“I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”(mail.python.org)
mail.python.org
“I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/2018-July/005664.html
721 comments
It is sad but needs to happen with every BDFL, I really like the tone of the email and I am sure the python core devs would figure out something. :)
Finally, Guido if you are reading this, thanks for everything you have done for the language and especially the community behind it. I partly owe loving what I do to you. Hope taking this break would help you be happier.
Finally, Guido if you are reading this, thanks for everything you have done for the language and especially the community behind it. I partly owe loving what I do to you. Hope taking this break would help you be happier.
Python was my first programming language, ~15 years ago. The bracket- and semicolon-free syntax is beautiful and approachable to this day. Python is my go-to for writing data format conversion scripts. I wrote a random sentence generator in Python 10 years ago that gave me and my friends hours of entertainment.
Thanks, Guido, for the good times!
Thanks, Guido, for the good times!
I haven't used Python in many years, but it was the first programming language I really could say I loved. Everything was was either completely in tune with my intuition or well-documented.
I had a lot of fun with Python, and I learned a lot about programming by (ab)using it. I am very grateful to Guido van Rossum and the work he has done, and I wish him all the best for his future.
I had a lot of fun with Python, and I learned a lot about programming by (ab)using it. I am very grateful to Guido van Rossum and the work he has done, and I wish him all the best for his future.
Even though I write python only if it’s going to be like 200 loc tops, it’s insane how gracefully the language has aged. It came out in 91, thus predating for example Java. Fun fact, I believe the very first google scraper was written in it.
At the same time I can’t wait for the next language to replace it.
At the same time I can’t wait for the next language to replace it.
>Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a
PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.
PEP 572: Python assignment expressions has been accepted
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17448439
PEP 572: Python assignment expressions has been accepted
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17448439
It's going to be very interesting to see if things like:
- pattern matching
- inline exception catching
- path inclusion in the built in
- more functional tooling
- lazy keywors
That were BDFL-blocked, will go back to be debated in the mailing list in the next months.
And if yes, will the community stands by its root or create a new era ?
The consequences of which we will only really see in 10 years.
Guido as done an incredible job at being the boogie man, keeping the language simple and readable. It's a hard job.
Can we pull it off ?
- pattern matching
- inline exception catching
- path inclusion in the built in
- more functional tooling
- lazy keywors
That were BDFL-blocked, will go back to be debated in the mailing list in the next months.
And if yes, will the community stands by its root or create a new era ?
The consequences of which we will only really see in 10 years.
Guido as done an incredible job at being the boogie man, keeping the language simple and readable. It's a hard job.
Can we pull it off ?
Excluding the 2/3 debacle, Guido has overseen an incredible progression in Python. It has become a contemporary lingua franca for coding, and the concept of a “pythonic” approach has been hugely influential.
I’m disappointed that he broke Eric Raymond’s rule: “When you lose interest in a program, your last duty to it is to hand it off to a competent successor.”
The email sounds bitter, which is tremendously sad, and I hope that after a break Guido will be able to oversee a more constructive transition.
I’m disappointed that he broke Eric Raymond’s rule: “When you lose interest in a program, your last duty to it is to hand it off to a competent successor.”
The email sounds bitter, which is tremendously sad, and I hope that after a break Guido will be able to oversee a more constructive transition.
Background ("PEP 572 and decision-making in Python"):
https://lwn.net/Articles/757713/
https://lwn.net/Articles/757713/
Open source burnout is real. I'm sure the allure of giving back by creating something useful fades when people constantly criticize your work, especially when you look at the personal and professional sacrifices you're making to produce free software.
When I first started getting into programming (was not a CS major in college) everybody said to start learning Python first.
I started digging in and a lot of concepts were easy to grasp and I learned quite a bit until I started doing front-end work and I stopped working with it.
This year, my buddy who got me into it originally, suggested I look at django and I've been having fun with that in the past few months. Made me think about picking Python back up and working with it again as the front-end scene is just so crazy right now.
I started digging in and a lot of concepts were easy to grasp and I learned quite a bit until I started doing front-end work and I stopped working with it.
This year, my buddy who got me into it originally, suggested I look at django and I've been having fun with that in the past few months. Made me think about picking Python back up and working with it again as the front-end scene is just so crazy right now.
> I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a
PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.
Leading a large open source project must be terrible in this age of constant outrage :-(
Leading a large open source project must be terrible in this age of constant outrage :-(
I'm not at all optimistic about this. I understand Guido's motives and sympathise with him, but I'm afraid this will have a very detrimental effect on Python and how its development is managed.
He says: "... I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions." I can only imagine what might happen without a single decision-maker -- just think of all the vitriol that was thrown about the migration to Python 3. At best there will be endless discussions, often being decided in favour of whoever was the loudest and most aggressive on the mailing list; at worst, we might end up with multiple competing forks of Python specification and implementations...
I'm hoping that the PSF will be able to elect a single "product owner"; I don't expect them to have the same amount of influence and respect Guido had, but it would be a good start.
He says: "... I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions." I can only imagine what might happen without a single decision-maker -- just think of all the vitriol that was thrown about the migration to Python 3. At best there will be endless discussions, often being decided in favour of whoever was the loudest and most aggressive on the mailing list; at worst, we might end up with multiple competing forks of Python specification and implementations...
I'm hoping that the PSF will be able to elect a single "product owner"; I don't expect them to have the same amount of influence and respect Guido had, but it would be a good start.
All this over a god damn bikeshed that no one will care one way or the other about 6 months after its implemented. He didn't loose faith after the 2->3 transitioner but but a goddamn assignment operator that works just like so many other languages.
I mean it was bound to happen at some point, but I am really disheartened that it happened in this way.
I mean it was bound to happen at some point, but I am really disheartened that it happened in this way.
Sorry Guido but it’s BDFL — for LIFE! Just kidding and Thanks Guido for all you’ve done for the Python community.
For what it's worth, the variant of syntax Guido pushed is a really good choice and the fact that the mailing list "widely opposed" it only tells of the participants.
This is just my personal opinion.
This is just my personal opinion.
Now this is a very dangerous situation, looking how perl5 was handled after Larry wall left them and stepped over to perl6.
Constant infighting of the core devs, useless communication on the mailing list, not a single worthwhile feature being implemented in 15 years, even if perl6 and Larry designed tons of them suitable for perl5, total destruction of the syntax and the core. The better counterexample was perl6 with stricter processes and some capable devs remaining, but still it's another minefield.
Good luck, tons of work to do. python 3 could get 10x faster and catch up to php7 or javascript, types could get properly integrated but I don't see it coming. Usually you have to expect the worst.
Constant infighting of the core devs, useless communication on the mailing list, not a single worthwhile feature being implemented in 15 years, even if perl6 and Larry designed tons of them suitable for perl5, total destruction of the syntax and the core. The better counterexample was perl6 with stricter processes and some capable devs remaining, but still it's another minefield.
Good luck, tons of work to do. python 3 could get 10x faster and catch up to php7 or javascript, types could get properly integrated but I don't see it coming. Usually you have to expect the worst.
Python is the language I chose to teach my 7 yr old daughter. Much thanks to the uncluttered syntax which requires a minimum number of explanations of non-essential parts of a program.
Thanks Guido for giving us Python!
Thanks Guido for giving us Python!
As someone who used Python for more than a decade, a few months ago when I saw PEP 572 and that Guido liked it I knew that it would be by far the most controversial one ever.
And I was very concerned that there was no outside community involvement. This is one where there should have been a lot of publicity around, and the community should have been asked (on r/python, r/programming, HN, ...)
It's sad to see this, but it's not surprising to me. In general the Python community at large accepted Guido's decisions, but this one was too much of a shock, and when the python-dev discussions where so heated, you can only imagine the response from outside.
And I was very concerned that there was no outside community involvement. This is one where there should have been a lot of publicity around, and the community should have been asked (on r/python, r/programming, HN, ...)
It's sad to see this, but it's not surprising to me. In general the Python community at large accepted Guido's decisions, but this one was too much of a shock, and when the python-dev discussions where so heated, you can only imagine the response from outside.
This is sad to see, but necessary at some point, as others have said. We should all thank him for his contributions, and for the advances in data science experiments enabled by Python's ease of use, good design, and advanced features.
I am glad that Python is recognized as the quality language it is.
Perhaps it's synchronicity that in other news this week Elon Musk triple hearted Python, https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1016002749446516737.
I am glad that Python is recognized as the quality language it is.
Perhaps it's synchronicity that in other news this week Elon Musk triple hearted Python, https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1016002749446516737.
Yikes. Python has become so hugely popular and is used for so many different use cases that I fear the ecosystem is going to really struggle to find consistency and direction without a dictator.
It is Great to see the speed at which wikipedia has updated this occurrence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_van_Rossum
Reading that thread is like reading an actual Monty Python plot.
Guido van Rossum has given his life for this language and besides the obligatory 'thanks for all the fish' there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all.
Instead it's 'kthxbye' and they're already dividing up the cake to see who gets to rule.
Not the nicest moment in the history of FOSS, I wonder what kind of a mess will ensue when Linus steps down.
Guido van Rossum has given his life for this language and besides the obligatory 'thanks for all the fish' there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all.
Instead it's 'kthxbye' and they're already dividing up the cake to see who gets to rule.
Not the nicest moment in the history of FOSS, I wonder what kind of a mess will ensue when Linus steps down.
Guido van Rossum, "the creator of python", created the following page to show he has aged over the years:
https://gvanrossum.github.io/pics.html
I prefer perl, but thanks for python!
Diversity is good always :)
https://gvanrossum.github.io/pics.html
I prefer perl, but thanks for python!
Diversity is good always :)
It takes someone dedicated to do what you have done for this long. You need the vacation more than anyone else. I wish you had a tip bucket somewhere and I’ll gladly donate for some of your vacation cost, simply a thank you tip for your tireless effort.
Thanks Guido. Python was my primary language from around 2004 - 2017. I've had the chance to present at Pycon a couple of times and get my feet wet in contributing to open source projects with Python. Best of luck.
Thank you Guido for creating and shepherding such an amazing language one that has been my go to language for years for its ecosystem and it’s beauty. Seriously thank you so much.
Can someone paraphrase why PEP 572 was disliked by so many people?
To Guido, a career's worth of thanks (I doubt I would have had one without Python) and for being encouraging and supportive to a very young dev at a long ago conference - to keep that up over decades means encouragement, mentoring and optimism was bred in your bones. Have a lovely permanent vacation.
To the python community, I hope we can find a successful, democratic way forward.
To myself, public service is a good thing - try harder !
To the python community, I hope we can find a successful, democratic way forward.
To myself, public service is a good thing - try harder !
"bus lurking around the corner" caused me a Family Guy style flashback.
"Like that time [victim of an unsolved bus stop stabbing] was killed by a bus." victim sitting alone at a bus stop. glint of light from the dark alley in back. bus jumps out, stabs victim. bus enters street, transforms into normal bus, drives off.
"Like that time [victim of an unsolved bus stop stabbing] was killed by a bus." victim sitting alone at a bus stop. glint of light from the dark alley in back. bus jumps out, stabs victim. bus enters street, transforms into normal bus, drives off.
It's amazing he managed to not explode at somebody. I know i would have if our roles had been reversed in some exchanges we had.
Good writers, comedians or directors know when to quit at the top their carreer.
I think he is quitting before the situation was too taxing and that is wise and courageous. Espacially since it's been more than 2 decades of service.
Plus he is leaving his baby.
That's an amazing move.