Senic (YC S13) builds a laser distance meter for smartphones(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
Senic (YC S13) builds a laser distance meter for smartphones
http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/09/senic-wants-to-revolutionize-measurement-starting-with-a-smartphone-connected-laser-distance-meter/
15 comments
These devices do their measurement in a completely different way.
Laser distance meters are essentially tiny radar units operating with light instead of radio waves (lidar). With a pulse radar, you need the pulse itself to be of extremely short duration, especially when you're measuring short distances. You need to have stopped transmitting by the time you begin receiving the reflection to have any hope of actually finding the reflection (because the return "sounds" exactly like what you're transmitting). In order to reliably detect a short unmodulated pulse, the transmitted power generally has to be pretty high so that the reflection is loud enough that you don't miss it.
Short pulses and high power are generally hard to do with cheap semiconductor devices (big radar pulse generators tend to use vacuum tubes and exotic and expensive hardware).
A better approach for lower power devices is to modulate the carrier wave itself and then transmit a longer, lower power pulse. One way to do this is to transmit a "chirp" (a transmission that starts at a low frequency and ramps up to a high frequency). When you receive the radar return, you'll start receiving the initial low frequency while the transmitter has moved on to transmitting a higher frequency. You can then use this frequency difference and the chirp rate to compute the time of flight and therefore the distance. This also has an added advantage of allowing you to integrate the received signal for a much longer period of time, so it tends to be a lot less noisy and error prone than a pulse radar.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMCW#Modulated_continuous-wave
Laser distance meters are essentially tiny radar units operating with light instead of radio waves (lidar). With a pulse radar, you need the pulse itself to be of extremely short duration, especially when you're measuring short distances. You need to have stopped transmitting by the time you begin receiving the reflection to have any hope of actually finding the reflection (because the return "sounds" exactly like what you're transmitting). In order to reliably detect a short unmodulated pulse, the transmitted power generally has to be pretty high so that the reflection is loud enough that you don't miss it.
Short pulses and high power are generally hard to do with cheap semiconductor devices (big radar pulse generators tend to use vacuum tubes and exotic and expensive hardware).
A better approach for lower power devices is to modulate the carrier wave itself and then transmit a longer, lower power pulse. One way to do this is to transmit a "chirp" (a transmission that starts at a low frequency and ramps up to a high frequency). When you receive the radar return, you'll start receiving the initial low frequency while the transmitter has moved on to transmitting a higher frequency. You can then use this frequency difference and the chirp rate to compute the time of flight and therefore the distance. This also has an added advantage of allowing you to integrate the received signal for a much longer period of time, so it tends to be a lot less noisy and error prone than a pulse radar.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMCW#Modulated_continuous-wave
You don't need a full processor for time of flight just a few transistors which can cheaply operate at ~10GHz. Speed of light / 10ghz = 3cm, but your talking round trip timings so ~1.5 cm is possible.
Multiple frequency phase-shift or Interferometry allows you to do even better.
Multiple frequency phase-shift or Interferometry allows you to do even better.
It gets much more precise than that, it's the phase that matters not the time. Laser interferometers routinely measure microns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferometry
If they're not going for that kind of precision and range they could simply use ultrasound instead of a laser.
Range on this thing is impressive and precision is too: accurate up to 0.075 ", though they don't specify at what range that precision is still attainable. Typically with increased range on cheap devices you'll get an increase in absolute error so a percentage of the absolute distance would be expected. Maybe that's due to this being a laser device.
Interesting application of tech, a bluetooth enabled range finder could really be useful, especially for realtors that have to measure up a whole bunch of houses on a typical day and that need to keep track of what they measured.
Even more useful if the app would record audio along with the measurements made for later transcription.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferometry
If they're not going for that kind of precision and range they could simply use ultrasound instead of a laser.
Range on this thing is impressive and precision is too: accurate up to 0.075 ", though they don't specify at what range that precision is still attainable. Typically with increased range on cheap devices you'll get an increase in absolute error so a percentage of the absolute distance would be expected. Maybe that's due to this being a laser device.
Interesting application of tech, a bluetooth enabled range finder could really be useful, especially for realtors that have to measure up a whole bunch of houses on a typical day and that need to keep track of what they measured.
Even more useful if the app would record audio along with the measurements made for later transcription.
Very good point -- you'd have these fast, expensive transistors (however they are packaged or not packaged) cache their data, then transfer it back to a slower, cheaper, main microprocessor, which would be doing the rest of the device's work.
Do you know where these 10 GHz transistors can be found?
Do you know where these 10 GHz transistors can be found?
Laser rangefinders don't switch the light source at 10GHz. They "chop" the laser on-off at (say) 10kHz. The measure the difference between the reference (onboard) and the return using (typically) a PLL that can measure time differences down to picoseconds (these are usually used in high-frequency RF equipment). Using a microcontroller counter would be too slow.
Cheaper LRF's can use triangulation with a known baseline. That's how Neato robotic managed their $10 spinning version for the vacuum: http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/12/20/ultra-low-cost-laser-r...
To wit... I like to disassemble laser rangefinders!
http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/01/04/velodyne-hdl-64e-laser...
http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/02/14/omron-sti-optoshield-o...
http://www.hizook.com/blog/2008/12/15/sick-laser-rangefinder...
Cheaper LRF's can use triangulation with a known baseline. That's how Neato robotic managed their $10 spinning version for the vacuum: http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/12/20/ultra-low-cost-laser-r...
To wit... I like to disassemble laser rangefinders!
http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/01/04/velodyne-hdl-64e-laser...
http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/02/14/omron-sti-optoshield-o...
http://www.hizook.com/blog/2008/12/15/sick-laser-rangefinder...
Wow, amazing!
For shorter distances, time-of-flight is not typically used. There's surprisingly little documentation about how these things work online though.
From http://ptd.leica-geosystems.com/en/Measuring-Techniques_4939...
"The laser diode emits light pulses with a defined wavelength and pulse repetition frequency. Due to the runtime difference between the internal reference path and the external measurement path, the light pulses, reflected on a target and received from the Leica DISTO™, have experienced a phase shift in relation to the light pulses received through the internal reference path. That phase difference between those two signals is proportional to the distance between instrument and target."
From http://ptd.leica-geosystems.com/en/Measuring-Techniques_4939...
"The laser diode emits light pulses with a defined wavelength and pulse repetition frequency. Due to the runtime difference between the internal reference path and the external measurement path, the light pulses, reflected on a target and received from the Leica DISTO™, have experienced a phase shift in relation to the light pulses received through the internal reference path. That phase difference between those two signals is proportional to the distance between instrument and target."
I'm going to preface this by saying this meter looks great and I realize that it's much easier to critique than encourage.
Overall, I think it's an interesting implementation, but I felt the tone of the video did not match the nature of the product. The video feels produced towards something with more breadth and importance than essentially a contractor tool. Not that I'm downplaying what Senic built, but the presentation gives off "toddler in a business suit" aesthetic.
Having said that, the implementation looks great.
Overall, I think it's an interesting implementation, but I felt the tone of the video did not match the nature of the product. The video feels produced towards something with more breadth and importance than essentially a contractor tool. Not that I'm downplaying what Senic built, but the presentation gives off "toddler in a business suit" aesthetic.
Having said that, the implementation looks great.
But that's advertising in a nutshell right? They're not using disinformation, they're simply setting a tone for how they wan't their company to be viewed. Coca-Cola makes sugar water, Kleenex makes tissue. But you don't push many units by downplaying your product.
I think the video does a great job of making them seem to take their product seriously. If enough people walk away with a similar impression, it will allow the company to expand within the market and be taken seriously in their new endeavors as well.
I think the video does a great job of making them seem to take their product seriously. If enough people walk away with a similar impression, it will allow the company to expand within the market and be taken seriously in their new endeavors as well.
Halfway true. Setting the tone for how they want their company to be viewed is the technique that 500 pound gorillas like Coca-Cola and Microsoft use. It's the atillery barrage approach to selling, and works well if your product is in store everywhere. But in all honesty, tell me how often you've walked into a store and thought to yourself "I feel young and hip today, let me buy some coke".
The thing is, these guy's aren't 500 pound gorillas. I suspect even with funding, they're struggling to make ends meet. That's the point at which they should be using more targeted advertising to get their product out.
For example, someone is looking for measuring tape on Google via their iPhone. That is their ideal customer. Now give them an ad to click on and sell them on your product, get them to order one. They've just aquired a customer at the fraction of the cost they would have in conventional media.
I see startups on here all the time that try to revolutionize an industry by doing things differently, but they'll take over their advertising techniques down to the detail, advertising techniques which are completely unsuited for a company at their position.
The thing is, these guy's aren't 500 pound gorillas. I suspect even with funding, they're struggling to make ends meet. That's the point at which they should be using more targeted advertising to get their product out.
For example, someone is looking for measuring tape on Google via their iPhone. That is their ideal customer. Now give them an ad to click on and sell them on your product, get them to order one. They've just aquired a customer at the fraction of the cost they would have in conventional media.
I see startups on here all the time that try to revolutionize an industry by doing things differently, but they'll take over their advertising techniques down to the detail, advertising techniques which are completely unsuited for a company at their position.
Actually that is a weird ads. It seems targeted at 'us', i.e. tech guys mostly.
Looking at the spec, it seems that this tool has all the necessary bits inside to compete with Leica tools. Yet the ads is very silent on all that.
IMO I think they neglected the software side when designing their gismo ( by mistake or by strategy ). Now they hype it up with tech guys, so that one of us will eventually create a few killer apps for their hardware so they can compete against Leica.
99$ for a bluetooth enabled, fully featured laser measurer but with a SDK instead of great interface ? Well I guess it is working, count me in.
Looking at the spec, it seems that this tool has all the necessary bits inside to compete with Leica tools. Yet the ads is very silent on all that.
IMO I think they neglected the software side when designing their gismo ( by mistake or by strategy ). Now they hype it up with tech guys, so that one of us will eventually create a few killer apps for their hardware so they can compete against Leica.
99$ for a bluetooth enabled, fully featured laser measurer but with a SDK instead of great interface ? Well I guess it is working, count me in.
I'm biased, as I know the team personally, but they didn't neglect the software side. A majority of the team are software engineers, and hackability is very much a part of their design. So definitely, buy one (or more) and make some killer apps!
$99 is ~ half the price of the cheapest leica that I can find on Amazon. For me, thats a great deal. Not to mention the fact that it can theoretically plug right into a drafting application automatically. Count me in.
I agree with your comment, although I'd replace "toddler" with "college kid".
That said, I found it refreshing and pleasant to watch and charming in its innocence and the depth of its ambition.
That said, I found it refreshing and pleasant to watch and charming in its innocence and the depth of its ambition.
I wasn't trying to liken the founder to a toddler, I was just trying to paint a mental picture. "College kid in a business suit" isn't very descriptive :)
I think Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE)[0]is really cool and has the possibility to enable many many cool devices. The low power requirements allow devices to run for weeks on a button cell, and the fact that it uses the same hardware as the original bluetooth implementation mean devices only need software updates to enable it. The latest iPhones have BLE support, and google added BLE support in android 4.3[1].
BLE is already used in devices like the Pebble Watch. If you are interested in hacking with a BLE device, check out the SensorTag[2] from TI. Its a tiny $25 board that contains a whopping six sensors:
* IR temperature Sensor (contactless temperature measurement)
* Humidity Sensor
* Pressure Sensor
* 3-axis Accelerometer
* Gyroscope
* Magnetometer
They also provide example iOS and android source code. You can download the iOS app in the app store.
[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_low_energy
[1] http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/connectivity/bluet...
[2] http://www.ti.com/tool/cc2541dk-sensor
BLE is already used in devices like the Pebble Watch. If you are interested in hacking with a BLE device, check out the SensorTag[2] from TI. Its a tiny $25 board that contains a whopping six sensors:
* IR temperature Sensor (contactless temperature measurement)
* Humidity Sensor
* Pressure Sensor
* 3-axis Accelerometer
* Gyroscope
* Magnetometer
They also provide example iOS and android source code. You can download the iOS app in the app store.
[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_low_energy
[1] http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/connectivity/bluet...
[2] http://www.ti.com/tool/cc2541dk-sensor
Useful product, although I'm dismayed its not a device that can build a point cloud of the whole room yet (and use said point cloud for rendering on a mobile device, as well as high-resolution measurements).
Look what tech innovation has done to my expectations of products :(
Room scanning point cloud with Kinect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhg3_ZgRK68
Boiler Room Point Cloud: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1l0X46rOAU
Point cloud of living room: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6eRG3Q27Lw
Look what tech innovation has done to my expectations of products :(
Room scanning point cloud with Kinect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhg3_ZgRK68
Boiler Room Point Cloud: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1l0X46rOAU
Point cloud of living room: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6eRG3Q27Lw
Hey, my name is Toby from Senic.
We're focusing on these simple solutions for the building industry first because they are under really high cost and time pressure and it help them the most.
With our SDK and API, it's a really flexible product. We're already working on integrating it into different robots etc for some of the mentioned functions. If you have any good suggestions, please drop me a line.
Is there an email where we can do that? There isn't one in your profile or on the senic page.
Also your website is being rendered very strangely.
http://snag.gy/wCkIm.jpg http://snag.gy/2PXRW.jpg
Also your website is being rendered very strangely.
http://snag.gy/wCkIm.jpg http://snag.gy/2PXRW.jpg
Please write me a direct email: support(a)senic.com. I will respond asap.
What you're looking for is Matterport: http://matterport.com/ (another YC company)
No image of the product and a preorder button. If this weren't a YC company I'd dismiss it and move on.
Still, the scans seem promising.
Still, the scans seem promising.
If they used a standard Kinect and sold an iPad app, they'd end up selling it for 99 cents because "it's just an app".
But sell a $30 device for $149 and you can make much more money per customer. Much easier to build a sustainable business that way.
But sell a $30 device for $149 and you can make much more money per customer. Much easier to build a sustainable business that way.
This device has better range and better accuracy than kinect(less than 2mm error instead of 5-25mm at 2m distance).
I wonder if you could plop this thing on a cheap pan/tilt device like Galileo (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/449163977/galileo-your-i...)
The device fits all standard tripods. This is a great idea thoug. We will contact the guy from Galileo!
I love this for two reasons.
First, this is a great example of creating a solution for a small yet annoying problem people have just come to live with. Second, I really like that they're creating well-designed tools for a very specific niche of customers. This isn't a general purpose device for mass consumption, but for architects, interior designers and the like -- professionals whose industry, like most other industries, does not get enough attention in the way of high-quality, well-designed, 'sexy' solutions. There are a ton of opportunities to provide similar solutions to other markets. Withings, for example, produces a really well-designed and easy-to-use blood pressure cuff [1].
As for the Senic, I wouldn't get one myself, but my parents, who are frequently fixing and renovating things around their home and dabble in real estate, definitely would.
1. http://withings.com/en/bloodpressuremonitor
First, this is a great example of creating a solution for a small yet annoying problem people have just come to live with. Second, I really like that they're creating well-designed tools for a very specific niche of customers. This isn't a general purpose device for mass consumption, but for architects, interior designers and the like -- professionals whose industry, like most other industries, does not get enough attention in the way of high-quality, well-designed, 'sexy' solutions. There are a ton of opportunities to provide similar solutions to other markets. Withings, for example, produces a really well-designed and easy-to-use blood pressure cuff [1].
As for the Senic, I wouldn't get one myself, but my parents, who are frequently fixing and renovating things around their home and dabble in real estate, definitely would.
1. http://withings.com/en/bloodpressuremonitor
Agreed. This would be enormously useful for vacation rentals and real estate professionals. Add on and partnerships with virtual tour companies would be expansion value.
I clicked through the purchase flow and noticed the "SSL secured" text.
But the homepage is not served via SSL. I assume the actual purchase form submits through SSL, but an active network attacker could change it to submit anywhere they want, and no one would know.
Everyone makes this mistake, because they think of SSL as being just encryption. It's encryption, but it's also integrity. If a page has security-sensitive functionality at all near it, you want integrity, even if the content is public. (Another example: You have a totally static personal site. Why would that possibly demand SSL? Well, say you want to post your GPG public key so people can send you encrypted email. Someone who can intercept mail bound for you might also be able to MITM your site, so you want SSL to ensure people actually get your real key.)
Just serve everything over SSL always, and you won't have to think about this.
But the homepage is not served via SSL. I assume the actual purchase form submits through SSL, but an active network attacker could change it to submit anywhere they want, and no one would know.
Everyone makes this mistake, because they think of SSL as being just encryption. It's encryption, but it's also integrity. If a page has security-sensitive functionality at all near it, you want integrity, even if the content is public. (Another example: You have a totally static personal site. Why would that possibly demand SSL? Well, say you want to post your GPG public key so people can send you encrypted email. Someone who can intercept mail bound for you might also be able to MITM your site, so you want SSL to ensure people actually get your real key.)
Just serve everything over SSL always, and you won't have to think about this.
This project is interesting, and I preordered one because the last time I had to transcribe measurements of a room into modeling software, I was quite frustrated at the time and complexity of the task.
One thing I'm not happy about is that I did not see any information about software currently in compatibility testing or plans to support specific software.
I won't be satisfied if the device is delivered and I can't actually use it for anything other than a simple measurement that my current laser distance meter can perform.
One thing I'm not happy about is that I did not see any information about software currently in compatibility testing or plans to support specific software.
I won't be satisfied if the device is delivered and I can't actually use it for anything other than a simple measurement that my current laser distance meter can perform.
Thanks for pre-ordering one of the devices. We come from the measurement Industry and were struggling with the same problems. We designed Senic to be the most flexible device it could be. We will give out a few apps for iOS and Android that relieve the biggest pain for people (mostly in the building industry) but will keep developing more applications (new apps, integration into existing software, Linux support etc.) If you have any suggestions or questions, please write us. We want to learn as much as possible and make it the best product on the market.
AutoCAD support would be awesome. I have a couple friends who run their own stainless steel fabrication & kitchen install business, and getting salesmen and business owners to give them accurate measurements is a huge pain point for them.
If a wall shifts 1 inch across 20 feet, they can build for that, if they have those measurements. But when they are told to make a sink-with-backsplash square, and there's an ugly gap between it and the wall -- well, reworking that tiny gap is almost as expensive as building the table itself.
If a wall shifts 1 inch across 20 feet, they can build for that, if they have those measurements. But when they are told to make a sink-with-backsplash square, and there's an ugly gap between it and the wall -- well, reworking that tiny gap is almost as expensive as building the table itself.
Awesome. Thanks for the feedback. AutoCAD is in our top 10. A lot of people want to see this integration for various uses.
Also vectorworks for the theatrical crowd!
We're always taking big measurements and bouncing them around to other people, and measuring weird objects and spaces.
We're always taking big measurements and bouncing them around to other people, and measuring weird objects and spaces.
[deleted]
Just preordered three of these for various projects I have in mind/that could take advantage of this, awesome work!
Do you have any idea when more details on the SDK/API will be available?
We will publish a SDK/API preview within the next two weeks. If you send me a quick message to support(a)senic.com, I will make sure you'll be informed.
sounds good but nothing really "new" here leica has similar products http://www.leica-geosystems.com/en/Laser-Distancemeter_5061...., additionally leica has intergrated with autocad, excel etc so you can already do more. I don't know any contractors that work based off sq. footage measurements alone for pricing no matter the type of work. it also looks like it can't be used without another device
I know YC typically gives small investments which works well enough for web startups, but do they give more to hardware companies like Senic that need things like materials, machines and parts?
Nope, all companies receive the same funding (as in base amount + x per founder up to 3)
I'd love to hear about a hardware team's experience in the YC program. Senic, how's it going?
Three months is a really short time for a hardware company which forced us to postpone sleeping until after Demo Day :)
Money wise, it was kind of tough considering the cost for prototyping, 3d printing, flights from Germany etc. But I would say it gets you where you need to be if you're resourceful enough.
It would be cool if it could give you the GPS coordinates of the point your measuring. That should be easy since the phone already has a GPS and a compass right?
yes, that's one of the things that our old customers were missing. Combining there measurements with geo-location, time, other sensors etc.
Love the idea for the professional.
Is there any way to measure less precisely using the iPhone's camera? Something about using the gyroscope to get a depth measurement?
Is there any way to measure less precisely using the iPhone's camera? Something about using the gyroscope to get a depth measurement?
More likely you'd use algorithms based on structure from motion, like in the Kinect. But that's definitely not the target market for these guys.
ya of course. Do you have more details? I'm interested myself.
No, but you should be able to find academic papers in standard databases like EBSCOhost (most major public libraries I've seen have a subscription that you can access by just getting a library card with proof of residency).
Looks like the website wasn't totally ready? The partner logos are all the same, and what does Square have to do with it?
I thought distance meters were already built in in all smartphones using the camera's laser.
Camera's don't have lasers (at least in smartphones).
You could use infrared with two cameras to do depth measurement like the Kinect and the Leap Motion, but I'm unaware of any smartphones currently doing this.
You could use infrared with two cameras to do depth measurement like the Kinect and the Leap Motion, but I'm unaware of any smartphones currently doing this.
How does the autofocus work?
1. Algorithm to evaluate how blurred an image is.
2. Adjust the focus a little bit, is it getting less blurred? Keep going. More blurred? Other direction.
3. Keep adjusting until you find the point where adjusting either way means more blur.
1 is pretty often "how much contrast", which is pretty easy to do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofocus
Passive: Measurement of light
Active: Infrared or ultrasound
Passive: Measurement of light
Active: Infrared or ultrasound
its a passive system where the camera sensor collects image data before the picture is taken and analyzes the image, then activates the focus motor to adjust the focus. No emitter required.
I have always wondered how these devices actually calculate distances. I have experimented with Arduino & Parallax, and I've seen how the resolution of an ultrasonic distance sensor is directly affected by the processor speed -- the processor is merely counting the fractions of a second between sending the ping pulse, and receiving its echo. But a 1 MHz processor can only just count milliseconds. A 16 MHz processor can count only slightly faster. At the room-temperature speed of sound, this gives you a resolution of about 1/29th of an inch, or 1/74th of a centimeter.
In theory, the same should be possible with light -- send a light pulse then count the fractions of a second for it to return. Thinking back to Grace Hopper's Nanosecond [1], a 1mhz processor would have a resolution of hundreds of feet. So these must be using a very small, simple, multi-GHz processor to get a resolution of about 2/15 of an inch.
Unless these devices do their measurement in a completely different way...
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEpsKnWZrJ8