Life is not a conveyor belt(alexwarren.co.uk)
alexwarren.co.uk
Life is not a conveyor belt
http://alexwarren.co.uk/2013/07/08/life-is-not-a-conveyor-belt/
39 comments
I could not disagree more. For me children (first at 27) were the red pill. Before I was a video gaming pop cultured nerd who was too privileged to be really hungry yet too scared of failure to try anything grand. My daughters made me embrace my mediocrity. I do more interesting things now than before even if it is much harder. For me postponing children too achieve something greater is like not having sex because you think it is going to make you like Newton. You either have it in you or you dont.
But, you know, you're priviledged here because you're a guy. For a woman it's not the best idea biologically to start having kids at 40.
For a man aged 40 it is also not the best idea. The risks for children with birth defects increases substantially with older men as well.
[Citation needed]
I was under the impression the drop off for men both progressed slower and was less severe than it was for women.
e.g. a 40 something woman has the same chance of having offspring with Downs Syndrome or other congenital defects as two cousins in their twenties inbreeding, while a 80 year old man with a 20 something woman is still less at risk than both of the aforementioned pairs.
I was under the impression the drop off for men both progressed slower and was less severe than it was for women.
e.g. a 40 something woman has the same chance of having offspring with Downs Syndrome or other congenital defects as two cousins in their twenties inbreeding, while a 80 year old man with a 20 something woman is still less at risk than both of the aforementioned pairs.
As I was typing that comment I was thinking someone is going to ask me for source :-) I dont have a citation, just the class notes from my wifes medical undergraduate classes. Im sure if I did the effort, I could google a study or two for you. Of course it's not just the genetics, but also a woman's ability to carry full term. Younger bodies are better at that. Nevertheless, for someone preoccupied with living life to the fullest, waiting till your older to have children, and increasing the chance for a down syndrome baby is a bit counter productive.
for someone preoccupied with living life to the fullest, waiting till your older to have children, and increasing the chance for a down syndrome baby is a bit counter productive
In what way? Increasing the odds from 1:1000 to 10:1000 in exchange for 20 years of carefree living seems like a pretty good tradeoff to me.
In what way? Increasing the odds from 1:1000 to 10:1000 in exchange for 20 years of carefree living seems like a pretty good tradeoff to me.
How can you even know that it's a good trade off if you haven't had a Down syndrome baby?
It is true how your choices in life make for distinct personalities. I'm not even 30 yet and have a seven year-old. I can't imagine waiting until 40 before having kids. It really depends on what you define "good" as.
It is pretty easy to flip around the "old" label, for instance: some could say a 50 year-old parent seems "old" - now 40 years removed from their 10 year-old child. How many 50 year-olds do you see getting down and dirty with their kids playing and being carefree?
But, seriously, people of any age can be great parents and lots of different people have different goals in life. Some people seek money, some love, some fame, some recognition, knowledge, excitement, stability, fun, etc.
It is pretty easy to flip around the "old" label, for instance: some could say a 50 year-old parent seems "old" - now 40 years removed from their 10 year-old child. How many 50 year-olds do you see getting down and dirty with their kids playing and being carefree?
But, seriously, people of any age can be great parents and lots of different people have different goals in life. Some people seek money, some love, some fame, some recognition, knowledge, excitement, stability, fun, etc.
Some of my best experiences as a parent have come because I started young and had to struggle about which priority in life was most important. It changed who I am. I wouldn't trade the extra time I have to be a father and grand-father for the freedom and flexibility I could have enjoyed. I find deeper joy in the "boring" slog of being a dad.
Not quite sure what the point is... wake up sheeple?
You might see me with my degrees, career, dog, child, wife and house and think I'm just another conveyor-belter, but hopefully one day you will realise that every person has a unique story to tell. Even the ones who might seem boring to you.
You don't have to make a grand gesture of differentness in your clothing, music taste, beliefs or lifestyle to actually be different. We are all different by our very nature.
In fact, proclaiming your differentness so loudly could be viewed as more oppressive than seeming to 'conform' to your perceived conveyor-belt.
Life without progress is stagnant. We each choose our own path. It just happens that there are some broad trends amongst the things humans value; like company and security. Marriage, kids, a stable career and a house go a long way towards satisfying those needs. And, without wishing to patronise, those needs do become more acutely felt as you get older.
You might see me with my degrees, career, dog, child, wife and house and think I'm just another conveyor-belter, but hopefully one day you will realise that every person has a unique story to tell. Even the ones who might seem boring to you.
You don't have to make a grand gesture of differentness in your clothing, music taste, beliefs or lifestyle to actually be different. We are all different by our very nature.
In fact, proclaiming your differentness so loudly could be viewed as more oppressive than seeming to 'conform' to your perceived conveyor-belt.
Life without progress is stagnant. We each choose our own path. It just happens that there are some broad trends amongst the things humans value; like company and security. Marriage, kids, a stable career and a house go a long way towards satisfying those needs. And, without wishing to patronise, those needs do become more acutely felt as you get older.
Yes, if you go into detail, all people are different. But overall, most people aren't, at least not in a way that matters.
But I have to admit, those who make the difference aren't those who "proclaim their differentness".
But I have to admit, those who make the difference aren't those who "proclaim their differentness".
Yes, if you go into detail, all people are different. But overall, most people aren't, at least not in a way that matters.
That reminded me of this:
"I have expressed my strong interest in the mass of the people; and this is founded, not on their usefulness to the community, so much as on what they are in themselves. Indeed every man, in every condition, is great. It is only our own diseased sight which makes him little. A man is great as a man, be he where or what he may. The grandeur of his nature turns to insignificance all outward distinctions."
-- William Ellery Channing
That reminded me of this:
"I have expressed my strong interest in the mass of the people; and this is founded, not on their usefulness to the community, so much as on what they are in themselves. Indeed every man, in every condition, is great. It is only our own diseased sight which makes him little. A man is great as a man, be he where or what he may. The grandeur of his nature turns to insignificance all outward distinctions."
-- William Ellery Channing
I think OP should take a look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
I'm aware of the hierarchy - not sure how it adds to or detracts from my post though? Do you think we inevitably progress up the pyramid as we get older - because I don't think age or progression up a career ladder is particularly correlated with fulfilment of those needs.
I don't understand how you can not see a correlation.
The jobs 'higher up' the ladder are generally better paid, with better benefits and are more enjoyable.
If you're working 10 hour shifts with two kids and a tiny flat, you don't have much time or energy left to explore self-actualisation. You are living day-to-day, in a perpetual state of tiredness, stress and worry. The only way 'out' is to get a better job. Then you will feel pride, confidence, etc etc - most of the things on the hierarchy.
I can't help but think that you have never experienced poverty. That naivety is the only way I can understand why you'd think that "progression up the career ladder" is not correlated with fulfilment of Maslow's needs (or more broadly, the basic ability to live your life the way you want. To live freely.)
The jobs 'higher up' the ladder are generally better paid, with better benefits and are more enjoyable.
If you're working 10 hour shifts with two kids and a tiny flat, you don't have much time or energy left to explore self-actualisation. You are living day-to-day, in a perpetual state of tiredness, stress and worry. The only way 'out' is to get a better job. Then you will feel pride, confidence, etc etc - most of the things on the hierarchy.
I can't help but think that you have never experienced poverty. That naivety is the only way I can understand why you'd think that "progression up the career ladder" is not correlated with fulfilment of Maslow's needs (or more broadly, the basic ability to live your life the way you want. To live freely.)
I can't spot the bit in my post where I said I knew what the answer to poverty was - but is the only option for people in poverty really to wait for a promotion?
For people who are not in poverty, which I presume includes most of us here idly browsing Hacker News, do we descend down that hierarchy of needs as soon as we step off the conveyor belt?
I think there are more paths to fulfilment than you realise.
For people who are not in poverty, which I presume includes most of us here idly browsing Hacker News, do we descend down that hierarchy of needs as soon as we step off the conveyor belt?
I think there are more paths to fulfilment than you realise.
You're grasping for an alternative reality where people don't need to work. But without a concrete suggestion it's just wishful thinking.
I think the fact that every large society on the planet ever has been based on this model is important.
> is the only option for people in poverty really to wait for a promotion
You're overstating my position. Don't wait for an opportunity; create one. But yes, pretty much. There is simply no responsible alternative. You can't run off into the wilderness and fend for yourself. You have to live inside the system we have created. It's really not that oppressive. You should try it.
> I think there are more paths to fulfilment than you realise.
I think the paths that you see as one are many.
edit:
> do we descend down that hierarchy of needs as soon as we step off the conveyor belt?
No, we don't. Ah I see, so what you're advocating is retirement? I think we agree!
I think the fact that every large society on the planet ever has been based on this model is important.
> is the only option for people in poverty really to wait for a promotion
You're overstating my position. Don't wait for an opportunity; create one. But yes, pretty much. There is simply no responsible alternative. You can't run off into the wilderness and fend for yourself. You have to live inside the system we have created. It's really not that oppressive. You should try it.
> I think there are more paths to fulfilment than you realise.
I think the paths that you see as one are many.
edit:
> do we descend down that hierarchy of needs as soon as we step off the conveyor belt?
No, we don't. Ah I see, so what you're advocating is retirement? I think we agree!
Never said people don't need to work, but they should think about the kinds of work they want to do and the kind of life they want they lead, and creatively consider all the opportunities that are available to them. In fact that's pretty much all I'm saying, really.
I completely agree with that.
You do seem to be pushing hard against something though. It comes off as both arrogant and naive, and leads to misinterpretation.
For someone who's just saying "consider your options", it sure seems like you think you're saying a lot more than that.
What, exactly, is wrong with new kitchens?
You do seem to be pushing hard against something though. It comes off as both arrogant and naive, and leads to misinterpretation.
For someone who's just saying "consider your options", it sure seems like you think you're saying a lot more than that.
What, exactly, is wrong with new kitchens?
I was going to mention that myself actually.
Every person I know, in their 20's, could have written the same post as OP... Myself included. Now they are all married with children... Myself included.
Really? As a person in my 20s, I have a reasonable number of friends who have plans of getting a house, spouse and children; many have had them since their teens.
Of course, nowadays those plans are less taken for granted, considering many can't even get jobs.
Of course, nowadays those plans are less taken for granted, considering many can't even get jobs.
In my 20's, most of my friends and I were in one touring rock and roll band or another. A bunch of societal malcontents, dropping out of college and trying to do something else. Maybe that's not terribly common, but I really didn't know many people who pined for the family life... but biological urges are hard to fight... Not just the urge to procreate, but the urge to raise and nurture kids. The urge to nest and create stability. It's not for everyone, but it IS for most people. Not because of some societal constraint, but because of biological ones. Societal constructs just helps us to fulfill those desires more easily.
It's regret limitation. You can always buy things whenever, but if you want to see your kids grow up and not be too old to play then you NEED to have the kid in your 30's at the latest. Once you pass that point you can never go back.
You're not gonna live forever and you will change your opinions regularly throughout life. Using your time wisely, and investing in a solid future is the 'safe' regret minimising strategy.
You're not gonna live forever and you will change your opinions regularly throughout life. Using your time wisely, and investing in a solid future is the 'safe' regret minimising strategy.
You can't escape the conveyor belt, whether you end up with children or you end up alone or something completely different.
You are always part of a much bigger group than you might think. If nothing else physics will take it's toll and you as you get older.
You are always part of a much bigger group than you might think. If nothing else physics will take it's toll and you as you get older.
Lots of things in life seem ordinary to the point of tediousness. Marriage, the birth of a child, recognition on the job etc. These things happen to most everyone at one point or another.
I'm here to tell you that these things can be quite extraordinary when they happen to you.
Even if everyone in the line rides the same coaster, the plunge is still a thrill.
I'm here to tell you that these things can be quite extraordinary when they happen to you.
Even if everyone in the line rides the same coaster, the plunge is still a thrill.
Utterly extraordinary. Watching my daughter play in my friends' gardens made me want to move out of the town and into the suburbs, so she can have space for a paddling pool. I'll buy a bigger, duller car for her and her impending sibling, without thinking twice about it.
I'm not sure how applicable the key stage point is here. Children generally have little to no exposure to the fact they are part of a key stage or how that affects them until they get to the GCSE/A Level stage where clearly it's impossible to not feel the exams looming. Key stages are more a strategy thing for DfE/Local Authorities.
There are infinitely many different lifestyles you can live that still involve employment, houses, marriage and children.
I would've expected somewhat differently inclined comments from the hackernews community.
Instead, everybody is just saying the same thing expressed in different wording - safety.
His point is not to bypass the entire family, house aspect of your life. The point is to not move along life as if you have no choice but to move to the next "stage".
Progress is not moving up the stages - getting a house, getting a family, a dog, a kid. Those are just arbitrary checkpoints defined to make you feel like you're making something of your life. The american dream, eh? :)
Progress is to construct a life not defined by limits and boundaries. Living it to the fullest - travel, do great big, inspirational things.
If you choose to have kids when you're 20, you are almost by definition limiting your life only to be somebody who takes care of your kids and works a stable job with a stable family(a stable car, a stable dog, a stable bed to sleep in, a stable tv and a stable view of the world). In other words, inexperienced and short-sighted.
Instead, everybody is just saying the same thing expressed in different wording - safety.
His point is not to bypass the entire family, house aspect of your life. The point is to not move along life as if you have no choice but to move to the next "stage".
Progress is not moving up the stages - getting a house, getting a family, a dog, a kid. Those are just arbitrary checkpoints defined to make you feel like you're making something of your life. The american dream, eh? :)
Progress is to construct a life not defined by limits and boundaries. Living it to the fullest - travel, do great big, inspirational things.
If you choose to have kids when you're 20, you are almost by definition limiting your life only to be somebody who takes care of your kids and works a stable job with a stable family(a stable car, a stable dog, a stable bed to sleep in, a stable tv and a stable view of the world). In other words, inexperienced and short-sighted.
I'm a big fan of substituting the word "and" into choices that traditionally involve an "or". "House Wife & Kids or Travel & Happy Instability" is the latest one for me, and it seems to work just fine doing both thus far.
In this case, I think the crux of facing that choice at age 20 is that you pretty much only get to pick one for financial reasons. By around 35, a fella can have enough banked away to happily do both at once.
In this case, I think the crux of facing that choice at age 20 is that you pretty much only get to pick one for financial reasons. By around 35, a fella can have enough banked away to happily do both at once.
> everybody is just saying the same thing expressed in different wording - safety.
There's this recurring theme in what you and OP are saying, that you think buying a house, getting married, having kids, building a career is somehow 'safe' or 'boring' or that those that do it are 'risk-averse' (or worse, are 'robots', or 'sheep' or 'followers', like you have the answer and everyone else is blind).
How is it safe or not risky to commit the next 20 years of my life to caring for my child? Or to commit to providing for my wife through a secure well paid job? And I love my life, it's fascinating. Rarely a boring moment.
Or I can travel. Woo. Take lots of photos. Brag about how out-there I am. Inspirational things huh?
I agree that one shouldn't live life going through the motions. But take care that you don't see the 2.4 kids and assume too much about the person. What's the use of all your long-sighted experience if you're too quick to judge people?
I say again, each of us is a fascinating individual. You and your ilk seem to dismiss some life choices as less worthy - even going so far as declare them incorrect.
Is a mortgage and a dog and a kid 'limited'? I don't see why it has to be. Am I limited because I can't get up and move to Canada on a whim? I am free in myself. More than that I am building something greater than myself; my family. I've chosen stability and responsibility over the ephemeral pleasures of whimsy.
That is truly inspirational, isn't it?
There's this recurring theme in what you and OP are saying, that you think buying a house, getting married, having kids, building a career is somehow 'safe' or 'boring' or that those that do it are 'risk-averse' (or worse, are 'robots', or 'sheep' or 'followers', like you have the answer and everyone else is blind).
How is it safe or not risky to commit the next 20 years of my life to caring for my child? Or to commit to providing for my wife through a secure well paid job? And I love my life, it's fascinating. Rarely a boring moment.
Or I can travel. Woo. Take lots of photos. Brag about how out-there I am. Inspirational things huh?
I agree that one shouldn't live life going through the motions. But take care that you don't see the 2.4 kids and assume too much about the person. What's the use of all your long-sighted experience if you're too quick to judge people?
I say again, each of us is a fascinating individual. You and your ilk seem to dismiss some life choices as less worthy - even going so far as declare them incorrect.
Is a mortgage and a dog and a kid 'limited'? I don't see why it has to be. Am I limited because I can't get up and move to Canada on a whim? I am free in myself. More than that I am building something greater than myself; my family. I've chosen stability and responsibility over the ephemeral pleasures of whimsy.
That is truly inspirational, isn't it?
> If you choose to have kids when you're 20, you are almost by definition limiting your life only to be somebody who takes care of your kids and works a stable job with a stable family(a stable car, a stable dog, a stable bed to sleep in, a stable tv and a stable view of the world). In other words, inexperienced and short-sighted.
You're missing the point of children - some people experience intense joy from raising their children.
You're missing the point of children - some people experience intense joy from raising their children.
That may be true. A lot of people, however, choose to have kids only because they think kids will bring joy to their life, not the other way around, which makes for a terrible relationship dynamic.
In other words, a couple becomes bored of their stable life. They think - oh, maybe a kid will make our lives more exciting.
In other words, a couple becomes bored of their stable life. They think - oh, maybe a kid will make our lives more exciting.
You're missing the point of drugs - some people experience intense joy from taking drugs.
It's not too surprising really - the comments are similar to those I got on my blog post from a couple of weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5951536 - although it is strange how "conventional" a lot of HN commenters are, you'd think we were more of an ambitious entrepreneurial lot really...
"I would love for all of those years of school to teach kids these lessons instead: Don’t follow orders, don’t blindly copy what others are doing, and always keep your wits about you."
This, to me, is the essence of Education, or at least what it should be - equip future generations with the ability to think critically, to become more adaptable by developing themselves and their peers in the process.
In most of the countries I know of, School systems are self-fulfilling jokes. You have teachers sandwiched between layers upon layers of administration and the kids' parents. You have a lot of parents who've dumped all their educational responsibilities onto the schools. You have the administrations whose main purpose seems to be meeting stats. And after all that, you have the kids, awkwardly categorized by age, pushed through hoops with no clear purpose except to pass tests. This costs a tremendous amount of resources (not just talking about money here), and for what results?
We seem to live in an age where we think everything has to be, and is worth measuring. I believe the "Level up" system is a result of that, it makes it much easier to assess people's worth, whatever the hell that worth may be. Ironically (and sadly), the only way to get out of this is real Education, one that promotes curiosity and self-growth for the sake of it (and eventually for the greater good).
This, to me, is the essence of Education, or at least what it should be - equip future generations with the ability to think critically, to become more adaptable by developing themselves and their peers in the process.
In most of the countries I know of, School systems are self-fulfilling jokes. You have teachers sandwiched between layers upon layers of administration and the kids' parents. You have a lot of parents who've dumped all their educational responsibilities onto the schools. You have the administrations whose main purpose seems to be meeting stats. And after all that, you have the kids, awkwardly categorized by age, pushed through hoops with no clear purpose except to pass tests. This costs a tremendous amount of resources (not just talking about money here), and for what results?
We seem to live in an age where we think everything has to be, and is worth measuring. I believe the "Level up" system is a result of that, it makes it much easier to assess people's worth, whatever the hell that worth may be. Ironically (and sadly), the only way to get out of this is real Education, one that promotes curiosity and self-growth for the sake of it (and eventually for the greater good).
Part of the problem with viewing life as a conveyor belt is that you build up expectations of what's ahead. I think that one of the OP's points was that you may be very disappointed (even feel a bit cheated) to learn that happiness is not inevitable, even if you follow all the required steps. So instead, don't just follow the steps. Question, think, break 'rules' if you have to. Make your own choices and don't just follow the prescribed path. You won't get a second chance.
They seem "old" to me, even though they're often several years younger than me. As though they've lived a lot more life than me, but not the "good" parts of life. I can't imagine how tough it must be to raise a family on an entry-level job, and simultaneously try to progress your way out of that entry-level-ness without the ability to ever roll the dice and not have to worry about feeding anybody else but yourself if things don't work out. Or the ability to put it all on hold and piss off to backpack around Southeast Asia for a year. You can see the shadow of that still on a lot of folks like that, even 20 years on.
It never occurred to me back then how good a decision it was not to get married and start a family right away. Now, raising kids with 20 years worth of leveling up behind me and the resources to do it "right", I think I'm going to have it a lot easier.