out by Google where I'd have tons of fun playing with their massive data stores.
Life doesn't follow plans.
Or rather - you can follow plans, but there's no guarantee that life will follow along. I did end up working for someone else's startup for two years. Then I started my own company, right on schedule. But we got stuck on the "build something cool that lots of people want". And of course that blocked off the "Get bought by Google" part.
So when I had the chance to join Google as an employee, much less wealthy and less accomplished than I'd hoped, I took it. Because I realized that adding that extra "by Google" clause to "get bought" drastically reduced the chances of getting bought, and adding the "get bought" clause drastically reduced my chances of building something cool that lots of people want. In general, the fewer conditions you attach to your goals, the more likely they are to come true.
I think a lot of people make the mistake of cutting off potentially promising avenues far too early. Real life success is never this linear path where everything works out. It's more like a pinball game where you bounce around from bumper to bumper, sometimes falling back but hopefully moving forwards (and you need a lot of balls to win!) Things like getting a degree or investigating big companies to work for may seem terribly boring, but they can open up doors that may be really interesting once you look through them. It's better to look first and then shut the door.
I was a lot like you in school. Figured in high school that I really wanted to be a software entrepreneur, went to college mostly to satisfy family obligations, majored in physics because I thought maybe I could be a famous physicist in my 4 years (hah), hated it. I flunked two courses in my major, nearly dropped out both times, and of course was on academic probation for a good portion of the time. The last time was with one semester left, and was rather tricky because I suddenly needed two physics courses to graduate and they were never offered in the same semester.
I did end up finishing, with a CS degree. It was much like the guy with the Ph.D said: I figured that if I had a business, there would definitely be times when I had to do things that were boring and not directly applicable to what I really wanted to be doing. If I looked at that last semester as practice for my business, it wasn't pointless anymore.
One other observation: if you want to succeed in business, you need a healthy respect for randomness. I remember, when I graduated, I had this big plan for my life. I was going to work for someone else's startup for a couple years to learn the ropes. Then I'd quit and start my own. We'd build something cool that lots of people wanted, then get bought out by Google where I'd have tons of fun playing with their massive data stores.
Life doesn't follow plans.
Or rather - you can follow plans, but there's no guarantee that life will follow along. I did end up working for someone else's startup for two years. Then I started my own company, right on schedule. But we got stuck on the "build something cool that lots of people want". And of course that blocked off the "Get bought by Google" part.
So when I had the chance to join Google as an employee, much less wealthy and less accomplished than I'd hoped, I took it. Because I realized that adding that extra "by Google" clause to "get bought" drastically reduced the chances of getting bought, and adding the "get bought" clause drastically reduced my chances of building something cool that lots of people want. In general, the fewer conditions you attach to your goals, the more likely they are to come true.
I think a lot of people make the mistake of cutting off potentially promising avenues far too early. Real life success is never this linear path where everything works out. It's more like a pinball game where you bounce around from bumper to bumper, sometimes falling back but hopefully moving forwards (and you need a lot of balls to win!) Things like getting a degree or investigating big companies to work for may seem terribly boring, but they can open up doors that may be really interesting once you look through them. It's better to look first and then shut the door.
I never got kicked out, but I took 8 years to get my BS degree. About 3 years through I got a student job doing web design and was soon promoted to staff which meant school was part time, but I started my professional career at 21.
For the first 4 years I was exactly like you... depressed, no motivation, and often unable to drag myself to class. I was basically in school to fulfill my family's expectations, and to some extent I think I was subconsciously rebelling against those standards.
Now after all is said and done, I ended up with a degree and a mediocre GPA. A degree is valuable, and it's definitely worth it to learn to push yourself through something you don't really like. Closing counts for a lot.
That said, passion and identity is a million times more important than a degree. The thing to realize about your family is that they love you, but they may well never understand you. They are only telling you what they think is best, but they don't know what is best for you. Maybe you don't either, but by pursuing your passion you will be more likable and doors will open up.
For the first 4 years I was exactly like you... depressed, no motivation, and often unable to drag myself to class. I was basically in school to fulfill my family's expectations, and to some extent I think I was subconsciously rebelling against those standards.
Now after all is said and done, I ended up with a degree and a mediocre GPA. A degree is valuable, and it's definitely worth it to learn to push yourself through something you don't really like. Closing counts for a lot.
That said, passion and identity is a million times more important than a degree. The thing to realize about your family is that they love you, but they may well never understand you. They are only telling you what they think is best, but they don't know what is best for you. Maybe you don't either, but by pursuing your passion you will be more likable and doors will open up.
With one hour of fake studying, you can fail a class, but with 5 hours of real studying you can get a C- or whatever the minimum passing grade is. I have a feeling that you already know this.
Go to class if it's required, but bring a laptop and work on something you like or surf Hacker News. You don't need to pretend to be paying attention unless the teacher has explicitly banned not paying attention by playing on a laptop.
You're ultimately right, of course, your degree is just a piece of paper, especially when it's in philosophy. It has nothing to do with your startup plans. Does that matter? With psychiatric medication, you may very well gain the emotional detachment needed to do something you really don't want to do. I can tell you that the average person is much more capable of doing things they don't like than either you or I. Unfortunately, we in the proletariat do not get to do only things from which we derive happiness. If you do it right, passing college won't even be much more difficult than failing college. It will also be less stressful. This assumes your parents or someone are paying for college. If they aren't, then you should probably just drop out, a philosophy degree is only worth spending someone else's money on.
I took about a year off from school to work on a startup. I did this naively hoping not to return, but I went back and actually just technically graduated, except for the midterm I have in about 3 hours and the other midterm I have in about 7 hours. Email me if you want, I'd be happy to give you more details about my personal situation and/or answer questions and give advice.
Go to class if it's required, but bring a laptop and work on something you like or surf Hacker News. You don't need to pretend to be paying attention unless the teacher has explicitly banned not paying attention by playing on a laptop.
You're ultimately right, of course, your degree is just a piece of paper, especially when it's in philosophy. It has nothing to do with your startup plans. Does that matter? With psychiatric medication, you may very well gain the emotional detachment needed to do something you really don't want to do. I can tell you that the average person is much more capable of doing things they don't like than either you or I. Unfortunately, we in the proletariat do not get to do only things from which we derive happiness. If you do it right, passing college won't even be much more difficult than failing college. It will also be less stressful. This assumes your parents or someone are paying for college. If they aren't, then you should probably just drop out, a philosophy degree is only worth spending someone else's money on.
I took about a year off from school to work on a startup. I did this naively hoping not to return, but I went back and actually just technically graduated, except for the midterm I have in about 3 hours and the other midterm I have in about 7 hours. Email me if you want, I'd be happy to give you more details about my personal situation and/or answer questions and give advice.
Thank you, I'll be emailing you later today
What do you think about the whole school thing?
Wow, sounds like a familiar story. That was more or less me in my college days in the early 90s, long before the WWW and all the help and suggestions and info you could easily find online.
I remember getting the letter from my college that said "Yeah, thanks and everything, but don't come back next year".
I don't regret any of it. I made more money before I was 30 than most people make in an entire careers worth of work. I'm having fun doing what I like and never regretted not finishing college.
Here is one thing that I HAVE found. College can be a little bit like a startup... 40 years work in 4 years time. Too many people in the job market look at a college degree as proof/validation of your abilities. If you don't have the degree you will most likely have to work harder at the job market over a long period of time if you want to really excel (if you just want to get a better-than-average tech job but not really pursue upper-level executive roles, then it doesn't matter as much). So, you can spend 4 years in college studying hard, or you can spend the next 20 years (at least it's not 40;) ) or so pushing yourself and working through some of the roadblocks you'll encounter by not having a degree.
I've generally always been a self-starter and technology-oriented, so it wasn't too hard to keep my career progressing. But that is because I'm not afraid to push for my own desires and agendas. If you have a strong mind, but a more reserved disposition, you might want to re-consider the college thing. If you have a strong mind and a strong will, you may very well be wasting time and money that could be better applied in a career field.
Sorry this is kind of quick and sloppy... I'm currently in China on business and my day starts in about 10 minutes.
Good luck either way.
Wow, sounds like a familiar story. That was more or less me in my college days in the early 90s, long before the WWW and all the help and suggestions and info you could easily find online.
I remember getting the letter from my college that said "Yeah, thanks and everything, but don't come back next year".
I don't regret any of it. I made more money before I was 30 than most people make in an entire careers worth of work. I'm having fun doing what I like and never regretted not finishing college.
Here is one thing that I HAVE found. College can be a little bit like a startup... 40 years work in 4 years time. Too many people in the job market look at a college degree as proof/validation of your abilities. If you don't have the degree you will most likely have to work harder at the job market over a long period of time if you want to really excel (if you just want to get a better-than-average tech job but not really pursue upper-level executive roles, then it doesn't matter as much). So, you can spend 4 years in college studying hard, or you can spend the next 20 years (at least it's not 40;) ) or so pushing yourself and working through some of the roadblocks you'll encounter by not having a degree.
I've generally always been a self-starter and technology-oriented, so it wasn't too hard to keep my career progressing. But that is because I'm not afraid to push for my own desires and agendas. If you have a strong mind, but a more reserved disposition, you might want to re-consider the college thing. If you have a strong mind and a strong will, you may very well be wasting time and money that could be better applied in a career field.
Sorry this is kind of quick and sloppy... I'm currently in China on business and my day starts in about 10 minutes.
Good luck either way.
Sounds like me from earlier on in this decade. I'm doing fine now. People just assume I have a degree. The only thing it has hindered is the possibility of me getting an H1B and working in the U.S.. After I dropped out, I was really paranoid about proving myself. I'd hang around on TopCoder and several head hunters on there offered to hook me up with interviews with big companies in the U.S. like Microsoft. It's my understanding I wouldn't be eligible for the required H1B however.
Education matters so long as you're mature enough to make it matter. The vast majority of undergrads from the mid-90s onward coasted through university and didn't learn the fundamental point of it which is to ultimately be able to learn on your own. Having had to interview people with varying levels of education, I can say there's little correlation between success and education. Intelligence perhaps, but at the rate that universities are printing degrees, they've literally been forced to lower their standards. It's my opinion that in general, a university grad of 2009 has undergone a much less rigorous education than that of 1979.
Here's a tip though. You need to seek help. We don't fully understand depression, but it's my opinion that it's the equivalent of your brain's Check Engine Soon light. You can keep driving with that light on, but you'll ignore it at your peril.
I'm speaking from experience here... judging by your statements here I don't think you're in any condition to think about starting a successful company. Take a sabbatical if you can afford to. Get your emotions and relationships figured out, start exercising, sleeping a fairly consistent sleep schedule, and eating healthy food. If you live with your parents, consider taking on a part time job to contribute toward paying expenses. Spend the rest of the time just sampling different experiences. You'll eventually notice a trend and that'll be your path.
And for goodness sakes, keep your social life and don't be afraid to have a few drinks a week. Just don't overdo it. Making yourself a hermit to "be more productive" will backfire. I made that mistake too. Now I just look back at those two or three years in my early 20s like they're a black hole I wish I could fill with actual memories. I stunted my emotional growth and basically spent my late 20s catching up for all those experiences I missed in my early 20s.
After 6 months, revisit your decision to drop out. As someone already mentioned in this thread, closing counts for a lot. But if you decide you'd rather start your own business, you'll have a clear mind and a healthy body to devote to it. Right now, you don't have that and it will undermine your plans.
If you want to chat more about this, let me know. I promised my parents I'd eventually get my degree. I'm not one to break my word, so my current plan is to cash out of my business then go back to school and become a permanent student... one of those annoying mature students that asks a ton of questions in lecture because they really really really are passionate about learning.
EDIT:
One thing to add. I didn't know a bloody thing about running a business when I dropped out. There's no way I can spin that to be a good thing. It was just terrible and I was foolish thinking I could run a successful business when I didn't even know what that meant. I found my legs in business only after I decided to pack it in and take a salaried position with a small company. I eventually left that job but I used that experience to absorb as much as I could about running a business.
Education matters so long as you're mature enough to make it matter. The vast majority of undergrads from the mid-90s onward coasted through university and didn't learn the fundamental point of it which is to ultimately be able to learn on your own. Having had to interview people with varying levels of education, I can say there's little correlation between success and education. Intelligence perhaps, but at the rate that universities are printing degrees, they've literally been forced to lower their standards. It's my opinion that in general, a university grad of 2009 has undergone a much less rigorous education than that of 1979.
Here's a tip though. You need to seek help. We don't fully understand depression, but it's my opinion that it's the equivalent of your brain's Check Engine Soon light. You can keep driving with that light on, but you'll ignore it at your peril.
I'm speaking from experience here... judging by your statements here I don't think you're in any condition to think about starting a successful company. Take a sabbatical if you can afford to. Get your emotions and relationships figured out, start exercising, sleeping a fairly consistent sleep schedule, and eating healthy food. If you live with your parents, consider taking on a part time job to contribute toward paying expenses. Spend the rest of the time just sampling different experiences. You'll eventually notice a trend and that'll be your path.
And for goodness sakes, keep your social life and don't be afraid to have a few drinks a week. Just don't overdo it. Making yourself a hermit to "be more productive" will backfire. I made that mistake too. Now I just look back at those two or three years in my early 20s like they're a black hole I wish I could fill with actual memories. I stunted my emotional growth and basically spent my late 20s catching up for all those experiences I missed in my early 20s.
After 6 months, revisit your decision to drop out. As someone already mentioned in this thread, closing counts for a lot. But if you decide you'd rather start your own business, you'll have a clear mind and a healthy body to devote to it. Right now, you don't have that and it will undermine your plans.
If you want to chat more about this, let me know. I promised my parents I'd eventually get my degree. I'm not one to break my word, so my current plan is to cash out of my business then go back to school and become a permanent student... one of those annoying mature students that asks a ton of questions in lecture because they really really really are passionate about learning.
EDIT:
One thing to add. I didn't know a bloody thing about running a business when I dropped out. There's no way I can spin that to be a good thing. It was just terrible and I was foolish thinking I could run a successful business when I didn't even know what that meant. I found my legs in business only after I decided to pack it in and take a salaried position with a small company. I eventually left that job but I used that experience to absorb as much as I could about running a business.
"Making yourself a hermit to "be more productive" will backfire. I made that mistake too."
I made that mistake too, but don't really regret it. The way I see it, I needed to make that mistake - because it gives me a baseline of what I can really accomplish when I put my mind 100% towards a goal. I found that I'm maybe 10-20% more effective than if I put my mind 20% towards a goal, at the cost of completely not having a social life and generally being miserable.
Now I can look at that tradeoff and say "It's not worth it." But until I was 24, I never had the sense that I was applying myself fully; I didn't really know what my "top speed" was. I explicitly went into my mid-20s figuring that it was an experiment, and whether I made a million dollars or not, at least I'd have my answer. It was worth those few wasted years simply to find out that I didn't have this vast reserve of untapped mental energy that I could accomplish great things with. I know lots of folks (the Internet is riddled with them, really) who make it into their 50s with massive egos because they never challenge themselves and just assume "Well, I could be great, but I'm not really trying."
I'm really glad I cut short the experiment after 3 years and didn't continue it until I was 30 like I'd planned, though.
I made that mistake too, but don't really regret it. The way I see it, I needed to make that mistake - because it gives me a baseline of what I can really accomplish when I put my mind 100% towards a goal. I found that I'm maybe 10-20% more effective than if I put my mind 20% towards a goal, at the cost of completely not having a social life and generally being miserable.
Now I can look at that tradeoff and say "It's not worth it." But until I was 24, I never had the sense that I was applying myself fully; I didn't really know what my "top speed" was. I explicitly went into my mid-20s figuring that it was an experiment, and whether I made a million dollars or not, at least I'd have my answer. It was worth those few wasted years simply to find out that I didn't have this vast reserve of untapped mental energy that I could accomplish great things with. I know lots of folks (the Internet is riddled with them, really) who make it into their 50s with massive egos because they never challenge themselves and just assume "Well, I could be great, but I'm not really trying."
I'm really glad I cut short the experiment after 3 years and didn't continue it until I was 30 like I'd planned, though.
I never thought about it that way. I was able to make huge strides in learning. All the time to myself coupled with a desire to prove that "a degree doesn't matter for me" was a great recipe for my self-education. I look back and was not a happy person, but boy was I ever productive when it came to learning stuff. That period of my life is when I discovered Paul Graham's essays, became a much better programmer, stumbled upon the Getting Things Done methodology (way before it went mainstream), and seemed to have made all the right choices when it comes to choosing technologies to study.
My big regret is that there probably was a way for me to accomplish the same thing without being a hermit. I spent a considerable amount of time procrastinating on IRC and forums when I could have been exercising (which would have yielded more energy) and having a better social life. I happen to have a great set of friends, they didn't let me be a complete hermit but I would do social things maybe 2 times a month, 3 if I was lucky.
My big regret is that there probably was a way for me to accomplish the same thing without being a hermit. I spent a considerable amount of time procrastinating on IRC and forums when I could have been exercising (which would have yielded more energy) and having a better social life. I happen to have a great set of friends, they didn't let me be a complete hermit but I would do social things maybe 2 times a month, 3 if I was lucky.
I think there's definitely a way to accomplish the "book learning" parts of that experience without giving up a social life. I find I don't learn appreciably slower now than I did then - the social life seems to come out of the Reddit/HackerNews time budget, which is fairly low signal-to-noise ratio anyway.
I don't think I could've accomplished the self learning part though. Even if I learned just as much, there'd still be the nagging question of "Could I have learned more? Could I have accomplished more?" And I wouldn't have the experience necessary to judge what's really important to me, and what tradeoffs I want to make with the rest of my life.
I don't think I could've accomplished the self learning part though. Even if I learned just as much, there'd still be the nagging question of "Could I have learned more? Could I have accomplished more?" And I wouldn't have the experience necessary to judge what's really important to me, and what tradeoffs I want to make with the rest of my life.
"I could do well at school if it was a priority of mine. [...] this BA would not be unlocking any doors for me."
If philosophy degree is nothing for you, than tell your parents. Come clean, start a new and maybe take on a technical or software degree, or symbolics, or math, physics. You should do something your comfortable with!
"Finishing college is just so not in line with where my desires really are."
Education (College/University) is one way to guide young people. Kind of a guiding light. Some young people don't read HN or use the internet to educate themselves, teach themselves, learn to discuss, learn to write (say blogging), ...
But when you are already orientate your life and future among your peers (HN, friends who code too, conferences) and identify yourself in them, than this BA in Philosophy is in your way. What you have to do is to monetize (business model ;-) your passion, your skills, ... look around your peers what they are doing. And I know it is easier said than done. Especially in this time.
But identification within somebody else (peer/parents/older friends, brother) beyond the age of 18 is crucial, and sometimes young people take the wrong route, or postpone it and thus underperform at formal education because of the lack of motivation.
And why formal education systems don't pick that up, the theme of identification, is that there is too much BS out there, rock stars, glamor, TV, ... there is too much 24/7 illusions out there. And media is making the majority of kids delusional by showing and presenting them values which are wrong, wrong in the context, wrong that this happened without sweat and hard work ... you get me.
"Well, that's a neat idea, but you need to get your degree first."
Then do philosophy as minor and do a major you are fascinated with.
"I just refuse to accept that my degree is truly something that I need in order to follow through on my plans to build a company."
You need lots of sweat equity, passion and learning on the go (accounting, economics, management). A formal education gives you only a paper with your name and that you read some books, the rulers, the pencil, and the rules you have to abide. But creativity, cognitive skills, soft skills, and working without boundaries in mind isn't something you don't learn.
What a rant this is again. Uhm.
If philosophy degree is nothing for you, than tell your parents. Come clean, start a new and maybe take on a technical or software degree, or symbolics, or math, physics. You should do something your comfortable with!
"Finishing college is just so not in line with where my desires really are."
Education (College/University) is one way to guide young people. Kind of a guiding light. Some young people don't read HN or use the internet to educate themselves, teach themselves, learn to discuss, learn to write (say blogging), ...
But when you are already orientate your life and future among your peers (HN, friends who code too, conferences) and identify yourself in them, than this BA in Philosophy is in your way. What you have to do is to monetize (business model ;-) your passion, your skills, ... look around your peers what they are doing. And I know it is easier said than done. Especially in this time.
But identification within somebody else (peer/parents/older friends, brother) beyond the age of 18 is crucial, and sometimes young people take the wrong route, or postpone it and thus underperform at formal education because of the lack of motivation.
And why formal education systems don't pick that up, the theme of identification, is that there is too much BS out there, rock stars, glamor, TV, ... there is too much 24/7 illusions out there. And media is making the majority of kids delusional by showing and presenting them values which are wrong, wrong in the context, wrong that this happened without sweat and hard work ... you get me.
"Well, that's a neat idea, but you need to get your degree first."
Then do philosophy as minor and do a major you are fascinated with.
"I just refuse to accept that my degree is truly something that I need in order to follow through on my plans to build a company."
You need lots of sweat equity, passion and learning on the go (accounting, economics, management). A formal education gives you only a paper with your name and that you read some books, the rulers, the pencil, and the rules you have to abide. But creativity, cognitive skills, soft skills, and working without boundaries in mind isn't something you don't learn.
What a rant this is again. Uhm.
Well, I was a philosophy major once. Fortunately, I balanced it with something marketable--English! The "job lifestyle" that came with the degree was underemployment, and noT much cash, which I gather you are implying. But even that degree gets one past some HR filters.
I did know a fellow from a professional family who (I infer) chose to compete by not competing; got within a few credits of his bachelors at a good school, quit. Was accepted into a good graduate program even so, did most of the work, quit. Not a pretty pattern, and he reached middle age working as a cable guy. I don't say that you're doing this, but be aware of the trap.
I did know a fellow from a professional family who (I infer) chose to compete by not competing; got within a few credits of his bachelors at a good school, quit. Was accepted into a good graduate program even so, did most of the work, quit. Not a pretty pattern, and he reached middle age working as a cable guy. I don't say that you're doing this, but be aware of the trap.
Wow. Your story is basically my story. Smart kid, was a CS major at Tulane when Katrina hit (I'm also a New Orleans native). I went into a huge depression and stopped attending classes. Tulane cut my degree program, so I switched to Philosophy. Started drinking heavily. My grades plummeted. 22 hours from graduating, I found a job doing random tech things (some LAMP stack administration, help desk work, etc.) so I quit school.
My first year on the job I was highly unmotivated and did just the bare minimum of work required, but the second year (thanks in large part to an amazing boss), I really started to get active developing in php. I realized that development was what I really enjoyed doing, and then I became a voracious learner. I read every book I could get my hands on about software development, design patterns, frameworks. A year after that I was doing primarily OOP php work, and now I'm in the process of developing my startup while keeping my day job. (I also lost a bunch of weight and became a workout fanatic - that really helped with the depression and alcoholism thing - trying to lift while drunk is a terrible experience)
I think I will go back and finish up a degree. There's a social stigma that goes along with not having a bachelors. "Oh, he wasn't smart enough for college." But in terms of helping me achieve my life goals? I don't think it's at all necessary, as long as you keep on learning and doing.
My first year on the job I was highly unmotivated and did just the bare minimum of work required, but the second year (thanks in large part to an amazing boss), I really started to get active developing in php. I realized that development was what I really enjoyed doing, and then I became a voracious learner. I read every book I could get my hands on about software development, design patterns, frameworks. A year after that I was doing primarily OOP php work, and now I'm in the process of developing my startup while keeping my day job. (I also lost a bunch of weight and became a workout fanatic - that really helped with the depression and alcoholism thing - trying to lift while drunk is a terrible experience)
I think I will go back and finish up a degree. There's a social stigma that goes along with not having a bachelors. "Oh, he wasn't smart enough for college." But in terms of helping me achieve my life goals? I don't think it's at all necessary, as long as you keep on learning and doing.
There is the peer theory. Great peers can pull you out of many things just by aspiring you.
I think you are depressed. It has nothing to do with your degree, that's just how you are expressing the depression.
Fix (somehow) your depression, and the rest will be OK. You are not depressed because of your degree issues, but rather quite the reverse.
How to fix the depression is not something I can tell you. You will have to go to other sources for help on that. Medication helps, but is not always enough, and conversely other things help, but sometimes you need medication as well.
Fix (somehow) your depression, and the rest will be OK. You are not depressed because of your degree issues, but rather quite the reverse.
How to fix the depression is not something I can tell you. You will have to go to other sources for help on that. Medication helps, but is not always enough, and conversely other things help, but sometimes you need medication as well.
Different country, different context. I dropped out of the first college after 2-3 years (was hard and useless and tended to produce soulless zombies) and started another one which was much easier just to get my degree, while working at the same time. A few comments:
- college is about meeting people and doing different stuff. It's been said a lot, but not enough.
- the very few (3 in my case) really good teachers made a difference. Falls into the "meeting people, doing stuff" thing.
- overall, I think wasting over 4 years on getting my degree was a mistake, probably the biggest one I made. When I didn't have to also go to college at the same time my freelancing really took of, and I probably did more in the next year then in the previous three. BUT - I have a career (not just a job) where it's very very unlikely anyone will ever ask me for a diploma.
- college is about meeting people and doing different stuff. It's been said a lot, but not enough.
- the very few (3 in my case) really good teachers made a difference. Falls into the "meeting people, doing stuff" thing.
- overall, I think wasting over 4 years on getting my degree was a mistake, probably the biggest one I made. When I didn't have to also go to college at the same time my freelancing really took of, and I probably did more in the next year then in the previous three. BUT - I have a career (not just a job) where it's very very unlikely anyone will ever ask me for a diploma.
I dropped out of high-school when my family more or less imploded and to tell you the truth I can see that a degree can give you advantages but there is plenty of good stuff to be had without one.
And I wouldn't trade with any of my high-school buddies that went to college.
Not having a degree effectively translates in to having to work that much harder to prove yourself later on in life, there's nothing wrong with that, in fact it may be an advantage.
If your wish would be to pursue a career in academia then it would be a different matter, if your wish is to be hired by 'bigcorp' then a degree in philosophy wouldn't be worth much anyway.
best of luck!
One fantastic way to beat depression by the way is to work with your hands, consider it as an option please. Something outside of 'brain work' where you get some tangible result for time invested.
And I wouldn't trade with any of my high-school buddies that went to college.
Not having a degree effectively translates in to having to work that much harder to prove yourself later on in life, there's nothing wrong with that, in fact it may be an advantage.
If your wish would be to pursue a career in academia then it would be a different matter, if your wish is to be hired by 'bigcorp' then a degree in philosophy wouldn't be worth much anyway.
best of luck!
One fantastic way to beat depression by the way is to work with your hands, consider it as an option please. Something outside of 'brain work' where you get some tangible result for time invested.
I like my philosophy on the startup vs. school idea. I've decided that I would rather take as much risk as possible early in life with the intention of being financially stable by 30. If I succeed, I've only lost out on a few years of my 20s and I think my 30-80 life will make up for it. If I fail at everything, I'm still only 30 and can be happy with the risks I took. I don't ever want to have to use my degree to apply for a job, and I've found that teaching myself and trial-and-error are the best ways for me to gain knowledge on whatever company/idea I am working on.
I tried University. I hated it. I much preferred running my business. I dropped out after the first year and now I'm living & partying with students and working in the day. I love the balance my life has. When my friends graduate I hope to have a fat savings account and two or three businesses running without me being there. I want the freedom a business gives you. I want the ability to do pretty much what I want, when I want. I want to work with the best team I can find and build awesome products. I want to have fun.
If you are in any way like most of us, everything you are pationnate about eventually loses its luster and will feel like finshing your degree. Learning to work yourself in these situations will be more valuable then anything else. Finally don't assume a degree or a kind of degree is tied to a job or a type of job. It may look like it is but it doesn't have to be.
The situation would be différent if you had customers for your business.
The situation would be différent if you had customers for your business.
I'm in exactly the same boat. Wrote my (hopefully) last engineering exam today. I'm on repeat probation (well, I've already failed out once, but did awesome work for a professor for 2 years, and got back in on the merit of that). However, I repeated the same self-sabotaging things that I do, and didn't really study for my exams, so I might not have passed. I want to work in this field, but this degree feels like a nuisance.
It's seems like there are a lot of like minded people posting in here. Not sure who is still checking up on this thread, but I thoroughly enjoyed it.
What would be a good way to privately exchange emails? I know some of us used anonymous accounts to post here but I'd be fine with exchanging my real information for IM or emailing with anyone else who is interested. Just not sure about the best way to do that privately...
What would be a good way to privately exchange emails? I know some of us used anonymous accounts to post here but I'd be fine with exchanging my real information for IM or emailing with anyone else who is interested. Just not sure about the best way to do that privately...
I was in a similar position, also with a liberal arts degree. I ended up declaring a minor that had a technical emphasis in order to make the last year of school more interesting, and motivate me to graduate.
Sure, your degree may not be helpful to your goals, but it's a degree. And that's pretty cool--even a liberal arts degree. :)
Sure, your degree may not be helpful to your goals, but it's a degree. And that's pretty cool--even a liberal arts degree. :)
Seems to me that if you have to get a (programming) job the philosophy degree is going to be worth less than they code you are writing to a prospective employer.
I have a BA in philosophy and do software stuff.
I always found school pretty easy and went to a 'name brand' type of school, where the philosophy department was one of the hardest departments there.
Some who graduate with philosophy degrees go on to PhDs in philosophy or to be well-paid lawyers, but the majority do not. I was nearly on track to be a Phd myself, but thankfully my advisor kept me from doing so.
(The lifestyle of a career professor is not one that I would have done well in, and he, thankfully, realized it where I did not).
What you have to understand about a liberal arts college/degree is that you are not learning a bunch of skills that you are going to go out and immediately apply. If you want that, just go to technical college and save yourself a bunch of money.
You are never going to /need/ to know about Epicurus or Socrates or Wittgenstein (or history or psychology or economics). What you should be learning about is how to learn. Getting knowledge, applying knowledge, and thinking critically, keeping things organized in your head.
Knowing about philosophy stuff isn't the point of a philosophy degree. Philosophy stuff is, for the most part, useless. But it is also hard, and requires a lot of thinking.
Computer science is one of the most abstract, thought intensive fields that you can go into. If you can work hard and really improve your thought process before you go into computer science, it will be a great boon to your career. A lot of bad software has been written because the person writing it wasn't able to think clearly.
(However, the art of thinking well is applicable everywhere).
To me it really sounds like you need an end behind your philosophy degree... and I hope that I can convey the idea that if you push yourself and actually study and try, in the long run, the lessons learned will be a net gain.
With respect to the actual degree, you probably already realize how helpful it is to have a college degree on your resume. You probably already feel guilt about how huge a waste of time and money it is to give up on the degree.
So my suggestion to you, is not to think about /what/ it is that you are doing, but /how/ it is that you are doing it. It is the /how/ of the work that will be ultimately gratifying for you.
I always found school pretty easy and went to a 'name brand' type of school, where the philosophy department was one of the hardest departments there.
Some who graduate with philosophy degrees go on to PhDs in philosophy or to be well-paid lawyers, but the majority do not. I was nearly on track to be a Phd myself, but thankfully my advisor kept me from doing so.
(The lifestyle of a career professor is not one that I would have done well in, and he, thankfully, realized it where I did not).
What you have to understand about a liberal arts college/degree is that you are not learning a bunch of skills that you are going to go out and immediately apply. If you want that, just go to technical college and save yourself a bunch of money.
You are never going to /need/ to know about Epicurus or Socrates or Wittgenstein (or history or psychology or economics). What you should be learning about is how to learn. Getting knowledge, applying knowledge, and thinking critically, keeping things organized in your head.
Knowing about philosophy stuff isn't the point of a philosophy degree. Philosophy stuff is, for the most part, useless. But it is also hard, and requires a lot of thinking.
Computer science is one of the most abstract, thought intensive fields that you can go into. If you can work hard and really improve your thought process before you go into computer science, it will be a great boon to your career. A lot of bad software has been written because the person writing it wasn't able to think clearly.
(However, the art of thinking well is applicable everywhere).
To me it really sounds like you need an end behind your philosophy degree... and I hope that I can convey the idea that if you push yourself and actually study and try, in the long run, the lessons learned will be a net gain.
With respect to the actual degree, you probably already realize how helpful it is to have a college degree on your resume. You probably already feel guilt about how huge a waste of time and money it is to give up on the degree.
So my suggestion to you, is not to think about /what/ it is that you are doing, but /how/ it is that you are doing it. It is the /how/ of the work that will be ultimately gratifying for you.
I just finished my last final today and it was yet another one where I pretended to study for an hour before the test after not having gone to class in the last 3 weeks, I guess in an attempt to not feel guilty about my lack of caring/trying.
I'm a smart kid. I could do well at school if it was a priority of mine. I'm just so not focused on putting effort into it, and because my major is Philosophy, and I don't want the job lifestyle that comes from a Liberal Arts degree, this BA would not be unlocking any doors for me. The path this degree has me on is exactly opposite of what I really want.
I have had a really tough year, been very depressed and have just a dark cloud over me for a long time. I fell into a really bad habit of procrastination and indifference that really flipped my world upside down. But I have been seeking counseling and have received medication and overall have been feeling much much better.
Because of that depression though, I basically stopped going to school last spring and got put on academic probation. Nearly the same thing happened again this semester, so unless my BS skills were topnotch on my finals, I might be screwed. I'm 19 units from graduating and don't really care that I'm close to getting a degree, college is a major nuisance in my life.
I have started to write in a journal everyday, something I've always wanted to do but just never could muster up the ambition to do so. I don't particularly write with a purpose, just whatever is on my mind and what I want to explore. I haven't reread a word of it either. It's just a medium for expressing my thoughts, not really a memoir or anything. It has really made me feel good to see the amount of pages I have written, to see the production flow from the pen.
I have also been working really hard on starting a digital marketing startup with a friend of mine. I've taught myself Codeigniter in the last few months and have so far built a really robust CRM for us and am now about to finish a web app that will allow us to expand things very quickly (I wish I could show you guys but it's kind of one those internal things that won't ever been seen by the public. Codeigniter is really nice though).
Finishing college is just so not in line with where my desires really are. After having been stuck in such a bad rut for so long, actually being productive again is the most liberating thing ever. I feel like the world went from black and white to color.
I have started tightening up my lifestyle. I never had a drinking problem but I have basically stopped drinking completely and have avoided going to bars with my roommates in order to be productive and take care of my projects.
The act of producing, whether it's writing or programming or designing new features and apps, is hands down a major source of my happiness. I simply don't get that same sense of accomplishment from school.
It's really hard for me because I have my family, both sets of grandparents, girlfriend, and girlfriend's family who all listen to what I'm so excited to work on and try to start and who turn around and respond with "Well, that's a neat idea, but you need to get your degree first."
It really really frustrates me to hear that. I just refuse to accept that my degree is truly something that I need in order to follow through on my plans to build a company. I know a lot of you guys have probably heard this same response.
How do you deal with other people's opinions on how you should pursue your passions? What do you think about the whole school thing?
Thanks for listening.