H1B workers are not indentured servants(medium.com)
medium.com
H1B workers are not indentured servants
https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/9daa6ee0eb81
11 comments
As part of the H1 filing process, employers are required to post an LCA (Labor Condition Application) at the workplace. This is an official-looking document typically stuck on a pinboard around the workarea. Amongst other things, this explicitly lists the prevailing wage/salary at which the H1 is hired. So, in effect there is nothing hidden from other employees or the employee being hired. I have second hand knowledge that LCA placement is in fact audited. In any case, LCA placement has been enforced by the legal department in my last couple of workplaces.
>About half of all H1B holders come from India alone.
Yes, that is true and I'm not denying that. My point is to clarify misconceptions about the H1 Visa program itself being legal slave labor and focusing on highlighting the subtleties that give it this perception.
>About half of all H1B holders come from India alone.
Yes, that is true and I'm not denying that. My point is to clarify misconceptions about the H1 Visa program itself being legal slave labor and focusing on highlighting the subtleties that give it this perception.
So, in effect there is nothing hidden from other employees or the employee being hired.
That's not particularly helpful - the only people who see it have an economic incentive to not rock the boat.
The thing to remember about H1B visas is that there are tons of exceptions to the "slave labor" situation. No one sensible believes that every single H1B visa holder is a pawn to keep US wages below fair-market pricing. The problem is that a large number, probably a majority, of them are. Anecdotal contradictions don't disprove the thesis.
That's not particularly helpful - the only people who see it have an economic incentive to not rock the boat.
The thing to remember about H1B visas is that there are tons of exceptions to the "slave labor" situation. No one sensible believes that every single H1B visa holder is a pawn to keep US wages below fair-market pricing. The problem is that a large number, probably a majority, of them are. Anecdotal contradictions don't disprove the thesis.
> the only people who see it have an economic incentive to not rock the boat
You're assuming that the employee themselves don't have a reason to rock the boat if their filing paperwork lists a salary higher than their effective salary? As an H1 whose paperwork lists a salary higher than my effective salary, there's nothing that stops me from realizing that I'm underpaid and switching employers when convenient.
You're assuming that the employee themselves don't have a reason to rock the boat if their filing paperwork lists a salary higher than their effective salary? As an H1 whose paperwork lists a salary higher than my effective salary, there's nothing that stops me from realizing that I'm underpaid and switching employers when convenient.
As an H1 whose paperwork lists a salary higher than my effective salary, there's nothing that stops me from realizing that I'm underpaid and switching employers when convenient.
Do I really need to point out that in the context of enforcement actions, that means nothing?
Do I really need to point out that in the context of enforcement actions, that means nothing?
I guess we're addressing two different issues. You're focusing on enforcement to address the abuse of the H1 program, whereas I'm taking the H1 worker perspective and trying to dispel the notion of indentured servitude.
>As part of the H1 filing process, employers are required to post an LCA
As someone who works in immigration, the LCA is almost never posted. And if the prevailing wage is too high, they will just apply under a different SOC category and job title. There are no real ways for USCIS to enforce these rules.
As someone who works in immigration, the LCA is almost never posted. And if the prevailing wage is too high, they will just apply under a different SOC category and job title. There are no real ways for USCIS to enforce these rules.
Yeah, I remember finding it very interesting the first time I saw one of those postings, because the salary on the form was about 1/3 my salary at the time, and lower than my starting salary when I held the lowest-ranking programming position at the company as a new college grad. It seemed to be fairly clear evidence of abuse.
Here's an explanation of how that works - it is a fairly long read that boils down to a bait-and-switch on the job classification.
http://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know-...
http://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know-...
The prevailing wage concept is also ridiculous. Wages should go up when labor is scarce.
Or tech companies (big ones at least) can just open development centers in countries with lower cost talent like India, China, and the Philippines. That is already happening; getting rid of H1Bs would just accelerate the process and the high-end workers that would otherwise come to the states would still be working, they would just no longer be paying American taxes.
That's probably true. Instead of getting rid of H1B's we need to fast-track them to green-cards independent of employer. One thing I've not seen mentioned here is that green-card applications require the co-operation of the employer. The big indian body-shops that hire the most H1B's barely submit any green-card applications at all (e.g. in 2012 Tata (TCS) did 4 out of 7500 H1B visas, Wipro only did 30 out of 4300) and even those who are submitted face very long lead times.
http://www.epi.org/blog/top-10-h1b-guestworker-offshore-outs...
http://www.epi.org/blog/top-10-h1b-guestworker-offshore-outs...
That sounds reasonable. Let's turn on the spigot but get company sponsorship out of the way (it works like this in Oz). The problem is evaluating perspective highly-skilled immigrants without taking into account direct company demand.
> About half of all H1B holders come from India alone.
Many of the Indian body shops seem to give the H1B program a bad name, but tech companies like Microsoft and Google really do use H1's correctly and as intended, in my opinion; e.g. no discrimination in salaries and maximum leverage of domestic talent where possible.
Many of the Indian body shops seem to give the H1B program a bad name, but tech companies like Microsoft and Google really do use H1's correctly and as intended, in my opinion; e.g. no discrimination in salaries and maximum leverage of domestic talent where possible.
Microsoft hires thousands of workers from the H1B body shops (infosys, tata, etc). Half of Microsoft's workforce is "dash trash" contingent staff, employed by those terrible shops.
Perhaps, I'm not sure as I don't meet many vendors in Redmond. I know that we have a lot of blue badges with H1s and you couldn't tell the difference (well, the American will speak with an American accent).
I'm actually stationed in China, so our body shopping tends to be local, where ironically, I (an American) am the one on the working visa.
I'm actually stationed in China, so our body shopping tends to be local, where ironically, I (an American) am the one on the working visa.
Yes, that seems to be the case. The problem is that the majority of H1B visas go to those body-shops. The top ten H1B employers are all such body-shops.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/04/03/176134...
http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/04/03/176134...
It's not possible that Microsoft and google are using h1bs correctly. Anyone who says there is simply no US person skilled enough to fill a position is lying through their teeth.
My computer science class at a top state university was like 70% foreign in the mid 90s; today it's much worse. The American talent pipeline is just not full enough to satisfy demand. Hiring ANY programmer that meets our requirements is difficult enough without having to worry about where their citizenship is.
Recruiter here, and I can't even count how many candidates I've had contact me looking for a new job (I recruit engineers) at the very moment they received their green card. There are many consulting companies that do mostly 'body shop' work that are more than willing to hire H-1 holders and draw out the green card process in order to keep the employee and the very large margins they can charge.
Some of these companies actually have the H-1 employee look for their own assignments in addition to doing the work. So they are essentially independent consultants, taking maybe 50% of their bill rate home over several years. The good news is that when they do jump to a new employer with a green card in hand, they often get massive raises. The bad news is they never make up for those lower wages paid to them over several years.
Most of those I refer to are from India and China as the author states, which in tech does account for a significant amount of people.
I would certainly classify the companies that clearly prey on these H-1 hires as being mostly responsible for the prevailing 'indentured servant' tag. It's shameful.
Some of these companies actually have the H-1 employee look for their own assignments in addition to doing the work. So they are essentially independent consultants, taking maybe 50% of their bill rate home over several years. The good news is that when they do jump to a new employer with a green card in hand, they often get massive raises. The bad news is they never make up for those lower wages paid to them over several years.
Most of those I refer to are from India and China as the author states, which in tech does account for a significant amount of people.
I would certainly classify the companies that clearly prey on these H-1 hires as being mostly responsible for the prevailing 'indentured servant' tag. It's shameful.
Why is it that you guys are underpaid then, in comparison to domestic labor. Certainly you might argue that domestic labor is "overpaid," but then one must consider our (domestic and foreign origin) contributions to the bottom line and our resulting reward.
In my opinion if you can do as well or better than I, why are you not better recompensed? We are your brothers and sisters all over the world, and we all deserve an equitable share relative to our contributions to the bottom line.
In my opinion if you can do as well or better than I, why are you not better recompensed? We are your brothers and sisters all over the world, and we all deserve an equitable share relative to our contributions to the bottom line.
I am an Indian. I'll let you in on a (open?) secret because I have nothing to lose and I am no part of it. All the stuff I am going to tell you is from my personal experience with my friends, and their stories.
Here's how these body shops work:
1. Find a guy/gal who is a reasonable match for the job and place him/her in it. No problem with that.
2. The employee may not have prior experience in the field he claims he has in his resume. The body shops know this. They sometimes fix your resume for you.
3. If the body shops are not confident in you, they might arrange for a proxy to interview in your place for a "charge". Most of the times in consulting, a phone interview usually suffices.
4. Some (good)body shops split the wage 80(for the employee)/20(for the employer). In case they did proxy someone in for you, they might divide it more evenly in their favor.
5. The body shops may have someone in the said company where he is placing their candidate and they may receive kickbacks(few dollars/head/hour).
6. Usually the body shops are scum of the earth; if you think car dealers are the worst, think again. They will lie,beg,steal to make more money off of you in anyways they can.
7. And finally to come to your point, why H-1s are underpaid; In my experience they are not underpaid at all. They usually make twice of what I make(and I am a programmer in SV). It is just that they lie that it seems low. Many a time the body shop pays the employee about 50% in income as per-diem. All in all, it is not uncommon that they make 200k a year. However, remember that body shops are the worst of the worst people and they may steal your money and not pay for months on end sometimes. Depends on how desperate you are.
Here's how these body shops work:
1. Find a guy/gal who is a reasonable match for the job and place him/her in it. No problem with that.
2. The employee may not have prior experience in the field he claims he has in his resume. The body shops know this. They sometimes fix your resume for you.
3. If the body shops are not confident in you, they might arrange for a proxy to interview in your place for a "charge". Most of the times in consulting, a phone interview usually suffices.
4. Some (good)body shops split the wage 80(for the employee)/20(for the employer). In case they did proxy someone in for you, they might divide it more evenly in their favor.
5. The body shops may have someone in the said company where he is placing their candidate and they may receive kickbacks(few dollars/head/hour).
6. Usually the body shops are scum of the earth; if you think car dealers are the worst, think again. They will lie,beg,steal to make more money off of you in anyways they can.
7. And finally to come to your point, why H-1s are underpaid; In my experience they are not underpaid at all. They usually make twice of what I make(and I am a programmer in SV). It is just that they lie that it seems low. Many a time the body shop pays the employee about 50% in income as per-diem. All in all, it is not uncommon that they make 200k a year. However, remember that body shops are the worst of the worst people and they may steal your money and not pay for months on end sometimes. Depends on how desperate you are.
Cognizant, Infosys, GlobalLogic, Symphony, TCS...
I'm certainly not underpaid. I was among the top 1% of our graduating CS class in a top 10 US university. And I'm probably the highest paid among our classmates now. That being said, I do agree that H-1Bs increase supply and drive down salaries (which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing for the tech industry. US tech companies now have a vast, accessible talent pool to choose from). And also agree with the fact that there are some fraudulent consulting companies exploiting the system.
If you went to a US university, are you on an H-1 at this point or one of the other visas (F-1 IIRC?)? The reason I ask is my understanding of the visas for graduates of US programs is that there is no cost or real burden on the employer for a few years, which is much different than an H-1 that might have expectations of GC processing.
I started on a H-1 right after school (where I was on an F-1) and my GC was filed within the first month of my joining msft.
But you're right, people on F-1 can stay on something called OPT for 2 yrs after graduating whilst working. But my employer decided against that because not only is it a pain in the ass to work with that, there's no guarantee that you'll have enough H-1s left 2 yrs down the road.
But you're right, people on F-1 can stay on something called OPT for 2 yrs after graduating whilst working. But my employer decided against that because not only is it a pain in the ass to work with that, there's no guarantee that you'll have enough H-1s left 2 yrs down the road.
> Why is it that you guys are underpaid then
I believe I did give reasons in the post. Let me know if I wasn't clear enough on a specific point.
I believe I did give reasons in the post. Let me know if I wasn't clear enough on a specific point.
Only PhD's and equivalents can get green cards in 1-2 years, it takes much longer for everyone else regardless of country of origin. As far as H1's having job options to pick from, the difference between Large Corp 1 and Large Corp 2 is small enough not to matter. Are small tech firms interested in foreign workers as much as their bigger brothers are?
>Only PhD's and equivalents can get green cards in 1-2 years
Not true. The EB-2 category (Masters Degree/5+ years of experience) has no waiting period as long as you're not from a handful of countries. The category is "current", which is to say that the time taken to get a GC in this category is going to be pretty much the time taken to file/process paperwork + a 180 day mandated period. This is what totals up to 1-1.5 years.
> Are small tech firms interested in foreign workers as much as their bigger brothers are
I can't speak for all companies, but in the Bay area, I've had offers from more than one 20-100 person startups with the assurance of H1/GC filings.
Not true. The EB-2 category (Masters Degree/5+ years of experience) has no waiting period as long as you're not from a handful of countries. The category is "current", which is to say that the time taken to get a GC in this category is going to be pretty much the time taken to file/process paperwork + a 180 day mandated period. This is what totals up to 1-1.5 years.
> Are small tech firms interested in foreign workers as much as their bigger brothers are
I can't speak for all companies, but in the Bay area, I've had offers from more than one 20-100 person startups with the assurance of H1/GC filings.
> The EB-2 category (Masters Degree/5+ years of experience) has no waiting period as long as you're not from a handful of countries
Which handful, because of the way the system works, are (pretty much by definition) the ones where most qualified and sponsored applicants come from, since the waiting lists are simply the result of the degree to which fully qualified (including sponsored) applicants in the category from the country exceed the by-country limits for the category.
Which handful, because of the way the system works, are (pretty much by definition) the ones where most qualified and sponsored applicants come from, since the waiting lists are simply the result of the degree to which fully qualified (including sponsored) applicants in the category from the country exceed the by-country limits for the category.
China, India, Mexico, Philippines.[1]
The system doesn't explicitly discriminate against "talented" countries, it just stacks the odds against highly populated countries since there is a per-country cap on the number of GCs issued.
[1]http://travel.state.gov/visa/bulletin/bulletin_6062.html
The system doesn't explicitly discriminate against "talented" countries, it just stacks the odds against highly populated countries since there is a per-country cap on the number of GCs issued.
[1]http://travel.state.gov/visa/bulletin/bulletin_6062.html
> The system doesn't explicitly discriminate against "talented" countries, it just stacks the odds against highly populated countries since there is a per-country cap on the number of GCs issued.
It stacks the odds against countries with a large number of qualified applicants in any category (since the caps are per category.) Population plays a role, but only because it influences representation in the category (which is a big factor for India and China), but so does interest level (which is a big factor for Mexico and the Phillipines, which are particularly impacted for family-based immigration as well as employment-based immigration categories.)
It stacks the odds against countries with a large number of qualified applicants in any category (since the caps are per category.) Population plays a role, but only because it influences representation in the category (which is a big factor for India and China), but so does interest level (which is a big factor for Mexico and the Phillipines, which are particularly impacted for family-based immigration as well as employment-based immigration categories.)
Agreed
> I can't speak for all companies, but in the Bay area, I've had offers from more than one 20-100 person startups with the assurance of H1/GC filings.
That's really cool to hear, wouldn't have expected.
That's really cool to hear, wouldn't have expected.
In practice I've seen this easily take people 3-4 years due to how long it takes to process this paperwork on the govt end.
I can vouch from experience for this one, as a UK citizen with two Masters degrees my green card took under 18 months total.
"They have a smaller job pool to choose from, but in the tech industry (context of most HN discussions about H1s), there really isn’t a shortage of employers willing to file."
To quantify, on DeveloperAuction we've found that Engineers on H1B's get an average of 32% fewer job opportunities than citizens/green card holders.
To quantify, on DeveloperAuction we've found that Engineers on H1B's get an average of 32% fewer job opportunities than citizens/green card holders.
> "H1 workers who’re not citizens of these handful of sucks-to-be-born-here countries can get Green Cards within 1-2 years and enjoy unfettered job mobility."
Yes, and this still results in 1-2 years of indentured servitude. As the author defines at the very beginning of the blog post:
> "inden′tured serv′ant: A person who is bound to work for another for a specified period of time."
There is a substantial period of time - longer for some, shorter for others, where your employer has your entire life in a stranglehold and can throw you under the bus at a moment's notice. I'm not sure how that doesn't qualify as indentured servitude?
Yes, and this still results in 1-2 years of indentured servitude. As the author defines at the very beginning of the blog post:
> "inden′tured serv′ant: A person who is bound to work for another for a specified period of time."
There is a substantial period of time - longer for some, shorter for others, where your employer has your entire life in a stranglehold and can throw you under the bus at a moment's notice. I'm not sure how that doesn't qualify as indentured servitude?
Because as I clarify in the post, no H-1 is BOUND to work for their employer. They are free to quit and go back home, or change employers. Yes, the employer has an advantage of being in a position where he can kill your American Dream, but H-1 workers change jobs ALL the time.
And most indentured servitude arrangements around the world aren't bound to their employers either - but there are other highly coercive forces at play that prevent people from leaving.
Imagine holding someone's family hostage in exchange for them doing something - while they are technically free to do whatever the hell they want, the reality of it is that they are, for all practical intents and purposes, bound to your will.
This is, at the end of the day, somewhat of a gray area. How much influence do you need over someone's life before you become a coercive force? IMO the ability to completely unravel your life - to force you to suddenly move (within days!), to eject you from your resident country, etc, clearly falls under this umbrella.
H-1Bs change jobs all the time. I've done it myself. But once the green card is in the works, the indentured servitude begins. So perhaps more accurately, H-1Bs aren't indentured servants, but a very large subset of them (i.e., anyone after a GC) are.
Imagine holding someone's family hostage in exchange for them doing something - while they are technically free to do whatever the hell they want, the reality of it is that they are, for all practical intents and purposes, bound to your will.
This is, at the end of the day, somewhat of a gray area. How much influence do you need over someone's life before you become a coercive force? IMO the ability to completely unravel your life - to force you to suddenly move (within days!), to eject you from your resident country, etc, clearly falls under this umbrella.
H-1Bs change jobs all the time. I've done it myself. But once the green card is in the works, the indentured servitude begins. So perhaps more accurately, H-1Bs aren't indentured servants, but a very large subset of them (i.e., anyone after a GC) are.
The author is pretty accurate. The disadvantageous position for H1 holders is that they depend on the employer to stay in the US.
I also know of low wage consultants being hired by companies and they never fill in the top spots or even the mid level ones. The best jobs are always competitive regardless of how many cheap consultants are in the market. And every low-wage consultant wants to make more money given the chance and ability. If anyone is complaining that a low end job is being taken by a low wage consultant, I'd say aim higher.
I also know of low wage consultants being hired by companies and they never fill in the top spots or even the mid level ones. The best jobs are always competitive regardless of how many cheap consultants are in the market. And every low-wage consultant wants to make more money given the chance and ability. If anyone is complaining that a low end job is being taken by a low wage consultant, I'd say aim higher.
As a Canadian citizen who worked in California on a H1B I can state that the article's claim that people like me (i.e., not Indian or Chinese) get their green cards is categorically false.
For starters, the preliminary paperwork, even if your employer starts the process immediately--and many don't--can take well over a year. In my case I was waiting 15 months before I gave up and relocated to Australia.
For starters, the preliminary paperwork, even if your employer starts the process immediately--and many don't--can take well over a year. In my case I was waiting 15 months before I gave up and relocated to Australia.
Speaking from personal experience, an immediate GC filing is something that I have negotiated as a sine qua non for changing jobs. I understand that H1s in other professions may not have the leverage to negotiate this, but the current demand for software developers makes this a no-brainer at the negotiating table.
As for the time taken, my personal experience has been that PERM takes about 6 months. After that I-140 + I-485 can be concurrently filed if your Priority date is current. They can take another 6 months to get approved. After that there is a mandatory 180 day period before you can switch jobs. Total average case time should be around 1.5 years. This assumes that your application is not audited and your immigration lawyers are not backlogged. YMMV.
As for the time taken, my personal experience has been that PERM takes about 6 months. After that I-140 + I-485 can be concurrently filed if your Priority date is current. They can take another 6 months to get approved. After that there is a mandatory 180 day period before you can switch jobs. Total average case time should be around 1.5 years. This assumes that your application is not audited and your immigration lawyers are not backlogged. YMMV.
"After that there is a mandatory 180 day period before you can switch jobs."
This is false. There's a lot of misinformation on the internet about this. Speak to an immigration attorney and you will discover there's no mandatory period whatsoever.
See also: Rights and Responsibilities of a Green Card Holder (Permanent Resident)
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b...
This is false. There's a lot of misinformation on the internet about this. Speak to an immigration attorney and you will discover there's no mandatory period whatsoever.
See also: Rights and Responsibilities of a Green Card Holder (Permanent Resident)
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b...
According to AC21[1] 106(c)
", the approval of a Form I-140 employment-based (EB) immigrant petition shall remain valid when an alien changes jobs or employers, if: • A Form I-485, Application to Adjust Status, on the basis of the EB immigrant petition has been filed and remained un-adjudicated for 180 days or more; and • The new job is in the same or similar occupational classification as the job for which the petition was filed. "
[1]Policy and Procedural Memoranda on the American Competitiveness in the Twenty-First Century Act of 2000 (AC21)
http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/Laws/Memoranda/Static_Files_Memor...
", the approval of a Form I-140 employment-based (EB) immigrant petition shall remain valid when an alien changes jobs or employers, if: • A Form I-485, Application to Adjust Status, on the basis of the EB immigrant petition has been filed and remained un-adjudicated for 180 days or more; and • The new job is in the same or similar occupational classification as the job for which the petition was filed. "
[1]Policy and Procedural Memoranda on the American Competitiveness in the Twenty-First Century Act of 2000 (AC21)
http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/Laws/Memoranda/Static_Files_Memor...
[deleted]
"4. H1 workers who’re not citizens of these handful of
sucks-to-be-born-here countries can get Green Cards within
1-2 years and enjoy unfettered job mobility."
http://travel.state.gov/visa/bulletin/bulletin_6062.html
If you fit in the second employment related priority categorie (EB-2) and aren't from China or India your visa process has no backlog. EB-2 status is granted to people with Masters degrees or Bachelors + 5 years experience.
If you fit in the second employment related priority categorie (EB-2) and aren't from China or India your visa process has no backlog. EB-2 status is granted to people with Masters degrees or Bachelors + 5 years experience.
See the August 2013 Visa Bulletin [1] for Employment Based priority dates.
[1] http://travel.state.gov/visa/bulletin/bulletin_6028.html
[1] http://travel.state.gov/visa/bulletin/bulletin_6028.html
It seems like this article is saying "H1B workers are not LITERALLY indentured servants, but here's a ton of reasons they are at a huge disadvantage." So basically the article is railing against the semantics of an exaggerated expression people use to highlight a problem everyone acknowledges exists.
> railing against the semantics of an exaggerated expression
I'm arguing that those exaggerated expressions seem to be in use so much lately that its misleading people into believing false information about the H1 program and its evils. I would really hope that none of what I clarified needed to be clarified and was common knowledge already. But despite HN being a fairly knowledgable crowd, the extent of the discussion here suggests otherwise.
I'm arguing that those exaggerated expressions seem to be in use so much lately that its misleading people into believing false information about the H1 program and its evils. I would really hope that none of what I clarified needed to be clarified and was common knowledge already. But despite HN being a fairly knowledgable crowd, the extent of the discussion here suggests otherwise.
[deleted]
That statement is true, but meaningless. Never in the history of the H1B visa program has there been any budget allocated to enforcing those regulations. I am not omniscient, but I am only aware of two cases of prevailing-wage enforcement actions over the last 15+ years and they both involved someone making a huge stink because they found out that the job they were denied went to an H1B for a much lower salary.
The common misconception of being under an obligation to work for X number of years for an employer comes from the fact that H1 workers from a handful of countries (India, China, Mexico etc.)
It may be a handful of countries, but what matters is how many visa holders come from those countries. About half of all H1B holders come from India alone.
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-01-16/news...