Transcripts Kept Secret for 60 Years Bolster Defense of Oppenheimer’s Loyalty(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Transcripts Kept Secret for 60 Years Bolster Defense of Oppenheimer’s Loyalty
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/us/transcripts-kept-secret-for-60-years-bolster-defense-of-oppenheimers-loyalty.html?ref=science
5 comments
I don't understand how the absolute power to mark any information secret is compatible with democracy. The way the constitution was designed was to try to balance powers and checks between branches. But there is no check on the executive's ability to mark things secret. In this case the secrecy seems to have just been about covering up an embarrassment. They should not have the power to cover up an embarrassment. Seems like this invented absolute power needs judicial review.
If you think the executive branch has no legitimate purpose in keeping secrets, you should study history.
I think it's pretty reasonable to say the executive branch has no legitimate purpose in keeping secrets from select parts of the judicial and legislative branches. That completely undermines our system of checks and balances, which seems to work quite well otherwise.
Also, there are at least two kinds of secrets to consider: "structural" ones, like "this program exists" and specific details "agent Bob is part of this program". I could see the need to keep some of the latter even from other parts of the government, but it seems the former could do with some review. That's where the problems usually come from, after all: either government programs that overreach their authority or failures swept under the rug. At the same time, they're much less of a security threat than specific details of a program.
Also, there are at least two kinds of secrets to consider: "structural" ones, like "this program exists" and specific details "agent Bob is part of this program". I could see the need to keep some of the latter even from other parts of the government, but it seems the former could do with some review. That's where the problems usually come from, after all: either government programs that overreach their authority or failures swept under the rug. At the same time, they're much less of a security threat than specific details of a program.
"the executive branch has no legitimate purpose in keeping secrets"
I don't think the parent claimed that.
I don't think the parent claimed that.
As an aside:
>In 1953, a former congressional aide charged in a letter to the Federal Bureau of Investigation that the celebrated physicist was a Soviet spy.
The congressional aide's name was William Liscum Borden. If Borden's views had been adopted by the US Government, it is likely that we would have had a nuclear world war[0], instead the US built its strategy on the views of Brodie[1].
[0]: Borden's strategic views http://ethanheilman.tumblr.com/post/29405762446/there-will-b...
[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Brodie_(military_strate...
>In 1953, a former congressional aide charged in a letter to the Federal Bureau of Investigation that the celebrated physicist was a Soviet spy.
The congressional aide's name was William Liscum Borden. If Borden's views had been adopted by the US Government, it is likely that we would have had a nuclear world war[0], instead the US built its strategy on the views of Brodie[1].
[0]: Borden's strategic views http://ethanheilman.tumblr.com/post/29405762446/there-will-b...
[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Brodie_(military_strate...
undermining the idea that it was all somehow a plot by evil Republicans: Borden, the scum who initiated the witch-hunt against Oppenheimer, was a protégé of Democrat Senator McMahon, who was deeply in love with hydrogen bombs. [1]
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brien_McMahon
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brien_McMahon
Borden himself advocated for a one-world government, which is the opposite of the Republican, Bircher, and McCarthyist positions.
I don't see how your citation 0 supports the claim it's attached to. Can you elaborate on the connection?
His belief that nuclear wars would be won by the side that disarmed the other side means that:
1. There is no limit on the number of nuclear weapons that should be built, each side should always strive for more weapons than the other side. Thus, increasing the scale of nuclear wars.
>Nuclear war is so fast that destroying a city does not provide any military benefits to the attacker nor any military costs to a defender.
2. Since the other side will not waste weapons on cities (by his calculus of attacking to disarm), mutually assured destruction will not work and therefore nuclear wars are inevitable and largely bloodless (low human cost).
3. Any time one side has more weapons it should immediately use those weapons to disarm the other side. That is, strike when you gain an advantage even if you have no good cause, since the other side would do the same.
Unfortunately present experience suggests that while cities might not be on the initial target list, once one side started to loss heavily they would likely target the other sides cities to spoil the victors post-war advantage.
1. There is no limit on the number of nuclear weapons that should be built, each side should always strive for more weapons than the other side. Thus, increasing the scale of nuclear wars.
>Nuclear war is so fast that destroying a city does not provide any military benefits to the attacker nor any military costs to a defender.
2. Since the other side will not waste weapons on cities (by his calculus of attacking to disarm), mutually assured destruction will not work and therefore nuclear wars are inevitable and largely bloodless (low human cost).
3. Any time one side has more weapons it should immediately use those weapons to disarm the other side. That is, strike when you gain an advantage even if you have no good cause, since the other side would do the same.
Unfortunately present experience suggests that while cities might not be on the initial target list, once one side started to loss heavily they would likely target the other sides cities to spoil the victors post-war advantage.
The article just confirms to me the reasons that Groves chose Oppenheimer to lead the Manhattan project, Oppenheimer was able to see the bigger picture.
Is any organizational structure resistant to McCarthyism?
The thing I keep telling my younger, more idealistic friends: organizations created by politicians run on political value systems. What Oppenheimer did or not? Not relevant. How he fit into the larger political picture of the cold war? Critical.
Any organization with secrets worth keeping must try to detect spies and repel infiltrators.
It may reduce disastrous false negatives at the cost of an increase in false positives.
In the 1940s, the Soviet Union had hundreds of agents in the executive branch of the US government. KGB records opened in the last 20 years largely vindicate McCarthy (Edit: in that the threat was real; infiltration had happened; most of his targets were Soviet agents, Communists, or associated with Communists; and security risks had to be removed from positions in which they could do harm for the good of freedom-loving people everywhere).
It may reduce disastrous false negatives at the cost of an increase in false positives.
In the 1940s, the Soviet Union had hundreds of agents in the executive branch of the US government. KGB records opened in the last 20 years largely vindicate McCarthy (Edit: in that the threat was real; infiltration had happened; most of his targets were Soviet agents, Communists, or associated with Communists; and security risks had to be removed from positions in which they could do harm for the good of freedom-loving people everywhere).
I don't see that evidence of spies in government vindicates MCCarthy.
It might do if he had restricted himself to the threat of spies in the government, rather than instituting a campaign against communists and homosexuals throughout much of US society.
Spies in the executive does not justify Hollywood blacklists, the censoring of library books resulting in book burnings, attacks on the clergy, attacks on academics, the 10000 people forced into unemployment by the loyalty review boards or the repeated burglaries against lawyers who would represent those who were targeted.
It might do if he had restricted himself to the threat of spies in the government, rather than instituting a campaign against communists and homosexuals throughout much of US society.
Spies in the executive does not justify Hollywood blacklists, the censoring of library books resulting in book burnings, attacks on the clergy, attacks on academics, the 10000 people forced into unemployment by the loyalty review boards or the repeated burglaries against lawyers who would represent those who were targeted.
Yeah, it was just a vehicle for McCarthy. It could just as easily have been the scourge of crabgrass.
According to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy
> historian John Earl Haynes concluded that, of 159 people identified on lists used or referenced by McCarthy, evidence was substantial that nine had aided Soviet espionage efforts.
9/159. A 94% false positive rate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy
> historian John Earl Haynes concluded that, of 159 people identified on lists used or referenced by McCarthy, evidence was substantial that nine had aided Soviet espionage efforts.
9/159. A 94% false positive rate.
You know, the problem with lists like this is that, once you've made the list, any organization with a cover-your-ass mentality (eg, every organization) is going to treat it as sacrosanct. Regardless of how flimsy the list was to start with, no amount of evidence can ever clear someone well enough. The risk isn't "chance of being wrong * real-world consequences of being wrong", it's "chance of being wrong * (real-world consequences of being wrong + career consequences of 'letting the guy on the known-threat list slip through')". The career consequences have infinite weight, so the chance of being wrong can never be low enough.
Why don't you quote the next sentence? "He suggested that a majority of those on the lists could legitimately have been considered security risks, but that a substantial minority could not."
Because it's nearly tautological: everyone on that list got there for some reason. The fact that a majority of those reasons weren't entirely made up isn't an indication of their quality as predictors of espionage.
Since we now have access to the ground truth we can compute the actual false positive rate. The great-grandparent post suggests that such an examination would vindicate McCarthy, but I have trouble sympathizing with this view. A 94% false-positive rate (96% if you use McCarthy's original figure) is bad no matter how you slice it.
Since we now have access to the ground truth we can compute the actual false positive rate. The great-grandparent post suggests that such an examination would vindicate McCarthy, but I have trouble sympathizing with this view. A 94% false-positive rate (96% if you use McCarthy's original figure) is bad no matter how you slice it.
McCarthy identified several agents actively engaged in espionage. KGB records identify hundreds more that he missed.
McCarthy identified many more people in sensitive positions who were security risks, many with Communist associations. Even if those people were not actively engaged in espionage, they should not have held sensitive positions.
KGB/NKVD archives reveal they had hundreds of agents in the executive branch in the 1940s. McCarthy spurred the removal of Soviet moles, Communist sympathizers, and other security risks from sensitive positions. In this, he did the US a great service, as regrettable as false accusations are.
Edit: In response to your questions, it's as if you didn't read what I just wrote. Regarding the Soviet records of infiltration, several books have been written on these records and their revelations.
McCarthy identified many more people in sensitive positions who were security risks, many with Communist associations. Even if those people were not actively engaged in espionage, they should not have held sensitive positions.
KGB/NKVD archives reveal they had hundreds of agents in the executive branch in the 1940s. McCarthy spurred the removal of Soviet moles, Communist sympathizers, and other security risks from sensitive positions. In this, he did the US a great service, as regrettable as false accusations are.
Edit: In response to your questions, it's as if you didn't read what I just wrote. Regarding the Soviet records of infiltration, several books have been written on these records and their revelations.
I have zero sympathy for the view that people who disagree with current social/economic/espionage policy should be removed from office on that basis alone. On the contrary, such disagreement is central to how democracy works and those who would threaten it are the true threats to our society.
That said, we continue to disagree about the numbers, and I would like to know the resolution. Could you expand on your claim that "KGB/NKVD archives reveal they had hundreds of agents in the executive branch in the 1940s"? Did McCarthy have a very high false negative rate (thereby finding only 9 of the hundreds of spies)? Are you counting "security risks" as "agents"? What gives?
That said, we continue to disagree about the numbers, and I would like to know the resolution. Could you expand on your claim that "KGB/NKVD archives reveal they had hundreds of agents in the executive branch in the 1940s"? Did McCarthy have a very high false negative rate (thereby finding only 9 of the hundreds of spies)? Are you counting "security risks" as "agents"? What gives?
Communists, meaning people who were members of the Communist Party or identified as Communists and associated with other Communists, were more likely to have come into contact with Soviet agents and been persuaded to spy or subvert US aims. We are talking about security risks not security certainties. It's entirely reasonable to remove risky people from sensitive positions. Any organization that failed to do so would fail to achieve the objectives given to it through the democratic process; it would serve another master. This is entirely separate from the question of who should choose the objectives of the government.
Ironically, Communists wished to overthrow the US government and were anti-democratic.
Ironically, Communists wished to overthrow the US government and were anti-democratic.
What are the risks, what's the error rate, and what are the consequences?
To start, what defines a sensitive position?
For example, Pete Seeger was a member of the Communist party in the US. He's a singer. He was castigated for his association with Communists, subpoenaed to testify before the House Un-American Activities Committee, and found guilty of contempt of Congress before an appeals court overturned it.
Is singing a sensitive position? What about screenwriting or directing movies?
We know that "Israel's espionage activities in America are unrivaled and unseemly" (see http://www.newsweek.com/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757 ) . That makes Israeli citizens a risk, no? What about Israeli sympathizers in sensitive positions? At what point do we declare that any Americans with a pro-Israeli viewpoint are a security risk and should be barred from sensitive positions? (Including singing?)
You mentioned overthrowing the government. Should all people with such ideas be removed from any sensitive position? We know that various US citizens to this day 'demand the dissolution of the Federal government', as for example http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/adam-kokesh-and-pete-santil... , as just one example of people who call for a peaceful overthrow.
My answer to all of those is "no". Having a strongly held belief which happens to be aligned with a foreign power's stated goals does not immediately make one a security risk.
Consider that in South Africa during Apartheid, and after abandoning the Native Republic policy in 1948, the South African Communist Party was one of the few that called for the end of Apartheid and equality of the races. The Suppression of Communism Act in 1950 formally banned the party and all those who supported communists. In practice then, that power was used to prosecute anyone against apartheid, since after all their aims were aligned with the presumed aims of communism.
Mandela was a member of the SACP and served on its Central Committee. As he wrote, "There will always be those who say that the Communists were using us. But who is to say that we were not using them?"
To start, what defines a sensitive position?
For example, Pete Seeger was a member of the Communist party in the US. He's a singer. He was castigated for his association with Communists, subpoenaed to testify before the House Un-American Activities Committee, and found guilty of contempt of Congress before an appeals court overturned it.
Is singing a sensitive position? What about screenwriting or directing movies?
We know that "Israel's espionage activities in America are unrivaled and unseemly" (see http://www.newsweek.com/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757 ) . That makes Israeli citizens a risk, no? What about Israeli sympathizers in sensitive positions? At what point do we declare that any Americans with a pro-Israeli viewpoint are a security risk and should be barred from sensitive positions? (Including singing?)
You mentioned overthrowing the government. Should all people with such ideas be removed from any sensitive position? We know that various US citizens to this day 'demand the dissolution of the Federal government', as for example http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/adam-kokesh-and-pete-santil... , as just one example of people who call for a peaceful overthrow.
My answer to all of those is "no". Having a strongly held belief which happens to be aligned with a foreign power's stated goals does not immediately make one a security risk.
Consider that in South Africa during Apartheid, and after abandoning the Native Republic policy in 1948, the South African Communist Party was one of the few that called for the end of Apartheid and equality of the races. The Suppression of Communism Act in 1950 formally banned the party and all those who supported communists. In practice then, that power was used to prosecute anyone against apartheid, since after all their aims were aligned with the presumed aims of communism.
Mandela was a member of the SACP and served on its Central Committee. As he wrote, "There will always be those who say that the Communists were using us. But who is to say that we were not using them?"
>I have zero sympathy for the view that people who disagree with current social/economic/espionage policy should be removed from office on that basis alone.
Why? They'll just do a shitty job anyway. People rightfully get up in arms when Republicans want to see an opponent of the EPA appointed to the EPA, or department of education, because they know why it's being done, to undermine it. HUAC was set up to rout out Nazi sympathizers before it started going after communism, should they have been left alone?
Why? They'll just do a shitty job anyway. People rightfully get up in arms when Republicans want to see an opponent of the EPA appointed to the EPA, or department of education, because they know why it's being done, to undermine it. HUAC was set up to rout out Nazi sympathizers before it started going after communism, should they have been left alone?
I don't get why you haven't been downvoted to hell yet: removing people from their positions for the views they hold is _unamerican_.
As an entirely aside if he identified a few real spies and missed hundreds doesn't that suggest he was ineffective, to the point of actual harm?
As an entirely aside if he identified a few real spies and missed hundreds doesn't that suggest he was ineffective, to the point of actual harm?
Removing enemy agents from positions is not unAmerican.
Removing people with known security risks from sensitive positions is not unAmerican.
He missed hundreds of agents, identified several agents and many more security risks, and spurred heightened security awareness that was a very good thing at the time. Expecting him to know the identity of every Soviet agent before attempting to remove any security risks is unreasonable.
Removing people with known security risks from sensitive positions is not unAmerican.
He missed hundreds of agents, identified several agents and many more security risks, and spurred heightened security awareness that was a very good thing at the time. Expecting him to know the identity of every Soviet agent before attempting to remove any security risks is unreasonable.
You make it sound like we're talking about a few false positives and a few false negatives.
>94% false positive rate (9/159) >95% false negative rate ((200-9)/200)
If it's unreasonable to call this a shit screening process, what would you consider reasonable?!
In any case, it seems virtually certain that McCarthy's accusations were far more effective as political tools rather than as filters against soviet subversion, in accordance with the traditional narrative.
>94% false positive rate (9/159) >95% false negative rate ((200-9)/200)
If it's unreasonable to call this a shit screening process, what would you consider reasonable?!
In any case, it seems virtually certain that McCarthy's accusations were far more effective as political tools rather than as filters against soviet subversion, in accordance with the traditional narrative.
Just because some members of the American Communist party were working for the Soviets, does not mean that every member was. Guilt by association is generally not a crime under common law.
I don't know what 'unamerican' means, I know how it was used, but I don't think anyone really knows what it means. Therefore I'm bringing up common law. Whether something is unamerican or not is irrelevant. We're supposed to live in a nation of laws, not arbitrary standards.
I don't know what 'unamerican' means, I know how it was used, but I don't think anyone really knows what it means. Therefore I'm bringing up common law. Whether something is unamerican or not is irrelevant. We're supposed to live in a nation of laws, not arbitrary standards.
We're talking about security risks, not guilt.
We're talking about presumed security risks, where there is a model justifying its validity but where the validity has not been demonstrated.
American citizens of Japanese ancestry were labeled "security risks" during WWII and sent to internment camps.
Do you agree that they were risks and therefore should be removed from all sensitive positions? And if so, what defines "sensitive position"?
(We know, by the way, that there absolutely were spies for Japan in the US. http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/04/sorelle/poetry/wwii/... says that 10 were found, and none were Japanese. The only one I found by name was Velvalee Dickinson. Perhaps the risk factor was actually not having Japanese ancestry?)
If there was a risk, why the lack of serious sabotage, espionage, etc. on Hawaii, where 1/3rd of the population had Japanese ancestry and therefore economically infeasible to intern them? Was it only because the islands were under martial law, and if so, how does that make a difference?
Or do you agree with the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians that there was, in fact, little evidence of disloyalty? Do you agree with U.S. legislation saying that the "security risk" label was actually due to "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership"?
If the latter, how does one distinguish between a (supposed true) claim for being a security risk based on political party affiliation and a (demonstrably false) claim for being a security risk based on ancestry?
American citizens of Japanese ancestry were labeled "security risks" during WWII and sent to internment camps.
Do you agree that they were risks and therefore should be removed from all sensitive positions? And if so, what defines "sensitive position"?
(We know, by the way, that there absolutely were spies for Japan in the US. http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/04/sorelle/poetry/wwii/... says that 10 were found, and none were Japanese. The only one I found by name was Velvalee Dickinson. Perhaps the risk factor was actually not having Japanese ancestry?)
If there was a risk, why the lack of serious sabotage, espionage, etc. on Hawaii, where 1/3rd of the population had Japanese ancestry and therefore economically infeasible to intern them? Was it only because the islands were under martial law, and if so, how does that make a difference?
Or do you agree with the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians that there was, in fact, little evidence of disloyalty? Do you agree with U.S. legislation saying that the "security risk" label was actually due to "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership"?
If the latter, how does one distinguish between a (supposed true) claim for being a security risk based on political party affiliation and a (demonstrably false) claim for being a security risk based on ancestry?
We're talking about people in administrative positions, not people being put in internment camps.
A potential spy does (potentially) subvert democracy. But removing an elected official from office definitely subverts democracy. You need to be pretty darn certain of the former before the latter becomes the lesser of two evils. Assuming my numbers are correct, "security risk" is far too poor of a standard to decide in favor of removal from office.
On the other hand, it sure is a handy standard if your actual goal is to remove your opponents from office...
On the other hand, it sure is a handy standard if your actual goal is to remove your opponents from office...
What elected officials are you talking about?
I would qualify that to allow certain bona fide exceptions.
If a nuclear missile launch team has the position that nuclear weapons are unjustified and that pacifistic solutions are the only correct solution to national disagreements, then I think it's okay to remove them from their position, even if they've never acted on their views by not launching when the launch order came.
If a nuclear missile launch team has the position that nuclear weapons are unjustified and that pacifistic solutions are the only correct solution to national disagreements, then I think it's okay to remove them from their position, even if they've never acted on their views by not launching when the launch order came.
> removing people from their positions for the views they hold is _unamerican_.
If you're going to argue about a hiring preference being "unamerican" or not instead of its inherent morality, I don't know what game you're playing. Did you get your posting techniques from the Simple Sabotage Field Manual?
If you're going to argue about a hiring preference being "unamerican" or not instead of its inherent morality, I don't know what game you're playing. Did you get your posting techniques from the Simple Sabotage Field Manual?
McCarthy was a showman, not a serious investigator. In the long run, he did more harm to the cause he nominally worked for.
Edit: Someone is wrong on the Internet and that person is me. ;-) When I quoted the 3,370 number I missed the "(end-of-fiscal-year count, excluding Postal Service, in thousands)
[ChrisIsWrong] The number of employees in the executive branch in the 1940's peaked at 3,370. [1] So by "hundreds of agents in the executive branch" do you mean that say, 10% of the executive branch were communist agents? [/ChrisIsWrong]
My Dad remembers McCarthy and his famous speech but doesn't know that he was discredited or even what the term "McCartheism" means.
[1] http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/data-analysis-docum...
[ChrisIsWrong] The number of employees in the executive branch in the 1940's peaked at 3,370. [1] So by "hundreds of agents in the executive branch" do you mean that say, 10% of the executive branch were communist agents? [/ChrisIsWrong]
My Dad remembers McCarthy and his famous speech but doesn't know that he was discredited or even what the term "McCartheism" means.
[1] http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/data-analysis-docum...
That number doesn't pass the smell test. Today's Treasury Department alone employs more than 115,000 people[1].
The figures are "in thousands". The Executive Branch at the time had over 3.3 million employees.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_the...
The figures are "in thousands". The Executive Branch at the time had over 3.3 million employees.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_the...
According to your link, the Department of Justice, which included the FBI, had fewer than 20 employees.
Edit: Thanks for acknowledging the mistake. I made the same one here.
Edit: Thanks for acknowledging the mistake. I made the same one here.
In this, as in all classification schemes, there is a real risk of falling into a "dropping FN will raise FP" category error. The core issue may be be that your algorithm is bad, and you can find another with bother better FN and better FP.
Are you referring to the Venona intercepts? Those were from WWII, not the 1950s, weren't they?
His consulting contract to the AEC was expiring in December 1953, but as a political takedown he was officially accused instead of simply not renewing. Oppenheimer had the option to compromise and resign, but he declined writing Strauss: “Under the circumstances, this course of action would mean that I accept and concur in the view that I am not fit to serve this government, that I have now served for some twelve years. This I cannot do. If I were thus unworthy I could hardly have served our country as I have tried, or been the Director of our Institute in Princeton, or have spoken, as on more than one occasion I have found myself speaking, in the name our science and our country”.*
He was found to be absolutely loyal, he was not even accused of violating any security regulations. But was accused of not being sufficiently enthusiastic about a crash program to build a hydrogen bomb, and that this lack of enthusiasm was a sign of a character flaw.
This “trial” marked an end of extremely wide public respect for scientists. And a new era where technical and scientific achievements are to be harvested by military industrial complex, and used by right wing strategists. It put scientists in their place..
*American Prometheus - p484