holygoat · HackerTrans

You should really take the time to set up 1.5, or just use Mozilla's hosted sync service. You're probably burning more time schlepping installers around and doing upgrades… not to mention the Sync 1.1 server code is ancient, so the infra you're running it on is probably riddled with vulnerabilities.

holygoat

9년 전discuss

Might be https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=697649, or something linked from there.

holygoat

9년 전discuss

Note that we do store the full transaction log, just like Datomic, and Mentat will allow querying of it (and replication, and replay, and…). We haven't implemented history querying yet because we haven't needed it for application code.

The trick with Datomic is that every time you grab a `db` instance, it's a snapshot, and the system's index chunking and storage replication are necessarily built around the ability to continue using those older index chunks, potentially for a very long time.

Most consumers, most of the time, just want to query the store as it stands at that moment, but Datomic peers pay the space and time penalty of keeping and retrieving historical index chunks in order to answer those historical queries.

My current thoughts are:

1. To allow for short-term snapshot querying through something like `db.keep()`, implemented via a SQLite read transaction. That's not free: the database WAL will continue to grow until the read transaction is ended, so it isn't ideal for all workloads, but it'll do.

For some queries it's enough to simply track a last-seen tx value and filter everywhere, but that becomes difficult when cardinality-one and unique-identity properties are considered.

2. The obvious equivalent to Datomic's 'with' is an uncommitted write transaction. Naturally this blocks other writers while it exists, and so alternative implementations (e.g., writing to a complete disk copy of the database, or writing a 'delta' table) might make sense.

At some very hazy point in the future we might try to get SQLite support for this: after all, if we can guarantee that a write transaction won't be committed, we could use a separate WAL file for the `with` and avoid blocking other writers.

3. A longer-term approach to snapshots/DB-as-value is to materialize the datoms at the specified instant in time, either in a temporary table or in a real persisted table. That is: `db.keep_forever()` will give you a new structure to query, and calling code will be responsible for cleaning up that space.

The reason I say "won't be free" is that each of these operations imposes a cost when the feature is used: either SQLite or Mentat will have to do some work to allow an extended period of isolation, to reconstruct some state, or to persist some state.

That's in contrast to Datomic, which imposes some overhead every time index chunks are built or retrieved. It's also an interesting parallel to Clojure vs Rust: Clojure's data structures are persistent by default, giving you snapshots and safety at a cost everyone pays; Rust believes that you shouldn't pay for abstractions you don't use.

holygoat

9년 전discuss

If you want a distributed Datalog store, it will be hard to beat Datomic. AIUI their current license terms are very affordable.

holygoat

9년 전discuss

It's intended for embedding. When complete Mentat will likely sport a Node module, a network protocol + CLI + explorer, and might well be accessible from Firefox extensions via a JavaScript API.

We are several months from that, though!

holygoat

9년 전discuss

Yes. Project Mentat fits into a conceptual lineage that includes Freebase's graphd and 2005-onward Semantic Web stores. We have aimed for compatibility with Datomic and DataScript for least surprise, but if you squint there's a little AllegroGraph in the direction.

Datomic's model (both architectural and conceptual) draws from Clojure's concepts of persistence. That model isn't free, so Mentat deviates from it where it makes sense to do so: at present we don't implement querying of history or past states, for example, and when we do it won't be free.

We'll get closer to full Datomic-style datom store capabilities over time, but we'll make different performance tradeoffs.

holygoat

9년 전discuss

You might be interested in reading this much longer piece, which includes a brief code example, and spends more time than the README explaining the motivation for the project.

https://medium.com/project-tofino/introducing-datomish-a-fle...

holygoat

9년 전discuss

Correct. That has no bearing at all on whether it's smart to write the rest of the library in Rust.

Most non-trivial applications will at some point call out into code written in C, or compiled from some other language. So what?

holygoat

9년 전discuss

It's designed to meet our embedding needs: in Firefox for desktops, Firefox for Android, Firefox for iOS, and Project Tofino (Node + Electron).

Widespread adoption a la SQLite is not one of our goals.

Rust meets our goals just fine… and it also produces demonstrably more correct software than C, which is important to us. (Not to mention leveraging the borrow checker and data race avoidance to provide safe near-automatic parallelization, which is a neat trick that's not in C's quiver.)

I would rather build Mentat in Swift or JavaScript than in C.

holygoat

9년 전discuss

This is the renamed version of Datomish.

The original implementation was in ClojureScript. This reimplementation is in Rust, and is intended to work anywhere you can run Rust code: inside Node, inside Firefox, and in standalone applications.

We expect a WebExtensions API to wrap this inside Firefoxes at some point, but right now we're focused on the core (re)implementation.

holygoat

9년 전discuss

I'm the author of most of those docs, if you'd like answers to any specific questions from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I'll cycle back around and reply to this comment again in a bit.

holygoat

10년 전discuss

That's actually the current state of affairs. Firefox, and Firefox-related products, hang out under the Firefox umbrella brand. Mozilla's policy, outreach, community, and education initiatives -- remember, Mozilla is a non-profit -- use the Mozilla brand.

Mozilla hasn't been a product brand for a long time.

holygoat

10년 전discuss

Do you have Sync enabled?

If you can grab an adb log, come post it in #mobile on irc.mozilla.org.

holygoat

10년 전discuss

sessionstore does not sync.

holygoat

10년 전discuss

sessionstore does not fsync.

holygoat

10년 전discuss

http://whatcanidoformozilla.org is a good starting point.

holygoat

10년 전discuss

Session store contains open tabs, windows, history for each tab, form fields, referrers (so we can re-request the page correctly), titles (so we can restore tabs without re-fetching every page), favicons, charsets, some timestamps, extension data, some kinds of site storage, scroll positions, and a few other things.

The goal of session restore is to restore your session -- your open tabs should come back, the same pages should load, scrolled to the same place, and with the right content.

holygoat

10년 전discuss

15 minutes of coding, perhaps.

Then an hour of writing good tests.

Then lots of manual and automated testing on four or five platforms, and fixing the weird issues you get on Windows XP SP2, or only on 64-bit Linux running in a VM, or whatever.

Then making sure you don't regress startup performance (which you probably will unless you have a really, really slow disk).

Then implementing rock solid migration so you can land this in Nightly through to Beta.

Then a rollback/backout plan, because you might find a bug, and you don't want users to lose their session between Beta 2 and Beta 3.

Large-scale software engineering is mostly not about writing code.

holygoat

11년 전discuss

It doesn't support editing folders on device (yet). Bug 972193.

(Source: I'm one of the engineers.)

holygoat

11년 전discuss

There's a lot more to being a browser -- and being Firefox -- than the web rendering engine. We're able to deliver the kinds of Sync features, private browsing, and so on that we think are important.

(I work on Firefox for Android and iOS, and even _I_ don't really care which rendering engine it uses. I care that I can trust it, that the UX is excellent, and that I have my data.)

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