Ask HN: I have yet to do the one thing I wish before I die
20 comments
Unless you have other responsibilities that you haven't mentioned, like, say, a wife and children, there's no reason you shouldn't do exactly what you want to do with your life.
Money, beyond subsistence, isn't really correlated with increased happiness, as numerous studies have shown. Just make sure you always have a reasonable level of health insurance coverage. Otherwise, I can't think of any good reason not to do what you want.
At the very least, if you find you really don't enjoy it and that it isn't worth giving up two or three or four more years of your life to schooling, you'll put that nagging question of "should I..." to rest, and it'll only cost you a few grand and one semester. I find that having those kinds of questions nagging at my mind is far more detrimental to my emotional well-being than the actual outcomes.
Money, beyond subsistence, isn't really correlated with increased happiness, as numerous studies have shown. Just make sure you always have a reasonable level of health insurance coverage. Otherwise, I can't think of any good reason not to do what you want.
At the very least, if you find you really don't enjoy it and that it isn't worth giving up two or three or four more years of your life to schooling, you'll put that nagging question of "should I..." to rest, and it'll only cost you a few grand and one semester. I find that having those kinds of questions nagging at my mind is far more detrimental to my emotional well-being than the actual outcomes.
I agree. One other thing to consider is retirement, though.
Agreed on that one, as well. At 41, I would hope he already has a pretty good bit of retirement savings in place. I'm in my early 30s and I, unfortunately, still haven't properly accounted for my retirement (though these days I'm feeling pretty comfortable with that fact, as my company is actually making real money for the first time). Anyway, I don't look forward to not working and I have no plans to ever "retire", but one should definitely be prepared for faculties to decline and value in the market to decline, because, barring miraculous improvements in health care and aging prevention, it happens to all of us eventually, no matter how well we take care of ourselves.
Test the waters with MIT OCW (http://ocw.mit.edu) and Academic Earth (http://academicearth.org) for lots of lectures & problem sets, and then make the jump if you feel that'll make you happy.
You really ought to closely examine your own motives for wanting a math degree. Having said that we usually end up regretting the things we did not do more than the things we actually did.. go for it, and if you don't like it, you can always find another job.
short version : If you do it full-time, don't sign up for an undergrad program to get a diploma. Get good advice (from the department) for the courses that you want to take and go for those. Don't be a fool signing up for Measure Theory before you're comfortable with calculus, though.
long version :
The best reason I can think of NOT to do it is that you'll be doing a few interesting courses compared to the interesting ones.
I did a bachelor's degree in math and a master's degree right after (Number Theory, yay !). In all the undergrad years, the most interesting courses were the introductory courses to "Real Analysis" and "Group/Ring Theory". "Complex Analysis" was pretty awesome too, but not as eye-opening as the two previous ones.
The program had a lot of padding. I had to take introductory courses to computer science. The data structure class was also an eye-opening experience, but the 5 other mandatory CS courses were boring.
After doing all the math stuff, I want to study artificial intelligence so I went to some other place as a non-classified student. I studied full-time there, took 5 courses each term, but got no diploma for that year. What happened after that is not relevant to the story. The point is, I took a lot of very interesting courses because I wasn't limited by what some committee decided should be the school curriculum for an undergrad degree in math. If you don't need the diploma, you don't have to follow the department rules. You can always register for specific courses and take those. I had a 55 year old marine officer registered in my Real Analysis class. He was a pretty fun guy, but he had some problems following the material. He was doing a better job than most undergrads, though.
An about online lessons, people underestimate the value that you're getting by being able to dialog with the professor during class. It's not just about being motivated by being forced to do the exercises, it's about being able to ask your algebra prof "why on Earth would I want to diagonalize a matrix !?" and getting a good answer to that.
There are certain key insights to be had while learning math and it's very helpful to be able to check with a prof who knows the material well. Some of the theory in mathematics in presented backwards. If you have hindsight, you know what they're trying to achieve and you can see why it makes sense to start where the book starts. If don't know the destination, it's harder to follow the proof when they don't seem to be going in any direction.
long version :
The best reason I can think of NOT to do it is that you'll be doing a few interesting courses compared to the interesting ones.
I did a bachelor's degree in math and a master's degree right after (Number Theory, yay !). In all the undergrad years, the most interesting courses were the introductory courses to "Real Analysis" and "Group/Ring Theory". "Complex Analysis" was pretty awesome too, but not as eye-opening as the two previous ones.
The program had a lot of padding. I had to take introductory courses to computer science. The data structure class was also an eye-opening experience, but the 5 other mandatory CS courses were boring.
After doing all the math stuff, I want to study artificial intelligence so I went to some other place as a non-classified student. I studied full-time there, took 5 courses each term, but got no diploma for that year. What happened after that is not relevant to the story. The point is, I took a lot of very interesting courses because I wasn't limited by what some committee decided should be the school curriculum for an undergrad degree in math. If you don't need the diploma, you don't have to follow the department rules. You can always register for specific courses and take those. I had a 55 year old marine officer registered in my Real Analysis class. He was a pretty fun guy, but he had some problems following the material. He was doing a better job than most undergrads, though.
An about online lessons, people underestimate the value that you're getting by being able to dialog with the professor during class. It's not just about being motivated by being forced to do the exercises, it's about being able to ask your algebra prof "why on Earth would I want to diagonalize a matrix !?" and getting a good answer to that.
There are certain key insights to be had while learning math and it's very helpful to be able to check with a prof who knows the material well. Some of the theory in mathematics in presented backwards. If you have hindsight, you know what they're trying to achieve and you can see why it makes sense to start where the book starts. If don't know the destination, it's harder to follow the proof when they don't seem to be going in any direction.
Thank you for your story and advice.
I agree about online. I tried it but I know it will be better if I have direct contact with a teacher in a classroom.
I agree about online. I tried it but I know it will be better if I have direct contact with a teacher in a classroom.
Depends on the uni/college and the tutors/teachers. Often the class sizes are too big for teachers to spend any significant time on learning issues (as compared to specific question issues).
So you want:
1) to study math 2) a degree in math
I understand #1. Why #2?
1) to study math 2) a degree in math
I understand #1. Why #2?
Maybe the degree is like the "trophy", but I have to agree with johnnybgoode here, if it's truly about the subject, learn it, involve yourself in it, and succeed on your own terms.
That being said, I can understand how at University you will have other great minds to throw ideas around with, and that can be truly invaluable.
That being said, I can understand how at University you will have other great minds to throw ideas around with, and that can be truly invaluable.
> That being said, I can understand how at University you will have other great minds to throw ideas around with, and that can be truly invaluable.
I agree. I want to add, though, that even this can often be done without bothering with the official program and degree requirements.
I agree. I want to add, though, that even this can often be done without bothering with the official program and degree requirements.
While you are right in theory, I think it is just easier to learn in the context of a university. It pains me to admit it, but while I still like maths, I haven't finished reading many maths books since I finished my degree (though I read parts of books). I needed exams coming up to really grind through the books. I wish it weren't so (I still have books I hope to read eventually...)
It's a SMART goal? Studying maths is a lifelong commitment, "getting a degree in maths before I die" is achievable. :)
One thing to keep in mind if you want to get a degree in math is you might want to get through the more introductory level courses at a community college. I've done this, and in my case anyway, there hasn't been a noticeable difference, and introductory mathematics being fairly old and standard, these things transfer (but make sure you verify this!)
You could save a bundle of money this way and then go to the 4 year school with only 2 years left.
You could save a bundle of money this way and then go to the 4 year school with only 2 years left.
I say go for it, don't let perceived comfort hold you back! Once summer is over, I will be Urban Camping full time and working out of a library building my startup.
Two days out of the week I am dedicating to my self-education (for which I have pursued over the last four years with much fun).
It's an investment, a big one. I only work 40-50 hours a week to maintain a 1k p/month apartment; when I could be putting those 40-50 hours a week to the startup ideas I have, programming projects (building an Erlang backed triple store), self-education (math, rhetoric, logic, etc...), and DIY projects.
In the end, doing those things that I love and enjoy will bring monetary compensation greater than the job I work at. Since I will be Urban Camping it, my lifestyle couldn't really get 'worse'. Only better.
Do it! Do it! It's like jumping off that 30 foot cliff at the lake - scary to make yourself do it, but, push yourself off the edge and it's one hell of a fun ride.
Please keep us updated, I love the fact that I am meeting like minded people here!
Two days out of the week I am dedicating to my self-education (for which I have pursued over the last four years with much fun).
It's an investment, a big one. I only work 40-50 hours a week to maintain a 1k p/month apartment; when I could be putting those 40-50 hours a week to the startup ideas I have, programming projects (building an Erlang backed triple store), self-education (math, rhetoric, logic, etc...), and DIY projects.
In the end, doing those things that I love and enjoy will bring monetary compensation greater than the job I work at. Since I will be Urban Camping it, my lifestyle couldn't really get 'worse'. Only better.
Do it! Do it! It's like jumping off that 30 foot cliff at the lake - scary to make yourself do it, but, push yourself off the edge and it's one hell of a fun ride.
Please keep us updated, I love the fact that I am meeting like minded people here!
I wish I had got a degree in Math, College will give you structure and force discipline. You can get fit on your own at the gym, but if you go to boot camp its much easier. 1 vote for college!
I know exactly how you feel.
I am 29, married, no kids. I finished my undergrad in CS when I was 22. I worked as a systems software developer until last year when I quit my job and went for Masters in Statistics. I have 2 more courses left to take to get the degree.
I am no fan of academia, but I came back to school because I think it was the only way to completely immerse myself into what I wanted to learn. It obviously cost me over 1 year of pay I would have had otherwise plus the tuition fee. But it is totally damn worth it. Plus it gave me more time to work on my side project.
I am 29, married, no kids. I finished my undergrad in CS when I was 22. I worked as a systems software developer until last year when I quit my job and went for Masters in Statistics. I have 2 more courses left to take to get the degree.
I am no fan of academia, but I came back to school because I think it was the only way to completely immerse myself into what I wanted to learn. It obviously cost me over 1 year of pay I would have had otherwise plus the tuition fee. But it is totally damn worth it. Plus it gave me more time to work on my side project.
There is enormous satisfaction in doing something you enjoy. I agree that if you have no commitments to others (like kids) there is nothing wrong with pursuing your ambitions by ditching your lifestyle.
However I should add that there are some really first-rate distance learning programmes (in particular by Canadian and Australian universities, where the population density is low and there is a high demand for such things, but also Open University in the UK and I am sure US equivalents I am not aware of). These are not "degrees by mail", they are genuine courses by quality universities, with classes and lecturers and credits and so on.
Unless you are specifically attracted by the idea of being on a campus (and bear in mind, at your age it's not going to be the same as for the youngsters), you might want to see if any of them meet your needs and try multi-tasking for a while. If your employer values you, they might even agree to cut back your hours to give you more study time.
However I should add that there are some really first-rate distance learning programmes (in particular by Canadian and Australian universities, where the population density is low and there is a high demand for such things, but also Open University in the UK and I am sure US equivalents I am not aware of). These are not "degrees by mail", they are genuine courses by quality universities, with classes and lecturers and credits and so on.
Unless you are specifically attracted by the idea of being on a campus (and bear in mind, at your age it's not going to be the same as for the youngsters), you might want to see if any of them meet your needs and try multi-tasking for a while. If your employer values you, they might even agree to cut back your hours to give you more study time.
I have tried this (I am in the US) and the programs I have found with accredited math programs are for teaching math.
I took a look at Open University and they still don't have a full program for US-based students.
I took a look at Open University and they still don't have a full program for US-based students.
Well, I gave up my lifestyle and lived in poverty* to do a degree in maths and hated it - switched to computer science after the first year. Theoretical computer science turns me on way more than pure maths. But it firmly sounds as if you want to do it and you're willing to do it, and at 41, you've had enough life lessons to realise when something's a true goal. Go for it.
* admittedly, it wasn't a big hassle, since I was 18 and had a choice between continuing a half-decent job and going to uni. Uni, as the accepted path for people my age, wasn't exactly a hard choice. ;)
* admittedly, it wasn't a big hassle, since I was 18 and had a choice between continuing a half-decent job and going to uni. Uni, as the accepted path for people my age, wasn't exactly a hard choice. ;)
If you're not married, why not? What better way to expend yourself, to spend your life?
Do you have another bachelor's degree? If so, you might be able to get credit towards the masters (though perhaps credits are moot if the degree is carefully structured) when taking the undergrad math classes.
Do you have another bachelor's degree? If so, you might be able to get credit towards the masters (though perhaps credits are moot if the degree is carefully structured) when taking the undergrad math classes.
Seems like it might be worth separating the goals "learn math" and "get degree." Presumably it's the former you want. And if so, might there not be people good enough nearby that you could hire as private tutors? If there's a university nearby there should be: grad students.
Plan and simple do it man, pursue your goal and don't ask anyone else if you're doing it right and enjoy the journey.
I'm a Math and Computer Science major and I love it.
I'm a Math and Computer Science major and I love it.
hmm... you shouldn't because you have expectations? Do you? You say, "The thing i want to do"... why do you want to do it? What do you expect to get out of it. what is it that you really want? More knowledge? more earning potential? to be around people interested in learning? Analyze what it really is that you want. To have fun?
Fun. And because my life is at least half over and I haven't tried it.
Then go for it. Life is about new experiences and loving every minute.
If possible, try to think about areas of maths that interest you most and find a university that does that kind of research.
Find a job somewhere where there are part-time programs?
Quit fidgeting and just do it.
Why a degree?
Because of all topics/areas of study, I've found math to be the most difficult to self-study. I've made some progress on my own, but having a professor/teacher and marked stepping stones in a program is best for me. I'm definitely an autodidact, but I know my limitations.
What is my motivation?
The times my mind is fully engaged and I've been able to make mental leaps are when I'm working on interesting problems.
I have taken a few distance learning math courses at an accredited university and I found myself very engaged and learned a lot. But I found the format lacking: for difficult subjects I am going to need a real connection to encourage me past difficult spots.
Because of all topics/areas of study, I've found math to be the most difficult to self-study. I've made some progress on my own, but having a professor/teacher and marked stepping stones in a program is best for me. I'm definitely an autodidact, but I know my limitations.
What is my motivation?
The times my mind is fully engaged and I've been able to make mental leaps are when I'm working on interesting problems.
I have taken a few distance learning math courses at an accredited university and I found myself very engaged and learned a lot. But I found the format lacking: for difficult subjects I am going to need a real connection to encourage me past difficult spots.
I want to thank you all for the encouragement. I did not expect it. I thought people would say I'm too old and it is too late.
I've made it to 41 years old. I am a software engineer, and I'm so-so at it. I self-studied my way to a C++ programming job after working my way from network admin to web developer to programmer to software engineer since 1999. I'm not even all that great at math. But I failed my first programming course back in 1985, but I am now a well-paid professional. I know if I do a math program full time and work really hard, I can at least get to "good".
My one true joy is solving problems and I even enjoy figuring out proofs. I have taken enough math courses to know I thoroughly enjoy the subject. But there are no evening programs anywhere near my home to study math. There are no part-time programs. I would have to quit my job and find a way to finance myself through a proper math program.
I am willing to give up my current lifestyle and live in poverty to pursue this goal.
My question is, why shouldn't I do it? What lies at the other end of the goal? Am I crazy? Have any of you done such a thing? It feels like I am throwing my life to the wind. But if I don’t do it, I will regret it the rest of my life. Advice appreciated.