I chose the ThinkPad Z13 Gen1 as my Linux laptop(wimpysworld.com)
wimpysworld.com
I chose the ThinkPad Z13 Gen1 as my Linux laptop
https://wimpysworld.com/posts/why-i-chose-the-thinkpad-z13-as-my-linux-laptop/
139 comments
My first laptop was a thinkpad and I grew to love the nub (this was accidental, I had purchased a mouse, but found that I didn't move my fingers to use it unless I was gaming or something like that, much nicer to keep the fingers on the home row).
My point is, on any other laptop you might be right, but the trackpad doesn't matter much on a Thinkpad.
My point is, on any other laptop you might be right, but the trackpad doesn't matter much on a Thinkpad.
My recent set of Thinkpads (my work one is recent, the others from 2018) have good enough trackpads, but it's barely a concern since I don't use them much except for very casual use where I am not typing anything Even then, 80% of the time, I am on the trackpoint.
FWIW, The MacBooks I have, from 2015, are just ... ok. They probably got better, but I wouldn't care to find out.
FWIW, The MacBooks I have, from 2015, are just ... ok. They probably got better, but I wouldn't care to find out.
The trackpad on my 2014 Retina isn't very good compared to my M1. The old one took a lot of force and was physical wereas the new one is using their haptic engine.
2015 MacBooks use haptics too except maybe the Airs.
The trackpad matters because I’m not using the nub and I have zero interest in ever doing so again.
I want a trackpad, it’s pretty simple.
I want a trackpad, it’s pretty simple.
Yup, clitmouse FTW
It's funny you mention Sensel. They had a product called Morph, which would have been my penultimate MIDI / OSC controller for music had they not discontinued it.
I had no idea they were (primarily) into laptop touchpads, but post factum this does make a lot of sense (no pun intended)
Luckily now there's also Embodme Erae Touch (dropped a couple of months ago), which has an additional benefit of having LED matrix under the surface to provide visual feedback. I haven't tested one though, so it might not turn out to be equivalent to the Morph.
https://www.embodme.com/erae-touch
Luckily now there's also Embodme Erae Touch (dropped a couple of months ago), which has an additional benefit of having LED matrix under the surface to provide visual feedback. I haven't tested one though, so it might not turn out to be equivalent to the Morph.
https://www.embodme.com/erae-touch
Looks like a fantastic Linux laptop.
A few minor remarks:
1. There seem to be minor issues around suspend (e.g., audio issues on resume, cannot yet disable suspend-on-lid-close [1])
2. As noted in the article, this is not a "classic" Thinkpad. As a consequence, some "classic" Thinkpad things may not yet work on Linux (e.g. fan control [1])
As usual, always check the amazing Arch Wiki before any laptop purchase for Linux compatibility.
[1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_Z13
A few minor remarks:
1. There seem to be minor issues around suspend (e.g., audio issues on resume, cannot yet disable suspend-on-lid-close [1])
2. As noted in the article, this is not a "classic" Thinkpad. As a consequence, some "classic" Thinkpad things may not yet work on Linux (e.g. fan control [1])
As usual, always check the amazing Arch Wiki before any laptop purchase for Linux compatibility.
[1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_Z13
For context (in case anyone thinks I'm nitpicking and all laptops are horribly supported on Linux): Basically everything works on the Thinkpad X1 Carbon [2], even the latest model (Gen11) as long as you buy the right one (no MIPI webcam).
Unfortunately, Lenovo refuses to put AMD processors in X-series thinkpads (its top-of-the-line laptops).
[2] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_(...
Unfortunately, Lenovo refuses to put AMD processors in X-series thinkpads (its top-of-the-line laptops).
[2] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_(...
The T14s has AMD, is much cheaper and having owned both I can't really see a difference. Maybe a few mm thicker.
The T series and the W series are the only Thinkpads I ever considered. They are built to be maintainable and somehow upgradable. The sleeker X series make too many compromises (like soldering the RAM) to be so sleek, and it's not something I value at all.
(Typing this from a T14 running Linux.)
(Typing this from a T14 running Linux.)
What's with the X1s having such crappy screen resolutions (1920x1080)?
My practically ancient Carbon X1 Gen 7 (2019?) has a screen of 2560x1440. You can't even buy a MacBook Air even at that poor a resolution nowadays.
My practically ancient Carbon X1 Gen 7 (2019?) has a screen of 2560x1440. You can't even buy a MacBook Air even at that poor a resolution nowadays.
Nitpick on the Nitpick, x1 are their thinnest, not necessarily top of the line laptops :-)
There's a fairly straightforward set of compromises between thin, powerful, repairable, between X, Ts, T proper, P, etc.
There's a fairly straightforward set of compromises between thin, powerful, repairable, between X, Ts, T proper, P, etc.
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P1 Gen3 w/ 4k OLED, best laptop I've had in my life. It gets a bit noisy and hot though.
Liked it so much I bought a 2nd as hot spare. Everything works with Debian stable. Do I wish it was AMD based? Yes. 8C16T + 64GB is still a lot of awesome.
Edit: As a warning, the display is so good you will have to purchase all new displays everywhere else in your life.
Liked it so much I bought a 2nd as hot spare. Everything works with Debian stable. Do I wish it was AMD based? Yes. 8C16T + 64GB is still a lot of awesome.
Edit: As a warning, the display is so good you will have to purchase all new displays everywhere else in your life.
It's unfortunate that these are the same issues I had 18 years ago.
I have a ThinkPad Z13 as well[1] and, at least on openSUSE Tumbleweed, there are no suspend issues that I can find. Everything works as it should out of the box.
[1] Two, actually, since my wife has one as well.
[1] Two, actually, since my wife has one as well.
Yes some of the suspend/audio issues are indicated as distro-dependent. But have you tried to disable suspend-on-lid-close? If that works for you as well, please let me know.
Never tried, but let me know how and I can give it a shot.
Thanks! On systemd-based systems:
in /etc/systemd/logind.conf:
HandleLidSwitch=ignore
HandleLidSwitchExternalPower=ignore
HandleLidSwitchDocked=ignore
systemctl restart systemd-logind
Like the other person, I too have a Z13 and don't have any suspend/resume issues on Nobara (a Fedora spin). I can't speak about fan control though, haven't tried messing around with it but the fan seems to work just fine as intended - spins up when needed, quiet otherwise.
It's more manual, but I love that "sudo systemctl hibernate" works reliably on my X1 Carbon Gen6.
I have the same laptop (with a slightly faster CPU though), bought it for similar reasons to OOP - I needed something light compact, 32GB+ RAM, Ryzen 6000+ APU for some decent light gaming, and excellent Linux support of course.
Like OOP, I would've preferred a Framework, but since they didn't have an AMD option at the time, I chose this. In fact, it was the ONLY laptop in the entire market at the time which met my criteria.
I've been using it for over 10 months now and it's held up pretty well. Running Nobara (Fedora-based gaming distro) and it runs incredibly well, everything worked out-of-the-box, including all the Fn keys and suspend/resume.
I used to get around 40-45 FPS playing Diablo 4 under Proton-GE, and it was more than playable (I don't play it anymore btw). The games that I do play currently are a bit more old-school, like Project Diablo 2, Age of Empires 2, Skyrim etc and some retro gaming on emulators, all of which it handles like a champ.
I'm glad this is getting some attention now. We need more AMD-based and Linux-friendly laptops and end Intel's monopoly in this space.
Like OOP, I would've preferred a Framework, but since they didn't have an AMD option at the time, I chose this. In fact, it was the ONLY laptop in the entire market at the time which met my criteria.
I've been using it for over 10 months now and it's held up pretty well. Running Nobara (Fedora-based gaming distro) and it runs incredibly well, everything worked out-of-the-box, including all the Fn keys and suspend/resume.
I used to get around 40-45 FPS playing Diablo 4 under Proton-GE, and it was more than playable (I don't play it anymore btw). The games that I do play currently are a bit more old-school, like Project Diablo 2, Age of Empires 2, Skyrim etc and some retro gaming on emulators, all of which it handles like a champ.
I'm glad this is getting some attention now. We need more AMD-based and Linux-friendly laptops and end Intel's monopoly in this space.
As much as I dislike the intel/amd "two party" thing we have now, why AMD when intel is the devil we know?
I realize performance and power and heat can be the concern but ultimately we know how to cripple ME, while the PSP isn't really fully understood yet.
System76 Serval WS - I ordered this and it arrives this week, however there is at least one AMD laptop they offer, again, I believe, with Coreboot and OpenEC.
I realize performance and power and heat can be the concern but ultimately we know how to cripple ME, while the PSP isn't really fully understood yet.
System76 Serval WS - I ordered this and it arrives this week, however there is at least one AMD laptop they offer, again, I believe, with Coreboot and OpenEC.
- I trust AMD more than Intel, and the PSP doesn't rank high on my threat model. It is a concern, but not enough for me to avoid it. Perfectly understandable if it's a big concern for you though.
- Also, Intel iGPUs are still pretty bad at gaming, at least compared to AMD's equivalents.
- System76 did not (and still does not) offer a compact AMD laptop, they only offer a 15" one. I needed 14" or smaller for better portability and weight (I'm one of those people who actually uses a laptop on their lap).
- Also, Intel iGPUs are still pretty bad at gaming, at least compared to AMD's equivalents.
- System76 did not (and still does not) offer a compact AMD laptop, they only offer a 15" one. I needed 14" or smaller for better portability and weight (I'm one of those people who actually uses a laptop on their lap).
Your model makes sense, at least for situations like yours...
I got the serval because it includes a 4070 8gb...so graphics and battery life aren't really a concern to me...I usually am plugged in. I also trust AMD more but they haven't been very forthcoming on the PSP.
I got the serval because it includes a 4070 8gb...so graphics and battery life aren't really a concern to me...I usually am plugged in. I also trust AMD more but they haven't been very forthcoming on the PSP.
The answer to “why AMD” is that you get better performance (especially graphics) for the money and better mobile power efficiency than Intel at present.
Makes perfect sense for your situation. In my case it is more...portable power, without a lot of concern on efficiency because I'm always plugged in.
I guess it depends on priorities. I prefer first to be as assured as I can that despite my 0 trust model, my machine isn't factory backdoored, or at least, is less factory backdoored than everyone else's machine.
I guess it depends on priorities. I prefer first to be as assured as I can that despite my 0 trust model, my machine isn't factory backdoored, or at least, is less factory backdoored than everyone else's machine.
Yeah, no, I can’t do the paranoid computing thing. That’s not for me.
Intel integrated graphics are terrible, so if you're buying a smaller laptop which will usually not have a dedicated graphics card, it's gonna poop itself if you're on a video call while some basic code compilation is happening.
If the ctrl and fn key positions bother you on other ThinkPads, my T14 has an option to swap them in the BIOS, and I imagine many other models do to. The model in the article can probably swap them back.
They all offer this, but the key labels (obviously) don’t change, so it’s still a plus to buy one with the layout that’s “correct” to you.
The size of the buttons also don't change. The main reason why i don't decide for a thinkpad as my working machine.
You can swap the keycaps too
Not on every Thinkpad. On a T14s the FN and Ctrl keys have different sizes.
I got the Z13 as my personal and loved it so much I got the Z16 for work.
I was very displeased with the quality on the X1 Carbon Gen 9 I had for work before that, felt like a $400 laptop. Just creaky thin plastic everywhere, the click buttons worked 1/10th of the time, awful trackpad. Also the the crtl-alt-fn key placement on the X series is ridiculous.
basically I wanted macbook-level hardware quality, with easy Linux support (save for the now-long-gone butterfly keyboard issues) I figured Z series would be the closest thing and it has really delivered.
I wish there were an in-between size - more screen real estate than the Z13, but not as gigantic and hefty as the Z16.
I was very displeased with the quality on the X1 Carbon Gen 9 I had for work before that, felt like a $400 laptop. Just creaky thin plastic everywhere, the click buttons worked 1/10th of the time, awful trackpad. Also the the crtl-alt-fn key placement on the X series is ridiculous.
basically I wanted macbook-level hardware quality, with easy Linux support (save for the now-long-gone butterfly keyboard issues) I figured Z series would be the closest thing and it has really delivered.
I wish there were an in-between size - more screen real estate than the Z13, but not as gigantic and hefty as the Z16.
I would prefer the X1 Carbon myself, even though it's Intel. I prefer the 14 inch size and without an Aluminium case it's probably lighter than the Z13. The latest gen of X1 uses a U class processor rather than the P-class of the previous generation. I don't know how its battery life compares to the Amd Z13 though.
I opted for a Thinkpad with upgradable RAM recently instead of an X1, as a 3rd party sdimm is about 1/3 the price of the lenovo upgrade.
I opted for a Thinkpad with upgradable RAM recently instead of an X1, as a 3rd party sdimm is about 1/3 the price of the lenovo upgrade.
Lenovo’s choices with U vs. P variants are confusing sometimes. For example, why on earth would you try to cram a hot power hungry P-series CPU into the X1 Nano, a machine with tight size/weight constraints reducing cooling and battery capacity, like they do? Everything about that model screams U series but you can’t build one with that config.
Recently bought an X1 Carbon with a 1270P CPU and had to return it.
In hindsight, the P processor was probably a bad idea, but I assumed if they had it as an option then it would be capable of cooling it. Unfortunately, that was not the case. It was very fast if you only used it for a few minutes from cold, but even just light office use would cause the laptop to warm up until it started to hit thermal throttling, even at only 10%-20% CPU use. Under heavy loads it was even worse, performance dropping to about 20% after 10 mins - equivalent to a desktop CPU from the early 2010s. Sure you don't buy an X1 for building kernels, but you do expect it to be able to handle Zoom screen sharing.
Ultimately, I found that it performed worse under normal usage than the 5 year old X1 Carbon it was intended to replace.
In hindsight, the P processor was probably a bad idea, but I assumed if they had it as an option then it would be capable of cooling it. Unfortunately, that was not the case. It was very fast if you only used it for a few minutes from cold, but even just light office use would cause the laptop to warm up until it started to hit thermal throttling, even at only 10%-20% CPU use. Under heavy loads it was even worse, performance dropping to about 20% after 10 mins - equivalent to a desktop CPU from the early 2010s. Sure you don't buy an X1 for building kernels, but you do expect it to be able to handle Zoom screen sharing.
Ultimately, I found that it performed worse under normal usage than the 5 year old X1 Carbon it was intended to replace.
The elephant in the room is that there is no Linux laptop available on the market at any price, with power efficiency even approaching the Apple silicon macs.
The T14 runs at around 9W when the screen is not super bright and you only do light work. I think the Macbook Pro runs at around 6-7W with a similar configuration, which is arguably better. The 16' Macbook also has a much larger battery (almost 100 Wh I think), the Thinkpad has only a 50 Wh battery so it won't last nearly as long on battery. In practice it doesn't bother me much though, not many situations where I have trouble plugging in a charging cable or carrying a powerbank.
Biased perspective, but there are for sure Chromebooks playing in that league. Whether you consider those "Linux laptops" is more of a taste thing. But if you want an all-day battery on a box with a shell and kernel, you can have it.
Ryzen 7000 should be close to Apple Silicon.
I’m strongly considering a T14 gen4 and if this turns out to be correct then that will likely tip me over the edge. Hopefully we have some early review in the next few weeks.
Any reason you want a Lenovo instead of a Framework?
Frankly all the reviews I’ve read about them (from actual users, not review sites) say they’re not really there yet, quality-wise.
You aren’t wrong, but you can run linux on apple silicon if it’s that important to you.
Maybe, but according to the article Martin is getting 11 hours of battery life. Which is quite good. (I get about 6-8 with my amd 5600 laptop)
My most recent Linux laptop upgrade as of 10/2022 was:
FROM a refurbished Panasonic Let's Note CF-SX3, Intel Core i5-4300U, ~2013 vintage, 8GB RAM, aftermarket Intel 400GB DC S3610 Series SSD, purchase price EUR ~1500 ex VAT plus random hassles with customs importing used tech from JP to EU
TO a refurbished Dell Latitude 7390, Intel Core i7-8650U, ~2018 vintage, 16GB RAM, 512GB SK Hynix NVMe SSD, purchase price EUR ~600 ex VAT
The new one unexpectedly came with 16GB RAM instead of the advertised 8GB, lucky me. My main reason for upgrading was "want Thunderbolt / DP capable of driving 4K display", which turned out to be a mixed blessing.
This person's compromise was going from 64GB of RAM to 32GB, and from 2TB of storage to 1TB.
You young whippersnappers are so spoilt.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
PS. Now that you know the exact CPU I run, I'll invite you out to dinner at a Michelin restaurant of your choice in exchange for my private key of your choice.
FROM a refurbished Panasonic Let's Note CF-SX3, Intel Core i5-4300U, ~2013 vintage, 8GB RAM, aftermarket Intel 400GB DC S3610 Series SSD, purchase price EUR ~1500 ex VAT plus random hassles with customs importing used tech from JP to EU
TO a refurbished Dell Latitude 7390, Intel Core i7-8650U, ~2018 vintage, 16GB RAM, 512GB SK Hynix NVMe SSD, purchase price EUR ~600 ex VAT
The new one unexpectedly came with 16GB RAM instead of the advertised 8GB, lucky me. My main reason for upgrading was "want Thunderbolt / DP capable of driving 4K display", which turned out to be a mixed blessing.
This person's compromise was going from 64GB of RAM to 32GB, and from 2TB of storage to 1TB.
You young whippersnappers are so spoilt.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
PS. Now that you know the exact CPU I run, I'll invite you out to dinner at a Michelin restaurant of your choice in exchange for my private key of your choice.
7390s have been sub $200 on ebay for the last year or more. They are circa 2019.
Great machine, I'm looking for a replacement currently but the new latitudes have moved the power button onto the keyboard and removed the touchpad buttons.
Great machine, I'm looking for a replacement currently but the new latitudes have moved the power button onto the keyboard and removed the touchpad buttons.
Yup, they even get firmware updates via LVFS/fwupd!
The relative high-DPI-ness of the internal display in combination with worsening eyesight forced me to migrate from X11/openbox to Wayland/Plasma. That has mostly turned out OK, with the caveat of getting used to/working around a non-zero set of desktop bugs in my daily workflow.
The relative high-DPI-ness of the internal display in combination with worsening eyesight forced me to migrate from X11/openbox to Wayland/Plasma. That has mostly turned out OK, with the caveat of getting used to/working around a non-zero set of desktop bugs in my daily workflow.
I have this laptop with windows and its pretty awesome. I had simple criteria of long battery life, processor, storage space. I got the fake leather version and it's been great.
I really wanted the Zenbook 14x Space edition, if it didn't suck at power I might have gone with it. Mostly because it looks rad but glad I didn't purchase it, battery life was half of Z13.
I really wanted the Zenbook 14x Space edition, if it didn't suck at power I might have gone with it. Mostly because it looks rad but glad I didn't purchase it, battery life was half of Z13.
I also opted for this laptop even as it only has 2 usb-c ports (no other connectors) and even worse no physical mouse buttons. However, this is the first ThinkPad for a long time that has a really good thermal design and good battery life. I am happy. And I actually even find myself using the touch pad from time to time.
The lack of ports and trackpad buttons seems awful. I think they ruined the trackpoint too. Are the thermals and battery life really so much better than e.g. the T14 or T14s?
I had only had X-Series laptops before and I cannot tell.
The haptic feedback on the track pad is emulating the buttons reasonably well, but, yes, I am missing the buttons! It is much more tiring on my fingers than using the external trackpoint keyboard. Particularly the middle mouse is harder to hit.
I can reasonably live with the usb-c as there are great small USBC hubs. I actually started to enjoy that I can connect eanythingbon either side.
For cooling: the non-coated case material and particularly having the air flowing inside the display joint ( I think like Mac books) makes a difference IMHO.
The haptic feedback on the track pad is emulating the buttons reasonably well, but, yes, I am missing the buttons! It is much more tiring on my fingers than using the external trackpoint keyboard. Particularly the middle mouse is harder to hit.
I can reasonably live with the usb-c as there are great small USBC hubs. I actually started to enjoy that I can connect eanythingbon either side.
For cooling: the non-coated case material and particularly having the air flowing inside the display joint ( I think like Mac books) makes a difference IMHO.
Just a note: the compact size and low power draw necessitate soldered RAM (LPDDR). I know it’s easy to dislike that trend, but if you’re really looking to save power, socketed RAM basically wastes power.
Luckily for all of us, the need for constantly increasing system memory has slowed greatly over the past 10-15 years and the reliability of memory chips is very good.
Luckily for all of us, the need for constantly increasing system memory has slowed greatly over the past 10-15 years and the reliability of memory chips is very good.
You seem to know what you're talking about, What is the actual power draw difference of socketed (LPDDR) vs soldered (SO-DIMM) RAM?
As someone with 128GB in my main workstation and 64 in my laptop this soldered RAM trend makes me so sad. RAM is the cheapest way to improve your compute experience and using massive amounts is how I've otherwise been able to make old machines feel nice to use. I have a Lenovo T580 from 2018 and with 64GB it's a fantastic machine 5 years later, but I doubt a machine I buy now will be anywhere as good in 5 years as I won't be able to supercharge its memory to what 2028 would consider obscene for a laptop.
As someone with 128GB in my main workstation and 64 in my laptop this soldered RAM trend makes me so sad. RAM is the cheapest way to improve your compute experience and using massive amounts is how I've otherwise been able to make old machines feel nice to use. I have a Lenovo T580 from 2018 and with 64GB it's a fantastic machine 5 years later, but I doubt a machine I buy now will be anywhere as good in 5 years as I won't be able to supercharge its memory to what 2028 would consider obscene for a laptop.
More metal (larger pins) = more electrical resistance. Plus, there’s a physical air gap on a socketed chip. The original LPDDR spec was able to drop voltage from 2.5V to 1.8V.
I've been reading up on LPDDR here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LPDDR) but alas it did not have the answers to the power consumption questions I have. Maybe someone here will know:
I am primarily concerned with power consumption when the laptop is asleep and ram is NOT persisted to disk (no hibernation). On a Linux setup in sleep mode, will there be a power consumption difference if you have 32GB vs 16GB of LPDDR but only use say 8GB of memory? If so will it typically dominate the sleep power consumption?
I am primarily concerned with power consumption when the laptop is asleep and ram is NOT persisted to disk (no hibernation). On a Linux setup in sleep mode, will there be a power consumption difference if you have 32GB vs 16GB of LPDDR but only use say 8GB of memory? If so will it typically dominate the sleep power consumption?
I went "mobile workstation" this time around and so I have sockets again, migrating from a desktop and my dead ultrabook...
I can live with having ~1hr battery life (which I can push further anyway) with the way I operate and work...
Everyone I guess has different priorities. My company went remote so I don't have to be in an office or flying around all the time anymore, so I need less battery power.
I can live with having ~1hr battery life (which I can push further anyway) with the way I operate and work...
Everyone I guess has different priorities. My company went remote so I don't have to be in an office or flying around all the time anymore, so I need less battery power.
I wish more people were aware that (seemingly now) mid and high end laptops with soldered ram actually have LPDDR RAM, which is faster and uses less power than conventional RAM. It isn't upgradable, but at least it offers those things. That said, there are laptop makers that do solder conventional, could-be-upgradable RAM (like Lenovo, on my ideapad...).
> socketed RAM basically wastes power.
the question is how much power compared to screen and cpu? If its like 4%, then I prefer not to have it.
the question is how much power compared to screen and cpu? If its like 4%, then I prefer not to have it.
I have the same machine (but in 16", Z16) and it's been nothing but trouble/drama with BIOS updates.
USB-C ports to docking stations and second displays were broken for two months, with no ability to rollback the BIOS version.
https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-Z-series-Laptops/Exter...
Recently it's just started freezing up for no reason.
Last fall they pushed some update with f'd up the fan (didn't run enough, overheated). Then another that made it run too often. At some point in there something got pushed that messed up the TPM config or something so my whole Windows partition install had to be redone.
For the first 5-6 months power mgmt generally was a nightmare. Especially in Linux. Much improved lately though.
Not recommended. Maybe the Gen2 is better.
USB-C ports to docking stations and second displays were broken for two months, with no ability to rollback the BIOS version.
https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-Z-series-Laptops/Exter...
Recently it's just started freezing up for no reason.
Last fall they pushed some update with f'd up the fan (didn't run enough, overheated). Then another that made it run too often. At some point in there something got pushed that messed up the TPM config or something so my whole Windows partition install had to be redone.
For the first 5-6 months power mgmt generally was a nightmare. Especially in Linux. Much improved lately though.
Not recommended. Maybe the Gen2 is better.
I don't understand why modern thinkpads are so hyped.
Recently I bought a L14 AMD and it doesn't even come with a decent keyboard or touchpad. The touchpad feels laggy and clunky, there are many of such reports for L14 and T14 models. The built-in keyboard ocassionally gets stuck pressing a key, and the I need to suspend-and-resume to unstuck it.
As you said, usb-c dock problems are a nightmare. Better get a good usb 4 cable with 40 gbps and 100 watts, or else you will spend countless hours doubting if problems are because of the cable. Spoiler: it's not any particular cable, it's the laptop.
For comparison, we use dell latitutes (intel) at work and they just work fine. I wonder if problems are common to all modern thinkpads, or if it only affects AMD models.
Recently I bought a L14 AMD and it doesn't even come with a decent keyboard or touchpad. The touchpad feels laggy and clunky, there are many of such reports for L14 and T14 models. The built-in keyboard ocassionally gets stuck pressing a key, and the I need to suspend-and-resume to unstuck it.
As you said, usb-c dock problems are a nightmare. Better get a good usb 4 cable with 40 gbps and 100 watts, or else you will spend countless hours doubting if problems are because of the cable. Spoiler: it's not any particular cable, it's the laptop.
For comparison, we use dell latitutes (intel) at work and they just work fine. I wonder if problems are common to all modern thinkpads, or if it only affects AMD models.
From what I can tell from the two Lenovo products we have in the house -- an all-in-one machine with a stylus (for my daughter for art) and this Z16 ... Lenovo (esp AMD Lenovo) has a serious software quality problem. Everything from BIOS & drivers up to their awful custom packaging of Windows. I'm a Linux guy but I keep a Windows partition around and on both machines life got a lot better after I removed the stock Lenovo Windows install and got a fresh install on it.
But firmware has been a total nightmare. Just one quality problem after another.
But hardware seems good.
Never used to be like this. Had older thinkpads and they were great.
Still I should say I prefer working on my Z16 vs the HP laptop provided by work. It has a different bag of problems, and a terrible keyboard and trackpad.
But firmware has been a total nightmare. Just one quality problem after another.
But hardware seems good.
Never used to be like this. Had older thinkpads and they were great.
Still I should say I prefer working on my Z16 vs the HP laptop provided by work. It has a different bag of problems, and a terrible keyboard and trackpad.
Nice lost! I've bought a Thinkpad X1 detachable, which on paper is not a great pick, but I wanted a tablet with Linux on it. Turns out it's a great device to run Linux on, now I'm using it as my daily driver.
You mean an X1 Tablet? The one with the 3000x2000 screen? I found it to be a somewhat disappointing Linux machine. The rear camera does not work, neither the built-in microphone. I was never able to get its GPS working either, after going down quite a rabbit hole with ModemManager. And battery life is awful, but that's not Linux's fault, it just has a tiny battery.
They are rather excellent for the price, however.
They are rather excellent for the price, however.
Typo -- X12 detachable. Thinking about, it had some similar issues (I think an upcoming kernel update will take care of some) but all these are features I don't care about.
Funny as i'm waiting for the Z13 Gen 2. It was announced for June. I hope it will be available this year.
Just buy ThinkPad P14s which is essentially a T14 with 64GB RAM and a discrete GPU option. It is just 2mm thicker than X1 and costs 1000 USD less...
I usually have mine plugged in, but when I do run on battery, I get like 4 hours on it running Ubuntu. It doesn't bother me, since I am usually near an outlet anyway. But I suppose it can be better though (I don't really need the dGPU; I only have it because the computer is provided by work.) But, as a "thin" computer, it's pretty decent in that department.
That looks like a great ThinkPad. Had an E14 Gen3 which was great and I loved it dearly, but panel was %75 SRGB (imagine most colors are wrong) and practically invisible outside. Although it'd be very easy to replace, finding spare parts was very hard here so I sold it. Z13/32gb/1tb is around $2000 here where I live, and M2 14" 32gb/1tb is $3500.
Man, I miss my Arch Linux sometimes.
Man, I miss my Arch Linux sometimes.
Is there a difference between the Ubuntu oem image and what you get from the Ubuntu website? Asking because when my Gen 1 AMD T14s was new it was listed as fully compatible but the trackpoint would skip due to a firmware issue specific to Linux. Had I known I’d have gone a different direction.
The OEM kernel is available in the repo too, though requires that the kernel in the ISO works enough for your hardware to get to that point. More info about that OEM kernel is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/OEMKernel, and worth looking into when you have really new hardware and running slightly older OS releases.
Anyone can comment on Carbon X1 compared to the Z13?
I don't know how to permalink to my other comment, but my experience is the below:
> I got the Z13 as my personal and loved it so much I got the Z16 for work.
> I was very displeased with the quality on the X1 Carbon Gen 9 I had for work before that, felt like a $400 laptop. Just creaky thin plastic everywhere, the click buttons worked 1/10th of the time, awful trackpad. Also the the crtl-alt-fn key placement on the X series is ridiculous.
> basically I wanted macbook-level hardware quality, with easy Linux support (safe for the now-long-gone butterfly keyboard issues) I figured Z series would be the closest thing and it has really delivered.
> I wish there were an in-between size - more screen real estate than the Z13, but not as gigantic and hefty as the Z16.
> I got the Z13 as my personal and loved it so much I got the Z16 for work.
> I was very displeased with the quality on the X1 Carbon Gen 9 I had for work before that, felt like a $400 laptop. Just creaky thin plastic everywhere, the click buttons worked 1/10th of the time, awful trackpad. Also the the crtl-alt-fn key placement on the X series is ridiculous.
> basically I wanted macbook-level hardware quality, with easy Linux support (safe for the now-long-gone butterfly keyboard issues) I figured Z series would be the closest thing and it has really delivered.
> I wish there were an in-between size - more screen real estate than the Z13, but not as gigantic and hefty as the Z16.
> I don't know how to permalink to my other comment, but my experience is the below
The link is in the timestamp ("4 hours ago"...):
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37313887
The link is in the timestamp ("4 hours ago"...):
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37313887
nice, thank you!
Don't buy Intel at this point. Maybe the Meteor Lake Carbon will be better.
For context, battery life has cratered on some Thinkpad models (e.g. X1 Nano) with the latest Intel CPUs. This is partially Lenovo's fault for choosing higher-power lower-efficiency CPUs (and of course partially just Intel CPUs being more power-hungry than AMD's).
I have an XPS 13 9310 w/ Ubuntu 20.04 from work. It's decent, surprisingly very few issues. The battery life isn't exceptional but it's not dissappointing. I just wish it had more ports, even at the cost of being thicker.
Perfect timing! I listened to that podcast when it first aired and am currently laptop shopping. I wanted to recall what Wimpress bought but couldn't pinpoint the episode. So thrilled to see this pop up on the top of HackerNews!
When you close the lid, does the Z13 hibernate?
I have a P1 and I do a full power-off when I put it in my bag. Too many times I’ve pulled my laptop out of my backpack, fans screaming, and it’s hot. The P1 might be the worst ThinkPad I’ve owned.
I have a P1 and I do a full power-off when I put it in my bag. Too many times I’ve pulled my laptop out of my backpack, fans screaming, and it’s hot. The P1 might be the worst ThinkPad I’ve owned.
I’ve been daily-driving Fedora on an Ryzen 5 Thinkpad E14 gen. 2 for almost two years; it works flawlessly except for some issues with how the Bluetooth and power management interact with the laptop on battery power. The lack of a metallic skeleton makes the E14 quite a bit flimsier than proper Thinkpads, but it being a sub-$1k laptop this is acceptable for me.
That said, having finished my undergrad with that laptop, I am in the market for a new one as I embark on my master’s - so an article (and associated comment section) like this is just what I’ve been waiting for!
That said, having finished my undergrad with that laptop, I am in the market for a new one as I embark on my master’s - so an article (and associated comment section) like this is just what I’ve been waiting for!
I love my E14 Gen 2. It’s actually sturdier than some of my other ThinkPads and I bought it on a whim with the explicit purpose of running ChromeOS Flex—works flawlessly.
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I use a T14 Gen 3 with Ubuntu (23.04 - KDE) and it really works flawlessly, even the fingerprint reader and the touchscreen. Battery life is great as well (or at least nearly as good as when running Windows). The only problem occurs sometimes when having the laptop connected to multiple external monitors, putting it to sleep, unplugging the monitors and then waking it up, which will make it crash. I'm not sure if that's an issue related to the laptop or the USB-C dock though.
Since moving our dev environment onto remove VMs, laptop choice has become much easier. Battery isn't drained as much by tests/VMs/containers, RAM isn't as much of a concern, mac ARM vs x86 isn't an issue anymore.
Used same pattern as slack - https://slack.engineering/remote-development-at-slack/
Used same pattern as slack - https://slack.engineering/remote-development-at-slack/
Please know, in the USA, when you customize the device, you don't get to choose your operating system. It's Windows or Windows.
I don't think that's correct. I am in the USA and when I configure it, I can pick windows, Ubuntu, fedora or no preinsalled OS. Funnily enough, Ubuntu option is $25 cheaper than no OS option.
Are you on the US site? https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/configurator/cto/index.html?bun...
You can just install Linux anyway right?
They lost my business just there
Has anyone here used the Framework laptop with the 7040? I've been tempted but I recently changed my work laptop to a 14" M1 MBP, and I work literally all day without plugging in the laptop...Its like black magic. I'm really hoping there is something similar that is meant for Linux.
OMG they fixed the ctrl/Fn problem. I literally returned a Dell laptop because the ctrl key was on the left edge and the useless unprogrammable Fn key was in ctrls rightful spot.
Edit: Wait. Now I'm not sure what you want.
Ya'll are wrong. Mac keyboard is "the way".
Edit: Wait. Now I'm not sure what you want.
Ya'll are wrong. Mac keyboard is "the way".
The control key should be the bottom-most, left-most key on the keyboard. It should also be a different size or shape from the FN key so that you can tell it by feel.
I understand 100% where your coming from, thats just not the thinkpad way.
Well, it can be if you swap the keys over in the BIOS.
Control is supposed to be on the left edge. That way you use the meat of your hand to use the control key, not a finger.
Fn should be at the top, FFS.
I can't press Fn and any key on the right side of the keyboard on T440 with one hand and my hands aren't small.
I can't press Fn and any key on the right side of the keyboard on T440 with one hand and my hands aren't small.
Why not one of the coreboot/openec powered machines from System76? Purism kinda...sucks lately, but there's also Tuxedo computers, the KDE laptop, and others as well...
There's also starlabs but their ship time is atrocious.
There's also starlabs but their ship time is atrocious.
I bought a Tuxedo with one of the first Gen3 AMD processors available, and even though the machine it's mostly OK, the build quality and the battery are terrible. I have a Thinkpad P14s for work which is miles ahead on those fronts.
>System76
>starlabs
Have you used a Thinkpad?
The brands you mention do not quite measure up in terms of overall quality.
Have you used a Thinkpad?
The brands you mention do not quite measure up in terms of overall quality.
Lenovo and quality aren't two words I associate together anymore. The IBM thinkpads were great, I have a pile of them in my storage. In fact I have both some Lenovo and IBM branded T60 and T4XX models. The IBM units have obviously more bulk to them, and the lids are stronger with more metal inside...
I prioritize Coreboot and OpenEC over all else, Lenovo is known for security issues with their machines in the past and occasionally cripple features and even Linux boot support. Their track record is awful. If you're a tinkerer, why would you buy a ferrari you're not able or allowed to work on?
The higher end premium System76 machines are of excellent quality. The Serval WS - which I ordered 2 weeks ago - is such an example.
I prioritize Coreboot and OpenEC over all else, Lenovo is known for security issues with their machines in the past and occasionally cripple features and even Linux boot support. Their track record is awful. If you're a tinkerer, why would you buy a ferrari you're not able or allowed to work on?
The higher end premium System76 machines are of excellent quality. The Serval WS - which I ordered 2 weeks ago - is such an example.
In addition the starlabs machines and tuxedo machines are ridiculous in terms of quality, even going as far as using cherry switches on their keyboards now...in the models well beyond my price point.
I realize everyone hates on clevo but it's only the lower end models that really suffer "quality" issues.
I realize everyone hates on clevo but it's only the lower end models that really suffer "quality" issues.
I have 2 clevo notebooks, one for 5 years one for 2. They seem pretty ok. The second one seems much nicer than the first. The first one had a fan that died (how I figured out it was a clevo, it was on the laptop label as I was buying a replacement)
Starlabs designs and manufactures their own chassis, they should not be lumped in with System76 here.
The bigger problem with Starlabs is the wait times can be brutal.
The bigger problem with Starlabs is the wait times can be brutal.
The wait time is what kept me from ordering one, actually. I love everything they're doing but don't want to get stuck like I did when I bought into the kickstarter for the purism librem5...which sits in it's box on my shelf...
for now the System76 machines are mostly just rebadged (and corebooted) Clevos.
The ones that aren't Clevos are rebadged from other brands.
There are endless complaints about their build quality, keyboard plastic warped and peeling off and just destroyed after a couple years.
System76 is developing their own laptop though, which I will be keeping an eye on
The ones that aren't Clevos are rebadged from other brands.
There are endless complaints about their build quality, keyboard plastic warped and peeling off and just destroyed after a couple years.
System76 is developing their own laptop though, which I will be keeping an eye on
I realize all this...
But my HP Spectre died (I know, don't laugh) - 8th gen i7. It was...fine...I almost finished porting coreboot but the EC init I never could get working right.
That said the Serval WS and other more premium builds, while clevos, are repairable, supported, and have parts and manuals available. I realize I could buy a clevo or get a clevo from Tuxedo (and pay 5k if I want one with a mech keyboard and a 4090 inside) but then determining if the Sys76 coreboot and ec firmwares would work on it would be a whole other journey that I'm not really interested in right now.
With most manufacturers, even if they have longevity, you're still stuck most of the time figuring stuff out on your own and buying from China or Ebay to repair when something breaks...at least System76 supports their products fully and provides repair guides.
But my HP Spectre died (I know, don't laugh) - 8th gen i7. It was...fine...I almost finished porting coreboot but the EC init I never could get working right.
That said the Serval WS and other more premium builds, while clevos, are repairable, supported, and have parts and manuals available. I realize I could buy a clevo or get a clevo from Tuxedo (and pay 5k if I want one with a mech keyboard and a 4090 inside) but then determining if the Sys76 coreboot and ec firmwares would work on it would be a whole other journey that I'm not really interested in right now.
With most manufacturers, even if they have longevity, you're still stuck most of the time figuring stuff out on your own and buying from China or Ebay to repair when something breaks...at least System76 supports their products fully and provides repair guides.
Will have to disagree that the big bump over the screen is beautiful to look at from any angle.
> An error occurred: API rate limit exceeded for flexiondotorg/flexiondotorg.github.io. Sign in to increase the rate limit
Why would I want to do that?
> An error occurred: API rate limit exceeded for flexiondotorg/flexiondotorg.github.io. Sign in to increase the rate limit
Why would I want to do that?
I got a yoga x1 with the i7-1370P. Very strong cpu, great memory, turns into a tablet, very lightweight, no dedicated nvidia GPU, great battery life.
It's all fun and games until you try using it with multiple monitors, a docking station, and KVM... :(
I took a look at the Lenovo (Canada) site, but there's no Linux options for the Z13. Is this a regional thing?
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I just set up a T14s with Tumbleweed and it's probably the best Linux laptop experience I've had so far.
The Thinkpad series are a safe bet for Linux and Windows laptop workhorses! Amazing build quality overall.
They can be found in a few other models now and if I was going to switch off macOS full time it'd be a hard requirement for hardware for me.
https://sensel.com