China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains(reuters.com)
reuters.com
China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-credit/china-to-bar-people-with-bad-social-credit-from-planes-trains-idUSKCN1GS10S
562 comments
To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system.
Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.'
The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'
Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.'
The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'
From http://www.collective-evolution.com/2017/10/26/black-mirror-...
"You won’t be eligible for … positions in public office … social security and welfare … senior level positions in the food and drug sector … sleep in a bed in overnight trains … higher-starred hotels and restaurants … Your children … won’t be allowed to attend more expensive private schools …
We have made extreme advancements in health care because people found flaws in previous practices and had faith that they could improve them. This can be applied to quite literally every single industry, which is why these ranking systems could negatively affect growth, innovation, and our entire economic system as a whole.
If we can no longer challenge our current state of being and question our surroundings, then how can we continue to advance as a collective? As a collective, many of our strengths lie in our differences. A diverse society includes people with all different strengths and brackets of knowledge, but if we’re all racing to get a better ranking, then we could lose a lot of those differences in trying to become “people pleasers” and adhering to social norms."
"You won’t be eligible for … positions in public office … social security and welfare … senior level positions in the food and drug sector … sleep in a bed in overnight trains … higher-starred hotels and restaurants … Your children … won’t be allowed to attend more expensive private schools …
We have made extreme advancements in health care because people found flaws in previous practices and had faith that they could improve them. This can be applied to quite literally every single industry, which is why these ranking systems could negatively affect growth, innovation, and our entire economic system as a whole.
If we can no longer challenge our current state of being and question our surroundings, then how can we continue to advance as a collective? As a collective, many of our strengths lie in our differences. A diverse society includes people with all different strengths and brackets of knowledge, but if we’re all racing to get a better ranking, then we could lose a lot of those differences in trying to become “people pleasers” and adhering to social norms."
The thing that worries me most about the autocracy in China is that all of these Orwellian measures would actually work and then would be pointed out as an example to abandon our civil liberties in favor of a system that may be big brotherly but at least "your kids will always be safe, never be close to any bad person" (By We I'm referring to Democracies).
It may also be a uniquely Chinese thing too though. China has had very powerful Central States for an extremely long time (not just the CPC but all the emperors and what have you). Perhaps that's just the "Chinese Way": absolutist State which largely works for most of the people?
It may also be a uniquely Chinese thing too though. China has had very powerful Central States for an extremely long time (not just the CPC but all the emperors and what have you). Perhaps that's just the "Chinese Way": absolutist State which largely works for most of the people?
If anyone wants to see some of the negative effects of a persistent 'social score' that affects real life I recommend this Black Mirror episode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive.
This illustrates the difference between having laws and enforcing them. Some countries have strict laws, but little enforcement, so marginalized people can break these laws as long as they fly under the radar. With technology, it becomes trivial to implement enforcement for even draconic laws at a scale previously unfathomable. Also, they seem to be rolling it out slowly. It reminds of the metaphorical boiling frog syndome[1], where the frog realizes what predicament it is in, but too late.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog
If the author of this article has read the original announcement from either Chinese government or various sources from China, they'll know the so called "people with bad social credit" that'll get these restrictions is defined very clearly, and yet it mentioned only a tiny bit of it in very misleading way. Many of the actions described in the definition would put you in jail in US. Whether they're intentionally misleading people is anybody's guess.
There are many paragraphs clarifying the definition either here: http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879653.html
Or here: http://www.ce.cn/xwzx/gnsz/gdxw/201803/16/t20180316_28505546...
There is also clearly defined way to lift the restrictions as defined in the NDRC announcement. Most of the restrictions are removed automatically in one year. Certainly not "once untrustworthy, always restricted"
There are many paragraphs clarifying the definition either here: http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879653.html
Or here: http://www.ce.cn/xwzx/gnsz/gdxw/201803/16/t20180316_28505546...
There is also clearly defined way to lift the restrictions as defined in the NDRC announcement. Most of the restrictions are removed automatically in one year. Certainly not "once untrustworthy, always restricted"
I am Chinese and I can see how this can be exploited by both vigilente groups and the government to target individuals using the "spreading false information" clause alone. There are so many ways to trick people into spreading false information. More importantly, people are not the one to decide what is considered "false", the government is.
It might be ok to make people with bad credit harder to purchase non life-essential stuff such as cars (you heard it, cars are not essentials in many countries), but they shouldn't be treated as criminals.
It might be ok to make people with bad credit harder to purchase non life-essential stuff such as cars (you heard it, cars are not essentials in many countries), but they shouldn't be treated as criminals.
To be fair we ban people with felony convictions from huge swathes of jobs, formally or informally, even if the crime happened decades ago. Also, good luck finding a place to live legally if you've been convicted of a sex crime.
Truly a dystopia. I hope someday citizens rebel against this nightmare
"China said it will begin applying its so-called social credit ... and stop people who have committed misdeeds from taking such transport for up to a year."
Here in the US, you can get banned from air travel permanently, and you don't even need to do anything wrong!
Here in the US, you can get banned from air travel permanently, and you don't even need to do anything wrong!
If someone were given dark money and tasked with destabilizing the Chinese govt, I can easily seem them doing the following:
* taking half the funds and putting it into think tanks that write pro social credit pieces with an earnest focus on making it more accurate and efficient from a technical standpoint (plus perhaps lobbying for its implementation in the West, for street cred)
* taking the other half and putting it towards anti-govt movements within China, using the info gleaned from the think tanks to provide counter-surveillance techniques
The counter-surveillance techniques will cause the govt to invest in more surveillance tech and clamp down tighter on the population. That enforcement will further fuel the anti-govt groups to become more radicalized.
Of course, I'm just armchair quarterbacking this based on vaguely remembering the news around the buildup and aftermath of the Iraq war. I'm sure the Chinese government has thought through these problems more deeply than I have.
edit: grammar
* taking half the funds and putting it into think tanks that write pro social credit pieces with an earnest focus on making it more accurate and efficient from a technical standpoint (plus perhaps lobbying for its implementation in the West, for street cred)
* taking the other half and putting it towards anti-govt movements within China, using the info gleaned from the think tanks to provide counter-surveillance techniques
The counter-surveillance techniques will cause the govt to invest in more surveillance tech and clamp down tighter on the population. That enforcement will further fuel the anti-govt groups to become more radicalized.
Of course, I'm just armchair quarterbacking this based on vaguely remembering the news around the buildup and aftermath of the Iraq war. I'm sure the Chinese government has thought through these problems more deeply than I have.
edit: grammar
Shenzhen gov are using facial recognition to detect pedestrians running through the red light[0]. Their even release high quality pictures without mosaic in the first version, just a few days ago.
[0]https://www.stc.gov.cn/facei/
[0]https://www.stc.gov.cn/facei/
Remember, with the Great Firewall: "China is the prototype." (My words, back when.)
They started off purchasing and as an initial market as well as testing ground for Western technology and Western technology companies.
Now, China has gained the technology and sophistication to roll their own.
But that doesn't mean they won't market it, both commercially and to aid their allies in creating and maintaining similar forms of governance and stability (at the tip of an connection, if not a gun).
So, they may be building this domestically, from the ground up. Nonetheless, the expression remains and remains apt, and concerning: "China is the prototype."
Many people around the world, in government and in private business, continue to express enormous interest in this type of monitoring and control.
In the U.K., of all places, that "bastion of democracy", leadership is openly advocating for the ability to monitor and censure all connections.
They are going to control with whom you communicate and associate, by way of real world penalties and controls.
In the U.S., what greater limit on "freedom to associate" than taking away one's ability to travel?
"It can't, won't happen here."
Ahuh. Just like outsourcing was going to elevate our employment prospects and wages. "We'll be the managers."
How did that work out?
Automation is going to get a lot more done with less hands. How do you think they are going to decide who benefits?
They started off purchasing and as an initial market as well as testing ground for Western technology and Western technology companies.
Now, China has gained the technology and sophistication to roll their own.
But that doesn't mean they won't market it, both commercially and to aid their allies in creating and maintaining similar forms of governance and stability (at the tip of an connection, if not a gun).
So, they may be building this domestically, from the ground up. Nonetheless, the expression remains and remains apt, and concerning: "China is the prototype."
Many people around the world, in government and in private business, continue to express enormous interest in this type of monitoring and control.
In the U.K., of all places, that "bastion of democracy", leadership is openly advocating for the ability to monitor and censure all connections.
They are going to control with whom you communicate and associate, by way of real world penalties and controls.
In the U.S., what greater limit on "freedom to associate" than taking away one's ability to travel?
"It can't, won't happen here."
Ahuh. Just like outsourcing was going to elevate our employment prospects and wages. "We'll be the managers."
How did that work out?
Automation is going to get a lot more done with less hands. How do you think they are going to decide who benefits?
1. Yes, Chinese society values different things from Western societies on average, but there is a wide range of values in each society and a great deal of overlap with universal expectations, so don't brush it aside as a difference in culture or political desires.
2. This is going way beyond tradition or culture. Nobody enjoys this.
3. It is being pushed through for the very simple fact that it can be pushed through. Take note: politics is groups of people trying to gain advantage over others and an equilibrium requires a vigorous defense of the smallest things that are yours; without pushback you lose what's yours; nobody will grant to you, only take away.
4. Norms and ideals matter. This is being set as the norm in China, whereas other examples in Western countries are at least considered transgressions against the norm. The delineations are in different places and the outcomes will absolutely not be the same even if they look superficially similar.
2. This is going way beyond tradition or culture. Nobody enjoys this.
3. It is being pushed through for the very simple fact that it can be pushed through. Take note: politics is groups of people trying to gain advantage over others and an equilibrium requires a vigorous defense of the smallest things that are yours; without pushback you lose what's yours; nobody will grant to you, only take away.
4. Norms and ideals matter. This is being set as the norm in China, whereas other examples in Western countries are at least considered transgressions against the norm. The delineations are in different places and the outcomes will absolutely not be the same even if they look superficially similar.
China is doing this explicitly, but the West has been doing this implicitly for a while. Doxxing people with the "wrong" opinion and emailing their employers, friends, etc. I pretty regularly see if on Facebook where someone says something and their post or a screenshot of their post is shared hundreds of thousands of times with test that says "make this person famous". To be clear people should be called out for bigoted speech. An internet lynch mob though solves nothing and just creates a forever alienated group of people outside of society with little to no stake in the future. We all, as in humanity, could use understanding the nuance of stopping bad behavior while also forgiving people for their pasts. I don't have all the answers, but I guess I wrote this as it's just a generally worrying trend I see with the internet overall.
Bear in mind that discussions about Chinese matters may be rigged by the 50 cent army.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
The good news about this social credit system is that China's self driving cars will be able to make more optimal decisions about who lives and dies when a crash is inevitable. Isn't innovation wonderful!?
China has been working on this for a while, and barring people from transportation is not the scary bit. That's last-century scary. No, it's the emergence of a new sort of ideological warfare making use of the recent knowledge developed in gaming industry that is the scary bit. This is a new kind of threat, something we as humans haven't learned how to deal with.
Here's some analysis from a game designer from 2015: https://youtu.be/lHcTKWiZ8sI
Here's some analysis from a game designer from 2015: https://youtu.be/lHcTKWiZ8sI
This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI) came out almost 3 years ago..
Putting aside the specifics of the system in China, the underlying issues are a problem all countries need to explore. On many near capacity public systems it only takes a few bad actors to completely foul things up for entire sections, eg delaying a subway line.
Traditional social pressure seems not to work anymore, for instance with this case on a train in the UK: https://youtu.be/2mpKu_x2s3w
In that case the train was delayed until eventually the guard said they had to allow the smoker to stay on the train or it would affect the line! Part of their argument was there were no signs saying you couldn't smoke on the train (smoking is illegal inside in any public spaces!)
I hope our era will be remembered for something other than the abject failure of liberal democracy. The US and Europe are struggling/sabotaging themselves, while Russia and China just consolidate their power. Africa keeps burning. India will take the Sino-Russian path no doubt.
This is WONDERFUL! no really. The first step to a world without money . Imagine a powerful govt AI keeping track of your karma and then determining what you can access, get or use. There won't be any shortcuts or cheats. People with a lot of money will be on the same level as people without. The currency of success will be the help we give to each other. The only way this can work is of course a powerfully networked AI that is transparent. So if somebody seems to be at the top of the heap, everybody else can audit his/her behavior data to see how he/she got there. If this system is not transparent, then it is just another tool for the powerful to exploit the weak.
http://www.asiaone.com/china/woman-china-delays-high-speed-t...
If you read this article, you will at least understand the reason why they introduce such law.
With 1.6 billion people, it's common to see chaos when a single person doesn't follow the rules, that woman in the news is a typical example. She didn't get any punishment from the railway company, nor the police can do anything about her behaviour, simply because there is no such law exists. In the end, she got suspended from her job as a primary teacher!
If you read this article, you will at least understand the reason why they introduce such law.
With 1.6 billion people, it's common to see chaos when a single person doesn't follow the rules, that woman in the news is a typical example. She didn't get any punishment from the railway company, nor the police can do anything about her behaviour, simply because there is no such law exists. In the end, she got suspended from her job as a primary teacher!
This article is typical western fear-mongering. China can already arbitrarily detain political dissidents if they want to. This "social credit score" is nothing more than an elaborate system to enforce misdemeanor laws.
Are we sure this is dystopian enough? I love the idea of taking someone who might be marginalized and marginalizing them even further, but how can we make sure it is passed down through the generations to their family?
And it's not only that they can do this at all as if this wan't already bad enough; on top of that neither the media, nor anyone else for that matter, can discuss/critizice this in public other than to admire it.
Harmony.
Harmony.
So what's the current exchange rate between social credit and Yen?
What a terrifying time to be alive.
The systems/databases that will process/store the relevant social credit information will be prime targets for exploitation as this becomes more intertwined with practical daily life and automated systems.
Imagine being able to shut out a billion people variably by tampering with such and affecting the economy to a great degree.
And people complain about the evolving landscape of DDOS attacks now…
Imagine being able to shut out a billion people variably by tampering with such and affecting the economy to a great degree.
And people complain about the evolving landscape of DDOS attacks now…
I am a Chinese expat, but I don't have a National ID. I have a Chinese passport, but I cannot even buy train tickets online (yet i can ride the train) with it and I cannot open a bank account in my own country. Things will get worse with 'social credit' as another barrier because I won't have a credit history with them.
[edit] removed claim that Chinese expat won't be able to fly in China without National ID because some say the viral news is a rumor. Honestly i cannot tell any more.