Ask HN: I just dropped out of college, should I do a coding bootcamp?
19 comments
In terms of paying for these bootcamps, I don't think you are the target market. You have CS exposure and you are already getting fluent with Python and Django. The target market for these bootcamps is people with little development experience. You are better off going through the many online resources. Your best bet is to target companies that do Python and/or Django development. I would focus on getting even better with these technologies.
I would also recommend that you finish your program. When we don't have a concrete plan for something else, the path we are on currently is usually still the best. In your case, it doesn't look like you have a startup that you are building and has investors, traction, etc. So, you didn't leave because there was much greater return on value on your time doing something else.
Now, I'm sure the material in the program is lower on the scale of reasons you are leaving and you have other reasons that are valid for you. But, it would be worth re-evaluating. It's hard sometimes to finish these things but it shows that you have determination and persistence. You can continue to do your side learning and improving your skills while still in school. Having a degree is still relevant. I know that here it sometimes seems like everybody gets work regardless of their education but that's not the norm.
I would also recommend that you finish your program. When we don't have a concrete plan for something else, the path we are on currently is usually still the best. In your case, it doesn't look like you have a startup that you are building and has investors, traction, etc. So, you didn't leave because there was much greater return on value on your time doing something else.
Now, I'm sure the material in the program is lower on the scale of reasons you are leaving and you have other reasons that are valid for you. But, it would be worth re-evaluating. It's hard sometimes to finish these things but it shows that you have determination and persistence. You can continue to do your side learning and improving your skills while still in school. Having a degree is still relevant. I know that here it sometimes seems like everybody gets work regardless of their education but that's not the norm.
Tools and language change quickly. Engineering basics and methodologies remain.
You might not like my advice, but reconsider your decision and show that you have the discipline and endurance to finish things, even or especially if they don't appeal to you all the way.
I hear what you're saying, but I feel the issue is that I'm not really learning the engineering basics or methodologies in my CS program. Basically, the program is geared to churn out mediocre Java developers, and it does a pretty good job of that.
It's incredibly frustrating to work on abstract coding projects only to have them reviewed by the TA and then thrown away. I'd much prefer to be working on real world stuff with impact, where I could learn by doing. And when I consider the amount of time in classes, it just seems incredibly inefficient compared to what I could be doing on my own or with the help of a bootcamp.
It's incredibly frustrating to work on abstract coding projects only to have them reviewed by the TA and then thrown away. I'd much prefer to be working on real world stuff with impact, where I could learn by doing. And when I consider the amount of time in classes, it just seems incredibly inefficient compared to what I could be doing on my own or with the help of a bootcamp.
I dropped out of college as well. I was near my senior year and only did so because I was better off doing web freelancing (as in I liked earning money and doing sales over my last year of school and didn't want to drop what I was doing).
I didn't do it just "because". I seriously wouldn't recommend dropping out despite me doing it myself.
College helps you with reasoning that you wouldn't otherwise have. I'm using a lot of my formal CS skills now more than I ever have ( I mainly work in the deeper end of things as far as engineering goes vs more traditional web dev/ruby on rails or what have you) . It's a good skillset to have regardless of what you do though.
College teaches you how to learn and if you're lucky the fundamentals. It's not there to churn out engineers despite lots of colleges saying that they do. You learn a lot on the job.
You can be self taught and do relatively well in CS, but be open to criticism and improvement.
At the time I did it I thought I was hot stuff being a freelancer. You learn very quickly that there's a lot of people smarter than you and that there's always something to learn.
I'm going to just warn you to tread lightly and always be open to learning from whoever you can.
I didn't do it just "because". I seriously wouldn't recommend dropping out despite me doing it myself.
College helps you with reasoning that you wouldn't otherwise have. I'm using a lot of my formal CS skills now more than I ever have ( I mainly work in the deeper end of things as far as engineering goes vs more traditional web dev/ruby on rails or what have you) . It's a good skillset to have regardless of what you do though.
College teaches you how to learn and if you're lucky the fundamentals. It's not there to churn out engineers despite lots of colleges saying that they do. You learn a lot on the job.
You can be self taught and do relatively well in CS, but be open to criticism and improvement.
At the time I did it I thought I was hot stuff being a freelancer. You learn very quickly that there's a lot of people smarter than you and that there's always something to learn.
I'm going to just warn you to tread lightly and always be open to learning from whoever you can.
You misunderstand the world. The world largely doesn't care about skill or talent. It cares about credentials.
You've also thrown away your chance at meeting cofounders, because now your social circles are going to consist of workers who are largely not willing to give up their salaried jobs to take a chance, or they're in so much debt that they won't be able to even if they want to.
If you wanted to apply to YC with a cofounder, then they'll understand "we met in college." They won't understand "we worked together for 3 months at a random job." Relationships forged in college are much stronger than relationships found at work, so it's inherently risky to bet that you and your coworker won't get into a founder squabble and tank the company unless you've known eachother for years.
Good luck to you.
You've also thrown away your chance at meeting cofounders, because now your social circles are going to consist of workers who are largely not willing to give up their salaried jobs to take a chance, or they're in so much debt that they won't be able to even if they want to.
If you wanted to apply to YC with a cofounder, then they'll understand "we met in college." They won't understand "we worked together for 3 months at a random job." Relationships forged in college are much stronger than relationships found at work, so it's inherently risky to bet that you and your coworker won't get into a founder squabble and tank the company unless you've known eachother for years.
Good luck to you.
Well yes, YC likes the "we met in college" and I see your point but it doesn't mean it's flawless. Stronger relationships? Yes, the only way? No. There is always a risk when it comes to startups. Just accepting that scenario only is stupid and misses a lot of potential out there.
If you believe that only a certain pattern can truly change the world you are mistaken. In fact, that is the crucial mistake every incubator is doing. True innovation almost always comes from unexpected places.
If you believe that only a certain pattern can truly change the world you are mistaken. In fact, that is the crucial mistake every incubator is doing. True innovation almost always comes from unexpected places.
This is just conjecture. It's a pretty big claim to make: that YC prefers people who met in college over people who worked together. From my experience working at a YC company and meeting the people in the network, I haven't discerned a disproportionate number of people who met in college vs. work that can't be simply explained by age.
while the job of your college may be to churn out mediocre Java developers for big corporations, the job of bootcamps is to churn out mediocre Ruby developers for startups. Same thing. Good colleges teach you theory, which is much more important than the vocational aspects.
If you're not learning the engineering basics or methodologies in your CS program, then you need a better college, not a coding bootcamp.
If you're not learning the engineering basics or methodologies in your CS program, then you need a better college, not a coding bootcamp.
Well what he said still stands: "ou have the discipline and endurance to finish things, even or especially if they don't appeal to you all the way."
Also, please eat more veggies.
The only time I think people should drop out of college is if they're building a company that's becoming crazy successful and making a boatload of money to the point that running that business makes more sense then college.
And you believe the billionaires who dropped out of college were 100% they would become rich in the future?
When it comes to startups there are no guarantees. Risk is high almost always, with some exceptions.
When it comes to startups there are no guarantees. Risk is high almost always, with some exceptions.
One data point: Mark Zuckerberg did not drop out of Harvard when he left to do Facebook. He took a leave of absence and he did not permanently drop out until November 2005, by which time Facebook was well on its way to success, with a 100MM valuation and a position as the 10th most trafficked website.
So at least for him, he was probably pretty sure of his success (a cushy acquisition as the very least).
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2005/11/1/zuckerberg-to-le...
So at least for him, he was probably pretty sure of his success (a cushy acquisition as the very least).
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2005/11/1/zuckerberg-to-le...
Although true that they couldn't have been sure, they were better off than 99% of dropouts. Zuckerberg was just taking a leave of absence and planned on returning. Before entering Harvard, he had already been noted on Slashdot and in PC Magazine. Gates entered with a nearly perfect SAT course and took the legendary Math 55 course. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Math_55)
In other words, they were already exceptional before dropping out. That key point gets lost a lot of times. I think the exception is probably Jobs and WoZ.
In other words, they were already exceptional before dropping out. That key point gets lost a lot of times. I think the exception is probably Jobs and WoZ.
> Risk is high almost always, with some exceptions.
The exception is taking on high risk with your startup.
I can imagine a pretty low risk scenario where you finish school, and start working in a relevant field programming. As you're making money and learning valuable skills you can spend your free time building your business. Unlimited runway and learning from your day job would increase your probability of being successful massively.
The billionaires and facebooks of the world are bad data points to model your future success by.
The exception is taking on high risk with your startup.
I can imagine a pretty low risk scenario where you finish school, and start working in a relevant field programming. As you're making money and learning valuable skills you can spend your free time building your business. Unlimited runway and learning from your day job would increase your probability of being successful massively.
The billionaires and facebooks of the world are bad data points to model your future success by.
"my CS program was woefully inadequate--the standard Java/C++ stuff"
That is the foundation for everything else. You will write much better Python if you are competent with C/C++. The truth is that the major languages are very similar. Yes one manages memory, one does not. One supports the ++ operator, one does not. And so on, but at a fundamental level they are essentially the same. The reason why C/C++ and Java are taught is because these languages are good for teaching the fundamentals: how memory works, data structures, functional vs object-oriented, etc.
Like others have recommended, an internship is a great way to get real-world experience. This is exactly what I did, and it helped me immensely. In particular, I worked for Delphi-Delco Electronics who make electronic automotive parts. My job was to automate testing of the automobile's main computer. Due to safety and regulations, testing was very rigorous so I had to learn how to be rigorous. That skill has helped me immensely throughout my career.
BUT that internship was no replacement for my degree. Without the degree I would be good at testing, but it would be quite hard for me to build an efficient web server because I wouldn't really understand how the CPU, RAM, etc work. While it is possible to learn all the fundamentals on your own, it requires immense discipline which most of us (myself included) do not possess.
That is my two cents. I wish you the best whatever you decide!
That is the foundation for everything else. You will write much better Python if you are competent with C/C++. The truth is that the major languages are very similar. Yes one manages memory, one does not. One supports the ++ operator, one does not. And so on, but at a fundamental level they are essentially the same. The reason why C/C++ and Java are taught is because these languages are good for teaching the fundamentals: how memory works, data structures, functional vs object-oriented, etc.
Like others have recommended, an internship is a great way to get real-world experience. This is exactly what I did, and it helped me immensely. In particular, I worked for Delphi-Delco Electronics who make electronic automotive parts. My job was to automate testing of the automobile's main computer. Due to safety and regulations, testing was very rigorous so I had to learn how to be rigorous. That skill has helped me immensely throughout my career.
BUT that internship was no replacement for my degree. Without the degree I would be good at testing, but it would be quite hard for me to build an efficient web server because I wouldn't really understand how the CPU, RAM, etc work. While it is possible to learn all the fundamentals on your own, it requires immense discipline which most of us (myself included) do not possess.
That is my two cents. I wish you the best whatever you decide!
Why don't you try getting an internship? Don't mention to companies that you've dropped out, just say you're taking a break to focus on personal development or something. After the internship, you should be able to get a job. I don't recommend doing a bootcamp if it will significantly deplete your cash. If you have around 6 months of expenses saved up + the fees for the course, then go for it! App Academy does not have an up-front charge as well, so it sounds perfect for your situation.
That's a really good idea. I'll look into that, thanks.
Starting a startup is not just a matter of technical skills and getting hired as a coder might be difficult if you dropped out of college.
A few ideas, straight out of my mind (please don't flame): - You should start a blog to document your journey anyway. Maybe you'll write a book about the whole experience later. - Build a website for college dropouts meetups? Maybe you can build something that's bigger than you. - Learn something, and become an expert at it. Learn Git/GitHub then write about it. Start a "become a Git hero in 6 weeks" blog? - teach yourself a niche technology, rather than Ruby on Rails: socket.io mastery on node.js maybe? or mongodb admin? or nginx admin?
Don't spread yourself too thin: you can't teach yourself everything at once. Get a Wordpress.com blog instead of hosting one... except if you want to learn it and then teach how to host your own Wordpress :)
Teach yourself something thoroughly, a skill that's rare enough (if you're THE guy who wrote a book on sails.js, who cares you dropped out of college?). D3.js could be another option.
HN is definitely the right place to target the perfect technological niche. I've only suggested a few that I've looked into myself.
Remember, you don't have much to lose yet. But DO something, learn something. You can be bold, but you must ship.
A few ideas, straight out of my mind (please don't flame): - You should start a blog to document your journey anyway. Maybe you'll write a book about the whole experience later. - Build a website for college dropouts meetups? Maybe you can build something that's bigger than you. - Learn something, and become an expert at it. Learn Git/GitHub then write about it. Start a "become a Git hero in 6 weeks" blog? - teach yourself a niche technology, rather than Ruby on Rails: socket.io mastery on node.js maybe? or mongodb admin? or nginx admin?
Don't spread yourself too thin: you can't teach yourself everything at once. Get a Wordpress.com blog instead of hosting one... except if you want to learn it and then teach how to host your own Wordpress :)
Teach yourself something thoroughly, a skill that's rare enough (if you're THE guy who wrote a book on sails.js, who cares you dropped out of college?). D3.js could be another option.
HN is definitely the right place to target the perfect technological niche. I've only suggested a few that I've looked into myself.
Remember, you don't have much to lose yet. But DO something, learn something. You can be bold, but you must ship.
Write a blog howto setup a wordpress website. That's something new.
Where I'm from a college degree doesn't mean you are good in something. But show you are someone who can follow through on something instead of being a quitter.
Off course if there is something else you could show that you can reach a significant goal that needed some persistence please pursue it.
Where I'm from a college degree doesn't mean you are good in something. But show you are someone who can follow through on something instead of being a quitter.
Off course if there is something else you could show that you can reach a significant goal that needed some persistence please pursue it.
"blog howto setup a wordpress website. That's something new"
Irony I guess :) Hosting a wordpress site (on a VPS for instance) would be more interesting, somewhat less common. I suggested hosting, not setup :) It requires comparing VPS offers, choosing a distro, securing the server (iptables/ssh), setup for MySql & Apache, installation of Wordpress, setup of a cache (with memcached?), backup strategy... It could be much more than just a blog post, and I know many professionals who are stuck with shared web hosting and who would love some help with a VPS for their hosting needs.
Irony I guess :) Hosting a wordpress site (on a VPS for instance) would be more interesting, somewhat less common. I suggested hosting, not setup :) It requires comparing VPS offers, choosing a distro, securing the server (iptables/ssh), setup for MySql & Apache, installation of Wordpress, setup of a cache (with memcached?), backup strategy... It could be much more than just a blog post, and I know many professionals who are stuck with shared web hosting and who would love some help with a VPS for their hosting needs.
I recommend freelancing.
I am currently taking a year off from college and am on the path to leaving entirely because I started freelancing a few months before making the decision to take a hiatus.
In school, I was not learning enough in a way and speed that matched my needs or mindset. I like to dive into topics and immerse myself in them quickly, while building cool things - I also like to make a living while doing so. A few months before I made the decision to take time off, I tried freelancing and gave myself a goal - if I could consistently make $X/month, then I would take a year off and work full time on freelancing to explore my options. Although this sentence could be an entire book, the short story is that I hit that goal and even started writing a book & building an audience^1.
Anyway, I decided to take the 1-year-long leave and start freelancing/writing full time. I quickly learned two things: The first is that I love to learn. The second is that learning from quality sources can be free or extremely cheap. Since college, the only direct payment I make for my education is $9/month to TeamTreehouse. Through things like TeamTreehouse, building clients' and personal projects, I've taken my skill level of creating iOS apps from beginner to advanced, which helped me increase freelancing income and gave me the knowledge to write a book.
In short, freelancing will allow you to learn more about a technology you're interested in, learn about building a business, make some kind of income, and hopefully connect you with some cool people and opportunities.
^1: I wrote a whole post about how I got into freelancing and writing a book on my website, but the main point is that you should start by building a small portfolio of projects and target businesses (especially local) that have money to spend. Freelancing/consulting is a science, and you can start making a decent amount of money relatively quickly if done right.
I am currently taking a year off from college and am on the path to leaving entirely because I started freelancing a few months before making the decision to take a hiatus.
In school, I was not learning enough in a way and speed that matched my needs or mindset. I like to dive into topics and immerse myself in them quickly, while building cool things - I also like to make a living while doing so. A few months before I made the decision to take time off, I tried freelancing and gave myself a goal - if I could consistently make $X/month, then I would take a year off and work full time on freelancing to explore my options. Although this sentence could be an entire book, the short story is that I hit that goal and even started writing a book & building an audience^1.
Anyway, I decided to take the 1-year-long leave and start freelancing/writing full time. I quickly learned two things: The first is that I love to learn. The second is that learning from quality sources can be free or extremely cheap. Since college, the only direct payment I make for my education is $9/month to TeamTreehouse. Through things like TeamTreehouse, building clients' and personal projects, I've taken my skill level of creating iOS apps from beginner to advanced, which helped me increase freelancing income and gave me the knowledge to write a book.
In short, freelancing will allow you to learn more about a technology you're interested in, learn about building a business, make some kind of income, and hopefully connect you with some cool people and opportunities.
^1: I wrote a whole post about how I got into freelancing and writing a book on my website, but the main point is that you should start by building a small portfolio of projects and target businesses (especially local) that have money to spend. Freelancing/consulting is a science, and you can start making a decent amount of money relatively quickly if done right.
If you only have enough money for one of these programs I suggest you save it and use free or cheap resources to learn the same skills. Build things that stretch your current abilities, bit by bit.
You need experience, keep launching things so that you get a feel for real world development and the problems that come up outside of programming tutorials.
Look at some available programming jobs and read up on the specifics that they are looking for (I've seen API integrations mentioned a lot, etc), then learn that stuff.
If you are going to program for web then I suggest learning to love JavaScript and the DOM as soon as possible.
[I dropped out of UCF (Comp Sci) in 2007 because the company I co-owned was succeeding so much that I could no longer pass classes and keep up with the business]
You need experience, keep launching things so that you get a feel for real world development and the problems that come up outside of programming tutorials.
Look at some available programming jobs and read up on the specifics that they are looking for (I've seen API integrations mentioned a lot, etc), then learn that stuff.
If you are going to program for web then I suggest learning to love JavaScript and the DOM as soon as possible.
[I dropped out of UCF (Comp Sci) in 2007 because the company I co-owned was succeeding so much that I could no longer pass classes and keep up with the business]
To add to others' advice, I'm going to recommend a subscription to Safari Books Online. (no affiliation) I consider it to be a great platform for reading technical books at an affordable price. (access to latest editions, etc.)
The 'Head First' book series includes books for Python and Django as well as many other programming languages. You may also find that a good design patterns book will be valuable to your CS career.
I'm gonna assume you are aware of such online learning platforms as Codecademy, Khan Academy, Udacity, etc. These can be good starting points depending on your level of proficiency with basic syntax.
Beyond these recommendations, I'd say study open source code and code libraries.
The 'Head First' book series includes books for Python and Django as well as many other programming languages. You may also find that a good design patterns book will be valuable to your CS career.
I'm gonna assume you are aware of such online learning platforms as Codecademy, Khan Academy, Udacity, etc. These can be good starting points depending on your level of proficiency with basic syntax.
Beyond these recommendations, I'd say study open source code and code libraries.
In lieu of a finished degree you'll need a track record of completed and shipped projects. Make that the focus of your Github, community and other involvements, whether you code, or not.
1. Java and C++ are quite foundational, I think. I don't think it is a problem at all that you don't learn version control in school. Version control is quite simple conceptually and is a simple matter of memorizing the API/commands.
2. I'm familiar with the programs that you mentioned and the general hiring climate in SV/SF. Email me (listed in my profile) for a deeper discussion on your options.
2. I'm familiar with the programs that you mentioned and the general hiring climate in SV/SF. Email me (listed in my profile) for a deeper discussion on your options.
I think you are dissatisfied with the program you were in, which is understandable. My sincere advice would be to transfer to another college that has a CS program you're interested in, on the west coast if you're so inclined. do your research and find a few colleges that match your criteria. Good luck!
I would say yes, but choose the bootcamp carefully.
What were your grades in the CS classes you took?
Where are you located?
Northeast, but I'd like to move to the west coast when possible.
I want to work for a startup and eventually start my own (or start my own as soon as possible), because the corporate life doesn't appeal to me. The problem is that my CS program was woefully inadequate--the standard Java/C++ stuff with little exposure to many of the real world tools and practices (we never even learned how to use version control!).
I've been teaching myself Python and Django for the last few weeks, but I'm seriously considering one of the coding bootcamps like Hack Reactor/Dev Bootcamp/App Academy. I think they could really give me a good jump in the direction I want to go. The only downside is that attending one would basically eat up all the money I've saved up. Does anyone have any advice? Are these bootcamps worth it? I feel like at this point I'm not at the stage where I'm hirable to a startup or have the technical skills to start my own, and I'm hoping the bootcamps can get me to that baseline.