The Man Who Gets The Science Right On 'The Big Bang Theory'(npr.org)
npr.org
The Man Who Gets The Science Right On 'The Big Bang Theory'
http://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2013/09/23/224404260/the-man-who-gets-the-science-right-on-the-big-bang-theory
10 comments
I think a second core problem with BBT is that it really plays into the "trappings of being intelligent" - which is not how most intelligent people actually are. There are a TON of "signalling" devices, for example liking comic books, or having thick-rimmed glasses. Now, I'm not a physicist (chemist/biologist) and we may be more "down to earth" but I don't have a single scientist friend who HAS THE TIME to do a lot of those things that maybe in high school geeks/nerds did a lot of. I don't know anyone who plays D&D anymore, I don't know anyone who goes to Comic-Con (I'm in San Diego). We do stuff like - go hiking; I'm obsessed with social dance (where there are, incidentally, tons of engineers and scientists); I had a lot of math majors friends from college and of the ones that did math PhD programs, they wound up: climbing rediculous spires in red rock country, supermarathon running for fun... And one, after getting his PhD, joined the Navy and entered its pilot training program (he would have become a fighter pilot but there were no fighter billets available).
So, what bugs me about BBT in addition to having really awful people (watch "BBT without the laugh track" on youtube if you doubt it), is not only that it perpetuates stereotypes, it perpetuates really dumb stereotypes... And the life of a scientist, I think, swings from incredibly boring times in the lab, to super-exciting times in the lab, to "relatively normal social life" outside of the lab, except that that last one gets a lot less time, since, we're in the lab all the damn time.
So, what bugs me about BBT in addition to having really awful people (watch "BBT without the laugh track" on youtube if you doubt it), is not only that it perpetuates stereotypes, it perpetuates really dumb stereotypes... And the life of a scientist, I think, swings from incredibly boring times in the lab, to super-exciting times in the lab, to "relatively normal social life" outside of the lab, except that that last one gets a lot less time, since, we're in the lab all the damn time.
Indeed, I've heard the style of the humor on Big Bang Theory as
"Stupid comedy about smart things."
BBT bugs me for the same reasons. I've yet to find someone actually in the life that enjoys the show. It seems to be an outsider's view of 'what nerds and geeks do', rather than written by nerds and geeks. This is given away in the article when they say they had to be shown students' apartments to see what they looked like.
It's interesting that the people I know who like it are the ones who like to be close to STEM or academia, but not actually in it. A sort of living-the-fantasy. Admiring the trappings you talk about, all wrapped around a fairly bog-standard sitcom.
It's interesting that the people I know who like it are the ones who like to be close to STEM or academia, but not actually in it. A sort of living-the-fantasy. Admiring the trappings you talk about, all wrapped around a fairly bog-standard sitcom.
I don't know. In my personal opinion those critiques are overly critical.
My circle of friends is pretty much exactly like the main characters in the show. Nerdy, 20-something PhD guys that play board games and watch sci-fi. A few were actually almost as bad as Raj in not being able to say a word when a woman was around.
And I love the show. Loved it as soon as it came out just because it reminded me so much of my friends. And I don't feel like the characters are meant to be laughed at.
So, just to say, there's more than one perspective on this.
My circle of friends is pretty much exactly like the main characters in the show. Nerdy, 20-something PhD guys that play board games and watch sci-fi. A few were actually almost as bad as Raj in not being able to say a word when a woman was around.
And I love the show. Loved it as soon as it came out just because it reminded me so much of my friends. And I don't feel like the characters are meant to be laughed at.
So, just to say, there's more than one perspective on this.
I agree with this. Insofar as you're supposed to laugh at the characters, I think it's true of pretty much all sitcoms. Sitcoms are almost always about broad stroke "laugh at yourself, because you are funny" kind of stuff.
But more interestingly, often people who hold up this argument are fond of bringing up The IT Crowd as a counterpoint to BBT on this front and... I just don't get it. The people in IT Crowd are basically awful human beings I can't sympathize with, in spite of existing in a vaguely similar world as they do. The characters on BBT feel much more sympathetic to me. They're mostly trying to be good people at least.
But more interestingly, often people who hold up this argument are fond of bringing up The IT Crowd as a counterpoint to BBT on this front and... I just don't get it. The people in IT Crowd are basically awful human beings I can't sympathize with, in spite of existing in a vaguely similar world as they do. The characters on BBT feel much more sympathetic to me. They're mostly trying to be good people at least.
People who think the show is not "close enough" to real life don't know enough elite physicists or Caltech grad students/research scientists. Even within the world of tech PhD's (a small community in the scheme of things), Caltech is especially unusual. I have been impressed that the creators of the show can capture some of that oddness and make a go of it for a mass audience.
The show does struggle with female roles. As does its real-life counterpart.
The show does struggle with female roles. As does its real-life counterpart.
I think the appeal of BBT is that some people like to see a reflection of their microcosm: they like to see people like them, situations like the ones they experience, references to things they like, etc.. It makes them feel relevant and part of an in-group.
It's the same appeal that xkcd has. It has been called "referential humor", but I don't think it should be classified as humor, although for some people it seems to be a completely satisfying humor surrogate. Indeed, BBT and xkcd are both full of nerd references, devoid of actual humor, and enormously popular.
It's the same appeal that xkcd has. It has been called "referential humor", but I don't think it should be classified as humor, although for some people it seems to be a completely satisfying humor surrogate. Indeed, BBT and xkcd are both full of nerd references, devoid of actual humor, and enormously popular.
>> It has been called "referential humor", but I don't think it should be classified as humor, although for some people it seems to be a completely satisfying humor surrogate.
You're just completely missing the point. The joke is not the nerdy references. The references are a backdrop, a framework in which to develop the show's humor.
Do people really think, even for a second, that CBS developed a primetime network show whose jokes were targeted specifically to Caltech physics PhD students? Or even to self-identified nerds?
Think of it another way. The show is produced by Chuck Lorrie, the same guy who produced Two and a Half Men, which featured Charlie Sheen as a Malibu playboy. Did you think Two And A Half Men was written to appeal primarily to Malibu playboys? Would you consider that referential humor? Do you think Malibu bachelors got their panties in a twist because some of the jokes poked fun at the show's main characters?
Some of the characters on the show are quirky and flawed, and sometimes they're the subject of ridicule. Flip the channel to another sitcom. It's the exact same thing, but about jocks, or suburban families, or blue-collared delivery truck drivers.
Only the nerd community has enough of an ingrained victim mentality to take it personally, to think the show should be about them, or that jokes about nerds should be off limits.
You're just completely missing the point. The joke is not the nerdy references. The references are a backdrop, a framework in which to develop the show's humor.
Do people really think, even for a second, that CBS developed a primetime network show whose jokes were targeted specifically to Caltech physics PhD students? Or even to self-identified nerds?
Think of it another way. The show is produced by Chuck Lorrie, the same guy who produced Two and a Half Men, which featured Charlie Sheen as a Malibu playboy. Did you think Two And A Half Men was written to appeal primarily to Malibu playboys? Would you consider that referential humor? Do you think Malibu bachelors got their panties in a twist because some of the jokes poked fun at the show's main characters?
Some of the characters on the show are quirky and flawed, and sometimes they're the subject of ridicule. Flip the channel to another sitcom. It's the exact same thing, but about jocks, or suburban families, or blue-collared delivery truck drivers.
Only the nerd community has enough of an ingrained victim mentality to take it personally, to think the show should be about them, or that jokes about nerds should be off limits.
>Do people really think, even for a second, that CBS developed a primetime network show whose jokes were targeted specifically to Caltech physics PhD students? Or even to self-identified nerds?
Yes, and it named it The Big Band Theory.
I mean seriously, did you really think, ever for a second, that this wasn't at attempt to hit the target group of (not Caltech PhD students of course) the "geek/nerd crowd" -- a group which nowadays is more populous than ever, and it's not "the kiss of death" to indentity with anymore?
It's delluded to think the setting is not part of the targetting strategy and merely serves as a backdrop for the humor. That's not how TV works. The BBT is targeted for this crowd as much as Twilight is for teenage girls.
Yes, and it named it The Big Band Theory.
I mean seriously, did you really think, ever for a second, that this wasn't at attempt to hit the target group of (not Caltech PhD students of course) the "geek/nerd crowd" -- a group which nowadays is more populous than ever, and it's not "the kiss of death" to indentity with anymore?
It's delluded to think the setting is not part of the targetting strategy and merely serves as a backdrop for the humor. That's not how TV works. The BBT is targeted for this crowd as much as Twilight is for teenage girls.
Right. You're the center of the universe.
And "Gilligan's Island" was made for people stranded on desert islands.
"Taxi" targeted that coveted taxi driver demographic.
"That 70s Show" targeted time-travelling teenagers from the 1970s.
"Scrubs" was written for doctors. Remember how upset all the doctors were when Scrubs joked about doctor stereotypes? No?
Likewise "Frasier" was for effete psychiatrists, "Cheers" for bar flys, and "I Love Lucy" for Cuban bandleaders and their wives.
Or, it's just a comedy about some quirky, nerdy friends, written to appeal to a very broad audience.
And "Gilligan's Island" was made for people stranded on desert islands.
"Taxi" targeted that coveted taxi driver demographic.
"That 70s Show" targeted time-travelling teenagers from the 1970s.
"Scrubs" was written for doctors. Remember how upset all the doctors were when Scrubs joked about doctor stereotypes? No?
Likewise "Frasier" was for effete psychiatrists, "Cheers" for bar flys, and "I Love Lucy" for Cuban bandleaders and their wives.
Or, it's just a comedy about some quirky, nerdy friends, written to appeal to a very broad audience.
The way Chuck Lorre writes, the scripts could be transposed onto just about any combination of stereotypes you can imagine. Stereotypes are his game, and BBT could just as easily be shot with the Happy Days characters with the Fonz in the Penny role.
>Right. You're the center of the universe
No; but you are at the center of a strawman.
Didn't the fact that I already wrote that "Twilight is targeted at teenage girls" stop you from writing all those dreadful "counter-examples" (as if I believed that the fictual setting of a show automatically and necesarrily determines the target audience?)
If I followed the strawman logic you accuse me of having, I'd have said "Twilight is targeted at vampires and girls having affairs with them". I did not.
As for your rude question, no, I'm just at the center of a big enough and profitable demographic -- geeks, semi-geeks, etc that have come out of the woodwork ever since the mid-nineties/early oughts, and for which tons of media content is produced, from J. Abraham's and Josh Whedon's stuff, to the nth comic book movie and down to Kevin Smith's Comic Book Men TV series.
The "counter-examples" that you provide, are workplaces and professions, that have served as generic backdrops for drama for ages. They are not about a specific demographic, and their content and references are not targeted at them. On a medical drama, for example, the content is all about relationships, tension, love affairs, etc, not the practice of medicine. They characters might as well be lawyers and the show would still work, whereas in BBT the content is all about the geek references, and nothing is generic and universal.
You even seem unaware of the fact that shows can be targeted a specific demographic, like, say, Friends created for 20-somethings, or Sex and The City created for 30+ women.
No; but you are at the center of a strawman.
Didn't the fact that I already wrote that "Twilight is targeted at teenage girls" stop you from writing all those dreadful "counter-examples" (as if I believed that the fictual setting of a show automatically and necesarrily determines the target audience?)
If I followed the strawman logic you accuse me of having, I'd have said "Twilight is targeted at vampires and girls having affairs with them". I did not.
As for your rude question, no, I'm just at the center of a big enough and profitable demographic -- geeks, semi-geeks, etc that have come out of the woodwork ever since the mid-nineties/early oughts, and for which tons of media content is produced, from J. Abraham's and Josh Whedon's stuff, to the nth comic book movie and down to Kevin Smith's Comic Book Men TV series.
The "counter-examples" that you provide, are workplaces and professions, that have served as generic backdrops for drama for ages. They are not about a specific demographic, and their content and references are not targeted at them. On a medical drama, for example, the content is all about relationships, tension, love affairs, etc, not the practice of medicine. They characters might as well be lawyers and the show would still work, whereas in BBT the content is all about the geek references, and nothing is generic and universal.
You even seem unaware of the fact that shows can be targeted a specific demographic, like, say, Friends created for 20-somethings, or Sex and The City created for 30+ women.
> Didn't the fact that I already wrote that "Twilight is targeted at teenage girls" stop you from writing all those dreadful "counter-examples"
No, merely reference Twilight is not enough because in majority of cases, a show about a certain type of characters is not necessarily targeted to that audience.
The gist of your argument is that since (1) geeks are more prominent in pop culture lately, (2) BBT is a comedy about geeks, then it follows that (3) BBT must be a show for geeks. Certainly that's possible, but where's the evidence? Another possibility is that the show is targeted towards people who know a geek (which is a much larger audience... essentially everyone).
> "in BBT the content is all about the geek references, and nothing is generic and universal."
I disagree. BBT is a comedy, and the content is the jokes, 99% of which, you don't actually have to be a geek to get (it certainly helps if you know a geek or are familiar with the geek stereotype).
Yes, BBT includes geek references. So what? Excuse the "dreadful counter-examples", but ER included medical references, MASH included military references, etc. That's required by concept of the show.
I think the most damning evidence against your claim is BBT's audience. It's a wildly successful show, yet so many self-identified geeks on Internet have problems with it (mainly the ones who think it should be a show just for them. Hmm.) So the burden of proof that it's actually a show specifically for geeks (but just happens to appeal to non-geeks) is on you. And you presented no evidence.
No, merely reference Twilight is not enough because in majority of cases, a show about a certain type of characters is not necessarily targeted to that audience.
The gist of your argument is that since (1) geeks are more prominent in pop culture lately, (2) BBT is a comedy about geeks, then it follows that (3) BBT must be a show for geeks. Certainly that's possible, but where's the evidence? Another possibility is that the show is targeted towards people who know a geek (which is a much larger audience... essentially everyone).
> "in BBT the content is all about the geek references, and nothing is generic and universal."
I disagree. BBT is a comedy, and the content is the jokes, 99% of which, you don't actually have to be a geek to get (it certainly helps if you know a geek or are familiar with the geek stereotype).
Yes, BBT includes geek references. So what? Excuse the "dreadful counter-examples", but ER included medical references, MASH included military references, etc. That's required by concept of the show.
I think the most damning evidence against your claim is BBT's audience. It's a wildly successful show, yet so many self-identified geeks on Internet have problems with it (mainly the ones who think it should be a show just for them. Hmm.) So the burden of proof that it's actually a show specifically for geeks (but just happens to appeal to non-geeks) is on you. And you presented no evidence.
>The gist of your argument is that since (1) geeks are more prominent in pop culture lately, (2) BBT is a comedy about geeks, then it follows that (3) BBT must be a show for geeks.
No, I'm not arguing anything. I'm not into formal reasoning in common discussions.
What I said is BBT is a show for geeks, period. The other stuff I said to explain why they made it so, not to prove that it is so.
So I offer no "evidence" and no "proof" (that would be too geeky in itself) -- just my opinion that BBT is a show targeted at the general geek audience, take it or leave it.
>Yes, BBT includes geek references. So what? Excuse the "dreadful counter-examples", but ER included medical references, MASH included military references, etc. That's required by concept of the show.
I think I answered that objection in my original comment: while those shows also contain references, the difference is that BBT "is all about the geek references, and nothing is generic and universal".
No, I'm not arguing anything. I'm not into formal reasoning in common discussions.
What I said is BBT is a show for geeks, period. The other stuff I said to explain why they made it so, not to prove that it is so.
So I offer no "evidence" and no "proof" (that would be too geeky in itself) -- just my opinion that BBT is a show targeted at the general geek audience, take it or leave it.
>Yes, BBT includes geek references. So what? Excuse the "dreadful counter-examples", but ER included medical references, MASH included military references, etc. That's required by concept of the show.
I think I answered that objection in my original comment: while those shows also contain references, the difference is that BBT "is all about the geek references, and nothing is generic and universal".
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> It's the same appeal that xkcd has. It has been called "referential humor", but I don't think it should be classified as humor, although for some people it seems to be a completely satisfying humor surrogate.
Humor is subjective. But just because what is funny to other people isn't funny to you doesn't make it "not humor", its just not humor that appeals to you.
Humor is subjective. But just because what is funny to other people isn't funny to you doesn't make it "not humor", its just not humor that appeals to you.
> It has been called "referential humor", but I don't think it should be classified as humor, although for some people it seems to be a completely satisfying humor surrogate.
I call them "tribal markers".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics
I call them "tribal markers".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics
I once heard Big Bang Theory described as "blackface for nerds"* and it made me suddenly realize why I was so uncomfortable watching that show.
* I hope no one thinks I'm trying to trivialize blackface which was, of course, far worse than what Big Bang Theory is doing.
* I hope no one thinks I'm trying to trivialize blackface which was, of course, far worse than what Big Bang Theory is doing.
I prefer another saying I've heard - Big Bang Theory is a dumb show about smart people, and Arrested Development is a smart show about dumb people
I've heard it expressed as "The Big Bang theory is a dumb person's idea of what a show for smart people would be like."
I really wish people would stop saying this. Even if you don't mean to trivialize what blackface actually was, that is basically the net effect. It's a terrible analogy on pretty much every level.
When the analogy is a worse thing than what is being likened, it is not trivialized. The thing being likened is moved to the level of the analogy and compared to see if the analogy is apt.
For example, "my teacher is a Nazi" does not make anyone think Nazis are only as bad as teachers, only that the student is overreacting (comparing the teacher to something that is on another level, i.e., worse.) The inverse, "Nazis were basically strict teachers," is a horrible thing to say as it brings Nazis down to the level of something benign.
To say The Big Bang Theory is blackface does not make a person wonder if blacks were actually only mistreated as much as nerds. It makes a person wonder if nerds are systemically exploited and mocked by social superiors. The answer is that in a very limited way, this happens, but it happens in an extremely irrelevant part of life (school) and nerds go on to run the world and are unquestionably full equals, possibly superiors, of more athletic people socially and politically. At no point here do we think blacks are only as mistreated as nerds.
On the other hand, saying something like "being black before the Civil Rights movement was like being the nerd in high school" is obviously offensive because we are bringing the black experience to the level of the analogy, being a nerd, and then making the comparison, and it's not even close.
For example, "my teacher is a Nazi" does not make anyone think Nazis are only as bad as teachers, only that the student is overreacting (comparing the teacher to something that is on another level, i.e., worse.) The inverse, "Nazis were basically strict teachers," is a horrible thing to say as it brings Nazis down to the level of something benign.
To say The Big Bang Theory is blackface does not make a person wonder if blacks were actually only mistreated as much as nerds. It makes a person wonder if nerds are systemically exploited and mocked by social superiors. The answer is that in a very limited way, this happens, but it happens in an extremely irrelevant part of life (school) and nerds go on to run the world and are unquestionably full equals, possibly superiors, of more athletic people socially and politically. At no point here do we think blacks are only as mistreated as nerds.
On the other hand, saying something like "being black before the Civil Rights movement was like being the nerd in high school" is obviously offensive because we are bringing the black experience to the level of the analogy, being a nerd, and then making the comparison, and it's not even close.
They both set up caricatures of an unpopular group for the audience to laugh at. Like I said, blackface is far worse but I don't see how the analogy is "[terrible] on pretty much every level". It's much less hateful and damaging, certainly, but it's there in tone.
I was hoping to not have this debate that invariably comes up about how you can't compare anything to blackface because of how bad blackface was but I don't consider that a valid argument against the comparison.
I was hoping to not have this debate that invariably comes up about how you can't compare anything to blackface because of how bad blackface was but I don't consider that a valid argument against the comparison.
I feel like the second paragraph wasn't there when I first replied to this, but if it was I just didn't notice it. I'd like to address it specifically either way.
I'm not at all saying "you can't compare anything to blackface." There are absolutely modern power structures that resemble it, and it is absolutely right to point them out and deal with them. I would never ever say that you shouldn't.
What I'm saying is that this is not a matter of scope but structure. Structurally, whatever you're seeing in Big Bang Theory does not resemble in any way what exists in traditional minstrelry. The people who are the butt of the joke in Big Bang Theory do not suffer systemic disadvantages in the way that Black people in the Jim Crowe era did, and they actually enjoy quite a lot of systemic advantages.
If merely caricaturing people for an audience to laugh at is sufficient justification for a comparison to minstrelry, then the entire comedy industry is and has always been guilty of it. As for unpopular, I'd also argue that there's a vast difference between unpopular and being treated as subhuman by law, to the point that they are not even close to the same thing. Black people being 'unpopular' is not why minstrelry was wrong.
I'm not at all saying "you can't compare anything to blackface." There are absolutely modern power structures that resemble it, and it is absolutely right to point them out and deal with them. I would never ever say that you shouldn't.
What I'm saying is that this is not a matter of scope but structure. Structurally, whatever you're seeing in Big Bang Theory does not resemble in any way what exists in traditional minstrelry. The people who are the butt of the joke in Big Bang Theory do not suffer systemic disadvantages in the way that Black people in the Jim Crowe era did, and they actually enjoy quite a lot of systemic advantages.
If merely caricaturing people for an audience to laugh at is sufficient justification for a comparison to minstrelry, then the entire comedy industry is and has always been guilty of it. As for unpopular, I'd also argue that there's a vast difference between unpopular and being treated as subhuman by law, to the point that they are not even close to the same thing. Black people being 'unpopular' is not why minstrelry was wrong.
Part of what makes blackface so horrible is the power imbalance that underlies it. In the days of minstrelry, black people were deeply and powerfully unequal in civil society. They had no recourse against the indignity done to them by blackface performance, and it was an indignity forced on them by a more powerful social class.
Try replacing nerds with black people in that paragraph and tell me it's at all comparable.
Try replacing nerds with black people in that paragraph and tell me it's at all comparable.
Put it in context of a high school / middle school lunchroom...
Where, in spite of that, your teachers were probably pushing you to perform, and when you got out you probably had no trouble getting into a good school which made it more likely for you to get a good job.
Kids are cruel, but their social order is not the real world. In the real world nerds are not a disadvantaged, let alone oppressed, group.
Kids are cruel, but their social order is not the real world. In the real world nerds are not a disadvantaged, let alone oppressed, group.
Absolutely. Its history stings no less for some, however.
It is comparable. In the way that blackface allowed African Americans to work in venues and productions that they were otherwise prohibited, BBT allows nerds to be the subject of a mainstream sitcom.
BBT is not at all empowering the way that "Weird Science," for example, was, and highly-mainstream TV executive Chuck Lorre is of exactly a more powerful class who has allowed nerds to enter into a world where they were previously excluded. That BBT is only slighly less-awful than how nerds were previously portrayed is not a badge of honor.
How often does the show demonstrate dignified interactions between its main characters and the outside world?
BBT is not at all empowering the way that "Weird Science," for example, was, and highly-mainstream TV executive Chuck Lorre is of exactly a more powerful class who has allowed nerds to enter into a world where they were previously excluded. That BBT is only slighly less-awful than how nerds were previously portrayed is not a badge of honor.
How often does the show demonstrate dignified interactions between its main characters and the outside world?
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> Can we at least agree that laugh tracks are awful, even on otherwise-phenomenal shows (Seinfeld)?
No. Multi-camera sitcoms with live audiences are very, very different in writing, tone, and end product to single camera comedies. They both serve different purposes.
Shooting a sitcom in front of a studio audience radically alters the pacing, the way jokes are told, and the setup (you're inherently constrained to fewer sets).
I think there is still a space today for comedies with live audiences (and the ratings seem to back this up). I love Arrested Development. I also love Frasier. AD would obviously never have worked with a live audience, Frasier would have been a far worse show without the laugh track.
Now, I'm not talking about canned laughter. I think I can agree that adding laughter in post is bad. And Big Bang Theory is particularly guilty of 'sweetening' live audience reaction, meaning jokes that shouldn't be that funny often have huge waves of laughter. I don't appreciate that.
No. Multi-camera sitcoms with live audiences are very, very different in writing, tone, and end product to single camera comedies. They both serve different purposes.
Shooting a sitcom in front of a studio audience radically alters the pacing, the way jokes are told, and the setup (you're inherently constrained to fewer sets).
I think there is still a space today for comedies with live audiences (and the ratings seem to back this up). I love Arrested Development. I also love Frasier. AD would obviously never have worked with a live audience, Frasier would have been a far worse show without the laugh track.
Now, I'm not talking about canned laughter. I think I can agree that adding laughter in post is bad. And Big Bang Theory is particularly guilty of 'sweetening' live audience reaction, meaning jokes that shouldn't be that funny often have huge waves of laughter. I don't appreciate that.
Can you elaborate on why Frasier would have been a far worse show without the laugh track?
One show which benefited from a laugh track was Married With Children, because it was an unapologetically trashy show about trashy people, and the audience hoots and jeers contributed to its low-brow atmosphere.
But the Big Bang Theory suffers horribly for its laugh track. It's not just the disproportionate reaction to jokes, it's the laughter at things that aren't jokes at all. See for example this egregious example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN3qn92R0SE , in which the audience starts cracking up after "My new computer came with Windows 7."
One show which benefited from a laugh track was Married With Children, because it was an unapologetically trashy show about trashy people, and the audience hoots and jeers contributed to its low-brow atmosphere.
But the Big Bang Theory suffers horribly for its laugh track. It's not just the disproportionate reaction to jokes, it's the laughter at things that aren't jokes at all. See for example this egregious example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN3qn92R0SE , in which the audience starts cracking up after "My new computer came with Windows 7."
> Multi-camera sitcoms with live audiences are very, very different in writing, tone, and end product to single camera comedies. They both serve different purposes.
Or, y'know, you could have single camera comedies with no laugh track. The British seem to manage that just fine. I personally find laugh tracks equal parts desperate and condescending. "Hey dummy! There's a joke here! Laugh damn you... LAUGH!!"
Or, y'know, you could have single camera comedies with no laugh track. The British seem to manage that just fine. I personally find laugh tracks equal parts desperate and condescending. "Hey dummy! There's a joke here! Laugh damn you... LAUGH!!"
Did you miss the last paragraph of his post. He was comparing live in-studio w/ audience to single camera, saying how a laugh track in live in-studio helps, and then goes on to note how he doesn't approve of canned laughter.
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>Now, I'm not talking about canned laughter. I think I can agree that adding laughter in post is bad. And Big Bang Theory is particularly guilty of 'sweetening' live audience reaction, meaning jokes that shouldn't be that funny often have huge waves of laughter. I don't appreciate that.
You are looking at it wrong. Do you know why the laughter is edited in post? You agreed that they film in front of a live audience (something most BBT bashers still can't accept from personal observations).
Now, one scene, multiple takes. The take that makes it into the show might have been the fifth one of the day. Of course the laughter that take produced is nowhere near as the initial response to the joke. So, you edit the laughter in post to make it fit. That has got nothing to do with "sweetening" anything. Unless you would rather they just use the laughter form the actual take, even though it was the 12th attempt and after seeing the joke 12 times the audience couldn't muster up so much as a snicker.
You are looking at it wrong. Do you know why the laughter is edited in post? You agreed that they film in front of a live audience (something most BBT bashers still can't accept from personal observations).
Now, one scene, multiple takes. The take that makes it into the show might have been the fifth one of the day. Of course the laughter that take produced is nowhere near as the initial response to the joke. So, you edit the laughter in post to make it fit. That has got nothing to do with "sweetening" anything. Unless you would rather they just use the laughter form the actual take, even though it was the 12th attempt and after seeing the joke 12 times the audience couldn't muster up so much as a snicker.
I started to feel this way watching Two and a Half Men, because of the character Allan. After some years of laughs I just felt awkward because there was this, incredibly unlucky, with no particular skill socially or professionally, mistreated by everybody, from his ex-wife to his brother's maid, humiliated by women, with no will-power to fight back. Really, it was just sad. Usually even the weak characters have some quality, some strenght you have to admire in them - as a pure heart. They stripped Allan from all that.
But I guess other people started feeling the same way because they change it a little bit. They gave him a beautiful, nice girlfriend, some qualities, some character, some opinion. As a result it is a more human character now, not a freak show.
And about BBT, I guess the writers give the characters some of these qualities, so I don't feel as awkward whatching it as I was watching 2&1/2Men.
But I guess other people started feeling the same way because they change it a little bit. They gave him a beautiful, nice girlfriend, some qualities, some character, some opinion. As a result it is a more human character now, not a freak show.
And about BBT, I guess the writers give the characters some of these qualities, so I don't feel as awkward whatching it as I was watching 2&1/2Men.
For me the awkwardness started when I realized that Charlie Sheen was playing himself. A morally deficient, manipulative, self-centered douche-bag who happens to be hell bent on self-destruction, yet he always narrowly avoids it due to his disproportionate amounts of luck.
I agree, they made Allan so pathetic. I also learned that Jon Cryer is an incredibly good comedy actor. Charlie wasn't really acting, he was just being himself but Allan was a real piece of depressing work.
I felt exactly this way too. You know how you just cringe about something, knowing exactly how awful it's going to be or feel? That describes most of my reactions to Allan, and is part of the reason I quit watching. The other was that the raunchy factor seemed to know no lower bound. I finally reached a point where I couldn't take anymore and quit watching (around the time Ashton Kutcher came in).
I personally find the characters very sympathetic and laughing at the BBT characters is like laughing at myself. It's refreshing to see the extreme qualities which other shows merely caricature be shown in the context of fully fleshed out human beings.
BBT doesn't flesh out those characters. Most other shows I watch do.
Ben Wyatt on Parks and Rec comes off as a much more realistic nerd than any of the characters on BBT.
Abed Nadir in Community is also a whole lot more fleshed out than the characters in BBT.
The BBT characters are the epitome of stereotypical, caricatures of nerds. None of them are ever shown to have interests other than the traditionally nerdy kind.
If by "fully fleshed out human beings", you mean they happen to be main characters, sure. But by any other definition of "fully fleshed out" vs "caricature", they're much closer to caricature.
Ben Wyatt on Parks and Rec comes off as a much more realistic nerd than any of the characters on BBT.
Abed Nadir in Community is also a whole lot more fleshed out than the characters in BBT.
The BBT characters are the epitome of stereotypical, caricatures of nerds. None of them are ever shown to have interests other than the traditionally nerdy kind.
If by "fully fleshed out human beings", you mean they happen to be main characters, sure. But by any other definition of "fully fleshed out" vs "caricature", they're much closer to caricature.
> In short, the core problem is that the characters are not sympathetic -- you're meant to laugh at them, not with them, to say nothing of the show's terribly backwards gender roles.
For the record: I disagree 100% with every single statement in there.
For the record: I disagree 100% with every single statement in there.
For the record: I agree 100% with everything you said.
It bothered me too, I thought about it and came to the same conclusion. Moreover, while watching the show (always at the behest of someone else, by now perhaps in four different countries) I am primarily left wondering how twisted the producers of such a show must be, and how sick the entire entertainment industry really is.
If you ask me, Buddhism got it right: communicating trivialities, distractions and divisive speech are things fundamentally unhealthy to ourselves and our environments that we should seek to avoid.
Hollywood, on the other hand, celebrates the same. Of course, people will interpret this as fundamentalism, and of course I'm not advocating zero entertainment (I believe we should all be free to make our own decisions about which company to keep and media to consume and produce). I am, however, advocating calling a spade a spade, and I do think novum's comments are right on the mark with this show.
If you ask me, Buddhism got it right: communicating trivialities, distractions and divisive speech are things fundamentally unhealthy to ourselves and our environments that we should seek to avoid.
Hollywood, on the other hand, celebrates the same. Of course, people will interpret this as fundamentalism, and of course I'm not advocating zero entertainment (I believe we should all be free to make our own decisions about which company to keep and media to consume and produce). I am, however, advocating calling a spade a spade, and I do think novum's comments are right on the mark with this show.
> Edit 2: Can we at least agree that laugh tracks are awful, even on otherwise-phenomenal shows (Seinfeld)?
BBT does not use a laugh track.
BBT does not use a laugh track.
You are right that its not canned laughter, but a laugh track can more generally refer to a separate track for the audience's laughter. This can be edited to compensate for jokes that require repeated takes or have its level's adjusted just like the rest of the sound in the show.
I don't watch the show, so I can't say for sure, but its possible that the way the laugh track is mixed makes it more obvious than other shows, such as 90s sitcoms.
I don't watch the show, so I can't say for sure, but its possible that the way the laugh track is mixed makes it more obvious than other shows, such as 90s sitcoms.
> I don't watch the show, so I can't say for sure, but its possible that the way the laugh track is mixed makes it more obvious than other shows, such as 90s sitcoms.
Chuck Lorre, the producer for the show, is really ticked off at people who say that BBT has a laugh track, and has been very adamant that it does not.
Chuck Lorre, the producer for the show, is really ticked off at people who say that BBT has a laugh track, and has been very adamant that it does not.
Chuck Lorre, the producer for the show, is really ticked off at people who say that BBT has a laugh track, and has been very adamant that it does not.
Good for him. The television producer can split hairs about terms that have different industry and layman uses all he wants.
Either way, there is still studio audience laughter embedded in the show's audio. Dude should be well aware that home viewers can disagree with the recorded audience on whether or not punchlines are powerful enough for audible laughs, and that when they disagree often enough the audience laughter becomes very grating to the viewer.
And ultimately, that's what he is ticked off about. The way the laughs bother people is a indictment of the comedy in the show. When viewers agree with the recorded audience about what is funny, they don't notice the recorded laughs as much, so they don't complain as much.
Good for him. The television producer can split hairs about terms that have different industry and layman uses all he wants.
Either way, there is still studio audience laughter embedded in the show's audio. Dude should be well aware that home viewers can disagree with the recorded audience on whether or not punchlines are powerful enough for audible laughs, and that when they disagree often enough the audience laughter becomes very grating to the viewer.
And ultimately, that's what he is ticked off about. The way the laughs bother people is a indictment of the comedy in the show. When viewers agree with the recorded audience about what is funny, they don't notice the recorded laughs as much, so they don't complain as much.
I'm sorry, but this isn't "layman use" of the term laugh track: it is simply wrong. A laugh track is a separately recorded or constructed track of laughter that didn't exist when the show was being shot. Calling a live studio audience a "laugh track" is an absurd black-is-white abuse of the term.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laugh_track
The laugh track has a long and sordid history in US television recording, and Lorre is ticked off that people think his shows have to result to fakery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laugh_track
The laugh track has a long and sordid history in US television recording, and Lorre is ticked off that people think his shows have to result to fakery.
From the second sentence of that article: "In some productions the laughter is a live audience response".
I don't want to get into linguistics wankery about when a definition counts, but I really don't think it's as absolute as you're portraying it. Certainly not if have to point me to wikipedia to refute the way it is often used in by people who don't know nor care about the canned/audience distinction.
On top of that, you seem to be banking on the idea I won't actually click your link, from the first paragraph:
On top of that, you seem to be banking on the idea I won't actually click your link, from the first paragraph:
In some productions the laughter is a live audience response;
in the U.S., the term usually implies artificial laughter (canned
laughter or fake laughter) made to be inserted into the show.
>but its possible that the way the laugh track is mixed makes it more obvious than other shows, such as 90s sitcoms.
It isn't. It is exactly the same as any other sitcom that was filmed in front of a live audience. No better, no worse.
It is just that some people won't give BBT a pass on that usage.
And in a dramatic twist, most people who hate BBT loooooooooove The IT crowd. Somehow I have never heard any of those fans to criticize them for using a laugh track. Weird right? Cause that show does not only use one, it is completely canned laughter as they do not film in front of an audience. Just think what the BBT bashers would have to say if BBT did it like that and The IT crowd would use a live audience. They would go mental over this.
It isn't. It is exactly the same as any other sitcom that was filmed in front of a live audience. No better, no worse.
It is just that some people won't give BBT a pass on that usage.
And in a dramatic twist, most people who hate BBT loooooooooove The IT crowd. Somehow I have never heard any of those fans to criticize them for using a laugh track. Weird right? Cause that show does not only use one, it is completely canned laughter as they do not film in front of an audience. Just think what the BBT bashers would have to say if BBT did it like that and The IT crowd would use a live audience. They would go mental over this.
The Big Bang Theory is a horrible piece of television. It's so horribly cliched that I feel somewhat insulted that it perpetuates the overused stereotypes that nerds are socially awkward people who are afraid of girls, love Star Trek, wear thick-rimmed glasses, idolise Stephen Hawking and have bad people skills.
Good on them for having science consultants to get the science part of the show right, but the show is uncomfortable to watch. BBT is a dumb show about smart people. A show that repeats beaten to death stereotypes about nerds and jocks, a show that does nothing to break the status quo that smart people are the only hope this world has and that all smart people aren't comic book loving introverts who never go out and are 40 year old virgins.
Obviously I am not the target of this show nor are any of my educated friends with degrees. But I can tell you the stereotype of what smart people actually are is completely wrong because smart people can't be pigeon holed into a certain category. Everyone is different; you have your introverts and extroverts, your comic book readers and non-comic-book readers.
As usual I am overreacting. I have a passionate disdain for this show and know of many others who feel exactly the same way. I didn't intend for this to sound like a rant, it's somewhat out of place, but felt it had to be said.
Good on them for having science consultants to get the science part of the show right, but the show is uncomfortable to watch. BBT is a dumb show about smart people. A show that repeats beaten to death stereotypes about nerds and jocks, a show that does nothing to break the status quo that smart people are the only hope this world has and that all smart people aren't comic book loving introverts who never go out and are 40 year old virgins.
Obviously I am not the target of this show nor are any of my educated friends with degrees. But I can tell you the stereotype of what smart people actually are is completely wrong because smart people can't be pigeon holed into a certain category. Everyone is different; you have your introverts and extroverts, your comic book readers and non-comic-book readers.
As usual I am overreacting. I have a passionate disdain for this show and know of many others who feel exactly the same way. I didn't intend for this to sound like a rant, it's somewhat out of place, but felt it had to be said.
Us people who are "stereotyped" by this show think it's very funny, and don't really need you to be the white knight that saves us from a terrible Hollywood sitcom. If there's anything offensive here, it's your condescending attitude.
Did you similarly rail on "Sex in the City" for not realistically portraying women and sexuality?
Did you similarly rail on "Sex in the City" for not realistically portraying women and sexuality?
What exactly is funny about Big Bang Theory? I'm not trying to be a "white knight" here. I was giving an opinion on a show that I know many people dislike due to its over-the-top and unfunny stereotype perpetuating...
I'm sorry if you think I am being condescending, but not once did I insult or single out any particular individual, I called out a show which is definitely not funny for being completely unoriginal. I didn't call out people that watch the show, if you watch it and like it, then good for you, I'm not saying you are a bad person or any less of a person for doing so.
Your comment is condescending if you want to get specific. You've singled me out for having an opinion on a show you share a different opinion on. Who's the bad guy here? Keep things civil buddy, stop trying to bait me, it won't work. Run along now.
I'm sorry if you think I am being condescending, but not once did I insult or single out any particular individual, I called out a show which is definitely not funny for being completely unoriginal. I didn't call out people that watch the show, if you watch it and like it, then good for you, I'm not saying you are a bad person or any less of a person for doing so.
Your comment is condescending if you want to get specific. You've singled me out for having an opinion on a show you share a different opinion on. Who's the bad guy here? Keep things civil buddy, stop trying to bait me, it won't work. Run along now.
"Saltzberg says he became a scientist partly because of popular culture, such as Isaac Asimov's science fiction and the '70s TV show Space: 1999. He believes the rigor and passion for science he brings to The Big Bang Theory might inspire kids in the audience to one day become scientists, too."
Could be right there. When I searched Instagram for #bbt once, I found a couple of posts like 'I wish my friends were this smart' or 'I want to be a nerd too' with pics from the series. I think the series may give science a good image.
Could be right there. When I searched Instagram for #bbt once, I found a couple of posts like 'I wish my friends were this smart' or 'I want to be a nerd too' with pics from the series. I think the series may give science a good image.
The show gets some interesting aspects of physics culture right. For example, there's the chauvinism of theorists over experimentalists. I was a bit surprised by this when I first encountered it, but I soon came to realize it's probably motivated by jealously and rejection. Experimentalists operate under the constraint of having to realize a test of one theory and stick with that same theory for months or years at a time, but they get all the cool toys plus the potential for real "Eureaka!" moments (even if those are exceedingly rare). Most theorists would never admit to being jealous of this but, at the same time, they cannot deny being jealous when their colleagues get to work with experimentalists. There are a lot more theorists out there creating material to test than there are labs able to test material! Theorists need to develop tough skin to handle all the times their theories are dismissed as "uninteresting" by experimentalists who define "interesting" as "something we can test". To make matters worse, many experimentalists are also damned good theorists. They're the physics-world equivalent of geniuses who are also first-class jocks!
It makes sense for Sheldon to be the ultimate theorist chauvinist since he works with string theory, which is, so far, not of much interest to experimentalists because its so impractical to test! Salzburg is definitely a theorist, and it shows. The whiteboards may be correct most of the time, but the lab scenes are just painfully bad! All they really amount to is, "Hey look! Lasers!". Having a consultant around to check your white-boards is fine, but they should send the writers to intern in an experimental lab for a bit if they ever want to move past seeing the world through Sheldon's eyes.
P.S. I specifically watched this show because, when you tell people you work in physics, BBT is the first thing they think of. If there's a TV show specifically about your profession it's surprisingly awkward to be completely ignorant of it!
It makes sense for Sheldon to be the ultimate theorist chauvinist since he works with string theory, which is, so far, not of much interest to experimentalists because its so impractical to test! Salzburg is definitely a theorist, and it shows. The whiteboards may be correct most of the time, but the lab scenes are just painfully bad! All they really amount to is, "Hey look! Lasers!". Having a consultant around to check your white-boards is fine, but they should send the writers to intern in an experimental lab for a bit if they ever want to move past seeing the world through Sheldon's eyes.
P.S. I specifically watched this show because, when you tell people you work in physics, BBT is the first thing they think of. If there's a TV show specifically about your profession it's surprisingly awkward to be completely ignorant of it!
I guess it is a counter-reaction to Einstein not getting more than one Nobel prize for all he did.
Back then, experimental physics was perceived as the 'real' physics, and guys like Einstein were 'mathematicians' meddling with physics.
Source: Einstein and Feynman biographies.
Back then, experimental physics was perceived as the 'real' physics, and guys like Einstein were 'mathematicians' meddling with physics.
Source: Einstein and Feynman biographies.
About the only science I have liked/found interesting in the show was the time they bounced a modulated laser off the reflector left on the moon.
So far as funny? Can't get enough of the monkey + cigarette jokes.
So far as funny? Can't get enough of the monkey + cigarette jokes.
What baffles me is that David Salzberg is a professor works tirelessly to get the science correct on BBT, and yet this gentleman was unable to correct the incredible, mind-bogglingly bad episode "The Tenure Turbulence", where every possible aspect of tenure appears to come from some alternate universe unrelated to Earth. This episode is so far beyond wrong I don't know where to start. David knows how tenure works: indeed he might be the only person working for the show who does (besides maybe Bialik). Why wouldn't they consult him?
There's a great big whopping difference between when your consultant says "change what's written on that board in the background" and "change the whole plot of the episode, that's not how the world works".
I'm sure he told them, I'm sure they know; but the whole plot turned on it.
Sometimes when you realize that superman flying around in space is impossible from a thermodynamic perspective no matter how "super" he is, you just gotta shrug and say "dude, he's superman".
I'm sure he told them, I'm sure they know; but the whole plot turned on it.
Sometimes when you realize that superman flying around in space is impossible from a thermodynamic perspective no matter how "super" he is, you just gotta shrug and say "dude, he's superman".
I thought the same of the hacking scenes in Swordfish... then I realised that the movie isn't meant for me. It was meant for a mainstream audience that has no idea what hacking is - and instead they get a visual representation of 'hard, technical'. I imagine the same thing goes with that episode - I haven't seen it, but I'm guessing that tenure was just used as a mere plot device rather than a topic to explore.
> I thought the same of the hacking scenes in Swordfish... then I realised that the movie isn't meant for me.
No, I get that. But using this logic, BBT shouldn't be making any attempt to get the physics right either. After all, it's not a show for physicists.
Why the inconsistency?
No, I get that. But using this logic, BBT shouldn't be making any attempt to get the physics right either. After all, it's not a show for physicists.
Why the inconsistency?
Someone elsewhere in the thread mentions that the whiteboards are just background scenery. The sitcom itself is pretty formulaic, written by the same writers as every other such sitcom. Changing the scenery is much easier, as opposed to changing how these writers understand their material, I guess.
But he doesn't just consult on the whiteboards. He consults on many aspects of the show that touches on science, and that importantly includes scripts.
Relax guys and gals. This show, much like most everything you see on TV and in the movies, is a caricature. It is not reality.
The formula is simple: Turn your brain down to "slow" and have a good time. Don't take any of it seriously. It's not real. It's television.
Some of the writing is hilariously funny. I have worked with people that exhibited some of these characteristics (not all). Some were great engineers but had the social skills of a brick. Most are nothing like these characters. They have varied interests and really full and active personal and family lives outside of work.
The formula is simple: Turn your brain down to "slow" and have a good time. Don't take any of it seriously. It's not real. It's television.
Some of the writing is hilariously funny. I have worked with people that exhibited some of these characteristics (not all). Some were great engineers but had the social skills of a brick. Most are nothing like these characters. They have varied interests and really full and active personal and family lives outside of work.
My favorite nerdy character is Walter "I'm in the http://www.classicempire.com business" White.
I watched most of Breaking Bad for the first time this summer (all but the final eight episodes), and while I really like Walt at the beginning, these last few episodes (really starting with Say My Name, the second to last episode in the first half of season five) my like started to wane. I still like the character, but not as much...
I think Abed Nadir from Community is more my type of nerd. Probably because I find the character similar to myself.
I think Abed Nadir from Community is more my type of nerd. Probably because I find the character similar to myself.
I enjoyed seasons 1-5, but season 6 is just rehashing the same old stuff. Past time for the show to hang up.
The show Numb3rs had a similar thing, mathematicians to check accuracy. :)
I'm always surprised this show is popular among the user base here. From what I've seen it's aimed at 14 year old girls who think they are ``nerdy'' because they wear glasses and have a Nintendo t-shirt. Bazinga!
This essay was quite popular a while back and summarizes all this and more, quite well I think: http://butmyopinionisright.tumblr.com/post/31079561065/the-p...
Edit: Interesting to see many of you have a completely opposite take on these characters. That's fine with me, as long as we don't have to watch BBT if I'm over at your place. :)
Edit 2: Can we at least agree that laugh tracks are awful, even on otherwise-phenomenal shows (Seinfeld)?