Ask HN: Should I get U.S. citizenship?
31 comments
Absolutely yes - if you are a permanent resident and have held your green card for at least 5 years (the qualifying period) you should apply for citizenship. The reason is that a green card is not permanent; you lose it when you leave the country for a year or more. So if, for example, you got a consulting gig in Russia for a couple of years and then wanted to come back to the US, your previous green card would not be valid and you would have to start from scratch.
If you can afford it, there is really no reason not to, even if you didn't have the additional complications with unclear other citizenships.
The only people who should be careful about applying for US citizenship are those from countries (like Japan) who are barred from having dual citizenships; otherwise if you can afford it, it is frankly a no-brainer.
Plus, if you are a citizen you can vote. I don't know about you, but living and paying taxes in a country where I don't have the right to vote kinda drives me crazy.
I am not a lawyer, but look on the bright side, my opinion was free.
If you can afford it, there is really no reason not to, even if you didn't have the additional complications with unclear other citizenships.
The only people who should be careful about applying for US citizenship are those from countries (like Japan) who are barred from having dual citizenships; otherwise if you can afford it, it is frankly a no-brainer.
Plus, if you are a citizen you can vote. I don't know about you, but living and paying taxes in a country where I don't have the right to vote kinda drives me crazy.
I am not a lawyer, but look on the bright side, my opinion was free.
Is it really a no brainer? You have to pay US taxes even if you leave the country. But if you are sure you are going to live there for the rest of your life I guess that won't make any difference.
Greencard holders are also obligated to pay exit tax after several (8?) years of residency.
IMHO, this a big deal only if you have illiquid assets. If you don't have any the only problem is having to realize the unrealized gains - not the end of the world.
IMHO, this a big deal only if you have illiquid assets. If you don't have any the only problem is having to realize the unrealized gains - not the end of the world.
If you are a citizen you can apply for non-residency. I believe the rule is that if you are out of the country for >= 181 days of the calendar year, you may apply to be income-tax exempt on those portions earned outside the USA.
It's the "foreign earned income exclusion", and it's only the first $91k exempted from US tax (plus a housing allowance, with some restrictions). To get it, you need a "bona fide foreign residence" or 330 days/yr out of the US. I'm actually going to spend the last few months of 2009 on vacation, using the savings in taxes to pay for it, since I'll be out 9-10 months in 2009 just for work.
The first 91k is basically 18k in taxes at current rates. They unfortunately changed it from LAST 91k (i.e. the income at your highest marginal rate, easily 33% or 35%) in 2006, at the same time as making it inflation adjusted).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_earned_income_exclusion
The first 91k is basically 18k in taxes at current rates. They unfortunately changed it from LAST 91k (i.e. the income at your highest marginal rate, easily 33% or 35%) in 2006, at the same time as making it inflation adjusted).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_earned_income_exclusion
The U.S. also does not allow dual-citizenship. I have met many that violate this rule but that could catch up with them someday.
The US is fine with dual-citizenship, it just doesn't encourage it because it can make certain policy issues a bit more awkward.
Sources:
".U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship." [1]
"Dual nationality can also occur when a person is naturalized in a foreign state without intending to relinquish U.S. nationality and is thereafter found not to have lost U.S. citizenship: the individual consequently may possess dual nationality. While recognizing the existence of dual nationality and permitting Americans to have other nationalities, the U.S. Government also recognizes the problems which it may cause." [2]
[1]: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html
[2]: http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html
Sources:
".U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship." [1]
"Dual nationality can also occur when a person is naturalized in a foreign state without intending to relinquish U.S. nationality and is thereafter found not to have lost U.S. citizenship: the individual consequently may possess dual nationality. While recognizing the existence of dual nationality and permitting Americans to have other nationalities, the U.S. Government also recognizes the problems which it may cause." [2]
[1]: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html
[2]: http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html
Good reference. I have been with friends in years past for their U.S. citizenship swearing in. I recall they had to turn in any other passports they had (at least they were told they had to). I guess I'm still confused.
This doesn't sound right. My wife was just recently sworn in and was not asked for her previous passport, and one of my daughters just got her citizenship, and was not asked for her passport either.
That is patently false.
The US allows dual citizenship with any allied or non-hostile nations. US citizenship is only lost if the person expressly disavows US citizenship when or after becoming a citizen of another nation. (US and international law no longer recognize the concept of "nationless" citizenry.)
The US does not recognize dual citizenship with hostile nations. The last-acquired citizenship is deemed the person's current citizenship.
The consequence of dual citizenship is that you pay taxes, if applicable, to both countries as citizens. (Many countries have different tax rates for non-citizens.)
Edit: Follow-up to the above post -- The US treats its passports as superior to those of other nations, which is why you are urged to use your US passport when traveling in or out the US. You do not actually have to turn over your other passport. Israel, for example, requires citizens to use an Israeli passport for expedited re-entry.
The US allows dual citizenship with any allied or non-hostile nations. US citizenship is only lost if the person expressly disavows US citizenship when or after becoming a citizen of another nation. (US and international law no longer recognize the concept of "nationless" citizenry.)
The US does not recognize dual citizenship with hostile nations. The last-acquired citizenship is deemed the person's current citizenship.
The consequence of dual citizenship is that you pay taxes, if applicable, to both countries as citizens. (Many countries have different tax rates for non-citizens.)
Edit: Follow-up to the above post -- The US treats its passports as superior to those of other nations, which is why you are urged to use your US passport when traveling in or out the US. You do not actually have to turn over your other passport. Israel, for example, requires citizens to use an Israeli passport for expedited re-entry.
My situation is very similar, I'm on green card here as well. The only difference is that I actually have valid Russian passport, so can go back there whenever I want.
After careful consideration of my personal situation I have decided to pass on citizenship. At least for now. There are just too few benefits. I don't think I'll get deported, I don't care about voting (electoral college would make my vote in presidential elections a lot less relevant in my state), I don't want to do jury duty, I don't want to pay exit tax should I decide to leave the country.
When they decide to rip me off with taxes (and I already paid millions), I'll just say "thanks, but no thanks" and move to HK or Singapore. :)
After careful consideration of my personal situation I have decided to pass on citizenship. At least for now. There are just too few benefits. I don't think I'll get deported, I don't care about voting (electoral college would make my vote in presidential elections a lot less relevant in my state), I don't want to do jury duty, I don't want to pay exit tax should I decide to leave the country.
When they decide to rip me off with taxes (and I already paid millions), I'll just say "thanks, but no thanks" and move to HK or Singapore. :)
I think after you have green card, they will track down you for exit tax as citizen on tax.
One difference is if you marry a non U.S. woman. then you need to put her on waiting list for 5 years before she can come to U.S. because you are only a permanent resident. But since you have paid millions of taxes. I guess you are rich enough if this happens to do things in alternative way such as EB-5 for her.
One difference is if you marry a non U.S. woman. then you need to put her on waiting list for 5 years before she can come to U.S. because you are only a permanent resident. But since you have paid millions of taxes. I guess you are rich enough if this happens to do things in alternative way such as EB-5 for her.
I'm pretty sure that exit tax is for citizens only. They'll have a hard time tracking down non-citizens and no leverage, except for threatening to revoke the green card and/or restrict entry into the US.
The marriage thing is a very good point.
The marriage thing is a very good point.
for the jury duty thing, you can just respond to the little form citing that you don't speak english and they'll let you off the hook. That's what my dad does...granted his English is not the best in the world and its probably valid for him, but I don't see how that wouldn't work for someone else, especially if you are a new citizen with no prior record of going to jury duty.
One thing that you must keep in mind is that if you get sick of high US taxes (and they only seem to be going higher) and you want to move someplace like Hong Kong, you will still need to pay US taxes, and you will even be forced to continue to pay them for 10 years if you decide to give up your citizenship.
I am a naturalized U.S. citizen and I wouldn't even dream of "ditching" my identity for tax purposes and moving overseas. I am currently in Australia, I lived both in Singapore and Hong Kong, and I don't think I could ever call either of them "home" (Oz rocks, but only as friends ;-)
There is more to it than utility, and I know that "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel", but FUCK man, America is HOME.
You might not realize it now, but I dare you to travel overseas and try to unbecome a yank. It's hard. Everday, I miss my proud state of Virginia when I pay the Australian equivalent of $10USD for a pack of cigarettes; back home it was $4 for Marlies. Small things will get to you. My bank closed at 7PM and was open 7 days a week; I dare you to find such business ethic anywhere else on earth. And Oh, I could grab a case from any 7/11 or grocery store.
I just enjoy the fact that I can speak ill of any politician, critique the laws of the country and generally be resentful of "society" without anybody feeling offended. Everywhere else it's "Love it or leave it"; back home it's "tough luck". I like that sense of pesimistic resignation to fate and being "stuck" with that mess of a big fat country I call home.
Death to America! or at least the parts of it I haven't been to :-P
[Edit: Ok, maybe just "death to Jersey" .. specially Clifton and other areas just south of the "Bridge and the Tunnel" where my car was once levitated on four bricks. Pricks!]
There is more to it than utility, and I know that "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel", but FUCK man, America is HOME.
You might not realize it now, but I dare you to travel overseas and try to unbecome a yank. It's hard. Everday, I miss my proud state of Virginia when I pay the Australian equivalent of $10USD for a pack of cigarettes; back home it was $4 for Marlies. Small things will get to you. My bank closed at 7PM and was open 7 days a week; I dare you to find such business ethic anywhere else on earth. And Oh, I could grab a case from any 7/11 or grocery store.
I just enjoy the fact that I can speak ill of any politician, critique the laws of the country and generally be resentful of "society" without anybody feeling offended. Everywhere else it's "Love it or leave it"; back home it's "tough luck". I like that sense of pesimistic resignation to fate and being "stuck" with that mess of a big fat country I call home.
Death to America! or at least the parts of it I haven't been to :-P
[Edit: Ok, maybe just "death to Jersey" .. specially Clifton and other areas just south of the "Bridge and the Tunnel" where my car was once levitated on four bricks. Pricks!]
I am a US citizen as well and I agree that the thought of ditching my identity for tax purposes is very painful, but the American political system seems to become ever more broken. I've been living in Hong Kong for the past few months after nearly 10 years in New York City and my experience has been a real eye opener. I can't see any real difference in the quality of life here (this is an expat's experience, so take that with a grain of salt), but it is achieved at a significantly lower tax burden, like less than half. I have health insurance that doesn't break the bank, the mass transit system is clean and efficient, they have well-maintained public parks, etc. As someone who works hard and earns well, my freedom to criticize the government hasn't stopped me from being viewed as a piggy bank by elected officials who haven't learned the real lesson of the financial crisis, which is to live within your means. They're taking on yet another helping of the "borrow and spend" habit that the homeowners had to give up, and it seems to me that it's all going to end in tears at some point. Frankly I don't really want to be among the ones who has to pay for it down the road. The final freedom is the freedom to vote with your feet, which is what made the iron curtain such a horrible crime against human rights, and while I still have that freedom, they want me to leave my wallet at the door, unlike almost every other developed country.
However, you are an expat and thus subject to the whims of your host country without the recourse of a citizen to expect response to complaints (of course, that expectation varies widely from country to country and within a country). For example, Thailand occasionally tinkers with their visa rules and fees - as an expat you're at their mercy.
It is broken since a long tome
http://www.newstatesman.com/north-america/2009/07/pilger-oba...
and I disagree with de above: OZ rocks, not just as friends!
and I disagree with de above: OZ rocks, not just as friends!
"The final freedom is the freedom to vote with your feet"
Very well put. Or, one day, with your boat, or your starship ..
Very well put. Or, one day, with your boat, or your starship ..
That's the theory anyway. In practise a good accountant will reduce your US tax burden to practically zero.
And you'll pay him handsomely for the privilege.
He can also open a UBS account by himself, as anybody fortunate enough to live the American Dream. Experimentally proven.
Le Liechtenstein Paradis Fiscal DOC FRENCH PDTV XViD (Allemagne, 2008, 52mn) ZDF Réalisateur: Ulrich Stoll, Herbert Klar Auteur: Herbert Klar
Plus largement, l'enquête menée par les auteurs de ce documentaire, tourné en partie en caméra cachée, montre comment nombre d'Allemands fortunés ont su mettre à profit le manque de transparence des établissements bancaires installés dans cette petite principauté nichée entre la Suisse et l'Autriche.
Le Liechtenstein Paradis Fiscal DOC FRENCH PDTV XViD (Allemagne, 2008, 52mn) ZDF Réalisateur: Ulrich Stoll, Herbert Klar Auteur: Herbert Klar
Plus largement, l'enquête menée par les auteurs de ce documentaire, tourné en partie en caméra cachée, montre comment nombre d'Allemands fortunés ont su mettre à profit le manque de transparence des établissements bancaires installés dans cette petite principauté nichée entre la Suisse et l'Autriche.
With issues of this magnitude, talk to an immigration lawyer.
Or at least to an immigrant-rights center. There's sure to be one in any major U.S.
I remember in grad school I went to testify for my advisor (Korean-born), and they wanted to know that he really was married to his wife, and related nonsense (she also immigrated from Korea and they'd been married for 10 years).
In any case, there's obviously a lot of power to U.S. citizenship: not the least being the ability not to be deported to a homeland that is subject to vagaries of the latest dictatorial "democratic" government (reference to Russia, not Ukraine).
Best of luck.
I remember in grad school I went to testify for my advisor (Korean-born), and they wanted to know that he really was married to his wife, and related nonsense (she also immigrated from Korea and they'd been married for 10 years).
In any case, there's obviously a lot of power to U.S. citizenship: not the least being the ability not to be deported to a homeland that is subject to vagaries of the latest dictatorial "democratic" government (reference to Russia, not Ukraine).
Best of luck.
You first need to be naturalized and then you can apply for a U.S. passport, but I am sure you knew that.
At the very least, you owe it to yourself to have a passport. In the meantime, you should to be asking one from the Russians as you ought to be or are still a citizen of that country.
At the very least, you owe it to yourself to have a passport. In the meantime, you should to be asking one from the Russians as you ought to be or are still a citizen of that country.
I was in a same boat as you are, and I think it comes down to being whether you feel grateful to this country or not.
In my experience, living in former Soviet Union was hell. It was, still is, and always will be a shithole, with about 95% of population idiot racist alcoholics.
So for me, when faced with an opportunity to get an American passport, I was more than happy to do that. I feel that voting, paying taxes and doing jury duty is the least I can do to give back to the greatest country in the world, that gave me an opportunity to make the life for me and my family permanently better.
Of course, that's my opinion and you should do whatever you feel like.
In my experience, living in former Soviet Union was hell. It was, still is, and always will be a shithole, with about 95% of population idiot racist alcoholics.
So for me, when faced with an opportunity to get an American passport, I was more than happy to do that. I feel that voting, paying taxes and doing jury duty is the least I can do to give back to the greatest country in the world, that gave me an opportunity to make the life for me and my family permanently better.
Of course, that's my opinion and you should do whatever you feel like.
Yes, but apply from Canada, just in case ;-)
My wife and I joke that we collect passports and citizenships. So far we have UK, FR and US.
I don't have US citizenship, as my wife has that one (I have a Green Card). But if I wasn't married to a citizen, and had no passport at all, I would probably become a citizen.
It sounds like you must still be a Russian citizen too - ask them for a passport.
I don't have US citizenship, as my wife has that one (I have a Green Card). But if I wasn't married to a citizen, and had no passport at all, I would probably become a citizen.
It sounds like you must still be a Russian citizen too - ask them for a passport.
There is some ambiguity in your question:
Are you scared of 'being deported for something that you've done' or are you scared of being deported for 'something unspecified at some point in the future' ? There is a huge difference between the two.
If the former then in some cases being deported is better than having to stay...
Are you scared of 'being deported for something that you've done' or are you scared of being deported for 'something unspecified at some point in the future' ? There is a huge difference between the two.
If the former then in some cases being deported is better than having to stay...
Being an "immigrant" makes the passport issue a bit more important - but don't forget something like 60% of US citizens don't have one either (IIRC).
I'm a permanent resident and I have green card. I was born in Russia but lived my whole life in Ukraine. My parents had Ukrainian passport but no more as they have naturalized. I was over 18 so I didn't naturalize with them. So, I don't really have any passport of any country.
Should I start applying for U.S. passport? I'm sort of scared of being deported for something, is that a valid reason for getting a passort?